Bitcoin Island/City and More

[Elwar]

Every time I read about seasteading I have to ask myself if any of the people promoting the idea have ever been at sea in a storm.

No, the folks working on seasteads have no concept of waves. They just plan on putting house boats out in middle of the ocean and having a big party.

http://seasteading.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Feb2011_Report_p1.pdf

The wave theory considered here is limited to linear deep water gravity waves, i.e. linear in the sense that
‘small’ amplitude waves will be considered, and neglecting nonlinear effects, such as for instance the breaking waves. ‘Deep water’ refers to the fact that the influence of the bottom is neglected; this is a very
reasonable assumption provided the water depth exceeds one-half the wavelength of the longest waves
considered. ‘Gravity’ refers to the restoring force associated with the waves.
By the assumption of linearity, any sea-state may be regarded as being composed of a superposition of
sinusoidal waves. The surface profile of a traveling wave can be described by h=A sin(kx-ωt), where x and
t are space and time coordinates, k and ω are the wave-vector and angular frequency respectively, and A
is the amplitude.
These quantities can be shown to be related as: ω2=gk
Subject to the standard wave relations, T=2πω, f=ω2π, λ=2πk, c=ωk
Thus, every wavelength has a different speed of propagation, a characteristic of deep-water waves. Waves do not merely act on the surface, but their effect extends into the water. The relation between
depth and amplitude of a wave is exponential, and may be represented as a function of depth and
wavelength (or wave-vector) as A(z)= A exp(-k z). Thus, the effect of a wave diminishes quickly with
depth, and shorter waves decay faster than longer ones.
This results in a complete solution for a single wave component in terms of position, depth and time35:
u=ω A cosine (k x – ω t) exp(-k z)
v=ω A sin (k x – ω t) exp (-k z)
p=ρ g A cosine (k x – ω t) exp(-k z)
where u and v are horizontal and vertical velocity components, and p is the pressure disturbance due to
waves (not including hydrostatic pressure).
One relevant yet not intuitively obvious result is that a given patch of water tracked through the motion
of a gravity wave makes circular motion. Objects floating in water not otherwise disturbed will move as
much laterally as vertically.

The above section treats monochromatic waves. The actual waters of the sea can be thought of as a
linear superposition of such waves, of varying frequencies and directions.
The distribution of frequencies is in general not completely arbitrary, but follows a distribution clustered
around a dominant wavelength. This spectrum is typically characterized by two parameters; the
‘significant wave height’, Hs, and the peak period, Tp.
Formally, Hs(1/3), or Hs for short, is defined as the average height of the highest third of wave crests.
Instead of using the complete spectrum, in this report analysis proceeds by a simplified monochromatic
wave matching the parameters of the dominant component of the spectrum. This is of course a
simplification: some crests may be far higher than Hs; in fact, a wave of nearly twice Hs occurs with a
probability of 1/1000. But beyond this amplitude, probability diminishes significantly.
Often, a sea-state is composed of locally generated waves, and the residual waves of a storm in the
distance. This latter component is referred to as swell, and typically has a low frequency. If the swell
comes at an angle to the wind generated waves, the resulting sea is called a cross sea. Such conditions
are potentially hazardous to ships, because the hull cannot be aligned in two directions at once.
One aspect of open-sea waves that is typically underestimated is their length; again, waves coming up to
the shore are not representative, as in the process of running up on the shore, their wavelength is
compressed. On the open sea, the dominant wavelength may be up to hundreds of meters.

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[atomium]

Count me in!

[FinShaggy]

This is an amazing idea

[BTCLuke]

No, the folks working on seasteads have no concept of waves. They just plan on putting house boats out in middle of the ocean and having a big party.

Please don't assume that they are all that stupid. The blueseed bunch obviously isn't.

A model I built relied on interconnecting I-beams between platforms so that the entire island will be one horizontal plane without flex.

Another, more likely model I've heard of doesn't have separate platforms at all... It just builds land out of ferroconcrete with rebar woven in every direction, and the owner sells the land like any developer would sell plots. They calculated the flex to be acceptable in large swells as long as enough of the platform was built first. (Like a few square miles)

My approach was likely too expensive, so before I left actively working on seasteads I was leaning towards the latter. It could technically work, but I no longer believe that the existing governments of the world would allow it to happen at all. One torpedo from an anonymous submarine would end that experiment real quick.

[Elwar]

No, the folks working on seasteads have no concept of waves. They just plan on putting house boats out in middle of the ocean and having a big party.

Please don't assume that they are all that stupid. The blueseed bunch obviously isn't.

I was being facetious, see the large study on waves done by the Seasteading Institute below that.

My design was using ferrocement spheres built at a low enough cost that you could have thousands of them interconnected which could distribute the impact of the waves. As enough are built it becomes a sort of floating island that can keep expanding. Similar to the guy who made an island out of plastic bottles but more long term and at a higher volume.

[FinShaggy]

Have you guys considered getting together with people on other sites? I know their are lots of people doing/attempting things of this very nature.

[TomUnderSea]

No, the folks working on seasteads have no concept of waves. They just plan on putting house boats out in middle of the ocean and having a big party.

Please don't assume that they are all that stupid. The blueseed bunch obviously isn't.

I was being facetious, see the large study on waves done by the Seasteading Institute below that.

My design was using ferrocement spheres built at a low enough cost that you could have thousands of them interconnected which could distribute the impact of the waves. As enough are built it becomes a sort of floating island that can keep expanding. Similar to the guy who made an island out of plastic bottles but more long term and at a higher volume.

I am on,  in and under the ocean on a daily basis.  I have experience with a variety of energy sources at sea ranging from nuclear power to sail and including a variety of combustion engines and even various energy extraction systems using wind, wave and solar sources.  I have been at sea in conditions that were not survivable for any surface craft. 

The pretty mathematics posted do little justice for representing what the open ocean will do. 

If the approach of "just make it bigger" is a serious one, the stated concern about "one anonymous torpedo " is hogwash.  If one torpedo will sink your structure,  it will not survive a permanent presence in the open ocean.

Still looks like a bunch of  -topian geeks dreaming to be kinglets with no real understanding of the environment they are heading out into.


Reminds me of the dreams of the '49er miners as they headed for California.   The difference is they were on dry land.

When dealing with the ocean there is one rule.  A free surface is neither.

 

[cp1]

Wanted: Somebody to go back in time with me. This is not a joke.  You'll get paid after we get back. Must bring your own weapons. Safety not guaranteed. I have only done this once before.

[caveden]

I am on,  in and under the ocean on a daily basis.  I have experience with a variety of energy sources at sea ranging from nuclear power to sail and including a variety of combustion engines and even various energy extraction systems using wind, wave and solar sources.  I have been at sea in conditions that were not survivable for any surface craft. 

If that's the case, would you care to share your opinion on this debate? http://www.seasteading.org/2012/02/the-seasteading-institute-policy-on-submersible-seasteads/

As I know bullocks of naval engineering, I can only watch the discussions and can't make any opinion out of them. It would be nice if submersible seasteads could be made as cheap and reliably as their supporters claim they can be, since that would allow a much more incremental approach (you could have "family-sized seasteads"). If that's not the case - and TSI is emphatic when it says it is not -, then the only alternative left are big structures which would need to be shared among hundreds or even thousands of people - no small group of "normal" (not billionaires) people would ever be able to buy a ship or platform capable of resisting open sea waves, AFAICT.

[Anon136]

I am on,  in and under the ocean on a daily basis.  I have experience with a variety of energy sources at sea ranging from nuclear power to sail and including a variety of combustion engines and even various energy extraction systems using wind, wave and solar sources.  I have been at sea in conditions that were not survivable for any surface craft.  

If that's the case, would you care to share your opinion on this debate? http://www.seasteading.org/2012/02/the-seasteading-institute-policy-on-submersible-seasteads/

As I know bullocks of naval engineering, I can only watch the discussions and can't make any opinion out of them. It would be nice if submersible seasteads could be made as cheap and reliably as their supporters claim they can be, since that would allow a much more incremental approach (you could have "family-sized seasteads"). If that's not the case - and TSI is emphatic when it says it is not -, then the only alternative left are big structures which would need to be shared among hundreds or even thousands of people - no small group of "normal" (not billionaires) people would ever be able to buy a ship or platform capable of resisting open sea waves, AFAICT.

dont oil rigs get mined out? how much value can they possibly have then?

i mean sealand has been arguably successful. Abandoned oil platform is even larger but still maybe not too large to attract anyone's attention. How much couldit be? if i bought one would anyone go live there?

[caveden]

dont oil rigs get mined out? how much value can they possibly have then?

i mean sealand has been arguably successful. Abandoned oil platform is even larger but still maybe not too large to attract anyone's attention. How much couldit be? if i bought one would anyone go live there?

From what I've been reading these open sea capable structures (including platforms, but specially steel ships) have huge maintenance costs. Sometimes you can buy big ships for a cheap price, but that's simply because their maintenance is due and they don't think it's worthy doing it. It's probably valid for oil rigs too.
But again, I have absolutely no solid knowledge on naval engineering.

[Alex Zee]

Who the hell in their right mind would change the comfort of their home to an old, abandoned oil rig??? All for some abstract "freedom"? You can't be serious, guys

[FinShaggy]

Who the hell in their right mind would change the comfort of their home to an old, abandoned oil rig??? All for some abstract "freedom"? You can't be serious, guys

Who says they had a comfortable home?

And I don't see a problem with renting an abandoned oil rig, that actually seems pretty awesome.
No laws, plenty of space.

[Alex Zee]

And I don't see a problem with renting an abandoned oil rig, that actually seems pretty awesome.
No laws, plenty of space.

Yeah, like for a weekend. Play some golf, shoot some shotguns, you know, Bruce Willis stuff. Then go back home.

Hey, maybe this could be like an entertainment park? Crazy water slides into the open ocean, bungee jumping from the drilling tower, oil pipes throwing contests... Could be fun

[FinShaggy]

And I don't see a problem with renting an abandoned oil rig, that actually seems pretty awesome.
No laws, plenty of space.

Yeah, like for a weekend. Play some golf, shoot some shotguns, you know, Bruce Willis stuff. Then go back home.

Hey, maybe this could be like an entertainment park? Crazy water slides into the open ocean, bungee jumping from the drilling tower, oil pipes throwing contests... Could be fun

1) first person to get eaten by a shark... their family is gonna hire some pirates to literally come rock your entire world until it falls into the ocean.

2) It would be totally awesome though. I'd hang out there for more than a weekend, I'd spend summers and shit there. Maybe even retire in the ocean.

[Alex Zee]

2) It would be totally awesome though. I'd hang out there for more than a weekend, I'd spend summers and shit there. Maybe even retire in the ocean.

Well, yeah, if it's in Caribbean Could be a nice vacation. Can it be towed?

Not so great if it's somewhere in Alaska, though...

[Anon136]

i could maybe even make a viable business model out of renting it out for libertarian related stuff. Parties or speaking events or festivals.

[Anon136]

2) It would be totally awesome though. I'd hang out there for more than a weekend, I'd spend summers and shit there. Maybe even retire in the ocean.

Well, yeah, if it's in Caribbean Could be a nice vacation. Can it be towed?

Not so great if it's somewhere in Alaska, though...

no way oil platforms are bolted down

[Anon136]

dont oil rigs get mined out? how much value can they possibly have then?

i mean sealand has been arguably successful. Abandoned oil platform is even larger but still maybe not too large to attract anyone's attention. How much couldit be? if i bought one would anyone go live there?

From what I've been reading these open sea capable structures (including platforms, but specially steel ships) have huge maintenance costs. Sometimes you can buy big ships for a cheap price, but that's simply because their maintenance is due and they don't think it's worthy doing it. It's probably valid for oil rigs too.
But again, I have absolutely no solid knowledge on naval engineering.

i think we would scrap most everything on the platform other than the platform in order to make space. How hard can it be to maintain a platform? the sealand guy does it.

[FinShaggy]

2) It would be totally awesome though. I'd hang out there for more than a weekend, I'd spend summers and shit there. Maybe even retire in the ocean.

Well, yeah, if it's in Caribbean Could be a nice vacation. Can it be towed?

Not so great if it's somewhere in Alaska, though...

I don't think they can be moved, I may be wrong though.