Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[alexeft]

The money in circulation today ($USA) is 1,18 trillion dolars [...] the projected theoretical value is 1,18 trillions of $ /21 Million Bitcoins= $56,190.47 per bitcoin.

How about the us debt + the rest of the world currencies?

We're talking about circulation (aka: the $ that can buy gramms of gold). Debt is not in circulation (or it may as well is - who knows )

About the only thing that is in circulation is debt, as even cash is debt. Someone took a loan for it to be around!!!  

Not necessarily true. Governments pay people for stuff all the time.

They do, but they become indebted to central banks or others to do so.

Also generally not true, most government outlays come from taxes. Only a small portion of expenditures in a given year are from borrowing.

In the US, at least, M1 is larger than the internal debt, so cash is not debt.

If the only one allowed by law to issue dollars, euros etc are banks (central and/or peripheral), and they only issue it as loans, then all money has to be debt, old or new.

[1714260182]

1714260182

[alexeft]

Ok, it's an approach, only IMHO it's very narrow in that you anly take into account money that is in circulation.
Then again, I certainly don't know how far bitcoin will go.

I could help and support your own one; if you like...

Please, indulge!!! 

Here is a nice way to start
https://s3.amazonaws.com/tristara-backup/sliders

There's no indulgence in that!!! 

[Vycid]

The money in circulation today ($USA) is 1,18 trillion dolars [...] the projected theoretical value is 1,18 trillions of $ /21 Million Bitcoins= $56,190.47 per bitcoin.

How about the us debt + the rest of the world currencies?

We're talking about circulation (aka: the $ that can buy gramms of gold). Debt is not in circulation (or it may as well is - who knows )

About the only thing that is in circulation is debt, as even cash is debt. Someone took a loan for it to be around!!!  

Not necessarily true. Governments pay people for stuff all the time.

They do, but they become indebted to central banks or others to do so.

Also generally not true, most government outlays come from taxes. Only a small portion of expenditures in a given year are from borrowing.

In the US, at least, M1 is larger than the internal debt, so cash is not debt.

If the only one allowed by law to issue dollars, euros etc are banks (central and/or peripheral), and they only issue it as loans, then all money has to be debt, old or new.

Not if that debt is settled without removing the cash from circulation.

[Davyd05]

I can't tell if these are pumps or the greatest bear traps of all time.

IMO its a growing knowledge base...my guess though.

[Richy_T]

"ceebits" cBTC
"embits"  mBTC
"mybits"  µBTC

I don't actually like this formulation (I prefer Millies and Mikes) but it if it were adopted, it should be noted that µ is typically written using a "u" when the font does not allow for the correct symbol so you could pronounce it "yew-bits" (Or possibly "Ewe-bits" if you have a sheeply inclination)

There is also a Wikipedia page discussing naming. It's not like people haven't thought of this before.

[alexeft]

The money in circulation today ($USA) is 1,18 trillion dolars [...] the projected theoretical value is 1,18 trillions of $ /21 Million Bitcoins= $56,190.47 per bitcoin.

How about the us debt + the rest of the world currencies?

We're talking about circulation (aka: the $ that can buy gramms of gold). Debt is not in circulation (or it may as well is - who knows )

About the only thing that is in circulation is debt, as even cash is debt. Someone took a loan for it to be around!!!  

Not necessarily true. Governments pay people for stuff all the time.

They do, but they become indebted to central banks or others to do so.

Also generally not true, most government outlays come from taxes. Only a small portion of expenditures in a given year are from borrowing.

In the US, at least, M1 is larger than the internal debt, so cash is not debt.

If the only one allowed by law to issue dollars, euros etc are banks (central and/or peripheral), and they only issue it as loans, then all money has to be debt, old or new.

Not if that debt is settled without removing the cash from circulation.

That can never happen because of interest.

Let's play a game. Suppose you are a central bank and I am a client. There's no money in circulation and you are the only one allowed to issue it. You also require interest to issue money.

Now, I request a $10 loan. With interest, you should get back $12. BUT only $10 exist. The only solution is for you to give a loan to the next client and then the next etc............ all the way to infinity. Until numbers lose their meaning!!!

I hope you understand!!!

[600watt]

I can't tell if these are pumps or the greatest bear traps of all time.

summer 2013 was the greatest bear trap of all time.

[Davyd05]

I can't tell if these are pumps or the greatest bear traps of all time.

summer 2013 was the greatest bear trap of all time.

Not buying coins before Oct. makes me feel like I was stuck in there with the bears.

[miningnew]

I can't tell if these are pumps or the greatest bear traps of all time.

summer 2013 was the greatest bear trap of all time.

Not buying coins before Oct. makes me feel like I was stuck in there with the bears.

Selling coins there makes me realize i was a bear

[maz]

Anyone got any speculation for where we are headed in the short term?

Seem's like everyone's just so surprised we broke $1000 nobody planned any speculation for afterwards, and I need speculation.

[2_Thumbs_Up]

The money in circulation today ($USA) is 1,18 trillion dolars [...] the projected theoretical value is 1,18 trillions of $ /21 Million Bitcoins= $56,190.47 per bitcoin.

How about the us debt + the rest of the world currencies?

We're talking about circulation (aka: the $ that can buy gramms of gold). Debt is not in circulation (or it may as well is - who knows )

About the only thing that is in circulation is debt, as even cash is debt. Someone took a loan for it to be around!!!  

Not necessarily true. Governments pay people for stuff all the time.

They do, but they become indebted to central banks or others to do so.

Also generally not true, most government outlays come from taxes. Only a small portion of expenditures in a given year are from borrowing.

In the US, at least, M1 is larger than the internal debt, so cash is not debt.

If the only one allowed by law to issue dollars, euros etc are banks (central and/or peripheral), and they only issue it as loans, then all money has to be debt, old or new.

Not if that debt is settled without removing the cash from circulation.

That can never happen because of interest.

Let's play a game. Suppose you are a central bank and I am a client. There's no money in circulation and you are the only one allowed to issue it. You also require interest to issue money.

Now, I request a $10 loan. With interest, you should get back $12. BUT only $10 exist. The only solution is for you to give a loan to the next client and then the next etc............ all the way to infinity. Until numbers lose their meaning!!!

I hope you understand!!!

As far as I understand, the interest is actually counted as profit, and doesn't disappear when you pay it off. It actually gets spent into the economy again, unlike the principal that do disappear when you pay it off. So you can pay off $10, then $2 gets spent into the economy, and you can try to earn that to pay off the last $2 as well (simplified). It doesn't make the system moral in any way, but I still think it's important to be correct about it.

[alexeft]

The money in circulation today ($USA) is 1,18 trillion dolars [...] the projected theoretical value is 1,18 trillions of $ /21 Million Bitcoins= $56,190.47 per bitcoin.

How about the us debt + the rest of the world currencies?

We're talking about circulation (aka: the $ that can buy gramms of gold). Debt is not in circulation (or it may as well is - who knows )

About the only thing that is in circulation is debt, as even cash is debt. Someone took a loan for it to be around!!!  

Not necessarily true. Governments pay people for stuff all the time.

They do, but they become indebted to central banks or others to do so.

Also generally not true, most government outlays come from taxes. Only a small portion of expenditures in a given year are from borrowing.

In the US, at least, M1 is larger than the internal debt, so cash is not debt.

If the only one allowed by law to issue dollars, euros etc are banks (central and/or peripheral), and they only issue it as loans, then all money has to be debt, old or new.

Not if that debt is settled without removing the cash from circulation.

That can never happen because of interest.

Let's play a game. Suppose you are a central bank and I am a client. There's no money in circulation and you are the only one allowed to issue it. You also require interest to issue money.

Now, I request a $10 loan. With interest, you should get back $12. BUT only $10 exist. The only solution is for you to give a loan to the next client and then the next etc............ all the way to infinity. Until numbers lose their meaning!!!

I hope you understand!!!

As far as I understand, the interest is actually counted as profit, and doesn't disappear when you pay it off. It actually gets spent into the economy again, unlike the principal that do disappear when you pay it off. So you can pay off $10, then $2 gets spent into the economy, and you can try to earn that to pay off the last $2 as well (simplified). It doesn't make the system moral in any way, but I still think it's important to be correct about it.

It's not a matter of morality. It's just impossible since the $2 don't exist.

[ChartBuddy]

[MahaRamana]

Anyone got any speculation for where we are headed in the short term?

Seem's like everyone's just so surprised we broke $1000 nobody planned any speculation for afterwards, and I need speculation.

Surprised ? Who ?

When it was crashing from 900 and we reached 550 USD I said : It will fall below 500 but 400 will hold. If 400 holds then we will hit 1000 USD within the next 10 days. And here we are 7 days later... All correct.

Expect more of the same, going up strong with some corrections/ crashes on the way. For exemple we maybe hit 1600 before crashing back to 1200, then resume rise.

I believe it can again double by the end of the year to 2000 USD. A more conservative estimation is 1500 USD by the end of the year.
In 2014 I believe we'll witness the bull through the 4 digits with the 5 digits in sight. When we reach 5 digits is anyone's guess but I personally see it happen within 12 months.

[kurious]

Anyone got any speculation for where we are headed in the short term?

Seem's like everyone's just so surprised we broke $1000 nobody planned any speculation for afterwards, and I need speculation.

Surprised ? Who ?

When it was crashing from 900 and we reached 550 USD I said : It will fall below 500 but 400 will hold. If 400 holds then we will hit 1000 USD within the next 10 days. And here we are 7 days later... All correct.

Expect more of the same, going up strong with some corrections/ crashes on the way. For exemple we maybe hit 1600 before crashing back to 1200, then resume rise.

I believe it can again double by the end of the year to 2000 USD. A more conservative estimation is 1500 USD by the end of the year.
In 2014 I believe we'll witness the bull through the 4 digits with the 5 digits in sight. When we reach 5 digits is anyone's guess but I personally see it happen within 12 months.

Your credibility is not in question, you have often been a good judge before - so I read this and think:  Wow!

[JimboToronto]

Seem's like everyone's just so surprised we broke $1000

Only the bears.

[maz]

Anyone got any speculation for where we are headed in the short term?

Seem's like everyone's just so surprised we broke $1000 nobody planned any speculation for afterwards, and I need speculation.

Surprised ? Who ?

When it was crashing from 900 and we reached 550 USD I said : It will fall below 500 but 400 will hold. If 400 holds then we will hit 1000 USD within the next 10 days. And here we are 7 days later... All correct.

Expect more of the same, going up strong with some corrections/ crashes on the way. For exemple we maybe hit 1600 before crashing back to 1200, then resume rise.

I believe it can again double by the end of the year to 2000 USD. A more conservative estimation is 1500 USD by the end of the year.
In 2014 I believe we'll witness the bull through the 4 digits with the 5 digits in sight. When we reach 5 digits is anyone's guess but I personally see it happen within 12 months.

Thanks for that.

[MahaRamana]

Anyone got any speculation for where we are headed in the short term?

Seem's like everyone's just so surprised we broke $1000 nobody planned any speculation for afterwards, and I need speculation.

Surprised ? Who ?

When it was crashing from 900 and we reached 550 USD I said : It will fall below 500 but 400 will hold. If 400 holds then we will hit 1000 USD within the next 10 days. And here we are 7 days later... All correct.

Expect more of the same, going up strong with some corrections/ crashes on the way. For exemple we maybe hit 1600 before crashing back to 1200, then resume rise.

I believe it can again double by the end of the year to 2000 USD. A more conservative estimation is 1500 USD by the end of the year.
In 2014 I believe we'll witness the bull through the 4 digits with the 5 digits in sight. When we reach 5 digits is anyone's guess but I personally see it happen within 12 months.

Your credibility is not in question, you have often been a good judge before - so I read this and think:  Wow!

But some very bearish news could also crash it back to 300... unlikely tough.
Also a technological breakthrough that would make new quantum computers able to crack bitcoin would crash it's value to about zero.
It would be too easy if there were no downwards risks involved.
In our situation I consider the upside potential to vastly surpass the downside potential. But the risk to loose it all exists... as it exists if you hold USD on a bank account or under your mattress - or gold in a safe somewhere...

[dwdoc]

The money in circulation today ($USA) is 1,18 trillion dolars [...] the projected theoretical value is 1,18 trillions of $ /21 Million Bitcoins= $56,190.47 per bitcoin.

How about the us debt + the rest of the world currencies?

We're talking about circulation (aka: the $ that can buy gramms of gold). Debt is not in circulation (or it may as well is - who knows )

About the only thing that is in circulation is debt, as even cash is debt. Someone took a loan for it to be around!!!  

Not necessarily true. Governments pay people for stuff all the time.

They do, but they become indebted to central banks or others to do so.

Also generally not true, most government outlays come from taxes. Only a small portion of expenditures in a given year are from borrowing.

In the US, at least, M1 is larger than the internal debt, so cash is not debt.

If the only one allowed by law to issue dollars, euros etc are banks (central and/or peripheral), and they only issue it as loans, then all money has to be debt, old or new.

Not if that debt is settled without removing the cash from circulation.

That can never happen because of interest.

Let's play a game. Suppose you are a central bank and I am a client. There's no money in circulation and you are the only one allowed to issue it. You also require interest to issue money.

Now, I request a $10 loan. With interest, you should get back $12. BUT only $10 exist. The only solution is for you to give a loan to the next client and then the next etc............ all the way to infinity. Until numbers lose their meaning!!!

I hope you understand!!!

As far as I understand, the interest is actually counted as profit, and doesn't disappear when you pay it off. It actually gets spent into the economy again, unlike the principal that do disappear when you pay it off. So you can pay off $10, then $2 gets spent into the economy, and you can try to earn that to pay off the last $2 as well (simplified). It doesn't make the system moral in any way, but I still think it's important to be correct about it.

It's not a matter of morality. It's just impossible since the $2 don't exist.

That is true. The loaned $10 is generated out of nothing by banks and the only way to create the $2 interest is to loan more money into the economy. It is a pyramid financial system. That is why the GDP has to be positive each year to avoid recession. But that requires exponential growth since it is 3% added to the previous year's 3% increase, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqvKjsIxT_8

[Davyd05]

i think were at like 8 qu-bit (quantum bit? ) computing.. that lasts hours..and im not sure if thats just data storage. To say were going to hear news of a 32000 qubit computer any time soon seems unlikely.. I believe that was the power required to crack the sha 256...however to some this was more likely then bitcoin being a 1000$usd lol