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Author Topic: Why are people so eager to pay tax?  (Read 13268 times)
agaumoney
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May 25, 2013, 07:33:33 PM
 #281

Well I didn't sign the agreement to be part of this thing called society my ancestors did but if I want to participate in exchanges and not live alone in the wilderness I guess I am forced to make some compromises Smiley

You cannot live in the wilderness, it is against the law.
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freedomno1
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May 25, 2013, 11:10:18 PM
 #282

Well I didn't sign the agreement to be part of this thing called society my ancestors did but if I want to participate in exchanges and not live alone in the wilderness I guess I am forced to make some compromises Smiley

You cannot live in the wilderness, it is against the law.

Just move to Indian Land
http://infolific.com/leisure/wilderness-survival/legal-to-live-in-wilderness/
http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/wilderness-resources/photos/7-people-who-gave-up-on-civilization-to-live-in-the-wild/b
Does happen
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May 29, 2013, 02:18:29 AM
 #283

Quote from: RenegadeMind link=topic=182172.msg2208662#msg2208662 date=13690
When forced on people, Utopia invariably becomes Dystopia.
[/quote

Very well said, I intend to quote that a lot, As it can be backed up by history.

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Gareth Nelson
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June 03, 2013, 08:11:52 PM
 #284

there is no tax or regulations yet! think "embryonic currency"

some people are saying they have made a profit from selling coin and so they paid the appropriate tax as income

what they obviously don't realize is that there is no regulatory/legal requirement to do so as yet




Yes there is - it's pretty clear cut that if you make a profit in fiat then you become liable for tax, all disagreement with tax law to the contrary.
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June 03, 2013, 08:15:20 PM
 #285

there is no tax or regulations yet! think "embryonic currency"

some people are saying they have made a profit from selling coin and so they paid the appropriate tax as income

what they obviously don't realize is that there is no regulatory/legal requirement to do so as yet




Yes there is - it's pretty clear cut that if you make a profit in fiat then you become liable for tax, all disagreement with tax law to the contrary.


+1.

If you deal in Bitcoins entirely for purchases of goods or services then you never touch fiat and hence aren't liable for taxes.

Especially if the transaction is P2P or in person. No paper trail.

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Gareth Nelson
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June 03, 2013, 08:29:55 PM
 #286

there is no tax or regulations yet! think "embryonic currency"

some people are saying they have made a profit from selling coin and so they paid the appropriate tax as income

what they obviously don't realize is that there is no regulatory/legal requirement to do so as yet




Yes there is - it's pretty clear cut that if you make a profit in fiat then you become liable for tax, all disagreement with tax law to the contrary.


+1.

If you deal in Bitcoins entirely for purchases of goods or services then you never touch fiat and hence aren't liable for taxes.

Especially if the transaction is P2P or in person. No paper trail.

That's more complex - in some cases the market value of what goods you receive could be used to determine your income for tax reasons. Yes this is perverse, but that's the way it is.
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June 03, 2013, 08:59:11 PM
 #287

Under US law if a carpenter builds a deck for a dentist in exchange for getting a cavity filled then both of them are required to report the dollar value of their respective activities as income and pay taxes on it regardless of whether or not dollars are involved.

The US government claims that any profit-generating activity performed by a person it claims as a citizen, anywhere on this planet or elsewhere, generates a tax liability.  All profit*, in any form, no matter where.

In practice their ability to enforce this edict is nowhere near what it would need to be to extract revenue from every activity that meets their definition of taxable income.

*Except where specifically noted in the tax code.
mgio
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June 04, 2013, 03:27:13 PM
 #288

there is no tax or regulations yet! think "embryonic currency"

some people are saying they have made a profit from selling coin and so they paid the appropriate tax as income

what they obviously don't realize is that there is no regulatory/legal requirement to do so as yet




Yes there is - it's pretty clear cut that if you make a profit in fiat then you become liable for tax, all disagreement with tax law to the contrary.


+1.

If you deal in Bitcoins entirely for purchases of goods or services then you never touch fiat and hence aren't liable for taxes.

Especially if the transaction is P2P or in person. No paper trail.

Yes you are still liable for taxes. It is less likely that you would be caught, but you'd still owe the taxes.

Otherwise everyone would just buy gold to cash out their bitcoins and then sell the gold.
KeyserSoze
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June 04, 2013, 05:34:18 PM
 #289

People are eager to pay tax so the IRS can have lavish parties using "excess funds":
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/06/04/breaking-report-shows-lavish-spending-at-irs-conference/?hpt=hp_t2

Who doesn't like a good $4.1M party?

I used to day trade Bitcoin successfully. Then I took an arrow to the knee.
NewLiberty
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June 04, 2013, 06:51:54 PM
 #290

there is no tax or regulations yet! think "embryonic currency"

some people are saying they have made a profit from selling coin and so they paid the appropriate tax as income

what they obviously don't realize is that there is no regulatory/legal requirement to do so as yet


Yes there is - it's pretty clear cut that if you make a profit in fiat then you become liable for tax, all disagreement with tax law to the contrary.


+1.

If you deal in Bitcoins entirely for purchases of goods or services then you never touch fiat and hence aren't liable for taxes.

Especially if the transaction is P2P or in person. No paper trail.

Not having a reporting requirement category, does not mean there is no tax liability. but... 
The people in this forum are likely in every different tax situation imaginable.  So...
Don't take advice from this forum, get it from your accountant/lawyer who understands your situation and jurisdiction.

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pizza
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June 05, 2013, 04:04:18 AM
 #291

Under US law if a carpenter builds a deck for a dentist in exchange for getting a cavity filled then both of them are required to report the dollar value of their respective activities as income and pay taxes on it regardless of whether or not dollars are involved.

The US government claims that any profit-generating activity performed by a person it claims as a citizen, anywhere on this planet or elsewhere, generates a tax liability.  All profit*, in any form, no matter where.

In practice their ability to enforce this edict is nowhere near what it would need to be to extract revenue from every activity that meets their definition of taxable income.

*Except where specifically noted in the tax code.

This ^^, there is taxing on bartering, but the argument above seems to point at services and "profit-generating activity". In the above they are exchanging services for a specific dollar amount. There is no mention of exchanging a good for equal value of another good. For example if you take 4BTC and convert it into equal value of 24 Silver Coins, you did not earn any income you just converted value. It's like exchanging cheese or knives, even if the act itself is taxable since you are exchanging for an equal value there won't be a taxable event. Not to mention that exchanging goods is not mentioned at all.

The only time there will be a taxable event would be in the case that you exchange your silver into fiat, then you will be liable for capital gains. Once they make new regulations and codes it seems like you are paying tax that doesn't exist, you should probably get a refund for overpaying lol. Also, given the fact with the current IRS scandal I don't think we will see any guidance on taxing digital currencies, expect when you convert to fiat. Once you convert the "goods" (Digital Currency) into fiat, you then are liable for capital gains tax or Income tax if mining for profit or income.
justusranvier
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June 05, 2013, 05:40:21 AM
 #292

there is taxing on bartering, but the argument above seems to point at services and "profit-generating activity". In the above they are exchanging services for a specific dollar amount. There is no mention of exchanging a good for equal value of another good. For example if you take 4BTC and convert it into equal value of 24 Silver Coins, you did not earn any income you just converted value. It's like exchanging cheese or knives, even if the act itself is taxable since you are exchanging for an equal value there won't be a taxable event. Not to mention that exchanging goods is not mentioned at all.
Think about that for a second. If the IRS enforced the tax code using your interpretation there would be no such thing as taxable income. When a dealership trades you a car worth $20000 for $20000 in dollars that is an equal value trade yet the IRS very clearly demands a cut of the transaction.

Regardless of whether you think your definition is correct they'll still throw you in jail and confiscate your property if they catch you trying to use it. What they actually do is treat all received value as profit and then let you subtract certain types of expenses from that in order to calculate your income.

In the plumber and carpenter case if the IRS scrutinized the transaction the auditor would assess a dollar value for each service and then allow each person to claim the expenses they incurred by performing their respective portions, and the difference would be expected to be accounted for as income.

If you ever want to know which interpretation of the tax code is the one the IRS won't kidnap you, throw you in a cage, and steal your property for, just assume it's the interpretation that gives them the most money.
TheButterZone
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June 05, 2013, 08:06:40 AM
 #293

Just give them 100% of everything you own, cut off your limbs and give them those too, oh don't forget bags of the maximum amount of blood you can lose on a regular basis without dying.

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June 05, 2013, 05:59:34 PM
 #294

there is taxing on bartering, but the argument above seems to point at services and "profit-generating activity". In the above they are exchanging services for a specific dollar amount. There is no mention of exchanging a good for equal value of another good. For example if you take 4BTC and convert it into equal value of 24 Silver Coins, you did not earn any income you just converted value. It's like exchanging cheese or knives, even if the act itself is taxable since you are exchanging for an equal value there won't be a taxable event. Not to mention that exchanging goods is not mentioned at all.
Think about that for a second. If the IRS enforced the tax code using your interpretation there would be no such thing as taxable income. When a dealership trades you a car worth $20000 for $20000 in dollars that is an equal value trade yet the IRS very clearly demands a cut of the transaction.

Regardless of whether you think your definition is correct they'll still throw you in jail and confiscate your property if they catch you trying to use it. What they actually do is treat all received value as profit and then let you subtract certain types of expenses from that in order to calculate your income.

In the plumber and carpenter case if the IRS scrutinized the transaction the auditor would assess a dollar value for each service and then allow each person to claim the expenses they incurred by performing their respective portions, and the difference would be expected to be accounted for as income.

If you ever want to know which interpretation of the tax code is the one the IRS won't kidnap you, throw you in a cage, and steal your property for, just assume it's the interpretation that gives them the most money.

I get where he was going with it, just wasn't clearly defined as you stated with the car example.

EDIT: I was wrong... you have to pay capital gains tax on each transaction, whether you reinvest or not.  Though at least for home, generally they off-set each other, incurring gains if you down-size (aka have money left over after buying another home).
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June 05, 2013, 07:34:32 PM
 #295

"Eager to pay taxes" is an overly provocative statement. I am not eager, but i do recognize my obligation to pay taxes. If you think using BTC means that you no longer have to pay taxes, then you may be rudely informed by a judge just how wrong you are. 
You will be sent to jail just like any other tax cheat. And no, not bitjail.

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June 05, 2013, 11:33:04 PM
 #296

Just give them 100% of everything you own, cut off your limbs and give them those too, oh don't forget bags of the maximum amount of blood you can lose on a regular basis without dying.
i will admit to not reading the entire thread so this may be redundant. mea culpa in advance. first of all my interest in btc is because it is a libertarians wet dream. it is also an anarchists wet dream. the only way we will ever be free is to have our own currency beyond the control of the international banksters and their sock puppet governments,
i am both endlessly amused and disgusted by statists who always use the arguments of " but we won't have schools, hospitals, fire departments, and police departments, or the roads will fall apart"  first of all most of that is paid for with property taxes and sales taxes. second of all most of rural america uses volunteer fire departments there is no reason there could not be more of them. as for the schools , public education is a travesty and public schools GRADUATE more than 20% of their students who are functionally illiterate. if anyone has gone to a hospital lately i doubt they went to a public one. most hospitals these days are privately owned affairs owned by large corporations, ie . for profit. as for the roads well the american society of engineers has given our roads and bridges a D and it will take at least 3 trillion to get them up to  B.  all those tired arguments can be handled by free people making agreements and using the marketplace.

this country has only had an income tax since 1913. how in the world did we survive before that? the income tax was devised to pay off the debt from the illegal federal reserve currency scam.  what we do get for our tax money is perpetual war, state of the art drones, universal surveillance, ndaa, obomba care, tax breaks for the wealthy who write the laws, debt debt and more debt and inflation. while the wealthy and the coroporations pay little or nothing for the supposed benefits of taxes

what this breaks down to is statists versus non-statists. states use force and the threat of violence to operate and tax which is a claim on our labor. it is in fact a mafia. the only way t end this system and become free is to take the power away from the thugs and that power resides in their ability to create money out of thin air and force us to use it.
I am well aware of the consequences of fighting goliath (been doing it all my life) ia ma also aware of something called a conscience and a thing called the constitution which is being shredded before our very eyes. so it is up to each individual to decide for themselves haow to handle how they deal with the mafia. but if you are invested in bitcoins and support a fascist regime i suggest you look up " cognitive dissonsnce" g'day
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June 14, 2013, 12:28:15 PM
 #297

Well I didn't sign the agreement to be part of this thing called society my ancestors did but if I want to participate in exchanges and not live alone in the wilderness I guess I am forced to make some compromises Smiley

You cannot live in the wilderness, it is against the law.

You haven't seen Nell?


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June 14, 2013, 12:56:25 PM
 #298

Isn't that a part of the attraction of bitcoin? You can AVOID tax?

Maybe that's the attraction for some but not for me.

I don't look for ways to rip off society.
Personally I'm disgusted with the way my government uses a lot of its tax revenue, but part of being a productive member of society is paying taxes on what I have earned.

And the open nature of the blockchain makes it easier for an audit to track your BTC earnings than many people realize. If caught not reporting income, the government can lawfully seize my house and freeze my fiat accounts and even put me in jail.

Paying taxes is the right thing to do and avoids that risk.

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June 17, 2013, 03:24:15 PM
 #299

In the UK, we are pretty far up the creek still after this whole recession hoohaa. Our country could really do with a bit more money.

That is why you should pay tax in the UK. Residents consume numerous tax funded benefits such as roads, healthcare, schools, firefighters etc. If a country doesn't have money, it can't offer these services.

i am both endlessly amused and disgusted by statists who always use the arguments of " but we won't have schools, hospitals, fire departments, and police departments, or the roads will fall apart

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_government_austerity_programme#Cutting_back_quangos
"NHS Institute for Innovation and Improvement"  (health/hospitals)

Our tuition fees have tripled (education/schools)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-22932618 (fire fighters)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-22512584 (police)
http://www.transport-network.co.uk/DfT-facing-10-budget-cuts-in-next-spending-review/8609#.Ub8mbPmRDW4 (roads)

In the UK, with the majority of taxes, individual taxes don't go to solve individual problems - money from tax is put into a pot and then divided between required causes. So the argument "well other tax pays for x" is invalid.

The argument "well we've only paid tax since x year, how did we survive before then?" We've only had the NHS since 1948, we've only had a semi-comfortable rail, road and communications infrastructure for a couple of hundred years. It's possible to absorb the costs of doing nice things for a small community, but when it's millions of people, it costs.

We can spend all day bickering about who's fault it is that it's like this, or how much some idiots in power waste money on stupid things, exclaim how big corporations can get away with it so it's okay for us to lower ourselves to that level, but that's not going to help.

One thing that will help reduce cuts on vital services: pay your taxes. Not because there's a law that says so, but because you live in a country, in most cases, in a civil society and that doesn't come for free. As someone above said, by not paying taxes is a crime against society, not against authority.

Not only is it a crime against society, it's a crime against Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies.  If you want cryptocurrencies to be outlawed, or perceived to only be for criminals, then using them to avoid tax, and make outlandish claims such as "the whole point of Bitcoin is to avoid paying tax" is one of the fastest ways to do it.


As observed, there's a lot of people in here that have the mentality "there's no law making me/nobody will catch me if I don't pay tax so it's okay." There's no law that says you have to go to work, but if everyone stopped doing that, we'd be even further up the creek and casting away the paddle. There's probably a lot of sick/twisted things a person can do and not get caught - that doesn't make them right.


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June 17, 2013, 03:47:29 PM
 #300

I do not care about my country, because it does not care about me.
They spend it on all kinds of bullshit.
I'm already a slave to their tax system, from a birth, If there's a way to avoid it, I would go for it without any doubt.
I should not care about other people (the society) too, because it's a rat race, you can only survive by walking on other people's heads.

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