BFL 5 GH/s Miner Demo

[jerye]

Anyone seen this yet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uez9AVfDQIg

[1715188828]

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[wormbog]

Looks promising!

[soniq]

rubbing hands together

[Frankie Delaney]

36.5 watts for 5gh/s. that's 500 watts to match a 3 module avalon, that's not 40-50% less than the competition. 2 of these to match an erupter blade would end up at 73 watts to the erupters 83.

All this wait and they've missed by that much.

[segfault88]

Seriously, I could care less exactly how many watts this thing uses - as long as it doesn't catch fire or melt itself as far as I'm concerned it is good to go! Get in production and ship me mine! Wasting a few more KW/H per month matters much less than the ramp up of difficulty that is going on now.

[dbasql]

I would be great if they posted the video on a site that actually worked. God Damn Youtube fucking sucks.

[shackleford]

4/16 "There's plenty of doubt, it has nothing to do with us. It's probably someone relaying blocks through EMC I would imagine. BFL is not mining on the live network."

Somebody forgot to switch pools....

[erk]

Anyone seen this yet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uez9AVfDQIg

It's a different case shape to the images on their website. A lot smaller than I imagined. I thought it would be about the size of a Mac Mini or so.

36.5 watts for 5gh/s. that's 500 watts to match a 3 module avalon, that's not 40-50% less than the competition. 2 of these to match an erupter blade would end up at 73 watts to the erupters 83.

All this wait and they've missed by that much.

That's incorrect math, the device obviously has other components in it than just the ASIC module, which it doesn't need multiples of, so you can't multiply to total power consumption by 12 (which was 32 not 36.5watts)  and say a 60Ghz version would use 384watts.

The video also said something about a revised PCB drawing less.

[computerparts]

4/16 "There's plenty of doubt, it has nothing to do with us. It's probably someone relaying blocks through EMC I would imagine. BFL is not mining on the live network."

Somebody forgot to switch pools....

Exactly. Looks like another lie from BFL. BUSTED!!

[logicbomb666]

I like how he says, "looks like about what you would expect." 

No, that doesn't look about what I would expect.  When I purchased my 4.5 GH miner it was way smaller than that, and the 30 GH and 60 GH miners were that size.

[PeZ]

A whole lot larger than a 4.5GH/s Jalapeno - where are the Jalapenos?

[John Self]

A whole lot larger than a 4.5GH/s Jalapeno - where are the Jalapenos?

[dave3]

Yeah, it seems with the increased power usage comes increased heat, so now what was supposed to be a coffee warmer needs to be actively cooled with fans, and gets put in a larger case.

And did you hear the fan/s in the video?  I wonder what the larger 60 GH device will sound like.  I was really looking forward to the silence that the ASICs were supposed to bring.  Oh well.

[phr33]

I like how he says, "looks like about what you would expect."  

No, that doesn't look about what I would expect.  When I purchased my 4.5 GH miner it was way smaller than that, and the 30 GH and 60 GH miners were that size.

  Exactly my thought. -"Eh, no. It's quite different from what the Jalapeno was supposed to look like. Andthe IDLE power is higher than the expected PEAK power!" (Sleep power is suggested to be lower though...)

Oh well, still, get those devices out the door. Pronto.

[Turbor]

I like what I see. Just hope they don't take this cheap screaming fans they used for the singles.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

4/16 "There's plenty of doubt, it has nothing to do with us. It's probably someone relaying blocks through EMC I would imagine. BFL is not mining on the live network."

Somebody forgot to switch pools....

Exactly. Looks like another lie from BFL. BUSTED!!

Please explain this more to those of us sitting in the back of the short bus. Also, I don't understand the 4/16 reference.

[Syke]

You can't compare the wattage on a BFL with an Avalon. An Avalon is a self-contained mining device. Add in the wattage for the laptop and the BFL is less efficient than an Avalon! ROFLMAO.

[minternj]

He's trying to say they they lied about not mining out in public pools. But then people complained that the other video didn't show real mining. Every BFL thread going to be a shitshow trollfest until they ship something. Rightfully so i guess.

[becasual]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSu5Yyc1bEM

They have this video up also!

[roy7]

He's trying to say they they lied about not mining out in public pools. But then people complained that the other video didn't show real mining.

Yeah I'd certainly prefer to see "demo" videos that are on a live public server.

[erk]

You can't compare the wattage on a BFL with an Avalon. An Avalon is a self-contained mining device. Add in the wattage for the laptop and the BFL is less efficient than an Avalon! ROFLMAO.

You are probably wrong in a couple of asumptions. For starters you can use something smaller than a laptop, eg. a Raspberry Pi. Secondly you only need the one to talk to the 5GHs, 25GHs, or 50Ghs products, at the high end power consumption the controlling computer becomes insignificant.

I understand you are just trolling the BFL products, I don't have a problem with that, to a certain extent they deserve it,  I am just pointing out the misinformation for actual people reading the thread that might have bought the product.

[Syke]

You can't compare the wattage on a BFL with an Avalon. An Avalon is a self-contained mining device. Add in the wattage for the laptop and the BFL is less efficient than an Avalon! ROFLMAO.

You are probably wrong in a couple of asumptions. For starters you can use something smaller than a laptop, eg. a Raspberry Pi. Secondly you only need the one to talk to the 5GHs, 25GHs, or 50Ghs products, at the high end power consumption the controlling computer becomes insignificant.

That's not what the demo showed, now was it? They showed the power draw minus the computer, which is not a fair comparison to a complete Avalon.

[Gomeler]

You can't compare the wattage on a BFL with an Avalon. An Avalon is a self-contained mining device. Add in the wattage for the laptop and the BFL is less efficient than an Avalon! ROFLMAO.

You are probably wrong in a couple of asumptions. For starters you can use something smaller than a laptop, eg. a Raspberry Pi. Secondly you only need the one to talk to the 5GHs, 25GHs, or 50Ghs products, at the high end power consumption the controlling computer becomes insignificant.

That's not what the demo showed, now was it? They showed the power draw minus the computer, which is not a fair comparison to a complete Avalon.

Ok, add 2.5 watts and $50 for a raspberry Pi to control your BFL rigs. I enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing but this horse has been beat so savagely that it more resembles ground beef than a horse.

[shackleford]

He's trying to say they they lied about not mining out in public pools. But then people complained that the other video didn't show real mining.

Yeah I'd certainly prefer to see "demo" videos that are on a live public server.

I can't remember where I saw it but somebody spotted the BFL_ASIC_DEMO account live on EMC a long time ago before it was changed to private. This makes it official that it is their account. Personally I don't care that they mine for testing it makes no sense not to (especially after they are shipping). Just don’t lie about it, you get caught then look like a giant douche.

[erk]

You can't compare the wattage on a BFL with an Avalon. An Avalon is a self-contained mining device. Add in the wattage for the laptop and the BFL is less efficient than an Avalon! ROFLMAO.

You are probably wrong in a couple of asumptions. For starters you can use something smaller than a laptop, eg. a Raspberry Pi. Secondly you only need the one to talk to the 5GHs, 25GHs, or 50Ghs products, at the high end power consumption the controlling computer becomes insignificant.

That's not what the demo showed, now was it? They showed the power draw minus the computer, which is not a fair comparison to a complete Avalon.

Have you even bothered to do the math?

12 x BFL 5.3GHs = 63.6GHs
12 x BFL 32watts = 384watts

http://garzikrants.blogspot.com.au/2013/02/avalon-miner-power-usage.html

Avalon = 620 watts that leaves you over 230watts for your laptop or whatever to come out ahead in efficiency. That's assuming you were silly enough to use 12 smaller units instead of say a single 50GHs plus a 25Ghz unit.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

He's trying to say they they lied about not mining out in public pools. But then people complained that the other video didn't show real mining.

Yeah I'd certainly prefer to see "demo" videos that are on a live public server.

I can't remember where I saw it but somebody spotted the BFL_ASIC_DEMO account live on EMC a long time ago before it was changed to private. This makes it official that it is their account. Personally I don't care that they mine for testing it makes no sense not to (especially after they are shipping). Just don’t lie about it, you get caught then look like a giant douche.

I, too, care less where they test, but it's the deceit that stuck in my craw. Same with Sonny, for I have no problem with his checkered past, and he seems like a nice guy and all, but to cover up, deny, etc., the information after the fact has been revealed made folks like me wonder what else is being hidden. Then when all the tiny missteps start adding up, we end up with bitcoiners against bitcoiners, instead of working together toward a common goal.

[roy7]

Didn't the "we aren't mining on public pools" statement stem more from people accusing BFL of having the equipment ready to ship but they were using it for their personal mining instead? Of course they should do some testing/demos on actual public pools, those are the pools customers will be connecting to.

[Syke]

5.3 GH/s @ 36 watts + 20 watts for laptop = 10.6 watts/ghps
68 GH/s @ 620 watts = 9.1 watts/ghps
Efficiency: Avalon

5.3 GH/s @ $149 = $28/ghps
68 GH/s @ $1500 = $22/ghps
Price: Avalon

June 2012 -> May+++ 2013 = 11+++ months
Sep 2012 -> Apr 2013 = 7 months
Time to market: Avalon

Triple crown goes to: Avalon!

[roy7]

Triple crown goes to: Avalon!

Avalon > BFL perhaps, but BFL is in my budget and Avalon isn't even close.

[minternj]

Whats the point of all this comparison? Don't think there's a dispute that anyone here would want a Avalon over bfl at this point is there(since there is no bfl shipped yet)? At current difficulty no one cares about power consumption or original cost/hash. So again wtf is hte poitn of this comparison. Take this up in like 6 months. Then you can compare both till your excel sheets are fucking REF'ed out.

[Frizz23]

A whole lot larger than a 4.5GH/s Jalapeno - where are the Jalapenos?

Everything looks a bit different now:

[PuertoLibre]

Yeah, it seems with the increased power usage comes increased heat, so now what was supposed to be a coffee warmer needs to be actively cooled with fans, and gets put in a larger case.

And did you hear the fan/s in the video?  I wonder what the larger 60 GH device will sound like.  I was really looking forward to the silence that the ASICs were supposed to bring.  Oh well.

"In 20 years people will learn that Josh was the first to invent sustainable Fusion reaction from super heating Coffee molecules.

He will say in 10 years that you can have your latte hot and save the world from an energy crisis. It is a very famous speech...I assure you." --John Titor

For those that don't know, the Butterfly Labs symbol is an envisioning of Josh's super collider experiments.

[/Joke?]

[PuertoLibre]

You can't compare the wattage on a BFL with an Avalon. An Avalon is a self-contained mining device. Add in the wattage for the laptop and the BFL is less efficient than an Avalon! ROFLMAO.

You are probably wrong in a couple of asumptions. For starters you can use something smaller than a laptop, eg. a Raspberry Pi. Secondly you only need the one to talk to the 5GHs, 25GHs, or 50Ghs products, at the high end power consumption the controlling computer becomes insignificant.

That's not what the demo showed, now was it? They showed the power draw minus the computer, which is not a fair comparison to a complete Avalon.

Details details.

The "Tethered wattage" problem...

-------------------------

I am sure the demo guy can just turn off the laptop and save a few watts in the calculation....er...wait....

5.3 GH/s @ 36 watts + 20 watts for laptop = 10.6 watts/ghps
68 GH/s @ 620 watts = 9.1 watts/ghps
Efficiency: Avalon

5.3 GH/s @ $149 = $28/ghps
68 GH/s @ $1500 = $22/ghps
Price: Avalon

June 2012 -> May+++ 2013 = 11+++ months
Sep 2012 -> Apr 2013 = 7 months
Time to market: Avalon

Triple crown goes to: Avalon!

5.3 GH/s @ $149 = $28/ghps

It actually costs $274.

Triple crown goes to: Avalon!

Avalon > BFL perhaps, but BFL is in my budget and Avalon isn't even close.

Air costs less to produce. Substance is expensive.

[PeZ]

All this Avalon promoting is great, but how many of you actually have an Avalon in your household?

[PuertoLibre]

All this Avalon promoting is great, but how many of you actually have an Avalon in your household?

?

I do.

You must be new here...

[funnow]

If you listen to all the video you will hear that the PCB is still under development, so probably even more power down.

[computerparts]

A whole lot larger than a 4.5GH/s Jalapeno - where are the Jalapenos?

Everything looks a bit different now:

[dave3]

Didn't the "we aren't mining on public pools" statement stem more from people accusing BFL of having the equipment ready to ship but they were using it for their personal mining instead? Of course they should do some testing/demos on actual public pools, those are the pools customers will be connecting to.

No, they said they were only going to test on a testnet of some sort.  No live mining.  But they said a lot of things.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/pre-sales-questions/52-asic-pre-shipment-testing-policy.html

[marra]

New ASIC machines will show before the BFLs due to chips entering the market. Power consumption argument that BFL beats everything isn't legit. First, it draws the same on that small mutant machine as avalon, the other machines still don't exist, and there are parts of the world where even GPU mining will never go away due to cheap electricity. It'll always bring fair profit in fiat terms.

People who have fallen for the asic 65nm technology just because it draws less than 110nm didn't do the math correctly.

[erk]

New ASIC machines will show before the BFLs due to chips entering the market. Power consumption argument that BFL beats everything isn't legit. First, it draws the same on that small mutant machine as avalon, the other machines still don't exist, and there are parts of the world where even GPU mining will never go away due to cheap electricity. It'll always bring fair profit in fiat terms.

People who have fallen for the asic 65nm technology just because it draws less than 110nm didn't do the math correctly.

BFL     
32watts/5.3GHs= 6.03watts/GHs

Avalon 
620watts/66GHs= 9.39watts/GHs

Is that the "same" I think not. What part of the math needs doing correctly again?

[Dexter770221]

What is efficiency of 1250W power supply when it delivers only 3% of maximum load?
Below 50%. Kill-A-Watt shows 36W so  power draw of the unit alone is propably 20W. With 25W power supply it should be able to see that kind of figures.
Just saying....

[mrb]

5.3 GH/s @ 36 watts + 20 watts for laptop = 10.6 watts/ghps
68 GH/s @ 620 watts = 9.1 watts/ghps
Efficiency: Avalon

That is an unfair comparison. Drive the Single with a 5-10W mini-computer board similar to the TP-LINK in Avalon (instead of a 20W laptop), and the BFL solution becomes more efficient than Avalon.

[PulsedMedia]

What is efficiency of 1250W power supply when it delivers only 3% of maximum load?
Below 50%. Kill-A-Watt shows 36W so  power draw of the unit alone is propably 20W. With 25W power supply it should be able to see that kind of figures.
Just saying....

Yea it would be far below 50% most likely, i bet someone can find the power efficiency curve by looking up the model used

EDIT:
Quick googling yielded no tests for below 330W.
But assuming it's even 70% at practically idle the unit is then drawing 22.6W

[nathanrees19]

4/16 "There's plenty of doubt, it has nothing to do with us. It's probably someone relaying blocks through EMC I would imagine. BFL is not mining on the live network."

Somebody forgot to switch pools....

You're confusing the supposed large-scale mining conspiracy with a single fucking 5GH/s demo unit. A one minute video demo is not what any serious miner would consider to be "mining".

Here's a pro-tip: if they were running a secret mining operation, then they wouldn't be running it from that laptop.

4/16 "There's plenty of doubt, it has nothing to do with us. It's probably someone relaying blocks through EMC I would imagine. BFL is not mining on the live network."

Somebody forgot to switch pools....

Exactly. Looks like another lie from BFL. BUSTED!!

You butthurt pre-orderers are really scraping the bottom of the barrel to find more reasons to hate them.

[nathanrees19]

5.3 GH/s @ 36 watts + 20 watts for laptop = 10.6 watts/ghps
68 GH/s @ 620 watts = 9.1 watts/ghps
Efficiency: Avalon

5.3 GH/s @ $149 = $28/ghps
68 GH/s @ $1500 = $22/ghps
Price: Avalon

June 2012 -> May+++ 2013 = 11+++ months
Sep 2012 -> Apr 2013 = 7 months
Time to market: Avalon

Triple crown goes to: Avalon!

What the fuck. The low end unit was never intended to compete with Avalon. Their fucked 50 or 60 gh/s singles should be using around 200-400 watts. Add in a raspberry pi and it's still way less than Avalon.

[nathanrees19]

5.3 GH/s @ $149 = $28/ghps

It actually costs $274.

They are comparing the historic prices of BFL and Avalon. If you're going to use the current price for the BFL unit then you must do the same for the Avalon, which is more than $10000 at current prices.

[marra]

New ASIC machines will show before the BFLs due to chips entering the market. Power consumption argument that BFL beats everything isn't legit. First, it draws the same on that small mutant machine as avalon, the other machines still don't exist, and there are parts of the world where even GPU mining will never go away due to cheap electricity. It'll always bring fair profit in fiat terms.

People who have fallen for the asic 65nm technology just because it draws less than 110nm didn't do the math correctly.

BFL     
32watts/5.3GHs= 6.03watts/GHs

Avalon 
620watts/66GHs= 9.39watts/GHs

Is that the "same" I think not. What part of the math needs doing correctly again?

the part of math which bfl potential customers missed is that 110nm makes money for the last 3 months and that it didn't put GPU rigs out of the game...

[BR0KK]

5.3 GH/s @ 36 watts + 20 watts for laptop = 10.6 watts/ghps
68 GH/s @ 620 watts = 9.1 watts/ghps
Efficiency: Avalon

5.3 GH/s @ $149 = $28/ghps
68 GH/s @ $1500 = $22/ghps
Price: Avalon

June 2012 -> May+++ 2013 = 11+++ months
Sep 2012 -> Apr 2013 = 7 months
Time to market: Avalon

Triple crown goes to: Avalon!

What the fuck. The low end unit was never intended to compete with Avalon. Their fucked 50 or 60 gh/s singles should be using around 200-400 watts. Add in a raspberry pi and it's still way less than Avalon.

What about the statement that this coffee warmer would run from USB Power?....

[JimiQ84]

What the fuck. The low end unit was never intended to compete with Avalon. Their fucked 50 or 60 gh/s singles should be using around 200-400 watts. Add in a raspberry pi and it's still way less than Avalon.

What about the statement that this coffee warmer would run from USB Power?....

Well, when it will ship, we would already have USB 5.0, which has power output 50W 

[barneyss]

the big problem that came out these days is da power supply.
5 gh's is using about 36w, how much will be using a 1500 gh's?
a normal power supply wont be able to keep it workin, you'll need to set up a huge supply for that stuff

[marra]

the big problem that came out these days is da power supply.
5 gh's is using about 36w, how much will be using a 1500 gh's?
a normal power supply wont be able to keep it workin, you'll need to set up a huge supply for that stuff

minirig product design is apparently abandoned, 3.5kw per one household switch is max.

[barneyss]

the big problem that came out these days is da power supply.
5 gh's is using about 36w, how much will be using a 1500 gh's?
a normal power supply wont be able to keep it workin, you'll need to set up a huge supply for that stuff

minirig product design is apparently abandoned, 3.5kw per one household switch is max.

looks like 3.5kw wont be enough to run 1500 gh's, at least i hope so

[BR0KK]

the big problem that came out these days is da power supply.
5 gh's is using about 36w, how much will be using a 1500 gh's?
a normal power supply wont be able to keep it workin, you'll need to set up a huge supply for that stuff

minirig product design is apparently abandoned, 3.5kw per one household switch is max.

Someone calculated it to aprox. 8 kw/h.....

[marra]

the big problem that came out these days is da power supply.
5 gh's is using about 36w, how much will be using a 1500 gh's?
a normal power supply wont be able to keep it workin, you'll need to set up a huge supply for that stuff

minirig product design is apparently abandoned, 3.5kw per one household switch is max.

Someone calculated it to aprox. 8 kw/h.....

Exactly, and BFL said on their latest version of website that it's out of stock... Another lie...

[barneyss]

the big problem that came out these days is da power supply.
5 gh's is using about 36w, how much will be using a 1500 gh's?
a normal power supply wont be able to keep it workin, you'll need to set up a huge supply for that stuff

minirig product design is apparently abandoned, 3.5kw per one household switch is max.

Someone calculated it to aprox. 8 kw/h.....

if u got a nuclear power station at home it wont be a big problem

[erk]

5.3 GH/s @ 36 watts + 20 watts for laptop = 10.6 watts/ghps
68 GH/s @ 620 watts = 9.1 watts/ghps
Efficiency: Avalon

That is an unfair comparison. Drive the Single with a 5-10W mini-computer board similar to the TP-LINK in Avalon (instead of a 20W laptop), and the BFL solution becomes more efficient than Avalon.

The guy is obviously just trolling, you can tell by the repeated misquote of the 32watt BFL power consumption, best to ignore him. There is half the guts of a laptop in the Avalon, like TP-LINK, spartan 6, Ethernet, USB, FTDI, WiFi, there is no reason why you can't use similar bit's to control the BFL unit, nobody says you need a laptop!

Even though the Avalon is old 110nm technology, if someone put up an online shop the Avalon ASIC powered boards for sale when the chips have shipped and Avalon has published their PCB design, I will buy some for the heck of it. Same goes, if I hear factual reports of the BFL units being delivered and reviewed I will order one or two. Both technologies are great compared to GPU mining.

[marra]

the good thing with the abandoned minirigs is that there will be available cases for single and mini single assembly.

[Marrs]

the good thing with the abandoned minirigs is that there will be available cases for single and mini single assembly.

Lol, yeah. I'd take mine in a mini rig case. It might even fit two or three... ;-)

[ursa]

That much waiting time for a coffee warmer and i will still drink my coffee cold?
  I want my money back

[barneyss]

That much waiting time for a coffee warmer and i will still drink my coffee cold?
  I want my money back

if u got a pre-order for a 5 gh's we can trade about it

[jspielberg]

Well... I think BFL is actually getting close to shipping their 1-chip Single (at least... that is what it looks like to me).

[Transisto]

Well... I think BFL is actually getting close to shipping their 1-chip Single (at least... that is what it looks like to me).

This 1 chip thing is a Jalapeno

[barneyss]

Well... I think BFL is actually getting close to shipping their 1-chip Single (at least... that is what it looks like to me).

close to shipping is not enought when u've be waiting all this time, they should be shipping from last year, anyway, really hope they ship only 5 gh's for the first 30000000 months

[eclipse81]

Not in anyway supporting the debacle that is the BFL product line development but in the USA a minir rig at 8kw would be doable on residential circuitry.

50amp x 240 volts =12000 x .8(maximum load NEC is 80%)=9600 watts

Now I know a lot of people do not have a 50 amp 240v line in their house but it is not rare by any means.Some electric ranges use it.Also it is not that big of a deal to run that circuit,however it could get expensive if the run is really long.

Most modern houses in the US can handle 20kw easily and most apartments.Even a Super LOW 100 amp service at could handle it.

On another note man.....BFL will never be able to get pre-order financing again.(unless I seriously underestimate the fanboys)who would ever believe anything they hav to say about Dates,Performance, and for that matter aesthetics.

Buddy of mine jumped on the BFL wagon in July,so around December when shipping was "just around the corner" he built a really nice walnut and cherry rack/hideaway shelf to appease the wife.She said if shes gonna a bunch of black boxes in her house they better be able to be hidden when guests arrive.But guess what..............the new jalapenos wont fit....and since his singles will probably be 2 little singles plus 2 LARGER jalapenos to hit the 60/gh mark his whole design is worthless.

Maybe i will buy it form him cheap for my DIY avalon chip based Modules..man BFL must hate their customers

[solitude]

he built a really nice walnut and cherry rack/hideaway shelf to appease the wife.

>Getting married any year after The Year of Our Lord Nineteen Hundred and Fifty A.D.

I seriously hope you guys don't do this.

[ebildude123]

Hope they ship soon, just wish they made them smaller 

[PulsedMedia]

the big problem that came out these days is da power supply.
5 gh's is using about 36w, how much will be using a 1500 gh's?
a normal power supply wont be able to keep it workin, you'll need to set up a huge supply for that stuff

Just couple posts prior i showed that the actual draw of the device is more like in the 22.6W range. Well, it's actually probably a lot less, i did not count in the PSU idle power.
36W at outlet for a 1250W Corsair ZX PSU which is 80+ Gold, running at practically idle.

[PulsedMedia]

the big problem that came out these days is da power supply.
5 gh's is using about 36w, how much will be using a 1500 gh's?
a normal power supply wont be able to keep it workin, you'll need to set up a huge supply for that stuff

minirig product design is apparently abandoned, 3.5kw per one household switch is max.

Wrong.
16A * 230V = 3680W maybe but due to PSU efficiency, nature of A/C usual maximum suggested draw is just 80% which is 2944W
As A/C power is a since wave, drawing out 16A @ midpoint of wave is just 150V = 2400W max, PSUs try to optimize to take their power at the sine peaks, but they often miss the mark of their claims, thus D/C operators often recommend 70% of the max, which is 2576W

[barneyss]

good news
btl just answer me on fb

Pedro Yule question: will we need a power supply for 5 gh's?
Mi piace · Rispondi · 6 ore fa

    Butterfly Labs We will ship the product with a power supply.
    Mi piace · 1 · 21 minuti fa

[jspielberg]

Gosh... Those asicminer auction bidders are going to be kicking themselves if bfl is able to ship these 1chip singles or jalapeños or whatever they are calling these 5Mh/s things quickly and in any volume.  I think the going rate is currently $800/1Gh (~70+ btc Per blade).  They must really think BFL isn't close.  

I think using the single sc PCB and just using one chip is a pretty shrewd move.  I felt didn't think they would go there... Way to make lemonade with the lemons.

[barneyss]

its lookin like only 5 gh's is gettin ready to ship and so im happy

[jspielberg]

Yeah.... It looks like they will have a bunch to redesign with there power problems if they want to stick to there original chip density... But I wouldn't be surprised if they end up just shipping these signs with maybe half the original chips to deal with the unexpected power issues.   Surely the PCB is dirt cheap.  So what do you guys think.  Will they be able to produce a 15Gh (3 chip) or do you think they will hit the wall at 10Gh

[erk]

its lookin like only 5 gh's is gettin ready to ship and so im happy

That product will suit the majority of people who have been use to GPU mining, and want to go a bit faster.

[barneyss]

atm i would be happy with a 5 gh's coming tomorrow.
i dont mind about a 50 gh's or a 1500 gh's so if it have problem, better, im just waiting my 5 gh's

[roy7]

its lookin like only 5 gh's is gettin ready to ship and so im happy

That product will suit the majority of people who have been use to GPU mining, and want to go a bit faster.

I fit that boat. I paid $270 for a ~600MH/s 7950 video card. Similar priced BFL device is about 8x faster than that. I'd certainly love to buy 2-3 little 5Gh/s ASIC miners than 2-3 more video cards.

[creativex]

its lookin like only 5 gh's is gettin ready to ship and so im happy

That product will suit the majority of people who have been use to GPU mining, and want to go a bit faster.

I fit that boat. I paid $270 for a ~600MH/s 7950 video card. Similar priced BFL device is about 8x faster than that. I'd certainly love to buy 2-3 little 5Gh/s ASIC miners than 2-3 more video cards.

The GPUs can mine more alt chains, while the BFL product can only mine sha-256, but the most important factor is that you can order the 7950s today and have them within a week. BFL time to delivery? Not a clue...six months after their original ship date.

[barneyss]

omg... ebay is full of scammers... just bought a 12 gh's quad core with 7970 inside, when i said seller that i was going to refund after opening machine and looking for my video board he cancelled the trade...

[BR0KK]

I hope that the BFL history will not be forgotten..... "Singles(little/SC) and minirig under the carpet style".....

[k9quaint]

5.3 GH/s @ $149 = $28/ghps

It actually costs $274.

They are comparing the historic prices of BFL and Avalon. If you're going to use the current price for the BFL unit then you must do the same for the Avalon, which is more than $10000 at current prices.

BFL has no prices for products. One must first have a product before it can be assigned a price.
So far, BFL is selling zero-coupon convertible debt with no maturity date.
At some point in the future, the debt might be convertible into a black box assembled by amateurs that might mine bitcoins for some indeterminate period of time.

[dykast]

5.3 GH/s @ $149 = $28/ghps

It actually costs $274.

They are comparing the historic prices of BFL and Avalon. If you're going to use the current price for the BFL unit then you must do the same for the Avalon, which is more than $10000 at current prices.

BFL has no prices for products. One must first have a product before it can be assigned a price.
So far, BFL is selling zero-coupon convertible debt with no maturity date.
At some point in the future, the debt might be convertible into a black box assembled by amateurs that might mine bitcoins for some indeterminate period of time.

And why should ANYONE listen to a nutjob like you that states in their signature that BFL has no working prototype in a thread that has a VIDEO OF A WORKING PROTOTYPE??

[barneyss]

the only btl working atm is 5 gh's
for 25, 50 and 1500... i rlly dont care, im poor ^_^

[aTg]

Beautiful concept:



 

[BR0KK]

5.3 GH/s @ $149 = $28/ghps

It actually costs $274.

They are comparing the historic prices of BFL and Avalon. If you're going to use the current price for the BFL unit then you must do the same for the Avalon, which is more than $10000 at current prices.

BFL has no prices for products. One must first have a product before it can be assigned a price.
So far, BFL is selling zero-coupon convertible debt with no maturity date.
At some point in the future, the debt might be convertible into a black box assembled by amateurs that might mine bitcoins for some indeterminate period of time.

And why should ANYONE listen to a nutjob like you that states in their signature that BFL has no working prototype in a thread that has a VIDEO OF A WORKING PROTOTYPE??

Is there proof that they have? ..... Do you have one?
Do you trust luke-jr or them?

I wouldn't since everything could be staged!

 

[k9quaint]

5.3 GH/s @ $149 = $28/ghps

It actually costs $274.

They are comparing the historic prices of BFL and Avalon. If you're going to use the current price for the BFL unit then you must do the same for the Avalon, which is more than $10000 at current prices.

BFL has no prices for products. One must first have a product before it can be assigned a price.
So far, BFL is selling zero-coupon convertible debt with no maturity date.
At some point in the future, the debt might be convertible into a black box assembled by amateurs that might mine bitcoins for some indeterminate period of time.

And why should ANYONE listen to a nutjob like you that states in their signature that BFL has no working prototype in a thread that has a VIDEO OF A WORKING PROTOTYPE??

Your definition of evidence and mine differ substantially. If their prototype was working, they would announce they were moving directly to production and the discussion would move to yields and assembly times. They have admitted that they *still* cannot convert the prototype (assuming the video was not just smoke and mirrors and we were witnessing a semi-functional piece of hardware) into a product. They admitted that additional work on the boards is still being done. After that work has been attempted, they will test again and see if things are working well enough to turn it into a product.

Finally, one must take any press release from BFL with a grain of salt. They have been caught repeatedly posting photos with claims that were easily disproved by careful examination of the photo. Let us apply some devil's advocation to the video given BFL's track record of playing fast and loose with the truth:

Even if they got the prototype to mine for 20 seconds in a video, does it hard crash after 15 minutes?
Does it actually mine? We saw numbers printed on the screen which resemble the output of cgminer but could be spoofed with 5 minutes of effort.
Can it run at 98+% utilization 24 hours a day 7 days a week without crashing?
Will the board or chip burn out in catastrophic fashion necessitating an RMA after a few weeks of use?
Can they actually make the chip & board and sell it profitably? Or do they need order volume in the hundreds of thousands before they can make enough margin?


There is something that is preventing them from shipping product and being rich. Meeting the requirements of vaporware marketing FUD issued 7 months ago is not what is holding them up. There is a show stopper.

[barneyss]

5.3 GH/s @ $149 = $28/ghps

It actually costs $274.

They are comparing the historic prices of BFL and Avalon. If you're going to use the current price for the BFL unit then you must do the same for the Avalon, which is more than $10000 at current prices.

BFL has no prices for products. One must first have a product before it can be assigned a price.
So far, BFL is selling zero-coupon convertible debt with no maturity date.
At some point in the future, the debt might be convertible into a black box assembled by amateurs that might mine bitcoins for some indeterminate period of time.

And why should ANYONE listen to a nutjob like you that states in their signature that BFL has no working prototype in a thread that has a VIDEO OF A WORKING PROTOTYPE??

Is there proof that they have? ..... Do you have one?
Do you trust luke-jr or them?

I wouldn't since everything could be staged!

 

just look on btl facebook page, they tested yesterday 5 gh's, it really has the power supply problem but looks workin well. and yes, its a proof enought for me, if u wanna sell your pre-order (only 5 gh's) i'll be happy in buying it

[BR0KK]

5.3 GH/s @ $149 = $28/ghps

It actually costs $274.

They are comparing the historic prices of BFL and Avalon. If you're going to use the current price for the BFL unit then you must do the same for the Avalon, which is more than $10000 at current prices.

BFL has no prices for products. One must first have a product before it can be assigned a price.
So far, BFL is selling zero-coupon convertible debt with no maturity date.
At some point in the future, the debt might be convertible into a black box assembled by amateurs that might mine bitcoins for some indeterminate period of time.

And why should ANYONE listen to a nutjob like you that states in their signature that BFL has no working prototype in a thread that has a VIDEO OF A WORKING PROTOTYPE??

Is there proof that they have? ..... Do you have one?
Do you trust luke-jr or them?

I wouldn't since everything could be staged!

 

just look on btl facebook page, they tested yesterday 5 gh's, it really has the power supply problem but looks workin well. and yes, its a proof enought for me, if u wanna sell your pre-order (only 5 gh's) i'll be happy in buying it

in red!

THEY've shown you one unit and all of the info around here goes *poof*!.....Happy ordering then;P


BTW... i don't have a stake in this!

[k9quaint]

5.3 GH/s @ $149 = $28/ghps

It actually costs $274.

They are comparing the historic prices of BFL and Avalon. If you're going to use the current price for the BFL unit then you must do the same for the Avalon, which is more than $10000 at current prices.

BFL has no prices for products. One must first have a product before it can be assigned a price.
So far, BFL is selling zero-coupon convertible debt with no maturity date.
At some point in the future, the debt might be convertible into a black box assembled by amateurs that might mine bitcoins for some indeterminate period of time.

And why should ANYONE listen to a nutjob like you that states in their signature that BFL has no working prototype in a thread that has a VIDEO OF A WORKING PROTOTYPE??

Is there proof that they have? ..... Do you have one?
Do you trust luke-jr or them?

I wouldn't since everything could be staged!

 

just look on btl facebook page, they tested yesterday 5 gh's, it really has the power supply problem but looks workin well. and yes, its a proof enought for me, if u wanna sell your pre-order (only 5 gh's) i'll be happy in buying it

Working well you say? For how long?
What exactly did you see? You saw something print out that something was hashing for 20 seconds or so. This is evidence that they are still working on producing a prototype, but it is certainly not proof. Let us not forget that evidence can be falsified (and has in the past by BFL).

At this point, I don't think there is any way BFL can release proof of anything without shipping product to trusted third parties for evaluation.
I don't mean letting Luke-Jr logging in via SSH. I mean letting Tomshardware examine it.

[nebulus]

Beautiful concept:



 

Steve Jobs would be proud...

[BR0KK]

5.3 GH/s @ $149 = $28/ghps

It actually costs $274.

They are comparing the historic prices of BFL and Avalon. If you're going to use the current price for the BFL unit then you must do the same for the Avalon, which is more than $10000 at current prices.

BFL has no prices for products. One must first have a product before it can be assigned a price.
So far, BFL is selling zero-coupon convertible debt with no maturity date.
At some point in the future, the debt might be convertible into a black box assembled by amateurs that might mine bitcoins for some indeterminate period of time.

And why should ANYONE listen to a nutjob like you that states in their signature that BFL has no working prototype in a thread that has a VIDEO OF A WORKING PROTOTYPE??

Is there proof that they have? ..... Do you have one?
Do you trust luke-jr or them?

I wouldn't since everything could be staged!

 

just look on btl facebook page, they tested yesterday 5 gh's, it really has the power supply problem but looks workin well. and yes, its a proof enought for me, if u wanna sell your pre-order (only 5 gh's) i'll be happy in buying it

Working well you say? For how long?
What exactly did you see? You saw something print out that something was hashing for 20 seconds or so. This is evidence that they are still working on producing a prototype, but it is certainly not proof. Let us not forget that evidence can be falsified (and has in the past by BFL).

At this point, I don't think there is any way BFL can release proof of anything without shipping product to trusted third parties for evaluation.
I don't mean letting Luke-Jr logging in via SSH. I mean letting Tomshardware examine it.

Stop trying ....it's BFLism at work ;P

[Quantus]

Sorry don't have time to read whole thread.

I ordered a  Jalapeno. Is this thing the new Jalapeno? If not What happens to peeps like me who ordered it?

[BR0KK]

Sorry don't have time to read whole thread.

I ordered a  Jalapeno. Is this thing the new Jalapeno? If not What happens to peeps like me who ordered it?

i think so?!

Prepare to get a unit with slightly "MORE" for what you payed for!

[barneyss]

Sorry don't have time to read whole thread.

I ordered a  Jalapeno. Is this thing the new Jalapeno? If not What happens to peeps like me who ordered it?

i think so?!

Prepare to get a unit with slightly "MORE" for what you payed for!

it happened that btl is a big scam but im a good person and iìll refund your for your order, are u up to trade?

[BR0KK]

Sorry don't have time to read whole thread.

I ordered a  Jalapeno. Is this thing the new Jalapeno? If not What happens to peeps like me who ordered it?

i think so?!

Prepare to get a unit with slightly "MORE" for what you payed for!

it happened that BFl is a big scam but im a good person and iìll refund your for your order, are u up to trade?

fixed that for you:P

And sure i'll trade my stock of "box'n fan's vaporWare" .....

[MrTeal]

the big problem that came out these days is da power supply.
5 gh's is using about 36w, how much will be using a 1500 gh's?
a normal power supply wont be able to keep it workin, you'll need to set up a huge supply for that stuff

minirig product design is apparently abandoned, 3.5kw per one household switch is max.

Wrong.
16A * 230V = 3680W maybe but due to PSU efficiency, nature of A/C usual maximum suggested draw is just 80% which is 2944W
As A/C power is a since wave, drawing out 16A @ midpoint of wave is just 150V = 2400W max, PSUs try to optimize to take their power at the sine peaks, but they often miss the mark of their claims, thus D/C operators often recommend 70% of the max, which is 2576W

...
I think you should clarify things in your head before correcting other people, especially when rattling off about drawing off 16A @150V from a 240V circuit because that's the midpoint of a sine wave.

[PuertoLibre]

A whole lot larger than a 4.5GH/s Jalapeno - where are the Jalapenos?

Everything looks a bit different now:

10kilowatts in a small confined space, a joke only.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROrpKx3aIjA

Idle vs Full Tilt.

[kibblesnbits]

If the Jalapeño is now in the case of the SC Single, what's the size of the SC Single? 

[erk]

A whole lot larger than a 4.5GH/s Jalapeno - where are the Jalapenos?

Everything looks a bit different now:

10kilowatts in a small confined space, a joke only.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROrpKx3aIjA

Idle vs Full Tilt.

Since when has BFL announced a product that requires 10kWatts? Sounds like forum BS to me.


I bet you have no idea of the parts and their power consumption that are going to be used in the BFL high end product.

[MrTeal]

10kilowatts in a small confined space, a joke only.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROrpKx3aIjA

Idle vs Full Tilt.

Since when has BFL announced a product that requires 10kWatts? Sounds like forum BS to me.

They haven't, but they have said expect 170MH/J and the unit in the video hit 138MH/J at the wall. That's 8800W to power a 1.5TH/s Minirig.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Yeah.... It looks like they will have a bunch to redesign with there power problems if they want to stick to there original chip density... But I wouldn't be surprised if they end up just shipping these signs with maybe half the original chips to deal with the unexpected power issues.   Surely the PCB is dirt cheap.  So what do you guys think.  Will they be able to produce a 15Gh (3 chip) or do you think they will hit the wall at 10Gh

This is excellent news! Now they have something to ship to the various labs to obtain CE, UL and FCC approval for, unless Sonny has an in with them folks in not having to abide by governmental regulations, thus avoiding the myriad of fines.

[sunblaster]

Yeah.... It looks like they will have a bunch to redesign with there power problems if they want to stick to there original chip density... But I wouldn't be surprised if they end up just shipping these signs with maybe half the original chips to deal with the unexpected power issues.   Surely the PCB is dirt cheap.  So what do you guys think.  Will they be able to produce a 15Gh (3 chip) or do you think they will hit the wall at 10Gh

This is excellent news! Now they have something to ship to the various labs to obtain CE, UL and FCC approval for, unless Sonny has an in with them folks in not having to abide by governmental regulations, thus avoiding the myriad of fines.

as long as it doesn't look like a pressure cooker they should get a swift aproval, just few days, unless it falls off UPS truck during delivery to FCC , then it should be just one extra day.

[BR0KK]

Yeah.... It looks like they will have a bunch to redesign with there power problems if they want to stick to there original chip density... But I wouldn't be surprised if they end up just shipping these signs with maybe half the original chips to deal with the unexpected power issues.   Surely the PCB is dirt cheap.  So what do you guys think.  Will they be able to produce a 15Gh (3 chip) or do you think they will hit the wall at 10Gh

This is excellent news! Now they have something to ship to the various labs to obtain CE, UL and FCC approval for, unless Sonny has an in with them folks in not having to abide by governmental regulations, thus avoiding the myriad of fines.

Add to that the international conventions ... CE etc...

[minternj]

CE is a self certification. http://export.gov/cemark/eg_main_017287.asp

FCC not sure if it applies to this piece of equipment.Thought it only applied to devices that knowingly gives off RF?

[dykast]

5.3 GH/s @ $149 = $28/ghps

It actually costs $274.

They are comparing the historic prices of BFL and Avalon. If you're going to use the current price for the BFL unit then you must do the same for the Avalon, which is more than $10000 at current prices.

BFL has no prices for products. One must first have a product before it can be assigned a price.
So far, BFL is selling zero-coupon convertible debt with no maturity date.
At some point in the future, the debt might be convertible into a black box assembled by amateurs that might mine bitcoins for some indeterminate period of time.

And why should ANYONE listen to a nutjob like you that states in their signature that BFL has no working prototype in a thread that has a VIDEO OF A WORKING PROTOTYPE??

Your definition of evidence and mine differ substantially. If their prototype was working, they would announce they were moving directly to production and the discussion would move to yields and assembly times. They have admitted that they *still* cannot convert the prototype (assuming the video was not just smoke and mirrors and we were witnessing a semi-functional piece of hardware) into a product. They admitted that additional work on the boards is still being done. After that work has been attempted, they will test again and see if things are working well enough to turn it into a product.

Finally, one must take any press release from BFL with a grain of salt. They have been caught repeatedly posting photos with claims that were easily disproved by careful examination of the photo. Let us apply some devil's advocation to the video given BFL's track record of playing fast and loose with the truth:

Even if they got the prototype to mine for 20 seconds in a video, does it hard crash after 15 minutes?
Does it actually mine? We saw numbers printed on the screen which resemble the output of cgminer but could be spoofed with 5 minutes of effort.
Can it run at 98+% utilization 24 hours a day 7 days a week without crashing?
Will the board or chip burn out in catastrophic fashion necessitating an RMA after a few weeks of use?
Can they actually make the chip & board and sell it profitably? Or do they need order volume in the hundreds of thousands before they can make enough margin?


There is something that is preventing them from shipping product and being rich. Meeting the requirements of vaporware marketing FUD issued 7 months ago is not what is holding them up. There is a show stopper.

From Wikipedia:

"A prototype is an early sample or model built to test a concept or process or to act as a thing to be replicated or learned from. It is a term used in a variety of contexts, including semantics, design, electronics, and software programming. A prototype is designed to test and trial a new design to enhance precision by system analysts and users. Prototyping serves to provide specifications for a real, working system rather than a theoretical one."

I would say the video shows a working prototype in every sense of the definition if we are going by what normal people think is a prototype.  Stop spreading FUD. 

There are a lot of things that BFL has done wrong but some of your guys go so overboard it borders on insanity.  Do the community a favor and SHUT THE FUCK UP!

[Phinnaeus Gage]

CE is a self certification. http://export.gov/cemark/eg_main_017287.asp

FCC not sure if it applies to this piece of equipment.Thought it only applied to devices that knowingly gives off RF?

It sure does apply to BFL's line of miners, hence Josh assuring investors that they're on top of the FCC aspect, but only posting the following after a week of people repeatedly asking about such requirement.

Then it was proven that no such devices made their way to any FCC facility, a fact still true to this day.

When is the Jalapeno getting FCC approval?

Maybe two weeks? We are waiting for the test lab to issue the test report.

With the bump in power requirements on the MR and the new screen, we had to make changes, although the new screen is already certified.  We are doing all the devices at once, since they all share the same board.

[minternj]

I searched fcc site applicant name for  "altera" and  didnt find any reports. I would think Altera fpga would be there if this type of device is subject to fcc?

https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/GenericSearch.cfm

Inputting motorola did hit a ton though. Dunno.

[CoinHoarder]

When is the Jalapeno getting FCC approval?

Maybe two weeks? We are waiting for the test lab to issue the test report.

With the bump in power requirements on the MR and the new screen, we had to make changes, although the new screen is already certified.  We are doing all the devices at once, since they all share the same board.

That quote from Inaba makes me sick to my stomach... BFL are such lying scumbags.

[Minor Miner]

When is the Jalapeno getting FCC approval?

Maybe two weeks? We are waiting for the test lab to issue the test report.

With the bump in power requirements on the MR and the new screen, we had to make changes, although the new screen is already certified.  We are doing all the devices at once, since they all share the same board.

That quote from Inaba makes me sick to my stomach... BFL are such lying scumbags.

And that quote there is the difference between incompetence and "being late" and criminal fraud.   This is going to be terrible.   When you knowingly lie and that lie causes people harm (which it has since they have lost money), it is fraud.   I would say this is pretty provable in court that Josh HAD submitted these devices for FCC approval since the device was only completed 5 months after he made this lie.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

When is the Jalapeno getting FCC approval?

Maybe two weeks? We are waiting for the test lab to issue the test report.

With the bump in power requirements on the MR and the new screen, we had to make changes, although the new screen is already certified.  We are doing all the devices at once, since they all share the same board.

That quote from Inaba makes me sick to my stomach... BFL are such lying scumbags.

And even if his statement is true, which is 99.995 unlikely, once the new boards come in, they would all need to be tested again by the FCC according to their website, therefore adding a possible two more weeks to their scheduled delivery date, whenever that is.

The same true for CE approval and UL, of which is a given since the power has been greatly altered from the first design, e.g. the adding/deleting of components.

[minternj]

upon further research, altera is probably categorized as computer board which seems to be exempt. I'd say the completed unit does legally need fcc compliance, although its less stringent for a "unintended emitter".

[Phinnaeus Gage]

When is the Jalapeno getting FCC approval?

Maybe two weeks? We are waiting for the test lab to issue the test report.

With the bump in power requirements on the MR and the new screen, we had to make changes, although the new screen is already certified.  We are doing all the devices at once, since they all share the same board.

That quote from Inaba makes me sick to my stomach... BFL are such lying scumbags.

And that quote there is the difference between incompetence and "being late" and criminal fraud.   This is going to be terrible.   When you knowingly lie and that lie causes people harm (which it has since they have lost money), it is fraud.   I would say this is pretty provable in court that Josh HAD submitted these devices for FCC approval since the device was only completed 5 months after he made this lie.

And any judge would agree with your assessment unless, of course, Judge Coin Jedi is presiding, then all bets are off.

[k9quaint]

/snip
Prototyping serves to provide specifications for a real, working system rather than a theoretical one."

I would say the video shows a working prototype in every sense of the definition if we are going by what normal people think is a prototype.  Stop spreading FUD. 

There are a lot of things that BFL has done wrong but some of your guys go so overboard it borders on insanity.  Do the community a favor and SHUT THE FUCK UP!

Let us assume the video was not a total sham like other PR from BFL (pictures, ship dates, specifications, etc).

If the video showed a working prototype, they would manufacture to those specifications. They would certainly not say "when we get the new board our power problems should be fixed". The video purported to show a prototype that still needs more work. This is the admission of the BFL representative speaking in the video. They are still in the prototyping phase. They have been in this phase for 10 months. Until they actually manufacture product and ship it they will still be in the prototyping phase. Anyone can SHA-256 once, the challenge is doing it fast, cheaply, for long periods, in volume, and for a low price. They have not demonstrated a prototype of a product that can do this yet. When they show a video and say "ok, this is it, we don't have to make any more changes and our partners are doing a large volume chip run followed by a large volume PCB run" I will change my sig. Gladly as a matter of fact. This farce has gone on for far too long.

Now that previous paragraph involves almost no skepticism on my part. If I was being skeptical, I would ask for actual proof of mining. Not just numbers scrolling on a screen which could easily be spoofed. I would want to see the unit mining (with proof) for more than 20 seconds at a time. Running it in short bursts does nothing to reassure me that it can run for any length of time. I don't know how they would accomplish this other than to let an expert neutral observer with credibility (e.g. not Luke-jr logging in remotely) actually take physical possession of a unit, take it home and run it through the paces. BFL has so thoroughly poisoned their public relations well, they may only be able to prove this by actually shipping several hundred orders and have them operate successfully for 6 months or so in the marketplace.

Oh, and it would be nice if low post count sockpuppets didn't show up and tout BFL quite so often.

[dykast]

/snip
Prototyping serves to provide specifications for a real, working system rather than a theoretical one."

I would say the video shows a working prototype in every sense of the definition if we are going by what normal people think is a prototype.  Stop spreading FUD. 

There are a lot of things that BFL has done wrong but some of your guys go so overboard it borders on insanity.  Do the community a favor and SHUT THE FUCK UP!

Let us assume the video was not a total sham like other PR from BFL (pictures, ship dates, specifications, etc).

If the video showed a working prototype, they would manufacture to those specifications. They would certainly not say "when we get the new board our power problems should be fixed". The video purported to show a prototype that still needs more work. This is the admission of the BFL representative speaking in the video. They are still in the prototyping phase. They have been in this phase for 10 months. Until they actually manufacture product and ship it they will still be in the prototyping phase. Anyone can SHA-256 once, the challenge is doing it fast, cheaply, for long periods, in volume, and for a low price. They have not demonstrated a prototype of a product that can do this yet. When they show a video and say "ok, this is it, we don't have to make any more changes and our partners are doing a large volume chip run followed by a large volume PCB run" I will change my sig. Gladly as a matter of fact. This farce has gone on for far too long.

Now that previous paragraph involves almost no skepticism on my part. If I was being skeptical, I would ask for actual proof of mining. Not just numbers scrolling on a screen which could easily be spoofed. I would want to see the unit mining (with proof) for more than 20 seconds at a time. Running it in short bursts does nothing to reassure me that it can run for any length of time. I don't know how they would accomplish this other than to let an expert neutral observer with credibility (e.g. not Luke-jr logging in remotely) actually take physical possession of a unit, take it home and run it through the paces. BFL has so thoroughly poisoned their public relations well, they may only be able to prove this by actually shipping several hundred orders and have them operate successfully for 6 months or so in the marketplace.

Oh, and it would be nice if low post count sockpuppets didn't show up and tout BFL quite so often.

First off, might want to look at my join date..I am not a sock puppet for BFL, I just post when I feel it is necessary.  I won't waste my time arguing with someone who contradicts themselves with their own statements. 

If you really wanted to do some good for the community with your constant bashing for BFL, you should just stick to known facts.  The easiest one is telling people that if you preorder now, do not expect your unit for at least 4+ months at the very least.  I am sure that is something we can BOTH agree on that BFL does not tell customers.

[The-Real-Link]

While I find the video to be nice progress, I also received an email today regarding (finally) upgrading shipping order options.

The consistent thing I've been told was that when this would happen and be allowed to be changed was when shipping would be soon underway. 

Hopefully not too much longer now.  I'd imagine they just need to have the higher power spec boards mass-produced, then assembly and ship-out.

[k9quaint]

/snip
Prototyping serves to provide specifications for a real, working system rather than a theoretical one."

I would say the video shows a working prototype in every sense of the definition if we are going by what normal people think is a prototype.  Stop spreading FUD. 

There are a lot of things that BFL has done wrong but some of your guys go so overboard it borders on insanity.  Do the community a favor and SHUT THE FUCK UP!

Let us assume the video was not a total sham like other PR from BFL (pictures, ship dates, specifications, etc).

If the video showed a working prototype, they would manufacture to those specifications. They would certainly not say "when we get the new board our power problems should be fixed". The video purported to show a prototype that still needs more work. This is the admission of the BFL representative speaking in the video. They are still in the prototyping phase. They have been in this phase for 10 months. Until they actually manufacture product and ship it they will still be in the prototyping phase. Anyone can SHA-256 once, the challenge is doing it fast, cheaply, for long periods, in volume, and for a low price. They have not demonstrated a prototype of a product that can do this yet. When they show a video and say "ok, this is it, we don't have to make any more changes and our partners are doing a large volume chip run followed by a large volume PCB run" I will change my sig. Gladly as a matter of fact. This farce has gone on for far too long.

Now that previous paragraph involves almost no skepticism on my part. If I was being skeptical, I would ask for actual proof of mining. Not just numbers scrolling on a screen which could easily be spoofed. I would want to see the unit mining (with proof) for more than 20 seconds at a time. Running it in short bursts does nothing to reassure me that it can run for any length of time. I don't know how they would accomplish this other than to let an expert neutral observer with credibility (e.g. not Luke-jr logging in remotely) actually take physical possession of a unit, take it home and run it through the paces. BFL has so thoroughly poisoned their public relations well, they may only be able to prove this by actually shipping several hundred orders and have them operate successfully for 6 months or so in the marketplace.

Oh, and it would be nice if low post count sockpuppets didn't show up and tout BFL quite so often.

First off, might want to look at my join date..I am not a sock puppet for BFL, I just post when I feel it is necessary.  I won't waste my time arguing with someone who contradicts themselves with their own statements. 

I did not contradict myself.  I contradicted you. Then I called you a shill for BFL, which may or may not be true. I can't control wether or not you support them in the face of relentless evidence to the contrary. I am still not contradicting myself. See me not contradicting myself? Watch carefully as I do not contradict myself. 

If you really wanted to do some good for the community with your constant bashing for BFL, you should just stick to known facts.  The easiest one is telling people that if you preorder now, do not expect your unit for at least 4+ months at the very least.  I am sure that is something we can BOTH agree on that BFL does not tell customers.

I do. Thus my sig. A video posted by a company that has lied for 7 months, taken a lot of money from a lot of people, delivered no ASICs, and is run by a felon convicted of mail fraud for running a $20M scam is not a "fact". It is evidence that could be true or it could be misinformation. We do agree that BFL probably isn't giving anyone who orders a unit now anything for at least 4 months.

I will be glad if BFL finally ships something real. I might even buy one if they prove to be a quality product and can ship in a reasonable amount of time. I am tired of the relentless scamming that goes on in these forums because so many people engage in magical thinking instead of critical thinking.

As soon as BFL declares that they have sent the specs to the factory to produce the chips & PCBs in large volumes, I will amend the part to say they claim to have a working prototype that has entered production. I think posting the videos is a good thing for BFL (presuming they are not just more smoke and mirrors), it works towards recovering some of the credibility they have squandered over the last 7 months.

[Tamerz]

This is excellent news! Now they have something to ship to the various labs to obtain CE, UL and FCC approval for, unless Sonny has an in with them folks in not having to abide by governmental regulations, thus avoiding the myriad of fines.

You keep posting this without answering why they need that when the BFL FPGA did not? There are no CE, UL, or FCC tags anywhere on it, yet they shipped plenty of them. As far as I can tell, if it doesn't directly deal with AC, and doesn't directly deal with network, it shouldn't need any of that.

Does any custom miner out there now have any of those?

[Phinnaeus Gage]

This is excellent news! Now they have something to ship to the various labs to obtain CE, UL and FCC approval for, unless Sonny has an in with them folks in not having to abide by governmental regulations, thus avoiding the myriad of fines.

You keep posting this without answering why they need that when the BFL FPGA did not? There are no CE, UL, or FCC tags anywhere on it, yet they shipped plenty of them. As far as I can tell, if it doesn't directly deal with AC, and doesn't directly deal with network, it shouldn't need any of that.

Does any custom miner out there now have any of those?

Clearly then, any FPGA miner that they shipped was in violation of US law if it didn't at least have an FCC tag in place. Any unit sent to a municipality in the US that requires a UL lag clearly puts them and the customer who received it in violation of the law.

Ergo, Sonny Vleisides is clearly breaking the law, coupled with having some of his clients break it as well, depending on which municipality they live in. Circumnavigating CE regulations is a completely different matter altogether.

The FCC requirement is a concern of BFL, otherwise they wouldn't have posted that they were in the process of obtaining approval.

[Tamerz]

Clearly then, any FPGA miner that they shipped was in violation of US law if it didn't at least have an FCC tag in place. Any unit sent to a municipality in the US that requires a UL lag clearly puts them and the customer who received it in violation of the law.

Ergo, Sonny Vleisides is clearly breaking the law, coupled with having some of his clients break it as well, depending on which municipality they live in. Circumnavigating CE regulations is a completely different matter altogether.

The FCC requirement is a concern of BFL, otherwise they wouldn't have posted that they were in the process of obtaining approval.

What about the other mining devices? Do they have any of those certifications?

BTW I'm not being a troll. I seriously don't know the answer.

[jspielberg]

I would doubt Avalon's are UL certified... but I think they enter the country as engineering samples... soooo  /shrug

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I would doubt Avalon's are UL certified... but I think they enter the country as engineering samples... soooo  /shrug

Unfortunately, I have no insight as to what Avalon may, or may not, be required to do to ship such wares to the US. But, BFL being Inc. in the US is a completely different issue, thus a host of regulations they must comply to, the FCC one being the main one.

[Tamerz]

Unfortunately, I have no insight as to what Avalon may, or may not, be required to do to ship such wares to the US. But, BFL being Inc. in the US is a completely different issue, thus a host of regulations they must comply to, the FCC one being the main one.

But that doesn't make any sense. Why does my TV from China have to have that and UL? There has to be something more to it.

[Tamerz]

Unfortunately, I have no insight as to what Avalon may, or may not, be required to do to ship such wares to the US. But, BFL being Inc. in the US is a completely different issue, thus a host of regulations they must comply to, the FCC one being the main one.

But that doesn't make any sense. Why does my TV from China have to have that and UL? There has to be something more to it.

This link is actually rather interesting: https://www.sparkfun.com/tutorials/398

"What can I do to avoid expensive testing and still remain in compliance with the laws?"
"A digital device used exclusively as industrial, commercial, or medical test equipment."

[Bogart]

Clearly then, any FPGA miner that they shipped was in violation of US law if it didn't at least have an FCC tag in place. Any unit sent to a municipality in the US that requires a UL lag clearly puts them and the customer who received it in violation of the law.

Ergo, Sonny Vleisides is clearly breaking the law, coupled with having some of his clients break it as well, depending on which municipality they live in. Circumnavigating CE regulations is a completely different matter altogether.

The FCC requirement is a concern of BFL, otherwise they wouldn't have posted that they were in the process of obtaining approval.

What about the other mining devices? Do they have any of those certifications?

BTW I'm not being a troll. I seriously don't know the answer.

My FPGA Singles have no labels or markings whatsoever on their exterior.  I guess they aren't certified.

[pikeadz]

While I find the video to be nice progress, I also received an email today regarding (finally) upgrading shipping order options.

The consistent thing I've been told was that when this would happen and be allowed to be changed was when shipping would be soon underway. 

Hopefully not too much longer now.  I'd imagine they just need to have the higher power spec boards mass-produced, then assembly and ship-out.

That e-mail is just part of the scam.  Just another income stream for them that they have no intention of ever delivering on.

[smoothie]

Seriously, I could care less exactly how many watts this thing uses - as long as it doesn't catch fire or melt itself as far as I'm concerned it is good to go! Get in production and ship me mine! Wasting a few more KW/H per month matters much less than the ramp up of difficulty that is going on now.

Typical noob. Don't care about power consumption just ship me my BFL magic box with lephrechauns gold and rainbows.

They missed their power mark by a huge factor and that doesn't phase you? Shit then they may as well have shipped gpu based mining equipment to satisfy your insatiable need to be fucked. Lol

[erk]

Seriously, I could care less exactly how many watts this thing uses - as long as it doesn't catch fire or melt itself as far as I'm concerned it is good to go! Get in production and ship me mine! Wasting a few more KW/H per month matters much less than the ramp up of difficulty that is going on now.

Typical noob. Don't care about power consumption just ship me my BFL magic box with lephrechauns gold and rainbows.

They missed their power mark by a huge factor and that doesn't phase you? Shit then they may as well have shipped gpu based mining equipment to satisfy your insatiable need to be fucked. Lol

What was the power mark for the demonstrated 5GHs unit that it missed by a "huge factor"?

[Tamerz]

My FPGA Singles have no labels or markings whatsoever on their exterior.  I guess they aren't certified.

Which is why I'm thinking these possibly won't need it either. They use an external power supply which should already have the UL certification and FCC might be excluded as "commercial test equipment" (that may be a stretch). It seems hardly worth bothering to go for the certifications unless the FCC comes after them. I doubt it will even hit their radar.

EDIT: Of course, Phinnaeus Gage pointed out that Josh said something about getting it. I don't know if that means they need it BEFORE they ship, or if after is OK.

[jspielberg]

I believe the irate anti-bfl crowd is noting that they originally cited that the 5Gh model was going to be USB powered... which this demo clearly demonstrates it requires externally supplied power.  Frankly it is pretty obvious that the "new jalapeño" is just the original design for the Single, but with 1 ASIC chip rather than the usual 5.

That being said... I think most miners don't give a rats behind how much power their asic miner uses (within reason) as long as it gets the hash rate what they want.

The interesting thing to me is... assuming they ship all the orders for all the models... they aren't brining in new money with those shipments... those pre orders were paid a long time ago.  Assuming they have a crappy CFO (given), it seems like they probably really need new orders to keep a revenue stream.  I wonder if they raised prices because they were really having issues with their revenue stream.   I wonder if that strategy is working.

[creativex]

Seriously, I could care less exactly how many watts this thing uses - as long as it doesn't catch fire or melt itself as far as I'm concerned it is good to go! Get in production and ship me mine! Wasting a few more KW/H per month matters much less than the ramp up of difficulty that is going on now.

Typical noob. Don't care about power consumption just ship me my BFL magic box with lephrechauns gold and rainbows.

They missed their power mark by a huge factor and that doesn't phase you? Shit then they may as well have shipped gpu based mining equipment to satisfy your insatiable need to be fucked. Lol

What was the power mark for the demonstrated 5GHs unit that the missed by a "huge factor"?

BFL was peddling their fairy tale(lie) 1w/Gh/s across their entire product line for months. Kind of a big deal when you originally sell a product you claim does 4.5Gh/s @ 4.5w and then say you'll ship a product that does 5Gh/s but uses 6-7x that amount of power. These things won't be profitable nearly as long as was originally projected due to much higher power consumption, which makes it even more painful that they're 6 months late and counting.

That being said... I think most miners don't give a rats behind how much power their asic miner uses (within reason) as long as it gets the hash rate what they want.

They may not care now, but if they don't receive their frankenminer for a few months they'll certainly care then as it's power consumption that determines how long mining equipment remains profitable. Josh and others attempting to pretty this turd up by saying it's still more efficient than Avalon are ignoring the fact that Avalons are real products that real miners are really using right now.

[Tamerz]

They may not care now, but if they don't receive their frankenminer for a few months they'll certainly care then as it's power consumption that determines how long mining equipment remains profitable. Josh and others attempting to pretty this turd up by saying it's still more efficient than Avalon are ignoring the fact that Avalons are real products that real miners are really using right now.

Not only that, but even if you have fixed electricity costs like I do, heat becomes a concern. More power = more heat.

[erk]

They may not care now, but if they don't receive their frankenminer for a few months they'll certainly care then as it's power consumption that determines how long mining equipment remains profitable. Josh and others attempting to pretty this turd up by saying it's still more efficient than Avalon are ignoring the fact that Avalons are real products that real miners are really using right now.

Not only that, but even if you have fixed electricity costs like I do, heat becomes a concern. More power = more heat.

So 32watts is going to break you? Or are you talking about some BFL model that has yet to have power consumption demonstrated?

[elvisrene]

i hop to see them soon looking to buy but i believe people have been waiting over a year

[Frizz23]

Jalapeno (5 GH/s): 36 Watt
Little Single (30 GH/s): 216 Watt

216 Watt is roughly what the cooler of a 7970 GPU has to dissipate.

Now look at the cooling solutions:

[erk]

Jalapeno (5 GH/s): 36 Watt
Little Single (30 GH/s): 216 Watt

216 Watt is roughly what the cooler of a 7970 GPU has to dissipate.

Now look at the cooling solutions:

The unit is called the "BitForce 25 GH/s SC" and it's 25Ghz not 30GHs. The 5GHs unit which consumes 32watts not 36watts most likely uses a few watts in driving the control electronics, USB port, fan if it has one etc. So it's real consumption for the ASIC is probably closer to 28watts. So the BitForce 25 GH/s SC will probably come closer to 145watts rather than your 216watt claim. That's of course assuming that the don't fix the power consumption issues in the next wafer/batch whatever before a BitForce 25 GH/s SC ships.

[witherworth]

You can't compare the wattage on a BFL with an Avalon. An Avalon is a self-contained mining device. Add in the wattage for the laptop and the BFL is less efficient than an Avalon! ROFLMAO.

Except it's not. When you add in even 100w for a laptop, then plug in 10 BFL singles, suddenly that laptop only uses an extra 10w per single. There's no point to have 10 different hard drives, 10 wifi modules, etc. all of that can be taken care of with 1 mini computer (~$150 for a new one, running at ~50w with either windows or Linux).

Also, of you've only got 1 unit, run it off a RPi, and that only consumes, what, 10w or something rediculus? You could probably find a way to mount the Pi inside the jalapeño, and cut a hole out the back for Ethernet & additional power cord. Would certainly be an interesting project.

[Frizz23]

So it's real consumption for the ASIC is probably closer to 28watts. So the BitForce 25 GH/s SC will probably come closer to 145watts rather than your 216watt claim.

And the Single SC, which was advertised with 60GH/s, has now what? 50GH/s? 40GH/s? 0GH/s?

It is still advertised with 50GH/s, so let's take 50.

According to your calculation the 25GH/s unit needs 145 Watt. So the 50GH/s needs 290 Watt.

Both units have the same casing.

So this tiny heatsink dissipates 290 Watt of heat? LOL.

[erk]

So it's real consumption for the ASIC is probably closer to 28watts. So the BitForce 25 GH/s SC will probably come closer to 145watts rather than your 216watt claim.

And the Single SC, which was advertised with 60GH/s, has now what? 50GH/s? 40GH/s? 0GH/s?

It is still advertised with 50GH/s, so let's take 50.

According to your calculation the 25GH/s unit needs 145 Watt. So the 50GH/s needs 290 Watt.

Both units have the same casing.

So this tiny heatsink dissipates 290 Watt of heat? LOL.

Just give up and stop your trolling, you and I have no idea what power consumption or case size the 25GHs and 50GHs units will come in, all we know so far is about the 5GHs unit, the rest is pointless speculation, silly pictures, and bad math.

[Frizz23]

Just give up and stop your trolling, you and I have no idea what power consumption or case size the 25GHs and 50GHs units will come in, ...

Yes we do have an idea. Look at products.butterflylabs.com

Or do you imply that BFL puts inaccurate pictures on their product page?

[Newscastix]

Just give up and stop your trolling, you and I have no idea what power consumption or case size the 25GHs and 50GHs units will come in, ...

Yes we do have an idea. Look at products.butterflylabs.com

Or do you imply that BFL puts inaccurate pictures on their product page?

They have been inaccurate before. A month ago the jalapeno looked different...

[k9quaint]

So it's real consumption for the ASIC is probably closer to 28watts. So the BitForce 25 GH/s SC will probably come closer to 145watts rather than your 216watt claim.

And the Single SC, which was advertised with 60GH/s, has now what? 50GH/s? 40GH/s? 0GH/s?

It is still advertised with 50GH/s, so let's take 50.

According to your calculation the 25GH/s unit needs 145 Watt. So the 50GH/s needs 290 Watt.

Both units have the same casing.

So this tiny heatsink dissipates 290 Watt of heat? LOL.

Just give up and stop your trolling, you and I have no idea what power consumption or case size the 25GHs and 50GHs units will come in, all we know so far is about the 5GHs unit, the rest is pointless speculation, silly pictures, and bad math.

How is it trolling to take the product page at butterflylabs and deriving the power needs of the product line from the latest claims put forth by BFL?
That just seems like math. Of course, this math is only of interest to nitwits who invested in BFL (since their debt notes are convertible into things called SCs or Singles or Jalapenos.)

[Marrs]

Except it's not. When you add in even 100w for a laptop, then plug in 10 BFL singles, suddenly that laptop only uses an extra 10w per single. There's no point to have 10 different hard drives, 10 wifi modules, etc. all of that can be taken care of with 1 mini computer (~$150 for a new one, running at ~50w with either windows or Linux).

Also, of you've only got 1 unit, run it off a RPi, and that only consumes, what, 10w or something rediculus? You could probably find a way to mount the Pi inside the jalapeño, and cut a hole out the back for Ethernet & additional power cord. Would certainly be an interesting project.

This is true, except I think the laptop and RPi power consumption numbers you're using are too high.

The currently unused netbook that I'm planning to use with my Single uses 12W at max draw, and under 8W when the screen is off, which will be most of the time, and a RPi uses about 2.1W under CPU load.

[creativex]

Except it's not. When you add in even 100w for a laptop, then plug in 10 BFL singles, suddenly that laptop only uses an extra 10w per single. There's no point to have 10 different hard drives, 10 wifi modules, etc. all of that can be taken care of with 1 mini computer (~$150 for a new one, running at ~50w with either windows or Linux).

Also, of you've only got 1 unit, run it off a RPi, and that only consumes, what, 10w or something rediculus? You could probably find a way to mount the Pi inside the jalapeño, and cut a hole out the back for Ethernet & additional power cord. Would certainly be an interesting project.

This is true, except I think the laptop and RPi power consumption numbers you're using are too high.

The currently unused netbook that I'm planning to use with my Single uses 12W at max draw, and under 8W when the screen is off, which will be most of the time, and a RPi uses about 2.1W under CPU load.

Fantastic.

I really hope you receive your single or whatever product(s) BFL sends you for ordering a now cancelled single SC before your netbook turns to dust. They don't even have a projected shipping date 6 months after their first projected shipping date lie. You're likely to receive these product(s) after Avalon batches 2 & 3 ship and ASICMiner deploys another 50Th+ if you ever receive them. With the power consumption increasing 5-6x on BFLs line of fail you're unlikely to ever get your investment back, much less profit. The appropriate response when you're screwed over by a hardware vendor ignoring FTC prompt delivery regulations is to request a refund and take your business elsewhere.

[Marrs]

Except it's not. When you add in even 100w for a laptop, then plug in 10 BFL singles, suddenly that laptop only uses an extra 10w per single. There's no point to have 10 different hard drives, 10 wifi modules, etc. all of that can be taken care of with 1 mini computer (~$150 for a new one, running at ~50w with either windows or Linux).

Also, of you've only got 1 unit, run it off a RPi, and that only consumes, what, 10w or something rediculus? You could probably find a way to mount the Pi inside the jalapeño, and cut a hole out the back for Ethernet & additional power cord. Would certainly be an interesting project.

This is true, except I think the laptop and RPi power consumption numbers you're using are too high.

The currently unused netbook that I'm planning to use with my Single uses 12W at max draw, and under 8W when the screen is off, which will be most of the time, and a RPi uses about 2.1W under CPU load.

Fantastic.

I really hope you receive your single or whatever product(s) BFL sends you for ordering a now cancelled single SC before your netbook turns to dust. They don't even have a projected shipping date 6 months after their first projected shipping date lie. You're likely to receive these product(s) after Avalon batches 2 & 3 ship and ASICMiner deploys another 50Th+ if you ever receive them. With the power consumption increasing 5-6x on BFLs line of fail you're unlikely to ever get your investment back, much less profit. The appropriate response when you're screwed over by a hardware vendor ignoring FTC prompt delivery regulations is to request a refund and take your business elsewhere.

/chuckle

I guess we'll see, but if there wasn't any profit to be made, asicminer wouldn't be planning a 200 TH deployment to come some time after their upcoming 50TH deployment.

[John Self]

BFL's entire budget went on designing those boxes of fans and LEDs, especially the minirig, and now they are an utter failure like everything else they've designed.

[creativex]

I guess we'll see, but if there wasn't any profit to be made, asicminer wouldn't be planning a 200 TH deployment to come some time after their upcoming 50TH deployment.

There's plenty of profit to be made...and ASICMiner and Avalon investors are making it. BFL...who knows what's really going on over there, but their investors are getting hosed and there's no end in sight. They've even stopped giving out fairy tale shipping dates.

It's a mistake to compare BFL or their vaporware products to the products of either legit ASIC mining hardware vendors. BFL could fall apart or be shut down at any time just like BTCFPGA did. Eventually you have to deliver.

[barneyss]

news from jalapenos
but not shipping date

http://codinginmysleep.com/bfl-jalapeno-unboxing-and-demo/

[jspielberg]

Looks like the end is in sight for BFL customers if they are willing to accept their hashers in nickel denominations (and I think you would have to be crazy to turn down 5 Jalapenos for 1 SingleSC if you could get the 5 next month rather than in five months).

[creativex]

Looks like the end is in sight for BFL customers if they are willing to accept their hashers in nickel denominations (and I think you would have to be crazy to turn down 5 Jalapenos for 1 SingleSC if you could get the 5 next month rather than in five months).

I think you mean 12 nickels. The now cancelled single SC was advertised as 60Gh/s @ 60w. Twelve of these toys may get you the same hashrate after a nightmare of wiring, but would also consume at least 400 watts. It's irrelevant anyway, BFL will not be able to ship 12 of these for every single sc ordered.