Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[molecular]

hehehe

[bangersdad]

Warning Warning.

Mat the Cat has closed his longs...this is a good contrarian indicator.

buy buy buy!

[QuestionAuthority]

Is there ever an outcome to these polls where the majority votes something other than the highest amount?

[kryptopojken]

Huobi just came out of nowhere... kinda caught me off guard ;/

[macsga]

Morning ChooChoo...?

[boumalo]

5k to $700 and 1k to $640 at finex 

I am not sure it gives us much information, what do you think?

[molecular]

5k to $700 and 1k to $640 at finex  

I am not sure it gives us much information, what do you think?

"5k to $700 and 5k to $620 at finex" is also true

[dnaleor]

To all those drawing graphs: How high will we go?

this would be great 
A repeat of the previous uptrend would bring us >800 USD

[JayJuanGee]

Well anyway I don't know why people are so blind that they can't see fiat is the Ponzi and bitcoin is the way out of the Ponzi.

I herd you don't like Ponzi so we created a new Ponzi to get you out of Ponzi

CoolStoryBro:  

hehehehehe......    

Even though you are being a little ridiculous with your comment, above, I believe that your comment highlights a decent point.

Accordingly, I would clarify that neither bitcoin nor fiat is a ponzi scheme...

To say that either bitcoin or fiat is a ponzi scheme is to overly simplify and to misapply the concept of ponzi scheme.  Neither fiat nor bitcoin is so simple an arrangement - there are too many factors influencing each.

Fiat is a ponzi scheme in the sense that the monetary system works in a way where all money in existence is created in the form of Debt - with interest. So you have to constantly grow the monetary base to repay the interests of the previously created money with new money that is itself more debt and requires more interest which requires more money as debt etc... So it truly is a Ponzi and can only collapse at some point but it is benefiting only the few that control the global monetary system. A fiat monetary system that is not a ponzi could be created by emitting the FIAT directly and without liability to this emission, the counter party of the fiat being the work of the participants in the economy. Yet it has not been designed in this way but has been designed in a way that gradually enslaves the majority of the population and shifts most of the wealth in invisible hands.

On the other hand bitcoin is not a ponzi because it is an asset that is not the liability of someone else. If you have a bitcoin, nobody owes you anything about it. You just have your bitcoin and nobody else is involved in this position. It's like gold. Who could say that gold is a ponzi ?

A ponzi implies centralisation and fraud. Centralised fraud is used to influence the expectations of the investors based on the creation of false past and present returns. The money of new investors is used to hide the fraud by actually paying these false returns to first investors instead of giving new entrants their fair share in assets.

Bitcoin does not have returns - it only appreciates or depreciates based on its current utility and anticipated-utility in the future.
Bitcoin does not have centralisation that can hide parts of the information about it's use and nature - everything is in the open in the blockchain.

It's simply an asset that can crash or explode higher without counter party liability.

Therefore, using the word ponzi for the global monetary FIAT system is appropriate. Yet using the word ponzi for the bitcoin ledger system is not appropriate.

My point is that ponzi scheme is NOT appropriate for either.  The government and its money system is much more complicated than some simple operation to rob the money of the poor for the rich, even though those kinds of dynamics that you describe are going on in the government.. NONETHELESS governmental systems remain much more complicated and nuanced as compared to a ponzi scheme which is generally a smaller operation designed smoke and mirrors to deceive.... surely there is some deception that is going on within government systems, as you suggest.. but ponzi scheme is NOT the correct concept and to attempt to simplify the fit into such a narrow definition is to oversimplify the various purposes and services of government....


Don't get me wrong, I am all for reform, and I am all for removing some of the corrupting influences of government and the disruption that bitcoin will be providing to potentially put more power into the hands of the people.

At the same time, I would NOT be so deluded as to believe that the government is going to disappear in some variations of its current form in any time in the very near future... transitions of systems take time... and certainly, we will be witnessing some of bitcoin's effects on various governmental and monetary institutions in the coming years.

[akujin]

5k to $700 and 1k to $640 at finex  

I am not sure it gives us much information, what do you think?

"5k to $700 and 5k to $620 at finex" is also true

Yeah.. I didn't notice the price aren't symmetrical  

Here... Price now is at 660

[nioc]

We have been in a flat triangle since June 1st.  The trend was strongly bullish as we entered.  I expect us to leave this triangle within the next 6 hours or so.  We should break out to the upside and head up to at least the 750 area before taking a break or continuing up.

1

[nioc]

It looks like we're in for a few weeks of stagnation.

2

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[oda.krell]

Well anyway I don't know why people are so blind that they can't see fiat is the Ponzi and bitcoin is the way out of the Ponzi.

I herd you don't like Ponzi so we created a new Ponzi to get you out of Ponzi

CoolStoryBro:  

hehehehehe......    

Even though you are being a little ridiculous with your comment, above, I believe that your comment highlights a decent point.

Accordingly, I would clarify that neither bitcoin nor fiat is a ponzi scheme...

To say that either bitcoin or fiat is a ponzi scheme is to overly simplify and to misapply the concept of ponzi scheme.  Neither fiat nor bitcoin is so simple an arrangement - there are too many factors influencing each.

Fiat is a ponzi scheme in the sense that the monetary system works in a way where all money in existence is created in the form of Debt - with interest. So you have to constantly grow the monetary base to repay the interests of the previously created money with new money that is itself more debt and requires more interest which requires more money as debt etc... So it truly is a Ponzi and can only collapse at some point but it is benefiting only the few that control the global monetary system. A fiat monetary system that is not a ponzi could be created by emitting the FIAT directly and without liability to this emission, the counter party of the fiat being the work of the participants in the economy. Yet it has not been designed in this way but has been designed in a way that gradually enslaves the majority of the population and shifts most of the wealth in invisible hands.

On the other hand bitcoin is not a ponzi because it is an asset that is not the liability of someone else. If you have a bitcoin, nobody owes you anything about it. You just have your bitcoin and nobody else is involved in this position. It's like gold. Who could say that gold is a ponzi ?

A ponzi implies centralisation and fraud. Centralised fraud is used to influence the expectations of the investors based on the creation of false past and present returns. The money of new investors is used to hide the fraud by actually paying these false returns to first investors instead of giving new entrants their fair share in assets.

Bitcoin does not have returns - it only appreciates or depreciates based on its current utility and anticipated-utility in the future.
Bitcoin does not have centralisation that can hide parts of the information about it's use and nature - everything is in the open in the blockchain.

It's simply an asset that can crash or explode higher without counter party liability.

Therefore, using the word ponzi for the global monetary FIAT system is appropriate. Yet using the word ponzi for the bitcoin ledger system is not appropriate.

My point is that ponzi scheme is NOT appropriate for either.  The government and its money system is much more complicated than some simple operation to rob the money of the poor for the rich, even though those kinds of dynamics that you describe are going on in the government.. NONETHELESS governmental systems remain much more complicated and nuanced as compared to a ponzi scheme which is generally a smaller operation designed smoke and mirrors to deceive.... surely there is some deception that is going on within government systems, as you suggest.. but ponzi scheme is NOT the correct concept and to attempt to simplify the fit into such a narrow definition is to oversimplify the various purposes and services of government....


Don't get me wrong, I am all for reform, and I am all for removing some of the corrupting influences of government and the disruption that bitcoin will be providing to potentially put more power into the hands of the people.

At the same time, I would NOT be so deluded as to believe that the government is going to disappear in some variations of its current form in any time in the very near future... transitions of systems take time... and certainly, we will be witnessing some of bitcoin's effects on various governmental and monetary institutions in the coming years.

Completely agree.

But you're going to be feeling a bit lonely in here, with a nuanced position towards state and government like that.

At least a vocal subsection of bitcoin enthusiasts are strongly enough anti government and/or anti central bank controlled money flow that "ponzi" would be one of the nicer words in their inventory for it

[N12]

Warning Warning.

Mat the Cat has closed his longs...this is a good contrarian indicator.

buy buy buy!

[600watt]

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/year+olds+hack+using+manual+found+online/9921271/story.html


talking about security and banks... 

[madmat]

Why arbitrage is not sufficient to align prices on main exchanges ? Price difference is 20$ between bitfinex and btc-e!

Data for USD weighted average
exchange   volume %   volume ฿   last price
Bitfinex   37.38%   7,856.61   661.11 USD
Bitstamp   27.71%   5,824.30   651.21 USD
BTC-e   19.60%   4,119.46   644.01 USD

[ErisDiscordia]

My point is that ponzi scheme is NOT appropriate for either.  The government and its money system is much more complicated than some simple operation to rob the money of the poor for the rich, even though those kinds of dynamics that you describe are going on in the government.. NONETHELESS governmental systems remain much more complicated and nuanced as compared to a ponzi scheme which is generally a smaller operation designed smoke and mirrors to deceive.... surely there is some deception that is going on within government systems, as you suggest.. but ponzi scheme is NOT the correct concept and to attempt to simplify the fit into such a narrow definition is to oversimplify the various purposes and services of government....


Don't get me wrong, I am all for reform, and I am all for removing some of the corrupting influences of government and the disruption that bitcoin will be providing to potentially put more power into the hands of the people.

At the same time, I would NOT be so deluded as to believe that the government is going to disappear in some variations of its current form in any time in the very near future... transitions of systems take time... and certainly, we will be witnessing some of bitcoin's effects on various governmental and monetary institutions in the coming years.

Yes, Fiat is NOT a Ponzi and Taxes are NOT theft, because it is the government who is engaged in these activities. The name of the action depends on who is doing the action, not on the content of the action - we've been through this before, haven't we?

Euphemisms are being used by our culture to obfuscate and conceal the graveness of many of societies conditions. And you've fallen for it.

St. George Carlin will explain way better than me

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[seljo]

No block for 30 minutes.