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Question: How far will this leg take us?
$110K - 9 (8.3%)
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$130K - 17 (15.7%)
$140K - 9 (8.3%)
$150K - 19 (17.6%)
$160K - 2 (1.9%)
$170K+ - 33 (30.6%)
Total Voters: 108

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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26964933 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 1 users with 9 merit deleted.)
ChartBuddy
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April 13, 2025, 04:01:13 PM


Explanation
Chartbuddy thanks talkimg.com
cAPSLOCK
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April 13, 2025, 04:15:25 PM
Last edit: April 13, 2025, 04:41:45 PM by cAPSLOCK
Merited by JayJuanGee (3), vapourminer (1), Hueristic (1), Biodom (1), jojo69 (1), AlcoHoDL (1), psycodad (1)


*some kind words deleted*

There are always various threats to bitcoin, and off the top of my head (which also might well be really inaccurate), I would consider that probably the kinds of threats that relate to having to use third parties to transact in bitcoin are probably amongst the worst of threats, and so it seems to me that ongoingly many of us need to be trying to figure out ways to transact directly with others in bitcoin even if there might be ongoing attempts to get us to transact through third party intermediaries.

Surely i have no problem conceding that you might recognize and appreciate some bitcoin threats that I am not quite recognizing and appreciating.. so there is that aspect too.

I see two major fronts on which bitcoin has some upcoming challenges.  These two things overlap and also are not new at all.  But the part that is new is the audience for them.  Your example really encapsulates them both.

1. Scaling.  This is currently a contiuum with different amounts of two tradeoffs.
   a. complexity - systems that use complex schemes to retain trust minimization
   b. trust - systems that return trust to a third party for ease and cheapness of use

Pure "A" is hard. And so far there are not many systems that are doing it.  Lightning is the best example of a scheme that retains the trust minimization of the base layer.  But lightning's complexity makes it hard for the individual user.  Interestingly it is being used best by professional nodes like LSPs, Exchanges, and more recently as the backbone for hybrid trust model wallets.  The latter is one of the most interesting developments currently.

Pure "B" is easy.  Full trust.  Cashu is a great example of the second tradeoff.  And though the tech itself is fantastic (Chaumian mints) and super easy to use, allows strong privacy, and is a bearer asset I think it is one of the worst sets of tradeoffs available for users who care at ALL about sovereignty.  It relies on a single point of failure.  A single mint.  Essentially the e-cash token is a simple IOU.  NYKNYC.  Not only that but the issuer can "claw back" the value selectively.



And the "plebs" are gobbling this up like it's sliced bread.  Very very worrisome to me, honestly.

Now I am not overlooking how this sort of scheme could be useful.  Big banks could use it to issue their own bitcoin scrip that can be interchanged with other banks even.  And we all trust the big banks, right?   I mean, that sounds sarcastic.  But if you have ANY meaningful value in a bank account like I do, then you certainly do trust the bank.

This full trust model extends to things like accounts at exchanges, CashApp, Strike, Wallet of Satoshi, Coinos.io, and all other full custodial models. Though it cannot be used for exchanging value (yet) the ETFs fit in here too...

But perhaps the best sets of trade-offs are ones that introduce compromises in complexity and trust models.  Liquid has always been a big contender here.  You introduce a FEDERATED (distributed) trust model and gain the ability for large centralized nodes run by large players to use advanced hardware etc to run a blockchain.  Now you can have blocks as big, and fast, etc as you want.  Not everyone runs a node  but those who do distribute the trust amongst the federation.

The MOST exciting developments use a COMBINATION of the above things to create wallets that are easy to use, but are self-custody.

Aqua wallet, and the new Misty Breez (do not confuse with the original Breez wallet) are amazing wallets.  These both seamlessly use the base BTC chain, LBTC on liquid, enterprise level Lightning nodes, and trust-less swaps to  make sending and receiving bitcoin cheap and easy without sacrificing sovereignty.  This the the razors edge in my opinion... and though we should be cautious I think the is a lot of room for this sort of model to thrive.

Back to the main bit...

2. CUSTODY.  This is the attack vector that worries me most.

The ETFs are one big risk.  "Strategy" is another.  And centralized custodians, particularly Coinbase are the biggest target of all.  The risks are simple to understand.  For example:

-What if they are robbed?  
-What if they lie about what they hold and are, or become fractional.  
-What if they are used by governments and central banks to centralize holdings and the basically create a "free market" CBDC?

This is another reason that I have much interest in federated models like Liquid.  Elements, the underlying software that Liquid runs on is FOSS, and can be used in the end by ALL the above big players to strengthen the security and resilience of custody.  

So I lied...  then there is #3.

3.  What I mentioned previously.  Now we get to see the big new players, and most of the rest of the world live through all the same things we have seen before over and over,

-The price swings of one of the worlds only true free markets. "OMG!! We need to change the way BTC is issued so we can tamp down these swings!  Circuit breakers!  Control!!!"
-Fee markets "OMG!! We have to change the blocksize or something!  These fees ruin the base layer"
-Shitcoins "OMG!  This is the new bitcoin!!!  Stable tokens on ETH are the answer!"
-Quantum!  "OMG Satoshis coins are at risk!!!"
-AI  "OMG! I now have nine fingers so I can hodl more!"  (I am sure there are real risks here too... lol)

All these things will bring up the concept of changing the code of BTC.  But it will be POWERFUL folks suggesting this with the full force of their propaganda machines this time.  But still we know how this works out.  It just won't be fun to live through... again.



Anyway...  I said I would do less blathering...  Heh.  I say a lot of things.  That's what blathering is I guess...

And I am fine.  Stop worrying about me (and thank you from the bottom of my heart).

clown on a coaster
i have a lot going on
i like black coffee
vapourminer
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April 13, 2025, 04:23:07 PM
Merited by Hueristic (1), JayJuanGee (1), AlcoHoDL (1), OutOfMemory (1), psycodad (1)

enough


here is a haiku
wo and Sunday haiku
from Philip to all

A very lame one
Go down under and observe
Eddie shows the way.


Tongue

well now that is cold
cannot we be nice to phil
for trying at least?

i mean come on now
as we all cant be eddie
only one can be
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April 13, 2025, 04:35:21 PM
Merited by vapourminer (1), JayJuanGee (1), OutOfMemory (1)

If I were to explain my introduction to "the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy" I would be revealing far too much for anyone to ever believe about me.


https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345418913/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

You can get a copy of it on Amazon.

And the introduction would be more normal..


Still my favourite book/s (as some might know there are four sequels).
I read the original as a teen, mostly when travelling with the bus. A good way to avoid eye-contact with others, without it getting too obvious.
I think at that time, two or three of the five books got published. Later on, i also found the novels about the Holistic Detective, whose name i don't remember right now. Dick something?

Fun fact: Sometimes, when i meet people who were travelling on the same bus, i speak up and ask if they remember me, though it's been more than 30 years now, and some of them replied with something like: "Sure i remember, you were the one reading and giggling all the time..."

Later, i was diving into Pratchett's universe, but i never found anything remotely comparable to Douglas Adam's brilliant storytelling works.
Not reading The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy would be a loss for any educated individual.


I think you would like Piers anthony.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345354915?ie=UTF8
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April 13, 2025, 04:38:39 PM
Merited by vapourminer (1), JayJuanGee (1)


*some kind words deleted*

There are always various threats to bitcoin, and off the top of my head (which also might well be really inaccurate), I would consider that probably the kinds of threats that relate to having to use third parties to transact in bitcoin are probably amongst the worst of threats, and so it seems to me that ongoingly many of us need to be trying to figure out ways to transact directly with others in bitcoin even if there might be ongoing attempts to get us to transact through third party intermediaries.

Surely i have no problem conceding that you might recognize and appreciate some bitcoin threats that I am not quite recognizing and appreciating.. so there is that aspect too.

I see two major fronts on which bitcoin has some upcoming challenges.  These two things overlap and also are not new at all.  But the part that is new is the audience for them.  Your example really encapsulates them both.

1. Scaling.  This is currently a contiuum with different amounts of two tradeoffs.
   a. complexity - systems that use complex schemes to retain trust minimization
   b. trust - systems that return trust to a third party for ease and cheapness of use

"A" is hard. And so far there are not many systems that are using it.  Lightning is the best example of a scheme that retains the trust minimization of the base layer.  But lightning's complexity makes it hard for the individual user.  Interestingly it is being used best by professional nodes like LSPs, Exchanges, and more recently as the backbone for hybrid trust model wallets.  The latter is one of the most interesting developments currently.

"B" is easy.  Especially full trust.  Cashu is a great example of the second tradeoff.  And though the tech itself is fantastic (Chaumian mints) and super easy to use, allows strong privacy, and is a bearer asset I think it is one of the worst sets of tradeoffs available for users who care at ALL about sovereignty.  It relies on a single point of failure.  A single mint.  Essentially the e-cash token is a simple IOU.  NYKNYC.  Not only that but the issuer can "claw back" the value selectively.



And the "plebs" are gobbling this up like it's sliced bread.  Very very worrisome to me, honestly.


This pleb never heard of Cashu, so I gather, it is not THAT wide spread yet.

My aim with any wallet/provider/bitcoin bank is one and the same:

I am interested in a solution what would, in a programmed, decentralized fashion, allow me to lend my bitcoin (without releasing it's custody) to a third partly, that would also be programmatically controlled, so I get, say, 1-3% "interest" on my bitcoin...in bitcoin, NOT $$. Whoever achieves this is a winner in my "book". I don't want to spend bitcoin because it is hard to replace, but I surely would like to have some income off of it.
If it is an asset, it should or could behave like an asset. Even Satoshi envisioned "bitcoin banks".
Who could be a consumer of such lending-mostly margin players, which are plenty, some institutions, who would want an edge, entrepreneurs looking for a short term loans, etc.

I think Blockstream is trying something along these lines, but they are not there yet, afaik.
This summer, there are supposed to be some bills passed about "digital market structure' as they can't just say it is bitcoin only.

We shall see afterwards.
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April 13, 2025, 04:39:14 PM
Merited by vapourminer (1), JayJuanGee (1)




You can already do this to an extent with Bitcoin. After having a couple of friends be cavalier with the samples I gave them, when I gifted my brother some, I gave him a paper wallet to which I retained a copy of the private key. If he is interested enough to transfer the coins out of it, he can. If he loses it, I can restore it for him. This is not good for real-world usage, of course but you either lock in the transfer or you don't in my eyes (ignoring multi-key stuff for a second).
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April 13, 2025, 04:43:31 PM
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I am interested in a solution what would, in a programmed, decentralized fashion, allow me to lend my bitcoin (without releasing it's custody) to a third partly, that would also be programmatically controlled, so I get, say, 1-3% "interest" on my bitcoin.

What scenario do you envision where people would pay you for you to hold you bitcoin and them not be able to use them because they don't have custody? I can't see much opportunity for something like that outside of Proof of Stake.

Potentially some kind of collateral? I think that's often done in insurance with other kinds of property. That's not risk-free though.
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April 13, 2025, 04:47:07 PM
Merited by Hueristic (6), vapourminer (4), cAPSLOCK (3), JayJuanGee (1), AlcoHoDL (1)

Spent my last Merit
Too soon, too much, some might say
This may earn me some

I spent them early
Did not know what was to come
I missed out on some

This time was different
Next time i will be careful
Choose wisely, it says

#happyHaikuSunday
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April 13, 2025, 04:53:18 PM
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You can already do this to an extent with Bitcoin. After having a couple of friends be cavalier with the samples I gave them, when I gifted my brother some, I gave him a paper wallet to which I retained a copy of the private key. If he is interested enough to transfer the coins out of it, he can. If he loses it, I can restore it for him. This is not good for real-world usage, of course but you either lock in the transfer or you don't in my eyes (ignoring multi-key stuff for a second).

I have done the same.  I hold the keys to all gifts I have given to family members.

And this shows where things like single mint e-cash schemes could be used.

Trust is NOT a bad thing.  Being FORCED to trust is very bad.  Especially being forced to trust vipers.  But a family, for example, is a place where trust can thrive.  At least a mostly good family... I know not all are.  In this case uncle Richy the geek can run a mint/lightning node/whatever.  He is the families "Central Bank" and can think up ways to offer ease of use, backups, instructions, vaults, mints, nodes, whatever... at the cost of trust.  But uncle Richy is a good guy... and can be trusted by the family... so...
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April 13, 2025, 04:53:50 PM
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I am interested in a solution what would, in a programmed, decentralized fashion, allow me to lend my bitcoin (without releasing it's custody) to a third partly, that would also be programmatically controlled, so I get, say, 1-3% "interest" on my bitcoin.

What scenario do you envision where people would pay you for you to hold you bitcoin and them not be able to use them because they don't have custody? I can't see much opportunity for something like that outside of Proof of Stake.

Potentially some kind of collateral? I think that's often done in insurance with other kinds of property. That's not risk-free though.

I am not very sure about details, but here is something about the Blockstream.
https://cointelegraph.com/news/blockstream-to-launch-bitcoin-lending-funds-with-multi-billion-investment
Perhaps, bitcoin yield comes from Light node operations?
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April 13, 2025, 04:54:14 PM

      Smiley
  • fastestFee: 1 sat/vB
  • halfHourFee: 1 sat/vB
  • hourFee: 1 sat/vB
  • economyFee: 1 sat/vB
  • minimumFee: 1 sat/vB

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April 13, 2025, 04:59:09 PM
Merited by Hueristic (6)

Thank you, Hueristic
I paid off my merit debts
Now i owe you some

ChartBuddy
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April 13, 2025, 05:01:13 PM


Explanation
Chartbuddy thanks talkimg.com
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April 13, 2025, 05:03:34 PM
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Thank you, Hueristic
I paid off my merit debts
Now i owe you some



No worries, keep them, I don't have a use for them.
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April 13, 2025, 05:05:53 PM
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Thank you, Hueristic
I paid off my merit debts
Now i owe you some



No worries, keep them, I don't have a use for them.

Well, obviously, you do Wink
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April 13, 2025, 05:16:50 PM

Thank you, Hueristic
I paid off my merit debts
Now i owe you some



No worries, keep them, I don't have a use for them.

Well, obviously, you do Wink


LOL.

Has anyone seen Mobland?

worth the watch?
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April 13, 2025, 06:01:15 PM


Explanation
Chartbuddy thanks talkimg.com
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April 13, 2025, 06:09:59 PM

Thank you, Hueristic
I paid off my merit debts
Now i owe you some



No worries, keep them, I don't have a use for them.

Well, obviously, you do Wink


LOL.

Has anyone seen Mobland?

worth the watch?

Film or Series?

Found two google results

Mob Land is a 2023 American crime thriller film
MobLand is a UK crime drama television series
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April 13, 2025, 06:13:58 PM

Thank you, Hueristic
I paid off my merit debts
Now i owe you some



No worries, keep them, I don't have a use for them.

Well, obviously, you do Wink


LOL.

Has anyone seen Mobland?

worth the watch?

Film or Series?

Found two google results

Mob Land is a 2023 American crime thriller film
MobLand is a UK crime drama television series

Watching the xfl and they had a commercial, its Guy Richy so I was hoping it would be good but I just read the 1 star reviews on imdb and it sounds like its shit so unless someone says its good i'll just pass on it.
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April 13, 2025, 06:27:09 PM
Merited by El duderino_ (21), vapourminer (1), Hueristic (1), JayJuanGee (1), AlcoHoDL (1), OutOfMemory (1), P_Shep (1)

enough


here is a haiku
wo and Sunday haiku
from Philip to all

A very lame one
Go down under and observe
Eddie shows the way.


Tongue

Enjoying in BKK with El duderino_

Cheers!

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