BFL 5 GH/s Miner Demo

[BR0KK]

Yeah.... It looks like they will have a bunch to redesign with there power problems if they want to stick to there original chip density... But I wouldn't be surprised if they end up just shipping these signs with maybe half the original chips to deal with the unexpected power issues.   Surely the PCB is dirt cheap.  So what do you guys think.  Will they be able to produce a 15Gh (3 chip) or do you think they will hit the wall at 10Gh

This is excellent news! Now they have something to ship to the various labs to obtain CE, UL and FCC approval for, unless Sonny has an in with them folks in not having to abide by governmental regulations, thus avoiding the myriad of fines.

Add to that the international conventions ... CE etc...

[minternj]

CE is a self certification. http://export.gov/cemark/eg_main_017287.asp

FCC not sure if it applies to this piece of equipment.Thought it only applied to devices that knowingly gives off RF?

[dykast]

5.3 GH/s @ $149 = $28/ghps

It actually costs $274.

They are comparing the historic prices of BFL and Avalon. If you're going to use the current price for the BFL unit then you must do the same for the Avalon, which is more than $10000 at current prices.

BFL has no prices for products. One must first have a product before it can be assigned a price.
So far, BFL is selling zero-coupon convertible debt with no maturity date.
At some point in the future, the debt might be convertible into a black box assembled by amateurs that might mine bitcoins for some indeterminate period of time.

And why should ANYONE listen to a nutjob like you that states in their signature that BFL has no working prototype in a thread that has a VIDEO OF A WORKING PROTOTYPE??

Your definition of evidence and mine differ substantially. If their prototype was working, they would announce they were moving directly to production and the discussion would move to yields and assembly times. They have admitted that they *still* cannot convert the prototype (assuming the video was not just smoke and mirrors and we were witnessing a semi-functional piece of hardware) into a product. They admitted that additional work on the boards is still being done. After that work has been attempted, they will test again and see if things are working well enough to turn it into a product.

Finally, one must take any press release from BFL with a grain of salt. They have been caught repeatedly posting photos with claims that were easily disproved by careful examination of the photo. Let us apply some devil's advocation to the video given BFL's track record of playing fast and loose with the truth:

Even if they got the prototype to mine for 20 seconds in a video, does it hard crash after 15 minutes?
Does it actually mine? We saw numbers printed on the screen which resemble the output of cgminer but could be spoofed with 5 minutes of effort.
Can it run at 98+% utilization 24 hours a day 7 days a week without crashing?
Will the board or chip burn out in catastrophic fashion necessitating an RMA after a few weeks of use?
Can they actually make the chip & board and sell it profitably? Or do they need order volume in the hundreds of thousands before they can make enough margin?


There is something that is preventing them from shipping product and being rich. Meeting the requirements of vaporware marketing FUD issued 7 months ago is not what is holding them up. There is a show stopper.

From Wikipedia:

"A prototype is an early sample or model built to test a concept or process or to act as a thing to be replicated or learned from. It is a term used in a variety of contexts, including semantics, design, electronics, and software programming. A prototype is designed to test and trial a new design to enhance precision by system analysts and users. Prototyping serves to provide specifications for a real, working system rather than a theoretical one."

I would say the video shows a working prototype in every sense of the definition if we are going by what normal people think is a prototype.  Stop spreading FUD. 

There are a lot of things that BFL has done wrong but some of your guys go so overboard it borders on insanity.  Do the community a favor and SHUT THE FUCK UP!

[Phinnaeus Gage]

CE is a self certification. http://export.gov/cemark/eg_main_017287.asp

FCC not sure if it applies to this piece of equipment.Thought it only applied to devices that knowingly gives off RF?

It sure does apply to BFL's line of miners, hence Josh assuring investors that they're on top of the FCC aspect, but only posting the following after a week of people repeatedly asking about such requirement.

Then it was proven that no such devices made their way to any FCC facility, a fact still true to this day.

When is the Jalapeno getting FCC approval?

Maybe two weeks? We are waiting for the test lab to issue the test report.

With the bump in power requirements on the MR and the new screen, we had to make changes, although the new screen is already certified.  We are doing all the devices at once, since they all share the same board.

[minternj]

I searched fcc site applicant name for  "altera" and  didnt find any reports. I would think Altera fpga would be there if this type of device is subject to fcc?

https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/GenericSearch.cfm

Inputting motorola did hit a ton though. Dunno.

[CoinHoarder]

When is the Jalapeno getting FCC approval?

Maybe two weeks? We are waiting for the test lab to issue the test report.

With the bump in power requirements on the MR and the new screen, we had to make changes, although the new screen is already certified.  We are doing all the devices at once, since they all share the same board.

That quote from Inaba makes me sick to my stomach... BFL are such lying scumbags.

[Minor Miner]

When is the Jalapeno getting FCC approval?

Maybe two weeks? We are waiting for the test lab to issue the test report.

With the bump in power requirements on the MR and the new screen, we had to make changes, although the new screen is already certified.  We are doing all the devices at once, since they all share the same board.

That quote from Inaba makes me sick to my stomach... BFL are such lying scumbags.

And that quote there is the difference between incompetence and "being late" and criminal fraud.   This is going to be terrible.   When you knowingly lie and that lie causes people harm (which it has since they have lost money), it is fraud.   I would say this is pretty provable in court that Josh HAD submitted these devices for FCC approval since the device was only completed 5 months after he made this lie.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

When is the Jalapeno getting FCC approval?

Maybe two weeks? We are waiting for the test lab to issue the test report.

With the bump in power requirements on the MR and the new screen, we had to make changes, although the new screen is already certified.  We are doing all the devices at once, since they all share the same board.

That quote from Inaba makes me sick to my stomach... BFL are such lying scumbags.

And even if his statement is true, which is 99.995 unlikely, once the new boards come in, they would all need to be tested again by the FCC according to their website, therefore adding a possible two more weeks to their scheduled delivery date, whenever that is.

The same true for CE approval and UL, of which is a given since the power has been greatly altered from the first design, e.g. the adding/deleting of components.

[minternj]

upon further research, altera is probably categorized as computer board which seems to be exempt. I'd say the completed unit does legally need fcc compliance, although its less stringent for a "unintended emitter".

[Phinnaeus Gage]

When is the Jalapeno getting FCC approval?

Maybe two weeks? We are waiting for the test lab to issue the test report.

With the bump in power requirements on the MR and the new screen, we had to make changes, although the new screen is already certified.  We are doing all the devices at once, since they all share the same board.

That quote from Inaba makes me sick to my stomach... BFL are such lying scumbags.

And that quote there is the difference between incompetence and "being late" and criminal fraud.   This is going to be terrible.   When you knowingly lie and that lie causes people harm (which it has since they have lost money), it is fraud.   I would say this is pretty provable in court that Josh HAD submitted these devices for FCC approval since the device was only completed 5 months after he made this lie.

And any judge would agree with your assessment unless, of course, Judge Coin Jedi is presiding, then all bets are off.

[k9quaint]

/snip
Prototyping serves to provide specifications for a real, working system rather than a theoretical one."

I would say the video shows a working prototype in every sense of the definition if we are going by what normal people think is a prototype.  Stop spreading FUD. 

There are a lot of things that BFL has done wrong but some of your guys go so overboard it borders on insanity.  Do the community a favor and SHUT THE FUCK UP!

Let us assume the video was not a total sham like other PR from BFL (pictures, ship dates, specifications, etc).

If the video showed a working prototype, they would manufacture to those specifications. They would certainly not say "when we get the new board our power problems should be fixed". The video purported to show a prototype that still needs more work. This is the admission of the BFL representative speaking in the video. They are still in the prototyping phase. They have been in this phase for 10 months. Until they actually manufacture product and ship it they will still be in the prototyping phase. Anyone can SHA-256 once, the challenge is doing it fast, cheaply, for long periods, in volume, and for a low price. They have not demonstrated a prototype of a product that can do this yet. When they show a video and say "ok, this is it, we don't have to make any more changes and our partners are doing a large volume chip run followed by a large volume PCB run" I will change my sig. Gladly as a matter of fact. This farce has gone on for far too long.

Now that previous paragraph involves almost no skepticism on my part. If I was being skeptical, I would ask for actual proof of mining. Not just numbers scrolling on a screen which could easily be spoofed. I would want to see the unit mining (with proof) for more than 20 seconds at a time. Running it in short bursts does nothing to reassure me that it can run for any length of time. I don't know how they would accomplish this other than to let an expert neutral observer with credibility (e.g. not Luke-jr logging in remotely) actually take physical possession of a unit, take it home and run it through the paces. BFL has so thoroughly poisoned their public relations well, they may only be able to prove this by actually shipping several hundred orders and have them operate successfully for 6 months or so in the marketplace.

Oh, and it would be nice if low post count sockpuppets didn't show up and tout BFL quite so often.

[dykast]

/snip
Prototyping serves to provide specifications for a real, working system rather than a theoretical one."

I would say the video shows a working prototype in every sense of the definition if we are going by what normal people think is a prototype.  Stop spreading FUD. 

There are a lot of things that BFL has done wrong but some of your guys go so overboard it borders on insanity.  Do the community a favor and SHUT THE FUCK UP!

Let us assume the video was not a total sham like other PR from BFL (pictures, ship dates, specifications, etc).

If the video showed a working prototype, they would manufacture to those specifications. They would certainly not say "when we get the new board our power problems should be fixed". The video purported to show a prototype that still needs more work. This is the admission of the BFL representative speaking in the video. They are still in the prototyping phase. They have been in this phase for 10 months. Until they actually manufacture product and ship it they will still be in the prototyping phase. Anyone can SHA-256 once, the challenge is doing it fast, cheaply, for long periods, in volume, and for a low price. They have not demonstrated a prototype of a product that can do this yet. When they show a video and say "ok, this is it, we don't have to make any more changes and our partners are doing a large volume chip run followed by a large volume PCB run" I will change my sig. Gladly as a matter of fact. This farce has gone on for far too long.

Now that previous paragraph involves almost no skepticism on my part. If I was being skeptical, I would ask for actual proof of mining. Not just numbers scrolling on a screen which could easily be spoofed. I would want to see the unit mining (with proof) for more than 20 seconds at a time. Running it in short bursts does nothing to reassure me that it can run for any length of time. I don't know how they would accomplish this other than to let an expert neutral observer with credibility (e.g. not Luke-jr logging in remotely) actually take physical possession of a unit, take it home and run it through the paces. BFL has so thoroughly poisoned their public relations well, they may only be able to prove this by actually shipping several hundred orders and have them operate successfully for 6 months or so in the marketplace.

Oh, and it would be nice if low post count sockpuppets didn't show up and tout BFL quite so often.

First off, might want to look at my join date..I am not a sock puppet for BFL, I just post when I feel it is necessary.  I won't waste my time arguing with someone who contradicts themselves with their own statements. 

If you really wanted to do some good for the community with your constant bashing for BFL, you should just stick to known facts.  The easiest one is telling people that if you preorder now, do not expect your unit for at least 4+ months at the very least.  I am sure that is something we can BOTH agree on that BFL does not tell customers.

[The-Real-Link]

While I find the video to be nice progress, I also received an email today regarding (finally) upgrading shipping order options.

The consistent thing I've been told was that when this would happen and be allowed to be changed was when shipping would be soon underway. 

Hopefully not too much longer now.  I'd imagine they just need to have the higher power spec boards mass-produced, then assembly and ship-out.

[k9quaint]

/snip
Prototyping serves to provide specifications for a real, working system rather than a theoretical one."

I would say the video shows a working prototype in every sense of the definition if we are going by what normal people think is a prototype.  Stop spreading FUD. 

There are a lot of things that BFL has done wrong but some of your guys go so overboard it borders on insanity.  Do the community a favor and SHUT THE FUCK UP!

Let us assume the video was not a total sham like other PR from BFL (pictures, ship dates, specifications, etc).

If the video showed a working prototype, they would manufacture to those specifications. They would certainly not say "when we get the new board our power problems should be fixed". The video purported to show a prototype that still needs more work. This is the admission of the BFL representative speaking in the video. They are still in the prototyping phase. They have been in this phase for 10 months. Until they actually manufacture product and ship it they will still be in the prototyping phase. Anyone can SHA-256 once, the challenge is doing it fast, cheaply, for long periods, in volume, and for a low price. They have not demonstrated a prototype of a product that can do this yet. When they show a video and say "ok, this is it, we don't have to make any more changes and our partners are doing a large volume chip run followed by a large volume PCB run" I will change my sig. Gladly as a matter of fact. This farce has gone on for far too long.

Now that previous paragraph involves almost no skepticism on my part. If I was being skeptical, I would ask for actual proof of mining. Not just numbers scrolling on a screen which could easily be spoofed. I would want to see the unit mining (with proof) for more than 20 seconds at a time. Running it in short bursts does nothing to reassure me that it can run for any length of time. I don't know how they would accomplish this other than to let an expert neutral observer with credibility (e.g. not Luke-jr logging in remotely) actually take physical possession of a unit, take it home and run it through the paces. BFL has so thoroughly poisoned their public relations well, they may only be able to prove this by actually shipping several hundred orders and have them operate successfully for 6 months or so in the marketplace.

Oh, and it would be nice if low post count sockpuppets didn't show up and tout BFL quite so often.

First off, might want to look at my join date..I am not a sock puppet for BFL, I just post when I feel it is necessary.  I won't waste my time arguing with someone who contradicts themselves with their own statements. 

I did not contradict myself.  I contradicted you. Then I called you a shill for BFL, which may or may not be true. I can't control wether or not you support them in the face of relentless evidence to the contrary. I am still not contradicting myself. See me not contradicting myself? Watch carefully as I do not contradict myself. 

If you really wanted to do some good for the community with your constant bashing for BFL, you should just stick to known facts.  The easiest one is telling people that if you preorder now, do not expect your unit for at least 4+ months at the very least.  I am sure that is something we can BOTH agree on that BFL does not tell customers.

I do. Thus my sig. A video posted by a company that has lied for 7 months, taken a lot of money from a lot of people, delivered no ASICs, and is run by a felon convicted of mail fraud for running a $20M scam is not a "fact". It is evidence that could be true or it could be misinformation. We do agree that BFL probably isn't giving anyone who orders a unit now anything for at least 4 months.

I will be glad if BFL finally ships something real. I might even buy one if they prove to be a quality product and can ship in a reasonable amount of time. I am tired of the relentless scamming that goes on in these forums because so many people engage in magical thinking instead of critical thinking.

As soon as BFL declares that they have sent the specs to the factory to produce the chips & PCBs in large volumes, I will amend the part to say they claim to have a working prototype that has entered production. I think posting the videos is a good thing for BFL (presuming they are not just more smoke and mirrors), it works towards recovering some of the credibility they have squandered over the last 7 months.

[Tamerz]

This is excellent news! Now they have something to ship to the various labs to obtain CE, UL and FCC approval for, unless Sonny has an in with them folks in not having to abide by governmental regulations, thus avoiding the myriad of fines.

You keep posting this without answering why they need that when the BFL FPGA did not? There are no CE, UL, or FCC tags anywhere on it, yet they shipped plenty of them. As far as I can tell, if it doesn't directly deal with AC, and doesn't directly deal with network, it shouldn't need any of that.

Does any custom miner out there now have any of those?

[Phinnaeus Gage]

This is excellent news! Now they have something to ship to the various labs to obtain CE, UL and FCC approval for, unless Sonny has an in with them folks in not having to abide by governmental regulations, thus avoiding the myriad of fines.

You keep posting this without answering why they need that when the BFL FPGA did not? There are no CE, UL, or FCC tags anywhere on it, yet they shipped plenty of them. As far as I can tell, if it doesn't directly deal with AC, and doesn't directly deal with network, it shouldn't need any of that.

Does any custom miner out there now have any of those?

Clearly then, any FPGA miner that they shipped was in violation of US law if it didn't at least have an FCC tag in place. Any unit sent to a municipality in the US that requires a UL lag clearly puts them and the customer who received it in violation of the law.

Ergo, Sonny Vleisides is clearly breaking the law, coupled with having some of his clients break it as well, depending on which municipality they live in. Circumnavigating CE regulations is a completely different matter altogether.

The FCC requirement is a concern of BFL, otherwise they wouldn't have posted that they were in the process of obtaining approval.

[Tamerz]

Clearly then, any FPGA miner that they shipped was in violation of US law if it didn't at least have an FCC tag in place. Any unit sent to a municipality in the US that requires a UL lag clearly puts them and the customer who received it in violation of the law.

Ergo, Sonny Vleisides is clearly breaking the law, coupled with having some of his clients break it as well, depending on which municipality they live in. Circumnavigating CE regulations is a completely different matter altogether.

The FCC requirement is a concern of BFL, otherwise they wouldn't have posted that they were in the process of obtaining approval.

What about the other mining devices? Do they have any of those certifications?

BTW I'm not being a troll. I seriously don't know the answer.

[jspielberg]

I would doubt Avalon's are UL certified... but I think they enter the country as engineering samples... soooo  /shrug

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I would doubt Avalon's are UL certified... but I think they enter the country as engineering samples... soooo  /shrug

Unfortunately, I have no insight as to what Avalon may, or may not, be required to do to ship such wares to the US. But, BFL being Inc. in the US is a completely different issue, thus a host of regulations they must comply to, the FCC one being the main one.

[Tamerz]

Unfortunately, I have no insight as to what Avalon may, or may not, be required to do to ship such wares to the US. But, BFL being Inc. in the US is a completely different issue, thus a host of regulations they must comply to, the FCC one being the main one.

But that doesn't make any sense. Why does my TV from China have to have that and UL? There has to be something more to it.