tvbcof
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May 27, 2013, 05:56:09 AM |
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It's pretty obvious that the big draw for a lot of you people is that you don't have any real money or a very good idea of how to get any. So getting rich on BTC is great fodder to go along with fantasies of life in some Libertarian commune. No, It's obvious that you're referring to people who obviously don't understand free markets and entrepreneurship. Since these are basic core beliefs among libertarians, it's pretty safe to say that you're talking about non-libertarians with that remark. As best I can tell, the core belief of a Libertarian is if they can rip off someone, it means ipso-facto that they are superior and deserve to have the victims money by virtue of that alone. In practice, at least. Afterall, there are tons of CEOs of fortune 500 companies that are libertarians. Peter Thiel gives tons of money to libertarian causes every year.
So do the Koch bros. Looks like they are cultivating an army of dopes to support they scheme of distributing the costs (air pollution, cancer, etc) and privatize the gains. Unsurprisingly, putting money into your pocket is not really foremost on their list of priorities. I wish it were not such a far-flung fantasy because the rest of us would be better off if we didn't have to support you. What exactly is your problem with freedom bro? I'm all about freedom. I very much wish you to be free to spend $10k or whatever for some plot in some barren shithole wasteland, some part of a rock in the ocean, or fraction of a rusting barge. |
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Elwar
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Viva Ut Vivas
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May 27, 2013, 06:38:50 AM |
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As best I can tell, the core belief of a Libertarian is if they can rip off someone, it means ipso-facto that they are superior and deserve to have the victims money by virtue of that alone. In practice, at least.
Hmm, about the only thing that I ever hear libertarians saying that the government needs to prevent is force and fraud. Can someone be ripped off without fraud? |
First seastead company actually selling sea homes: Ocean Builders https://ocean.builders Of course we accept bitcoin. |
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tvbcof
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May 27, 2013, 07:00:35 AM |
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As best I can tell, the core belief of a Libertarian is if they can rip off someone, it means ipso-facto that they are superior and deserve to have the victims money by virtue of that alone. In practice, at least.
Hmm, about the only thing that I ever hear libertarians saying that the government needs to prevent is force and fraud. Can someone be ripped off without fraud? Ya, well, I'm not real versed in what Libertarian thinkers write, nor do I care alot about what they, or anyone else writes. My comment is more directly related to observations in Bitcoinland which is rife with Libertarians and has a truly impressive level of fraud, theft, and all manner of unseemly things going on. It also introduced me to the Laize Faire City thing which was both very entertaining and entirely predictable for such a structure. That the then editor of their paper and current principle in ButterFly Labs was also involved in ripping of seniors for $25M (a so-called 'colorful history in off-shore Libertarianism' to quote ~inaba) was completely non-surprising to me. Now to be fair, a lot of my friends and neighbors are Libertarians and I would trust them with my life and a fair amount of my money. And have. But that's no fun on this forum  |
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caveden
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May 27, 2013, 07:04:54 AM |
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As best I can tell, the core belief of a Libertarian is if they can rip off someone, it means ipso-facto that they are superior and deserve to have the victims money by virtue of that alone. In practice, at least.
Troll harder. |
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BTCLuke
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May 27, 2013, 07:13:47 AM |
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As best I can tell, the core belief of a Libertarian is if they can rip off someone, it means ipso-facto that they are superior and deserve to have the victims money by virtue of that alone. So you've never heard of the non-aggression principle? You don't even know what it is to be free, do you? I'd love to see you attempt to define freedom. Afterall, there are tons of CEOs of fortune 500 companies that are libertarians. Peter Thiel gives tons of money to libertarian causes every year. So do the Koch bros. Looks like they are cultivating an army of dopes to support they scheme of distributing the costs (air pollution, cancer, etc) and privatize the gains. The Koch brothers are about as corporacratic as they come. Pretty much the embodiment of what libertarians are fighting against. |
Luke Parker
Bank Abolitionist
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tvbcof
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May 27, 2013, 07:29:52 AM |
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As best I can tell, the core belief of a Libertarian is if they can rip off someone, it means ipso-facto that they are superior and deserve to have the victims money by virtue of that alone. In practice, at least.
Troll harder. Fuck! I'm going to have to. I still only have '8-13' ignores. I thought sure this would bump me up to the next level  --- In actual fact, I believe most everything I say here and think it is worthwhile that casual observers don't come to the conclusion that Bitcoin is a complete Libertarian mono-culture. OTOH, I'm hardly a 'rah, rah, go-team' analyst of Bitcoin itself either, so I'm not sure how much good it does for the cause. But I ramble... |
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Anon136
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May 28, 2013, 01:22:03 AM |
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I'd love to see you attempt to define freedom.
ooh im not tvbcof but i wanna give it a try, it sounds like a fun challenge. freedom: the ability to act without interference which would prevent or make more difficult the realization of ones goals. tell me what do you think? |
Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited? |
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tvbcof
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May 28, 2013, 01:39:50 AM |
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I'd love to see you attempt to define freedom.
ooh im not tvbcof but i wanna give it a try, it sounds like a fund challenge. freedom: the ability to act without interference which would prevent or make more difficult the realization of ones goals. tell me what do you think? I like it well enough, but it does seem slightly on the self-centered side. Like it or not, humans are social beasts so there is also an obligation to be responsible within the context of a social structure. If one a rare individual who is pretty self sufficient in most of their needs (e.g., Ted Kaczynski) then you should be free to life that lifestyle. Without maiming innocent civilians of course. If not, you have to act in a manner that allows society to exist in the form that most fellow humans find tolerable. |
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Anon136
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May 28, 2013, 02:06:01 AM |
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I'd love to see you attempt to define freedom.
ooh im not tvbcof but i wanna give it a try, it sounds like a fund challenge. freedom: the ability to act without interference which would prevent or make more difficult the realization of ones goals. tell me what do you think? I like it well enough, but it does seem slightly on the self-centered side. Like it or not, humans are social beasts so there is also an obligation to be responsible within the context of a social structure. If one a rare individual who is pretty self sufficient in most of their needs (e.g., Ted Kaczynski) then you should be free to life that lifestyle. Without maiming innocent civilians of course. If not, you have to act in a manner that allows society to exist in the form that most fellow humans find tolerable. Right definitely you make some good points but i think you are making the mistake of assuming that what ever the definition of freedom is that freedom is a good thing. The truth is that freedom is very often a bad thing. So for example you can talk about an axe murderers freedom to axe murder. This freedom would be very bad indeed and should not be allowed. this isnt a problem with the definition of freedom, we shouldnt be searching for a definition that covers all of the good forms of freedom and leaves out all of the bad forms, we should just accept that freedom is sometimes very bad indeed. |
Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited? |
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tvbcof
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May 28, 2013, 02:31:40 AM |
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Right definitely you make some good points but i think you are making the mistake of assuming that what ever the definition of freedom is that freedom is a good thing. The truth is that freedom is very often a bad thing. So for example you can talk about an axe murderers freedom to axe murder. This freedom would be very bad indeed and should not be allowed.
this isnt a problem with the definition of freedom, we shouldnt be searching for a definition that covers all of the good forms of freedom and leaves out all of the bad forms, we should just accept that freedom is sometimes very bad indeed.
I don't think I am making that mistake. It is plain to me that if there were only 'good freedom', the term itself would be useless and we would have no freedom at all. Plus it would be a very boring world. The definition I like best is 'your freedom to swing your fist stops where my nose starts.' What drives me nuts about Libertarians is that some of them/you seem incapable of understanding 'risk' and why it is wrong to put someone else at risk against their will/knowledge even in the cases where nothing bad comes of it. There was a protracted conversation about drunk driving some time back. I was frankly aghast as what some of the Libertarians here seemed to actually believe in their heart of hearts about what is appropriate behavior in a world filled with other people besides themselves. |
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Stampbit
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May 28, 2013, 03:01:44 AM |
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ah ok, why not just start a city that uses gold as currency instead of being reliant on both electricity and internet to survive.
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QuestionAuthority
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You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
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May 28, 2013, 03:08:21 AM |
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ah ok, why not just start a city that uses gold as currency instead of being reliant on both electricity and internet to survive.
Stop being rational. That just pisses off people around here. |
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BTCLuke
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May 28, 2013, 03:56:07 AM |
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freedom: the ability to act without interference which would prevent or make more difficult the realization of ones goals.
tell me what do you think? Not bad, but it says nothing about the fruit of your labors. How can you be free if you're not allowed to keep your own property, such as things you bought and made? Slavery is very specifically defined in economics as the lack of being able to keep the fruit of your production... So a cotton-picking slave on a 1700's plantation was easily defined as 0% free, since he kept 0% of the cotton he picked. We like to think of ourselves as 100% free today, but as long as there is someone or something else taking the fruit of your labors from you, then you are a slave of the same percentage that your labors have been taken. Taxation takes well over 50% of most American's income alone, and inflation takes another noticeable chunk. Land of the free, indeed. Like it or not, humans are social beasts so there is also an obligation to be responsible within the context of a social structure. Wow. I'm really unsure if you're trolling now... I find it impossible to believe that to define freedom there is someone on this planet who has to bring "obligation" into it. You're either trolling hard or you don't understand... well, ....anything. Here's a great little vid that teaches the philosophy of liberty: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y6g0PU2OIc |
Luke Parker
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tvbcof
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May 28, 2013, 04:15:45 AM |
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Like it or not, humans are social beasts so there is also an obligation to be responsible within the context of a social structure. Wow. I'm really unsure if you're trolling now... Nah. I stopped when it seemed that someone wanted to try to have a rational conversation. I find it impossible to believe that to define freedom there is someone on this planet who has to bring "obligation" into it.
You're either trolling hard or you don't understand... well, ....anything.
So take the null hypothesis then. It explains why you guys are, and will continue to be, outcasts. Until you mature a little bit anyway which most of you will eventually do. My computer doesn't do flash. But I've been pointed to countless snoozer documents and video which you guys seem to feel provides some sort of biblical enlightenment but which I find to be the same tired old tripe. I don't figure I'm missing much here. |
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benjamindees (OP)
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May 28, 2013, 06:01:28 AM |
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That's actually kind of hilarious. At first, I was like, oh that sounds reasonable. Then it just kind of went directly downhill. |
Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics
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FinShaggy
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May 28, 2013, 06:23:37 AM |
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That's actually kind of hilarious. At first, I was like, oh that sounds reasonable. Then it just kind of went directly downhill. Lol, way to read one thing from ONE guy that didn't even read the thread before forming an opinion. |
If everyone is thinking outside the box, there is a new box.
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FinShaggy
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May 28, 2013, 06:25:39 AM |
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THIS quote shows what the town is.What was in that link is half from a work called "The Americas Manifesto" and the other half from a proposal to the town of McKinney Texas. Nothing to do directly with Bitcoin Town, it just happened to be posted in the thread. The mission of the town is: Freedom, as guaranteed by the constitution of America All you need to start a town in 51% of the people's vote, and a written constitution or some other founding document. If we invest in our own town we can be the founders, and with BTC it will make it easier for us to come together from around the world to get this done. As well as not worry about paying taxes as long as we don't exchange cash. And we could have the elected town leaders pay federal taxes and do all our fiat exchanges for us, so that our "no tax town" system is viable. And you only need 6 acres of people to agree... So I looked online and there are patches of land that are 600 acres (nearly 1 square mile) for sale in New Mexico. If 200 people each put in $10,000 (or equivalent in BTC) the property would be ours (I think this could be accomplished in 1 year). And at that point we could start using the land to farm and produce things and anyone who could afford a house or an Earthship could start building, while anyone else can rent their land out to earn money, or sell it (we will all come together and vote on what the land can and cannot be used for during this time) and once we have some communal money we can help people build Earthships and start working on Solar power and getting a super solid internet connection. Then we could start building FPGAs and ASICs, while we farm and produce what we can. I feel New Mexico would be the best place to start something like this for a few reasons: 1. Billy the Kid ran out the Illuminati by starting a war against the corrupt "Justice System" where the people were literally shooting at cops. 2. the Freemasons messed up with their farming methods which was the reason for the "dust bowl". So all the people that would oppose Bitcoin are gone (central bankers and such). 3. Land is cheap in New Mexico. 4. It is a good place for affordable "Earthship" living, and could easily accommodate regular housing as well. 5. Tons of sun all year round, so we could try to start the community with some solar power, and work towards making it all solar powered. And anyone who wanted to farm could. Once the town got started we would buy a some tractors, and use them to build better roads and farm better. Then we can start opening gift shops and things like that, and eventually work on starting our own franchises, or bringing a few to town and accepting bitcoin. But we could make it a town where no one pays taxes, and the "town government" is nothing but a service. We will be attempting to start a restaurant, so that the town has a good place to eat and food supply ready to move in right when we get there If we can't start the restaurant before the town, we will start it IN town once we have a small community. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=217610.msg2288125#msg2288125http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxuPoed0H7EThe things that we plan to have on the menu so far are these: Pancakes Eggs/Omelets Burgers (REAL ones, not like McDonalds) Funnel Cake French Fries Carne Asada Burritos (and every other variation of tortilla and contents, which means chips and salsa too) Noodles Sandwhiches A Salad Bar And anyone involved's "specialty" We will also offer trailers to bury and use as basements, or use above ground as housing:   And our EarthShips will be different than most: 1. Each person will have at least three acres, so we won't be making small ones. 2. Geodomes outside will be used as green houses, making more room in the larger EarthShips 3. Trailers will be used to make basements, allowing for WAY more space. And again, an outside company will be contracted for regular building, these will just be built for anyone that wants publically built housing. You only get a Earthship if you want a FREE house
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If everyone is thinking outside the box, there is a new box.
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arklan
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May 28, 2013, 10:04:08 AM |
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...you... i... but... i mean...
i give up.
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i don't post much, but this space for rent.
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Anon136
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May 28, 2013, 11:35:09 AM |
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Right definitely you make some good points but i think you are making the mistake of assuming that what ever the definition of freedom is that freedom is a good thing. The truth is that freedom is very often a bad thing. So for example you can talk about an axe murderers freedom to axe murder. This freedom would be very bad indeed and should not be allowed.
this isnt a problem with the definition of freedom, we shouldnt be searching for a definition that covers all of the good forms of freedom and leaves out all of the bad forms, we should just accept that freedom is sometimes very bad indeed.
'your freedom to swing your fist stops where my nose starts.' a) that isnt a definition b) you cant use the word you are defining in its own definition |
Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited? |
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Anon136
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May 28, 2013, 11:54:25 AM |
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freedom: the ability to act without interference which would prevent or make more difficult the realization of ones goals.
tell me what do you think? Not bad, but it says nothing about the fruit of your labors. How can you be free if you're not allowed to keep your own property, such as things you bought and made? It seems we are dealing with two different possible definitions. One is the more specific sense of having the freedom to do something and the other is to "be free" in general sense. the former is a very concrete and easily defined idea with clear boarders. the latter is a very nebulous and fuzzy idea subject to a great deal of interpretation depending on peoples constantly shifting preferences for the best tradeoffs for situations where peoples freedoms (in the specific sense) come into conflict. So on the latter i could only give my opinion as to what that word means in that context and could make no claim to be "correct". But i would say it has something to do with living in a society which practices laws and customs which find the best trade off between maximizing total utility for a society as a whole and making sure that the benefits of this increase are not overly concentrated. private property, markets and non-aggression being good rules of thumb to achieving these ends. |
Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited? |
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