Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[Torque]

Goldman Sachs CEO:   Something that moves 20% overnight does not look like a currency.  It is a vehicle to perpetuate fraud.  

To return to the Swiss, the franc appreciated 41% in less than an hour in January 2015. The whole of Switzerland must therefore be a vehicle to perpetrate fraud.

Also, an overnight drop of 8% in the pound sterling, which is the fourth largest currency, is A-OK apparently.

Goldman CEO still questioning if Bitcoin is a currency because "cryptocurrency" has the word currency in the name, makes me seriously question the intellect and reasoning of their CEO.

He might as well have said "Something that moves 20% overnight does not look like a coin, or a bit." 

[kurious]

Do you know why Bitcoin is doomed to reach one million per coin?
Because that way everybody will probably don't mind paying CG on a single bitcoin.

 

On a different note...
considering all the many txs I made and all the different adds I used and all the keys/wallet that I compromised (yes, that happens as well you all know that) I don't even fucking remember how many BTC I touched in my life.
How on Earth am I supposed to pay CG?

[Money out] minus [money in]

Everything else is a wash. 

That's my thinking too.  There's no way I could provide details of every transaction I've made over the last 4 years, especially bct to alts to btc, etc.  And also considering that there's now no way for me to access any records from Mt.Gox.  So presumably the tax authorities (HMRC in UK) would reasonably accept the "$out minus $in" figure. That's my hope anyway.  But still, paying Capital Gains Tax on crypto profits would grate, a lot.

Just wondering if anyone here has yet made a CGT return to HMRC and how it was dealt with? They're massively under-staffed (up to 45 minute waiting time when phoning them, if you manage to get through at all).  My guess is that they would accept pretty much whatever method you decide to use (i.e. a "$out minus $in" figure) as long as it seems justifiable, and they would only rarely investigate further to see if your figures are accurate, in the way that usually just accept at face value most people's regular self-assessed tax returns. I doubt they have the resources to do anything further.

Has anyone here actually dealt with HMRC yet regarding btc profits? It would be interesting to hear about your experiences.

I have been working on it with a lot of advice from my accountant.

Pay the CGT, as if they look and find anything you are sunk.

You'd better hope they accept just CGT - if they consider it 'trading' then it's TAx at your highest rate - up to 45% if it's enough money.

CGT will be 20% max and you get over £11K GBP free of tax before you pay a penny.  You can deduct the costs of the coins you bought - so you only pay the difference as a taxable gain.

I very much doubt you will get away with 'gambling' - and yes, I have asked this question.  My accountant laughed.

I still don't know if I will just pay CGT - It's difficult to PROVE you are not a trader, and they decide - not you!

[Meuh6879]

Source : http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-30/asymmetry-bubbles-status-quo-and-bitcoin

What's shocking and ridiculous is that upwards of $100 billion in electricity is squandered globally annually on stand-by devices and other painfully obvious sources of waste.

But this attracts essentially zero concern or commentary.

Do you notice any asymmetry in the scrutiny being applied to the status quo and to bitcoin et al.? The status quo-- wasteful beyond measure--is just fine: nobody questions the staggering waste built into the status quo, from hundreds of millions of devices consuming electricity but doing no work to hundreds of millions of vehicles idling in traffic for hours each and every day across the globe--nope, the really big issue is bitcoin / blockchain consumption.

Does anyone question how much electricity the vast server farms of Google and Facebook consume in order to serve up adverts and store photos of puppies and kittens? And how about the energy consumed by the NSA and the dozens of National Security agencies that have proliferated over the past 16 years? How much coal gets burned to serve adverts, archive photos of puppies and kittens, and store billions of emails, phone calls to Aunt Sadie, etc. for future analysis? (Dear old Sadie could be a jihadist--ya never know...)

[RejectedBanana]

Do you know why Bitcoin is doomed to reach one million per coin?
Because that way everybody will probably don't mind paying CG on a single bitcoin.

 

On a different note...
considering all the many txs I made and all the different adds I used and all the keys/wallet that I compromised (yes, that happens as well you all know that) I don't even fucking remember how many BTC I touched in my life.
How on Earth am I supposed to pay CG?

[Money out] minus [money in]

Everything else is a wash. 

That's my thinking too.  There's no way I could provide details of every transaction I've made over the last 4 years, especially bct to alts to btc, etc.  And also considering that there's now no way for me to access any records from Mt.Gox.  So presumably the tax authorities (HMRC in UK) would reasonably accept the "$out minus $in" figure. That's my hope anyway.  But still, paying Capital Gains Tax on crypto profits would grate, a lot.

Just wondering if anyone here has yet made a CGT return to HMRC and how it was dealt with? They're massively under-staffed (up to 45 minute waiting time when phoning them, if you manage to get through at all).  My guess is that they would accept pretty much whatever method you decide to use (i.e. a "$out minus $in" figure) as long as it seems justifiable, and they would only rarely investigate further to see if your figures are accurate, in the way that usually just accept at face value most people's regular self-assessed tax returns. I doubt they have the resources to do anything further.

Has anyone here actually dealt with HMRC yet regarding btc profits? It would be interesting to hear about your experiences.

I have been working on it with a lot of advice from my accountant.

Pay the CGT, as if they look and find anything you are sunk.

You'd better hope they accept just CGT - if they consider it 'trading' then it's TAx at your highest rate - up to 45% if it's enough money.

CGT will be 20% max and you get over £11K GBP free of tax before you pay a penny.  You can deduct the costs of the coins you bought - so you only pay the difference as a taxable gain.

I very much doubt you will get away with 'gambling' - and yes, I have asked this question.  My accountant laughed.

I still don't know if I will just pay CGT - It's difficult to PROVE you are not a trader, and they decide - not you!

Might not help for Mt Gox transactions, but I've found this tool pretty useful for importing trade histories elsewhere:

https://bitcoin.tax/

[BitcoinBunny]

Goldman Sachs CEO:   Something that moves 20% overnight does not look like a currency.  It is a vehicle to perpetuate fraud. 

To return to the Swiss, the franc appreciated 41% in less than an hour in January 2015. The whole of Switzerland must therefore be a vehicle to perpetrate fraud.

Also, an overnight drop of 8% in the pound sterling, which is the fourth largest currency, is A-OK apparently.

Isn't that the same bank that helped cause the Greek debt crisis?

[heggerZ]

Do you know why Bitcoin is doomed to reach one million per coin?
Because that way everybody will probably don't mind paying CG on a single bitcoin.

 

On a different note...
considering all the many txs I made and all the different adds I used and all the keys/wallet that I compromised (yes, that happens as well you all know that) I don't even fucking remember how many BTC I touched in my life.
How on Earth am I supposed to pay CG?

[Money out] minus [money in]

Everything else is a wash. 

That's my thinking too.  There's no way I could provide details of every transaction I've made over the last 4 years, especially bct to alts to btc, etc.  And also considering that there's now no way for me to access any records from Mt.Gox.  So presumably the tax authorities (HMRC in UK) would reasonably accept the "$out minus $in" figure. That's my hope anyway.  But still, paying Capital Gains Tax on crypto profits would grate, a lot.

Just wondering if anyone here has yet made a CGT return to HMRC and how it was dealt with? They're massively under-staffed (up to 45 minute waiting time when phoning them, if you manage to get through at all).  My guess is that they would accept pretty much whatever method you decide to use (i.e. a "$out minus $in" figure) as long as it seems justifiable, and they would only rarely investigate further to see if your figures are accurate, in the way that usually just accept at face value most people's regular self-assessed tax returns. I doubt they have the resources to do anything further.

Has anyone here actually dealt with HMRC yet regarding btc profits? It would be interesting to hear about your experiences.

I have been working on it with a lot of advice from my accountant.

Pay the CGT, as if they look and find anything you are sunk.

You'd better hope they accept just CGT - if they consider it 'trading' then it's TAx at your highest rate - up to 45% if it's enough money.

CGT will be 20% max and you get over £11K GBP free of tax before you pay a penny.  You can deduct the costs of the coins you bought - so you only pay the difference as a taxable gain.

I very much doubt you will get away with 'gambling' - and yes, I have asked this question.  My accountant laughed.

I still don't know if I will just pay CGT - It's difficult to PROVE you are not a trader, and they decide - not you!

That's my thinking to... [Money out] minus [money in]...  and pay the 20% CGT minus the £11k allowance to HMRC

You can bet the house they will go hard on crypto once it is a multi trillion market as governments synchronise after ramp in/out records en-mass

[xhomerx10]

[Icygreen]

10450, must be putting pressure on the shorts, when will they learn.

Edit: 10500  had to refresh my screen twice in the last 10 minutes to reload new asks.

[Zicore47]

Some shameless advertisement, Cointracking.info offers great tools and many api and csv imports to track all trades and calculate tax reports.

[bitserve]

P.S.: Almost everything is a taxable event as it involves "using" the actual value of BTC which is different than when you initially acquired it. The only thing I don't agree is that "moving the coins out of coinbase" is a taxable event. That doesn't make any sense.

Where is the source for "moving coins out of Coinbase" as a taxable event?

Would this mean if the coins were bought at, say, $1000 and then moved out immediately at $1000, then the gains are effectively zero? Or that I could even claim a loss if the price dropped?

Would this also mean that the further gains to $10,000 are effectively tax free, because, double taxation and all?

I don't know what's the source as I don't even agree with that interpretation.

COnsecuently, no. Also, please note that claiming a loss usually require a bigger deal of proof than claiming (and paying for) profits. There's nothing tax agencies hate more than people claiming losses. You better document it PERFECTLY and without doubt.

I think you don't grasp the concept of capital gains. Any time you realize a gain you need to pay for it... for each subsequent increment/gain.

In your example (if we were to consider moving coins as a taxable event... which is not) you would not pay as there is no gain nor loss.... You would pay for your posterior capital gains, in your case the $9000 per coin that results after substracting the initial cost ($1000) to the selling price ($10000).

Of course it is much more complex than that when you take into account FIFO/LIFO/PMP etc...

[LFC_Bitcoin]

The green shoots of recovery as $10,000 returns.

I thought crypto was dead though? Tulip, bubble etc?

[Torque]

Source : http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-30/asymmetry-bubbles-status-quo-and-bitcoin

What's shocking and ridiculous is that upwards of $100 billion in electricity is squandered globally annually on stand-by devices and other painfully obvious sources of waste.

But this attracts essentially zero concern or commentary.

Do you notice any asymmetry in the scrutiny being applied to the status quo and to bitcoin et al.? The status quo-- wasteful beyond measure--is just fine: nobody questions the staggering waste built into the status quo, from hundreds of millions of devices consuming electricity but doing no work to hundreds of millions of vehicles idling in traffic for hours each and every day across the globe--nope, the really big issue is bitcoin / blockchain consumption.

Does anyone question how much electricity the vast server farms of Google and Facebook consume in order to serve up adverts and store photos of puppies and kittens? And how about the energy consumed by the NSA and the dozens of National Security agencies that have proliferated over the past 16 years? How much coal gets burned to serve adverts, archive photos of puppies and kittens, and store billions of emails, phone calls to Aunt Sadie, etc. for future analysis? (Dear old Sadie could be a jihadist--ya never know...)

Yep, the hypocrisy is insane.

Like when all the first world countries have to adhere to things like The Paris Climate Agreement and all these overly restrictive climate and anti-pollution regulations for industry, cars, etc. Meanwhile China and India get a pass to pump out UNGODLY MASSIVE amounts of global pollution from industry and vehicles that dwarf anything that the rest of the world is doing, and no one says a word... unbelievable.

[Colonel Panic]

Do you know why Bitcoin is doomed to reach one million per coin?
Because that way everybody will probably don't mind paying CG on a single bitcoin.

 

On a different note...
considering all the many txs I made and all the different adds I used and all the keys/wallet that I compromised (yes, that happens as well you all know that) I don't even fucking remember how many BTC I touched in my life.
How on Earth am I supposed to pay CG?

[Money out] minus [money in]

Everything else is a wash. 

That's my thinking too.  There's no way I could provide details of every transaction I've made over the last 4 years, especially bct to alts to btc, etc.  And also considering that there's now no way for me to access any records from Mt.Gox.  So presumably the tax authorities (HMRC in UK) would reasonably accept the "$out minus $in" figure. That's my hope anyway.  But still, paying Capital Gains Tax on crypto profits would grate, a lot.

Just wondering if anyone here has yet made a CGT return to HMRC and how it was dealt with? They're massively under-staffed (up to 45 minute waiting time when phoning them, if you manage to get through at all).  My guess is that they would accept pretty much whatever method you decide to use (i.e. a "$out minus $in" figure) as long as it seems justifiable, and they would only rarely investigate further to see if your figures are accurate, in the way that usually just accept at face value most people's regular self-assessed tax returns. I doubt they have the resources to do anything further.

Has anyone here actually dealt with HMRC yet regarding btc profits? It would be interesting to hear about your experiences.

The entire MtGox database was (pretty) freely available a couple of years ago. A bit of looking should turn it up. If you know your account details it was starightforward to find your transactions.

In any case, if you transferred money in to buy then that'll be on your bank statements (assuming it was back when you could still do that). HMRC are likely to accept (all the money you sent)/(all the bitcoins you took out) as your CGT starting point. You also only pay 10% on the first taxable amount that takes you to the higher tax bracket, so that approx £0-11k at 0%, 11k-44k at 10%, 44K+ at 20% assuming no other income.

[gembitz]

The green shoots of recovery as $10,000 returns.

I thought crypto was dead though? Tulip, bubble etc?

there is a big fatty BTCBTC whale inkomingggg :-D weeeee

[julian071]

Source : http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-30/asymmetry-bubbles-status-quo-and-bitcoin

What's shocking and ridiculous is that upwards of $100 billion in electricity is squandered globally annually on stand-by devices and other painfully obvious sources of waste.

But this attracts essentially zero concern or commentary.

Do you notice any asymmetry in the scrutiny being applied to the status quo and to bitcoin et al.? The status quo-- wasteful beyond measure--is just fine: nobody questions the staggering waste built into the status quo, from hundreds of millions of devices consuming electricity but doing no work to hundreds of millions of vehicles idling in traffic for hours each and every day across the globe--nope, the really big issue is bitcoin / blockchain consumption.

Does anyone question how much electricity the vast server farms of Google and Facebook consume in order to serve up adverts and store photos of puppies and kittens? And how about the energy consumed by the NSA and the dozens of National Security agencies that have proliferated over the past 16 years? How much coal gets burned to serve adverts, archive photos of puppies and kittens, and store billions of emails, phone calls to Aunt Sadie, etc. for future analysis? (Dear old Sadie could be a jihadist--ya never know...)

Yep, the hypocrisy is insane.

Like when all the first world countries have to adhere to things like The Paris Climate Agreement and all these overly restrictive climate and anti-pollution regulations for industry, cars, etc. Meanwhile China and India get a pass to pump out UNGODLY MASSIVE amounts of global pollution from industry and vehicles that dwarf anything that the rest of the world is doing, and no one says a word... unbelievable.

AFAIK both China and India signed the Paris agreement, in fact the US is now the only country that hasn't.

Also, India produces half the amount of CO2 the US does, while China doubles it. If you look at that per capita, China produces half the amount of CO2 the US does per capita, and India one eighth. That should give some measure of pollution, but should be corrected for the much more high tech way that the US produces.

Don't underestimate the environmental cost of the American way of living. For example, the per capita CO2 production of the European Union is less then half that of the US.

[bitebits]

Maybe but it's still a really good site. Maybe we can throw money at them to fix it up.

 Why not just use a site that does get updated?

https://cryptowat.ch/

It's pretty awesome (and yet somehow Kraken - go figure)

Kraken has proven to be a secure platform, at least when it comes to not getting hacked.
I am sure it hurts them the most watching customers move to competitors because of the poor platform performance.

Funny when you think about it. Kraken is around since 2012 bit still did not see the herd coming.
I will happily be back at Kraken buying bitcoins, they should be more transparent though during the upgrade process.

About Cryptowatch

Cryptowatch is a cryptocurrency charting and trading platform owned by Kraken. Our system serves live data on 400+ markets to clients around the world.

Cryptowatch was originally founded in 2014 and developed by Artur Sapek in New York.

[Torque]

If you look at that per capita, China produces half the amount of CO2 the US does per capita, and India one eighth. That should give some measure of pollution, but should be corrected for the much more high tech way that the US produces.

Don't underestimate the environmental cost of the American way of living.

Eh... I'll take my chances in the US.

[Phil_S]

I feel we're going back to 11!

[ivomm]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-01/bitcoin-futures-to-start-trading-as-regulators-rush-to-catch-up

[aesma]

Source : http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-30/asymmetry-bubbles-status-quo-and-bitcoin

What's shocking and ridiculous is that upwards of $100 billion in electricity is squandered globally annually on stand-by devices and other painfully obvious sources of waste.

But this attracts essentially zero concern or commentary.

Do you notice any asymmetry in the scrutiny being applied to the status quo and to bitcoin et al.? The status quo-- wasteful beyond measure--is just fine: nobody questions the staggering waste built into the status quo, from hundreds of millions of devices consuming electricity but doing no work to hundreds of millions of vehicles idling in traffic for hours each and every day across the globe--nope, the really big issue is bitcoin / blockchain consumption.

Does anyone question how much electricity the vast server farms of Google and Facebook consume in order to serve up adverts and store photos of puppies and kittens? And how about the energy consumed by the NSA and the dozens of National Security agencies that have proliferated over the past 16 years? How much coal gets burned to serve adverts, archive photos of puppies and kittens, and store billions of emails, phone calls to Aunt Sadie, etc. for future analysis? (Dear old Sadie could be a jihadist--ya never know...)

He has a point but some bad examples. Most people will say that Google and Facebook do actually offer them something and so the electricity is not wasted.

Idling cars : something has been done about it called a stop-start system.