Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[peonminer]

Y U OPST OLD NEWRS

[1714244477]

1714244477

[1714244477]

1714244477

[1714244477]

1714244477

[1714244477]

1714244477

[JimboToronto]

Good morning Bitcoinland.

Still hovering around $360. That should change soon... or not.

Glad I'm not paying margin interest while we wait. There are no fees for holding.

[tomothy]

Why use BTC when you can just SETL...?

...for less?

Sorry - couldn't resist. AAR, looks interesting enough to learn more about. The article you link talks about it being Bitcoin, but I can't quite imagine GS would do that. Perhaps it is actually some permissioned blockchain? 'Twould be fun to watch some significant miner to throw their hash power that way just to see what might happen, no?

I was hoping for that joke! Yeah, I was wondering how you would prevent 3rd party mining interaction/manipulation/attacks. I guess they could have some sort of proprietary asics and only these registered device are permitted to secure their blockchain but we've seen how quickly code and devices have been adapted for mining... I'm not sure if they could ensure a closed network without it really just being a database? 


http://www.businessinsider.com/goldman-sachs-the-blockchain-can-change-well-everything-2015-12?r=UK&IR=T

Boroujerdi says: "Bitcoin was just the opening act, with the Blockchain ready to take center stage."

Despite Boroujerdi's seeming runaway optimism, he does note that there are some drawbacks. One worry is the potential cost of developing and maintaining the network. Another is the lack of a regulatory framework. And a third is concerns over the capacity of the blockchain.

I guess the real question is how much hash power they would have to throw at SETLcoin to avoid, prevent, mitigate, a possible 51% attack and how that compares to being cost effective to just using BTC or a different altcoin.

I think ultimately, the banks will steal/co-opt/centralize bitcoin, make it their own, force the price up, and push the cypherpunks/anarchists to alt coins and I think the miners and hodlers will let this happen because $ /shrug.   I just have issues seeing how you can have a blockchain function without a token or maintenance device; maybe something along the lines of peercoin & nubits, but it didn't sound like it based on referencing asics and fpgs

[ChartBuddy]

Coin



Explanation

[JorgeStolfi]

I think ultimately, the banks will steal/co-opt/centralize bitcoin, make it their own, force the price up, and push the cypherpunks/anarchists to alt coins and I think the miners and hodlers will let this happen because $ /shrug.   I just have issues seeing how you can have a blockchain function without a token or maintenance device; maybe something along the lines of peercoin & nubits, but it didn't sound like it based on referencing asics and fpgs

They have no use for bitcoin or any other cryptocurrencies. If they had, they would use some closed centralized "currency" like Ripple.

The bitcoin blockchain is a lousy and terribly inefficient data structure.  It is used in bitcoin because it was the only structure that Satoshi could think of that prevented double-spend and could be reliably maintained by a distributed swarm of uncoordinated anonymous volunteer miners.  The bitcoin system uses the bitcoin currency to motivate those volunteers, through fees and block rewards, because it has no other way of rewarding them.  However, the banks will hardly want to use uncoordinated anonymous volunteers to process their billion-dollar transactions. So they will not need bitcoin to reward them. So, after the hype deflates, they will realize that there are better data structures and protocols for their problems -- and that they are already using them.

[JayJuanGee]

I think ultimately, the banks will steal/co-opt/centralize bitcoin, make it their own, force the price up, and push the cypherpunks/anarchists to alt coins and I think the miners and hodlers will let this happen because $ /shrug.   I just have issues seeing how you can have a blockchain function without a token or maintenance device; maybe something along the lines of peercoin & nubits, but it didn't sound like it based on referencing asics and fpgs

They have no use for bitcoin or any other cryptocurrencies. If they had, they would use some closed centralized "currency" like Ripple.

The bitcoin blockchain is a lousy and terribly inefficient data structure.  It is used in bitcoin because it was the only structure that Satoshi could think of that prevented double-spend and could be reliably maintained by a distributed swarm of uncoordinated anonymous volunteer miners.  The bitcoin system uses the bitcoin currency to motivate those volunteers, through fees and block rewards, because it has no other way of rewarding them.  However, the banks will hardly want to use uncoordinated anonymous volunteers to process their billion-dollar transactions. So they will not need bitcoin to reward them. So, after the hype deflates, they will realize that there are better data structures and protocols for their problems -- and that they are already using them.

The tone and substance of your comments come off as skeptical, but far from academic...

You appear to be way too emotionally attach to a goal of denigrating bitcoin that you fail and/or refuse to recognize benefits of peer to peer validations of transactions and accordingly you present your argument(s) in a very non convincing manner.

Even though you may be correct that in the beginning banks will likely hesitate to entrust their transactions to the bitcoin blockchain, with the passage of time, the smarter "banking" players are likely going to come to realize that bitcoin's blockchain can be utilized to their benefit for a much smaller cost and with better security than their own centrally controlled and likely half-baked and likely much more costly "blockchain" imitation alternatives.

[ssmc2]

I think ultimately, the banks will steal/co-opt/centralize bitcoin, make it their own, force the price up, and push the cypherpunks/anarchists to alt coins and I think the miners and hodlers will let this happen because $ /shrug.   I just have issues seeing how you can have a blockchain function without a token or maintenance device; maybe something along the lines of peercoin & nubits, but it didn't sound like it based on referencing asics and fpgs

They have no use for bitcoin or any other cryptocurrencies. If they had, they would use some closed centralized "currency" like Ripple.

The bitcoin blockchain is a lousy and terribly inefficient data structure.  It is used in bitcoin because it was the only structure that Satoshi could think of that prevented double-spend and could be reliably maintained by a distributed swarm of uncoordinated anonymous volunteer miners.  The bitcoin system uses the bitcoin currency to motivate those volunteers, through fees and block rewards, because it has no other way of rewarding them.  However, the banks will hardly want to use uncoordinated anonymous volunteers to process their billion-dollar transactions. So they will not need bitcoin to reward them. So, after the hype deflates, they will realize that there are better data structures and protocols for their problems -- and that they are already using them.

The tone and substance of your comments come off as skeptical, but far from academic...

You appear to be way too emotionally attach to a goal of denigrating bitcoin that you fail and/or refuse to recognize benefits of peer to peer validations of transactions and accordingly you present your argument(s) in a very non convincing manner.

Even though you may be correct that in the beginning banks will likely hesitate to entrust their transactions to the bitcoin blockchain, with the passage of time, the smarter "banking" players are likely going to come to realize that bitcoin's blockchain can be utilized to their benefit for a much smaller cost and with better security than their own centrally controlled and likely half-baked and likely much more costly "blockchain" imitation alternatives.

Keep an eye on USAA. They will be one of the banks at the forefront.

[adamstgBit]

I think ultimately, the banks will steal/co-opt/centralize bitcoin, make it their own, force the price up, and push the cypherpunks/anarchists to alt coins and I think the miners and hodlers will let this happen because $ /shrug.   I just have issues seeing how you can have a blockchain function without a token or maintenance device; maybe something along the lines of peercoin & nubits, but it didn't sound like it based on referencing asics and fpgs

They have no use for bitcoin or any other cryptocurrencies. If they had, they would use some closed centralized "currency" like Ripple.

The bitcoin blockchain is a lousy and terribly inefficient data structure.  It is used in bitcoin because it was the only structure that Satoshi could think of that prevented double-spend and could be reliably maintained by a distributed swarm of uncoordinated anonymous volunteer miners.  The bitcoin system uses the bitcoin currency to motivate those volunteers, through fees and block rewards, because it has no other way of rewarding them.  However, the banks will hardly want to use uncoordinated anonymous volunteers to process their billion-dollar transactions. So they will not need bitcoin to reward them. So, after the hype deflates, they will realize that there are better data structures and protocols for their problems -- and that they are already using them.

banks are confused as fuck.

there is no point to what they are doing with blockchain, as Jorge points out the structure of Bitcoin is inefficient. the only reason its cool is because its the only way to get trustless TX verification.
there is no point to use a blockchain type database if your going to only allow registered trusted users to play with it.
they were told blockchain tech was the future, but they didn't understand why.

now they are building a system thats records things like "trust me, I debited account #1444 10000$ and credited #5559 10000$ on my closed source system "

as if irrefutable proof that BankA told BankB about a TX it supposedly did, means anything.


next thing you know  going to be like " what do you mean there's no physical gold in vault, its record on our blockchain!  blockchain tech is flawed!"

[ChartBuddy]

Coin



Explanation

[jbreher]

The bitcoin blockchain is a lousy and terribly inefficient data structure. 

For 'permissioned' cases, I would agree with you.

However, if your use case is a trustless public ledger, it is absolutely the best data structure of which mankind is aware. Efficiency is only meaningful in relative terms when comparing alternatives. Accordingly, for the trustless public ledger use case, it is the most efficient  available.

[jbreher]

The bitcoin blockchain is a lousy and terribly inefficient data structure. 

For 'permissioned' cases, I would agree with you.

However, if your use case is a trustless public ledger, it is absolutely the best data structure of which mankind is aware. Efficiency is only meaningful in relative terms when comparing alternatives. Accordingly, for the trustless public ledger use case, it is the most efficient  available.

He's talking about *banks using it*
So yeah, you are right, in the same sense as "a revolver is the best handgun for driving nails."
Yes, it is, but why drive nails with a handgun? Use a frickin' hammer.

Well, yeah.

Except that every significant financial institution is looking at 'the blockchain', trying to figure out how they're gonna use it. Which, by the way, was the topic of this sidebar to begin with.

[adamstgBit]

The bitcoin blockchain is a lousy and terribly inefficient data structure.  

For 'permissioned' cases, I would agree with you.

However, if your use case is a trustless public ledger, it is absolutely the best data structure of which mankind is aware. Efficiency is only meaningful in relative terms when comparing alternatives. Accordingly, for the trustless public ledger use case, it is the most efficient  available.

He's talking about *banks using it*
So yeah, you are right, in the same sense as "a revolver is the best handgun for driving nails."
Yes, it is, but why drive nails with a handgun? Use a frickin' hammer.

Well, yeah.

Except that every significant financial institution is looking at 'the blockchain', trying to figure out how if they're gonna use it. Which, by the way, was the topic of this sidebar to begin with.

Fixed.
Also, this is what most financial institutions are looking at.
Blockchain at this point is a buzzword, as meaningful as 'cloud' used to be -- a way to make your investors think you're licking the bleeding edge.

sad but true.

unbelievably they claim this roundabout messy way to record data shared amongst themselves is somehow a huge improvement on what they had before, WTF did they have before, did they rely on word of mouth to clear wire transfers?

[ssmc2]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3vg06a/official_release_rootstock_white_paper/

[jbreher]

Blockchain at this point is a buzzword, as meaningful as 'cloud' used to be -- a way to make your investors think you're licking the bleeding edge.

*Seriously, if you think "blockchain" isn't just a buzzword, explain the difference between "permissioned blockchain" and "distributed database."

::le sigh:: looks like we've come full circle - the following is what we were discussing:

http://www.tradersmagazine.com/news/brokerage/goldman-sachs-files-patent-to-settle-securities-in-bitcoin-114721-1.html

I mean, I know you're new here, but...  *cough*

[GreekGeek]

Jorge you are an uber-troll!!

The whole point of blockchain(s) is trust-less-ness
sure banks already use an internal "blockchain" that more and more people trust less and less (guess why... )

Now a good and robust blockchain only needs alot of computing power
Q1  and what is the best way to convince people to offer their computers power to the network?
answer: to get payed by doing so!!!!   (aka miners)

Q2   what is currently the best blockchain to trust?
answer:  Bitcoins blockchain , (because it has the biggest hashrate)

simple as that...

now go teach , because you know what they are saying about those who can't do...




 

[tomothy]

Sorry, I should have simply included the patent link.
I hope their patent is denied but I'm not surprised they filed. Maybe coinbase will do something like tesla :/

http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PG01&s1=20150332395&OS=20150332395&RS=20150332395?p=cite_Brian_Cohen_or_Bitcoin_Magazine


[0049] The teachings of the software and/or hardware facilities provided herein can be applied to other systems, not necessarily the system described herein. The elements and acts of the various embodiments described herein can be combined to provide further embodiments.

[0050] These and other changes can be made to the software and/or hardware facilities in light of the above Detailed Description. While the above description details certain embodiments of the technology and describes the best mode contemplated, no matter how detailed the above appears in text, the described technology can be practiced in many ways. The described technology may vary considerably in its implementation details, while still being encompassed by the technology disclosed herein. As noted above, particular terminology used when describing certain features or aspects of the described technology facilities should not be taken to imply that the terminology is being redefined herein to be restricted to any specific characteristics, features, or aspects of the technology with which that terminology is associated. In general, the terms used in the following claims should not be construed to limit the described technology facilities to the specific embodiments disclosed in the specification, unless the above Detailed Description section explicitly defines such terms. Accordingly, the actual scope of the described technology encompasses not only the disclosed embodiments, but also all equivalent ways of practicing or implementing the described technology.

[0051] To reduce the number of claims, certain aspects of the invention are presented below in certain claim forms, but the applicant contemplates the various aspects of the invention in any number of claim forms. Accordingly, the applicant reserves the right to pursue additional claims after filing this application to pursue such additional claim forms, in either this application or in a continuing application.

So, I know I don't know much about patents, but it sounds like this would also act as a patent on bitcoin almost? just simply changing the name...?

[ChartBuddy]

Coin



Explanation

[JayJuanGee]

I think ultimately, the banks will steal/co-opt/centralize bitcoin, make it their own, force the price up, and push the cypherpunks/anarchists to alt coins and I think the miners and hodlers will let this happen because $ /shrug.   I just have issues seeing how you can have a blockchain function without a token or maintenance device; maybe something along the lines of peercoin & nubits, but it didn't sound like it based on referencing asics and fpgs

They have no use for bitcoin or any other cryptocurrencies. If they had, they would use some closed centralized "currency" like Ripple.

The bitcoin blockchain is a lousy and terribly inefficient data structure.  It is used in bitcoin because it was the only structure that Satoshi could think of that prevented double-spend and could be reliably maintained by a distributed swarm of uncoordinated anonymous volunteer miners.  The bitcoin system uses the bitcoin currency to motivate those volunteers, through fees and block rewards, because it has no other way of rewarding them.  However, the banks will hardly want to use uncoordinated anonymous volunteers to process their billion-dollar transactions. So they will not need bitcoin to reward them. So, after the hype deflates, they will realize that there are better data structures and protocols for their problems -- and that they are already using them.

The tone and substance of your comments come off as skeptical, but far from academic...

You appear to be way too emotionally attach to a goal of denigrating bitcoin that you fail and/or refuse to recognize benefits of peer to peer validations of transactions and accordingly you present your argument(s) in a very non convincing manner.

Even though you may be correct that in the beginning banks will likely hesitate to entrust their transactions to the bitcoin blockchain, with the passage of time, the smarter "banking" players are likely going to come to realize that bitcoin's blockchain can be utilized to their benefit for a much smaller cost and with better security than their own centrally controlled and likely half-baked and likely much more costly "blockchain" imitation alternatives.

Keep an eye on USAA. They will be one of the banks at the forefront.

What are they gonna do? 

Incorporate bitcoin blockchain into their creation, or do their own half-assed implementation of something that is not quite a bitcoin blockchain?

[Elwar]

I think ultimately, the banks will steal/co-opt/centralize bitcoin, make it their own, force the price up, and push the cypherpunks/anarchists to alt coins and I think the miners and hodlers will let this happen because $ /shrug.   I just have issues seeing how you can have a blockchain function without a token or maintenance device; maybe something along the lines of peercoin & nubits, but it didn't sound like it based on referencing asics and fpgs

They have no use for bitcoin or any other cryptocurrencies. If they had, they would use some closed centralized "currency" like Ripple.

The bitcoin blockchain is a lousy and terribly inefficient data structure.  It is used in bitcoin because it was the only structure that Satoshi could think of that prevented double-spend and could be reliably maintained by a distributed swarm of uncoordinated anonymous volunteer miners.  The bitcoin system uses the bitcoin currency to motivate those volunteers, through fees and block rewards, because it has no other way of rewarding them.  However, the banks will hardly want to use uncoordinated anonymous volunteers to process their billion-dollar transactions. So they will not need bitcoin to reward them. So, after the hype deflates, they will realize that there are better data structures and protocols for their problems -- and that they are already using them.

The tone and substance of your comments come off as skeptical, but far from academic...

You appear to be way too emotionally attach to a goal of denigrating bitcoin that you fail and/or refuse to recognize benefits of peer to peer validations of transactions and accordingly you present your argument(s) in a very non convincing manner.

Even though you may be correct that in the beginning banks will likely hesitate to entrust their transactions to the bitcoin blockchain, with the passage of time, the smarter "banking" players are likely going to come to realize that bitcoin's blockchain can be utilized to their benefit for a much smaller cost and with better security than their own centrally controlled and likely half-baked and likely much more costly "blockchain" imitation alternatives.

Keep an eye on USAA. They will be one of the banks at the forefront.

What are they gonna do? 

Incorporate bitcoin blockchain into their creation, or do their own half-assed implementation of something that is not quite a bitcoin blockchain?

Or team up with Coinbase to offer banking services such as direct deposit and debit cards using your Bitcoin balance.

[ssmc2]

I think ultimately, the banks will steal/co-opt/centralize bitcoin, make it their own, force the price up, and push the cypherpunks/anarchists to alt coins and I think the miners and hodlers will let this happen because $ /shrug.   I just have issues seeing how you can have a blockchain function without a token or maintenance device; maybe something along the lines of peercoin & nubits, but it didn't sound like it based on referencing asics and fpgs

They have no use for bitcoin or any other cryptocurrencies. If they had, they would use some closed centralized "currency" like Ripple.

The bitcoin blockchain is a lousy and terribly inefficient data structure.  It is used in bitcoin because it was the only structure that Satoshi could think of that prevented double-spend and could be reliably maintained by a distributed swarm of uncoordinated anonymous volunteer miners.  The bitcoin system uses the bitcoin currency to motivate those volunteers, through fees and block rewards, because it has no other way of rewarding them.  However, the banks will hardly want to use uncoordinated anonymous volunteers to process their billion-dollar transactions. So they will not need bitcoin to reward them. So, after the hype deflates, they will realize that there are better data structures and protocols for their problems -- and that they are already using them.

The tone and substance of your comments come off as skeptical, but far from academic...

You appear to be way too emotionally attach to a goal of denigrating bitcoin that you fail and/or refuse to recognize benefits of peer to peer validations of transactions and accordingly you present your argument(s) in a very non convincing manner.

Even though you may be correct that in the beginning banks will likely hesitate to entrust their transactions to the bitcoin blockchain, with the passage of time, the smarter "banking" players are likely going to come to realize that bitcoin's blockchain can be utilized to their benefit for a much smaller cost and with better security than their own centrally controlled and likely half-baked and likely much more costly "blockchain" imitation alternatives.

Keep an eye on USAA. They will be one of the banks at the forefront.

What are they gonna do?  

Incorporate bitcoin blockchain into their creation, or do their own half-assed implementation of something that is not quite a bitcoin blockchain?

Or team up with Coinbase to offer banking services such as direct deposit and debit cards using your Bitcoin balance.

Right. I wasn't implying they would try to create their own BS private chain. They are tech leaders within the financial services space and most likely will be one of the first to incorporate real deal numero uno BTC Blockchain. Maybe they buy out Coinbase...maybe they create the first bank sidechain...who knows. But yeah, keep an eye on them.