Bitcoin Forum
December 14, 2017, 07:09:28 PM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.15.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Why are people so eager to pay tax?  (Read 13268 times)
agaumoney
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 53


View Profile
April 21, 2013, 08:08:00 PM
 #101

you are wrong. public roads in Denmark are funded by the danish government.

No, they are not.

They are funded by taking money from society by force if necessary.  Gov't claims the exclusive right of the exercise of force against members of society.
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1513278568
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1513278568

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1513278568
Reply with quote  #2

1513278568
Report to moderator
1513278568
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1513278568

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1513278568
Reply with quote  #2

1513278568
Report to moderator
1513278568
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1513278568

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1513278568
Reply with quote  #2

1513278568
Report to moderator
agaumoney
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 53


View Profile
April 21, 2013, 08:10:08 PM
 #102

inheritance of wealth does not go well with your people are born equal. you can only have one of the options.

That is a gross distortion.

Born equal has nothing to do with family, gender, health, wealth or anything other than civil rights.  In other words, there is no nobility or other political privilege or punishment by right of birth.

If anything, being born poor is now currently breaking the "born equal" promise because the state provides more for those at the expense of those whose families pay their own way.

define "Born equal" then, and don't just put a reference to civil rights.

Civil rights are the rights to which born equal applies. That was and is the only context.
kokjo
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1050

You are WRONG!


View Profile
April 21, 2013, 08:13:06 PM
 #103

inheritance of wealth does not go well with your people are born equal. you can only have one of the options.

That is a gross distortion.

Born equal has nothing to do with family, gender, health, wealth or anything other than civil rights.  In other words, there is no nobility or other political privilege or punishment by right of birth.

If anything, being born poor is now currently breaking the "born equal" promise because the state provides more for those at the expense of those whose families pay their own way.

define "Born equal" then, and don't just put a reference to civil rights.

Civil rights are the rights to which born equal applies. That was and is the only context.
and what you did was to just reference civil rights...

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
agaumoney
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 53


View Profile
April 21, 2013, 08:14:52 PM
 #104

the governement behave in the society's favor.

im currently paid by the state to take my education. and when im done with my education i will happily pay taxes, and i will not claim that the government steals from me.

Then you are a fool with gullible written in bold on your forehead.

Government has as its highest priority the survival of government. If helping society will help government, then gov't will help society to help itself.  But each and every time those goals conflict, government has always and will always sacrifice society for the continuance and growth of government.

Look at any government emergency plans for themself vs for their populace.  Look at any war between two nations.
kokjo
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1050

You are WRONG!


View Profile
April 21, 2013, 08:17:31 PM
 #105

Government has as its highest priority the survival of government.
no. you are assuming that the government is a living being, that only have its own survival in mind. it is not.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
agaumoney
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 53


View Profile
April 21, 2013, 08:20:33 PM
 #106

Government is a construct of a society seeking to organise itself to be more efficient.

basically I agree with what you wrote except for that line.

Efficiency has nothing to do with founding gov'ts.  Gov'ts are the least efficient allocators of resources known to man.

Many/most gov'ts were founded by gangs of thieves who conquered and subjected others in order to exploit them.  Some/few were founded by people to protect the people from gov'ts of the first order, but none remain of that persuasion to my knowledge.  Some have tried to dress themselves as if the people/society were a priority, but the laws, constitutions, and actions when observed in action do not support that stance.
agaumoney
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 53


View Profile
April 21, 2013, 08:21:44 PM
 #107


Civil rights are the rights to which born equal applies. That was and is the only context.
and what you did was to just reference civil rights...
kokjo
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1050

You are WRONG!


View Profile
April 21, 2013, 08:22:56 PM
 #108

Government is a construct of a society seeking to organise itself to be more efficient.

basically I agree with what you wrote except for that line.

Efficiency has nothing to do with founding gov'ts.  Gov'ts are the least efficient allocators of resources known to man.

Many/most gov'ts were founded by gangs of thieves who conquered and subjected others in order to exploit them.  Some/few were founded by people to protect the people from gov'ts of the first order, but none remain of that persuasion to my knowledge.  Some have tried to dress themselves as if the people/society were a priority, but the laws, constitutions, and actions when observed in action do not support that stance.
you really have a fucked up sense of history.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
Mike Christ
aka snapsunny
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1092



View Profile
April 21, 2013, 08:26:38 PM
 #109

The government's like the mafia; they offer protection, for a price.  If you don't cough up the dough, they hurt you.  The government can do this because it has a monopoly on security: governments generally own A.) the military, B.) the militias, and C.) the police.  If you don't want to support the military, or the militias, or the police, then it's too bad; you're forced to pay for them to exist, and you have little to no control over how these services are run.  Now, because the government owns the soldiers, the mercenaries and the peacekeepers, they can essentially do whatever they want to their citizens.  Now, they might pretend they're benevolent and they're there for your well-being, but lets not forget, they own the means of force, and they use it, often.

In the case of America, the citizens don't get to decide who goes to jail, an appointed official does.  The citizens don't decide which laws get passed, their elected officials do.  The citizens don't decide where their taxes go.  The citizens don't decide whether or not they pay them.  We have this funny little system where we're told we can change this or that, but it's a lie; our vote only decides who we're putting in charge for making our every decision.

So, the answer to the question is, people pay tax because they have to.  They can either pretend to like it, or express their discontent, but the fact is, you will be taxed, and resistance is futile.

This is normally where most people stop, go to their bedrooms, shut the door and grumble to themselves how it's not fair "but life is unfair."  Well, if you're that person, too bad, because here's the solution:

A free market on security.  The government exists by force.  You don't decide which government you follow, unless you get out of the country.  It shouldn't be this way.  Coca Cola doesn't put a gun to our head and tell us that if we drink Pepsi, we'll be thrown in jail.  Why doesn't the Coca-Cola company do this?  Because it's illegal.  Which is hypocritical; the entity which invented law, is breaking that same law, for the government is putting guns to our heads (through the soldiers, the militias, and the peacekeepers) and telling us we have to follow every decision they make, every law they pass and war they wage, or we'll be punished.  If the Coca-Cola company can't do this, nor should a single government.  The government is not God.  The government is there to serve us, but like any monopoly, the government will charge whatever it wants for their service and provide whatever kind of service it feels.  It has been providing shit service for decades.

Thus, the solution is a competition of government; government A, B, C, and D need to show us they provide the better service on security and infrastructure.  Since Government A (our government) has proven, over, and over, and over, that they no longer care for our needs (and why should they, with a monopoly, care?), I believe anyone living in a capitalistic society can agree that competition is the very soul of a quality service.

Jobe7
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 238


Now they are thinking what to do with me


View Profile
April 21, 2013, 08:26:44 PM
 #110

Quote
Bankers. All wars are banker wars.

does not banks pay for wars?

Yes and yes.

Governments (or rebels) borrow from banks to fund their wars. This turns into 'debt' to the banks, lots and lots of interest and enslavement to the banks.

So, yes, bankers pay for wars, and they profit immensely from them. You might want to research into who made lots and lots of money from nearly every war that we have records of. For example, when the UK won the Napoleonic wars, who had a very fast horse race back to the UK/London, pretend to tell a certain individual (coughRothschildscough) things privately, who then acted as if the war was lost and start selling shares/stock en masse, which caused everyone else to go "AMAGAD PANIC SELL SELL SELL!!!" and then through various agents brought up all the shares/stock that was being sold, and at the end of the day (and when reports came back that the UK had won the war) turns out that this particular person had just literally brought out everyone.

Also, look into who actually owns arms companies, and where these arms go (to both sides, surprised?). Selling arms is very big money, and keeping nations destabilized so you can go in and steal their wealth is even more money.

Pretty much every country is in debt to the banks (coughrothschildscough)

------------------

anyway, apologies to digress, back to taxes Smiley
farlack
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 882



View Profile
April 21, 2013, 08:28:38 PM
 #111

People want to pay taxes on their earnings for a simple reason..

Right now there isn't tax on coin.
There is tax on profit.
Coin worth $10, you sell for $10 make 0 profit in your eyes


4 years later your taxes you didn't owe that $45,000 that you should have paid out that you didn't.
Coins are now worth $1000 each, but you sold all. You spent all your money, now working your 9-5 job.
Now the IRS comes after you, what can you do but pay the now $150,000 they want after fees, and fines.

I think paying is better.

Severian
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 476



View Profile
April 21, 2013, 08:34:29 PM
 #112

Only the idiotic would think that a gov't capable of redistributing wealth will continue to do so in their favor.

One of the reasons I stay off of the State's gravy train is because I noticed that it tends to affect the intellectual capacity of the recipient. It has to:

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair
Severian
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 476



View Profile
April 21, 2013, 08:37:43 PM
 #113

does not banks pay for wars?

Bankers see wars as just another investment. They see government in the same way.

People are just cheap assets to bankers. Never forget that.
Jobe7
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 238


Now they are thinking what to do with me


View Profile
April 21, 2013, 08:38:11 PM
 #114

Forgetting the global society for one second and just focussing on our individual societies, because we are all from different countries, with different systems of government and different taxation systems.

This is how I see it, please feel free to correct me if I am wrong:

1. Government is a construct of a society seeking to organise itself to be more efficient.

2. Taxation is a construct of government put in place to centralise the funds required to effectively provide services and infrastructure to that society.

Now, no one likes paying taxes, I lose 22% of my salary each month to National Insurance and Income Tax, pay x amount a month for Council Tax, Road Tax, 20% Value Added Tax on anything deemed a luxury and don't even get me started on getting taxed at the pump twice, with Fuel Duty added on top. The coup de grace is having my savings taxed too.

But if we do away with taxation, then who is going to pay for the infrastructure and services?

You expect the world to run on altruism?

I am man enough to admit that freed from the shackles of taxation, you would have a hard time getting me to spend any money on anything except that which benefited me and mine. If everyone did the same, the world we lived in would probably be a worse place to live than it currently is.

Taxation is not perfect, but you can't disagree that as a premise it works.

(I numbered stuff to make it easier for reference)

1. Government is a construct of those with the strongest arms kicking the shyte out of everyone else and getting to power.

2. Taxation was originally meant to finance expenditure and allow for growth, but as I'm sure you know very well the system is badly abused. Though tbh, it's been abused through the millennia.

3. Decentralization & Privatization (the full infrastructure isn't there yet). Most of the things we pay for are private services, if they fail, we go to someone else (phone services for example). The government holds a monopoly on certain services, because holding a monopoly on these services enables them to enforce obedience through punishment (e.g. police, money, etc, can't think of others atm tbh). Competition breeds growth, monopolies breed corruption and staleness.

As an example to your last comment - What public services do you use that can't be privatized? Would you prefer to just pay your taxes to your local council if you KNEW exactly what your council was spending it on AND it was local matters? If everything was fully privatized and you had the option to pick and choose what services/company you and your family needed/wanted, would you prefer that? (I'm assuming you would tbh from what you said).

If government gives up certain things it means loss of power, but growth and more wealth and growth for yourself.
Jobe7
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 238


Now they are thinking what to do with me


View Profile
April 21, 2013, 08:40:52 PM
 #115

Government is a construct of a society seeking to organise itself to be more efficient.

basically I agree with what you wrote except for that line.

Efficiency has nothing to do with founding gov'ts.  Gov'ts are the least efficient allocators of resources known to man.

Many/most gov'ts were founded by gangs of thieves who conquered and subjected others in order to exploit them.  Some/few were founded by people to protect the people from gov'ts of the first order, but none remain of that persuasion to my knowledge.  Some have tried to dress themselves as if the people/society were a priority, but the laws, constitutions, and actions when observed in action do not support that stance.
you really have a fucked up sense of history.

@ Kokjo

How do you think governments are formed? Honestly, serious question.
phelix
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1708


nmc:id/phelix


View Profile
April 21, 2013, 08:41:45 PM
 #116

Isn't that a part of the attraction of bitcoin? You can AVOID tax?

And as for "realized gains", why not just sell your bitcoins offline to some person willing to show up at a coffee shop and pay cash?

All these threads about "how do I pay tax" sound like a cacophonous symphony of masochists screaming "Rape me! No, rape me first!"

Paperwork is painful enough. Why add to the misery?

Or at a minimum, why not just only sell back an amount equivalent to your initial investment and keep the BTC? The next time you take a holiday, or step out of the country, you can probably cash in some of your BTC and stay under the radar and avoid more paperwork. 

fyi: It currently looks like selling Bitcoins you held on to for more than a year is tax free in Germany. Just as with foreign currencies.

blockchained.com ■ bitcointalk top posts
Severian
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 476



View Profile
April 21, 2013, 08:44:26 PM
 #117


Pretty much every country is in debt to the banks (coughrothschildscough)

They had help: Rockefeller, Warburg, Morgan, etc....
Jobe7
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 238


Now they are thinking what to do with me


View Profile
April 21, 2013, 08:46:08 PM
 #118


Pretty much every country is in debt to the banks (coughrothschildscough)

They had help: Rockefeller, Warburg, Morgan, etc....

Aye true, but the bastichs are the ones that got the ball rolling .. grrrr

Mind you tbh, damn Bank of England started fiat (1694), just the Rothschilds that started interest.. (and then went and took over the Bank of England in 1812).
kokjo
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1050

You are WRONG!


View Profile
April 21, 2013, 08:46:51 PM
 #119

Government is a construct of a society seeking to organise itself to be more efficient.

basically I agree with what you wrote except for that line.

Efficiency has nothing to do with founding gov'ts.  Gov'ts are the least efficient allocators of resources known to man.

Many/most gov'ts were founded by gangs of thieves who conquered and subjected others in order to exploit them.  Some/few were founded by people to protect the people from gov'ts of the first order, but none remain of that persuasion to my knowledge.  Some have tried to dress themselves as if the people/society were a priority, but the laws, constitutions, and actions when observed in action do not support that stance.
you really have a fucked up sense of history.

@ Kokjo

How do you think governments are formed? Honestly, serious question.
the state of denmark became a democracy, to ensure the civil rights of the citizens, and to limit the kings power.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
Severian
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 476



View Profile
April 21, 2013, 08:52:10 PM
 #120

Aye true, but the bastichs are the ones that got the ball rolling .. grrrr

The Rothschilds transformed the interest system already in place. They just moved it to their family's advantage by buying governments all over Europe and the US. Wink

An excellent work on the subversion of the American government by Money and Oil (Rothschilds and Rockefellers) is "Wealth Against Commonwealth" by Henry Demarest Lloyd, late 19th century.
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!