Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[Biodom]

.. so it seems to me that shaving off some lil corns along the way or just consuming goods and services here and there does not really seem like a bad thing.. including the considerations of consuming some other kinds of investments if anything strikes the fancy of the HODLER who happens to have way more than 90%+ in bitcoin, largely due to BTC price appreciation rather than being irresponsible in any kind of way related to how such BTC HODLer had acquired such BTC in the earlier years.  

Yes, but it is just strategic thinking 101.
For a more advanced course consider that rich rarely sell their assets and btc is precisely that-an asset.
When you sell an asset, you get hit with the cap gains tax (at least in US), I think that at least Germany and Portugal (maybe Denmark as well-not sure) don't have cap gains on btc sells. What do rich (like Musk) do? They borrow against the asset in $$.

Let's say that instead of selling 20% of btc at 20K (for easier calc) you borrow 20% of the net current value at yearly 5% (realistic numbers).
So, essentially, you got cash equal to 20% of your stash without selling anything.
If btc goes down, you keep paying the loan from your fiat cash flow (it has to be significant and positive, of course).
If btc goes up, for example 100%(to 40k, quite realistic), you sell 10% to buy back your loan (note that you only need to sell 10%, not 20).
The end result-you have 90% of the original stash, was able to do something with 20% of the original value (invest, buy a house, etc), paid only less than half tax (comparing to the original tax) with less than half because you can possibly deduct something of the loan interest, not 100% sure about that.

[HairyMaclairy]

Ok I’m calling the top for 2020 at $23,777.  

Let’s see how well this comment ages.  I am not trading this (hodl only) but just calling the top for fun.  YMMV.  

[jojo69]

Ok I’m calling the top for 2020 at $23,777.  

Let’s see how well this comment ages.  I am not trading this but just calling the top for fun.  YMMV.  

[HairyMaclairy]

.. so it seems to me that shaving off some lil corns along the way or just consuming goods and services here and there does not really seem like a bad thing.. including the considerations of consuming some other kinds of investments if anything strikes the fancy of the HODLER who happens to have way more than 90%+ in bitcoin, largely due to BTC price appreciation rather than being irresponsible in any kind of way related to how such BTC HODLer had acquired such BTC in the earlier years.  

Yes, but it is just strategic thinking 101.
For a more advanced course consider that rich rarely sell their assets and btc is precisely that-an asset.
When you sell an asset, you get hit with the cap gains tax (at least in US), I think that at least Germany and Portugal (maybe Denmark as well-not sure) don't have cap gains on btc sells. What do rich (like Musk) do? They borrow against the asset in $$.

Let's say that instead of selling 20% of btc at 20K (for easier calc) you borrow 20% of the net current value at yearly 5% (realistic numbers).
So, essentially, you got cash equal to 20% of your stash without selling anything.
If btc goes down, you keep paying the loan from your fiat cash flow (it has to be significant and positive, of course).
If btc goes up, for example 100%(to 40k, quite realistic), you sell 10% to buy back your loan (note that you only need to sell 10%, not 20).
The end result-you have 90% of the original stash, was able to do something with 20% of the original value (invest, buy a house, etc), paid only less than half tax (comparing to the original tax) with less than half because you can possibly deduct something of the loan interest, not 100% sure about that.

How do you propose to manage margin calls?

[Biodom]

Ok I’m calling the top for 2020 at $23,777.  

Let’s see how well this comment ages.  I am not trading this but just calling the top for fun.  YMMV.  

blasphemy...
I kind of agree, comparing to 2017 except to "bottom" at either 20.8K (if Nov repeats) or maybe even 16500-18800 in March 2017 scenario.
I don't root for the dip, but we are a bit exuberant right now.

[Biodom]

.. so it seems to me that shaving off some lil corns along the way or just consuming goods and services here and there does not really seem like a bad thing.. including the considerations of consuming some other kinds of investments if anything strikes the fancy of the HODLER who happens to have way more than 90%+ in bitcoin, largely due to BTC price appreciation rather than being irresponsible in any kind of way related to how such BTC HODLer had acquired such BTC in the earlier years.  

Yes, but it is just strategic thinking 101.
For a more advanced course consider that rich rarely sell their assets and btc is precisely that-an asset.
When you sell an asset, you get hit with the cap gains tax (at least in US), I think that at least Germany and Portugal (maybe Denmark as well-not sure) don't have cap gains on btc sells. What do rich (like Musk) do? They borrow against the asset in $$.

Let's say that instead of selling 20% of btc at 20K (for easier calc) you borrow 20% of the net current value at yearly 5% (realistic numbers).
So, essentially, you got cash equal to 20% of your stash without selling anything.
If btc goes down, you keep paying the loan from your fiat cash flow (it has to be significant and positive, of course).
If btc goes up, for example 100%(to 40k, quite realistic), you sell 10% to buy back your loan (note that you only need to sell 10%, not 20).
The end result-you have 90% of the original stash, was able to do something with 20% of the original value (invest, buy a house, etc), paid only less than half tax (comparing to the original tax) with less than half because you can possibly deduct something of the loan interest, not 100% sure about that.

How do you propose to manage margin calls?

20% LTV means margin calls are unlikely. It has to drop more than 80% from the current price.
For more-You can buy crazy puts on ledger X or Deribit-it should not be too expensive.

[El duderino_]

Ok I’m calling the top for 2020 at $23,777.  

Let’s see how well this comment ages.  I am not trading this (hodl only) but just calling the top for fun.  YMMV.  

Me = JJG

.....

Hairybeary.... 

Only shorter text

[OutOfMemory]

^ LOL

EDIT: Sorry, that was too short. Rules and all... 

We're on the way through $23k again.

[serveria.com]

Moar fuel for the fire... 

[kurious]

I'm with Bob that he started the breakthrough beyond 20K. period.

Confirmed.

I think December 16th from now on should be Gay Christmas Card Day in Bob's honour.

[serveria.com]

I guess we're going down now, after traditional AYH on Dec 17.

No way! Because... reasons... and gay cards! 

We can go down a bit but only from $28-30k area. And only in case there will be some actual sellers. 

[serveria.com]

Unbelievable, but the card worked this time too! 

[jojo69]

[bullrun2024bro]

Grayscale just updated their info sheet. Almost 13 billion in BTC. And this is just the beginning... 

12/17/20 UPDATE: Net Assets Under Management, Holdings per Share, and Market Price per Share for our Investment Products.

Total AUM: $15.3 billion

Source: https://twitter.com/Grayscale/status/1339689307351756802

[explorer]

I voted 27000+  why not?

I would prefer a lot of sideways movement but I am think it may jump to 30k before years end.

  Wouldn't surprise me a bit, now that we are back in the groove. Not that <20k is totally dead, yet...

[explorer]

I guess this feels similar to when we busted our 1k ATH...    Feels nothing like when we hit 20k last time.    ........
#HODL' good times!

....

I agree with you -- For the most part I was referring to the current sentiment.   I feel like this 20k is closer to when we broke 1k ATH and we have much more room to grow.   Let's say we remove the need to sell for living expenses and the original goal was to one day exchange corn to fiat.   I feel that as BTC continues to grow, people's urge to swap to fiat will drop.    

Years ago or just asking a nocoiner what they think they need to retire, the typical answer is in fiat terms.   I see this changing over time as BTC grows.   Still far from that at the moment but that is the direction I see things moving.   I assume it won't be in BTC terms either...   maybe a basket of digital assets that return a predictable rate.  

tdlr;   hodl.

  Anything quantified in dollars beyond a couple years seems foolish, to me. 

[samson]

.. so it seems to me that shaving off some lil corns along the way or just consuming goods and services here and there does not really seem like a bad thing.. including the considerations of consuming some other kinds of investments if anything strikes the fancy of the HODLER who happens to have way more than 90%+ in bitcoin, largely due to BTC price appreciation rather than being irresponsible in any kind of way related to how such BTC HODLer had acquired such BTC in the earlier years.  

Yes, but it is just strategic thinking 101.
For a more advanced course consider that rich rarely sell their assets and btc is precisely that-an asset.
When you sell an asset, you get hit with the cap gains tax (at least in US), I think that at least Germany and Portugal (maybe Denmark as well-not sure) don't have cap gains on btc sells. What do rich (like Musk) do? They borrow against the asset in $$.

Let's say that instead of selling 20% of btc at 20K (for easier calc) you borrow 20% of the net current value at yearly 5% (realistic numbers).
So, essentially, you got cash equal to 20% of your stash without selling anything.
If btc goes down, you keep paying the loan from your fiat cash flow (it has to be significant and positive, of course).
If btc goes up, for example 100%(to 40k, quite realistic), you sell 10% to buy back your loan (note that you only need to sell 10%, not 20).
The end result-you have 90% of the original stash, was able to do something with 20% of the original value (invest, buy a house, etc), paid only less than half tax (comparing to the original tax) with less than half because you can possibly deduct something of the loan interest, not 100% sure about that.

What he said ^

This is the way..........When BTC becomes collateral held in an escrow operated by a bank then there really will be no limit........

[explorer]

.. so it seems to me that shaving off some lil corns along the way or just consuming goods and services here and there does not really seem like a bad thing.. including the considerations of consuming some other kinds of investments if anything strikes the fancy of the HODLER who happens to have way more than 90%+ in bitcoin, largely due to BTC price appreciation rather than being irresponsible in any kind of way related to how such BTC HODLer had acquired such BTC in the earlier years.  

Yes, but it is just strategic thinking 101.
For a more advanced course consider that rich rarely sell their assets and btc is precisely that-an asset.
When you sell an asset, you get hit with the cap gains tax (at least in US), I think that at least Germany and Portugal (maybe Denmark as well-not sure) don't have cap gains on btc sells. What do rich (like Musk) do? They borrow against the asset in $$.

Let's say that instead of selling 20% of btc at 20K (for easier calc) you borrow 20% of the net current value at yearly 5% (realistic numbers).
So, essentially, you got cash equal to 20% of your stash without selling anything.
If btc goes down, you keep paying the loan from your fiat cash flow (it has to be significant and positive, of course).
If btc goes up, for example 100%(to 40k, quite realistic), you sell 10% to buy back your loan (note that you only need to sell 10%, not 20).
The end result-you have 90% of the original stash, was able to do something with 20% of the original value (invest, buy a house, etc), paid only less than half tax (comparing to the original tax) with less than half because you can possibly deduct something of the loan interest, not 100% sure about that.

What he said ^

This is the way..........When BTC becomes collateral held in an escrow operated by a bank then there really will be no limit........

It all comes back around to Not Your Keys...  But perhaps a worthwhile risk for a small serving of corn, for some people.

[bitcoinPsycho]

Brace

[BobLawblaw]

You just had to go there. Spoil the party for everyone.

Bastard.

-10 WO Merits