Why dumps are important

[BTCLovingDude]

why are you even arguing about altcoin dumps? that is an entirely different story with a completely different reason than the dumps that happen in bitcoin. and reading the topic and opening post i see it is all about bitcoin not altcoins.

any bitcoin dump is simply a manipulation unless there is a valid reason for quitting bitcoin and that reason has not yet happened.
any altcoin dump has that valid reason. traders are quitting that altcoin to take their money out and put it in another thing to make more of it and then another and so on.

back to the topic, i agree with OP that these dumps in bitcoin are important and can potentially be a good thing that we can all use as regular users that are not whales. when they dump their stash becomes open to public, so far public panics most of the time and they buy back more because price goes down and they become bigger whales but as the buy support grows their power diminishes.

[deisik]

and about the relevance, there is since a coin can be dump into oblivion way below than 1 satoshi, that is why I said there is another trading pair than Bitcoin - altcoin since you stated

Not all dumps are born equal

With a shitty coin, no more dump can only happen when it gets sold for just 1 satoshi in whatever amounts.

I guess it is not a good practice to twist your point as it best suits your needs whatever they might be. At first, you commented on my post where I gave an example of a shitcoin which has no more buyers, and in that very post I specifically addressed this issue ("how such one shit coin could stand against another shit [coin] is a different matter, though, but it will be a waste of time anyway"). It should be straightforward that I referred to dumps in respect to Bitcoin. So should I repeat it again that trading a shit coin against another shit coin is a waste of time for the majority of traders? I'm not denying such a possibility (which should be obvious as well from my posts), I'm basically asserting that it doesn't make sense if only from a purely academic or theoretical interest. But if you are in exclusively for profits, that's pretty much it (i.e. waste of time)

In short, do you yourself trade shit coins which are priced at less than 1 satoshi?

[lionheart78]

why are you even arguing about altcoin dumps? that is an entirely different story with a completely different reason than the dumps that happen in bitcoin. and reading the topic and opening post i see it is all about bitcoin not altcoins.

any bitcoin dump is simply a manipulation unless there is a valid reason for quitting bitcoin and that reason has not yet happened.
any altcoin dump has that valid reason. traders are quitting that altcoin to take their money out and put it in another thing to make more of it and then another and so on.

back to the topic, i agree with OP that these dumps in bitcoin are important and can potentially be a good thing that we can all use as regular users that are not whales. when they dump their stash becomes open to public, so far public panics most of the time and they buy back more because price goes down and they become bigger whales but as the buy support grows their power diminishes.

yeah I guess you are right sorry to derail the topic, I do agree with OP too,whether it is a manipulation or not, a dip in price  does really help  other people to get in and make Bitcoin community more stronger.  The problem with the manipulated dump is that whales know it and will intentionally crash the price to accumulate more.  It is the possibility we cannot neglect.  Though with it comes new comers that buys in and start supporting Bitcoin too.

and about the relevance, there is since a coin can be dump into oblivion way below than 1 satoshi, that is why I said there is another trading pair than Bitcoin - altcoin since you stated

Not all dumps are born equal

With a shitty coin, no more dump can only happen when it gets sold for just 1 satoshi in whatever amounts.

I guess it is not a good practice to twist your point as it best suits your needs whatever they might be. At first, you commented on my post where I gave an example of a shitcoin which has no more buyers, and in that very post I specifically addressed this issue ("how such one shit coin could stand against another shit [coin] is a different matter, though, but it will be a waste of time anyway"). It should be straightforward that I referred to dumps in respect to Bitcoin. So should I repeat it again that trading a shit coin against another shit coin is a waste of time for the majority of traders? It may make some sense from a purely academic or theoretical interest, but if you are in for profits, that's pretty much it (i.e. waste of time)

I was thinking of cryptocurrency in general and not specifically Bitcoin alone. So, I guess there comes the misunderstanding  

In short, do you yourself trade shit coins which are priced at less than 1 satoshi?

I do, traders trade where there is profit (I am not counting myself as one of them but I do trade), emotion neglected

add on: waste of time or not depends on the person's perspective.  Why are you trading? Profit? If it is fulfilled it is not a waste of time.

[deisik]

In short, do you yourself trade shit coins which are priced at less than 1 satoshi?

I do, traders trade where there is profit (I am not counting myself as one of them but I do trade), emotion neglected

So are you actually buying these shit coins?

For example, with doges or just selling them to get out of your position and save some dough? Could you post a chart (or a link to such). Not that I doubt your words (this is your business, after all), I'm rather curious to see how well coins fare in their "afterlife", so to speak. I would be interested to look at a price chart for a coin which is left for dead in Bitcoin terms but is still being traded against some other more or less decent coin (like, say, Dogecoin or Litecoin)

[lionheart78]

In short, do you yourself trade shit coins which are priced at less than 1 satoshi?

I do, traders trade where there is profit (I am not counting myself as one of them but I do trade), emotion neglected

So are you actually buying these shit coins?

For example, with doges or just selling them to get out of your position and save some dough? Could you post a chart (or a link to such). Not that I doubt your words (this is your business, after all), I'm rather curious to see how well coins fare in their "afterlife", so to speak. I would be interested to look at a price chart for a coin which is left for dead in Bitcoin terms but is still being traded against some other more or less decent coin (like, say, Dogecoin or Litecoin)

Told you i do not consider myself as heavy traders as others,  I can give you some, but rather looking at the exchange chart would make a better statement than my trading chart. LTC - Doge pairs;  Doge - Mooncoin chart  this will give you a more solid information.

[ethereumhunter]

i think dumps are important to controlled the price that will not jump too high because once the price is getting too higher from the last price, then many traders can not buy and i think its about balancing in the price. some people is make the price up to reach new price and the other people is handling to control and make sure the price is not too high at this time.

[deisik]

In short, do you yourself trade shit coins which are priced at less than 1 satoshi?

I do, traders trade where there is profit (I am not counting myself as one of them but I do trade), emotion neglected

So are you actually buying these shit coins?

For example, with doges or just selling them to get out of your position and save some dough? Could you post a chart (or a link to such). Not that I doubt your words (this is your business, after all), I'm rather curious to see how well coins fare in their "afterlife", so to speak. I would be interested to look at a price chart for a coin which is left for dead in Bitcoin terms but is still being traded against some other more or less decent coin (like, say, Dogecoin or Litecoin)

Told you i do not consider myself as heavy traders as others,  I can give you some, but rather looking at the exchange chart would make a better statement than my trading chart. LTC - Doge pairs;  Doge - Mooncoin chart  this will give you a more solid information

Dogecoin is a decent coin which is still well above 1 doge per 1 satoshi price

Though its future is rather dim if not outright grim. In fact, I had earned decent profits by trading dogecoins a couple years ago. Regarding the other coin in your post, Mooncoin, it is worth looking at the orderbook totals for both asks and bids. Asks total to 10,691,927,002,071.645 dogecoins, i.e. so many mooncoins (in dogecoin terms) people are wanting to exchange for dogecoins (just in case, this is over 10T dogecoins which is above the total number of dogecoins coins ever issued) while the bid side totals only 2,227,202.601 dogecoins (a little over 2M dogecoins), i.e. so many dogecoins people want to exchange for mooncoins (which is well below 1 bitcoin if I'm not mistaken). That basically proves my point, i.e. buying mooncoin is a waste of time and money

[Doamader]

Well poloniex had build an amazing cash machine with the lending and margin, and yes i had saw too the rates getting insane when bitcoin had dumped into the 900 dollars, 0,15% were the rate i found, and i knew it would reverse the dump because buy walls were strong.
For people be interested into invest the coin need high volatilaty 5-20% its amazing rates, thats why forex has soo many costumers and huge investment, if you lucky enought you will make easy money.

[evilgreed]

It is kind of important what you mentioned but it is also important that bitcoin gets a dump because it helps the smaller investors a lot as they normally wait for price to deduce and ya after a dump till date they growth in price has been stable. And after all bitcoin is like a stock itself so dump is something which will surely occur.

Yes i agree with you, Well its because I'm also a small scale investor. And it really helps a lot.

[deisik]

Additionally, I do believe the most recent price crash was a bit of market manipulation by large traders. As an anecdote, the rate to borrow margin on poloniex went from the typical .02 to .03 percent daily rate, to typically .25 to .45 percent, and I had one offer accepted as high as .77 percent. This suggests to me that traders were buying up as much margin as they could to trade the volatility, which I believe they created for that purpose. With how fast the price was dropping, it looked to be all shorting action with that margin. But this is also a theory

I don't really think that it was ordinary traders who initiated the panic selling

But they did actually contribute to the volatility since that's what basically margin trading does in general. When people see the prices start to fall dramatically, they will quite naturally try to squeeze as much profit from the price movement as possible, including borrowing bitcoins for shoring them. Thus you will see interest rates spike. But since they are selling the borrowed coins they will inadvertently contribute to prices going even lower. So this is not an anecdote but a harsh reality of margin trading. But this is also dangerous as hell since it leads to markets being severely oversold, and those who borrow the last will suffer heavy losses in the end because when the price rebounds, they will have to close their short positions and likely on margin calls (i.e. exchange closing them)

[bitbunnny]

Dumps are some kind of Bitcoin price correction but I don't think we can create them intentionaly. They are depending on the rules and situation on the Bitcoin market. Of course they help small users to get some more coins so for that they are convenient but I wouldn't say they are created for that purpose.

[deisik]

Since it was your point, not mine, after all. It was your assumption that dumps might happen due to many new folks becoming new whales because of the prices skyrocketing. I agree with such a possibility (since this is what I'm essentially saying myself, i.e. that higher prices contribute to even higher volatility) but as I suspect, the burden of proof is still lying on you. And after you provide evidence for that assumption, we can discuss this issue further (if you feel inclined to, of course)

I dont think I said this and if I said something you might have misunderstood me or maybe you may even have made a mistake in thinking that was me. But please quote the post you are talking about then we can discuss it more. There must be a little misunderstanding. Its hard when youre not talking to someone face to face

I thought it was your post after all:

If that happens more then maybe BTC could be considered making and supporting an unhealthy market? If there are more and more whales born in the system that could move the price up and down, the more people should avoid this type of market

I guess this is what you said exactly ("more and more whales born in the system"). Again, I don't deny that it might be the case since, in fact, this is what I think myself. More specifically, that with the price surging the market is necessarily thinning and thus folks with the same amount of coins can move the price stronger, or (which is the same) the less amount of coins is needed to move the price by the same value. But my agreement with this point of view doesn't magically make me obliged to prove it. As I said, the burden of proof is still on you, i.e. if there are really more whales born in the system or not, since it was your assumption in the first place, not mine

But if it was not you posting from your account but someone else, then I feel sorry

[bajing]

IMO dumps are important only for some bitcoin user that have big capital so they can get bitcoin with cheap prices even though in fact dump and pump are same important for bitcoin users.

[lionheart78]

In short, do you yourself trade shit coins which are priced at less than 1 satoshi?

I do, traders trade where there is profit (I am not counting myself as one of them but I do trade), emotion neglected

So are you actually buying these shit coins?

For example, with doges or just selling them to get out of your position and save some dough? Could you post a chart (or a link to such). Not that I doubt your words (this is your business, after all), I'm rather curious to see how well coins fare in their "afterlife", so to speak. I would be interested to look at a price chart for a coin which is left for dead in Bitcoin terms but is still being traded against some other more or less decent coin (like, say, Dogecoin or Litecoin)

Told you i do not consider myself as heavy traders as others,  I can give you some, but rather looking at the exchange chart would make a better statement than my trading chart. LTC - Doge pairs;  Doge - Mooncoin chart  this will give you a more solid information

Dogecoin is a decent coin which is still well above 1 doge per 1 satoshi price

Though its future is rather dim if not outright grim. In fact, I had earned decent profits by trading dogecoins a couple years ago. Regarding the other coin in your post, Mooncoin, it is worth looking at the orderbook totals for both asks and bids. Asks total to 10,691,927,002,071.645 dogecoins, i.e. so many mooncoins (in dogecoin terms) people are wanting to exchange for dogecoins (just in case, this is over 10T dogecoins which is above the total number of dogecoins coins ever issued) while the bid side totals only 2,227,202.601 dogecoins (a little over 2M dogecoins), i.e. so many dogecoins people want to exchange for mooncoins (which is well below 1 bitcoin if I'm not mistaken). That basically proves my point, i.e. buying mooncoin is a waste of time and money

Mooncoin is a POW coins and is still being mined, developers i think is still active and this is more than 2 years coin.  If you are to hoard mooncoin when buying it since it has not much of use I do agree that it is a waste of time and money but if a person is in for a profit taking advantage of the fluctuation then it is actually a good choice if the person have little budget.  It was actively trading in cryptsy before I had my profit from trading it in LTC Market.

IMO dumps are important only for some bitcoin user that have big capital so they can get bitcoin with cheap prices even though in fact dump and pump are same important for bitcoin users.

I think you have missed the point of getting into bitcoin in cheaper price.  Dump is not only important to those who have big capital but to all who are wanting to buy Bitcoin.  Just imagine if you have $2000 fund to buy bitcoin, and the current price when you are thinking to buy is at $1300  then the next day it goes down to $950, you can actually feel the difference on how much you can buy  BTC.  Instead of having less than 2 BTC, because of the dump, you are able to buy more than 2 BTC.  Same applies to those who have smaller fund.

[deisik]

In short, do you yourself trade shit coins which are priced at less than 1 satoshi?

I do, traders trade where there is profit (I am not counting myself as one of them but I do trade), emotion neglected

So are you actually buying these shit coins?

For example, with doges or just selling them to get out of your position and save some dough? Could you post a chart (or a link to such). Not that I doubt your words (this is your business, after all), I'm rather curious to see how well coins fare in their "afterlife", so to speak. I would be interested to look at a price chart for a coin which is left for dead in Bitcoin terms but is still being traded against some other more or less decent coin (like, say, Dogecoin or Litecoin)

Told you i do not consider myself as heavy traders as others,  I can give you some, but rather looking at the exchange chart would make a better statement than my trading chart. LTC - Doge pairs;  Doge - Mooncoin chart  this will give you a more solid information

Dogecoin is a decent coin which is still well above 1 doge per 1 satoshi price

Though its future is rather dim if not outright grim. In fact, I had earned decent profits by trading dogecoins a couple years ago. Regarding the other coin in your post, Mooncoin, it is worth looking at the orderbook totals for both asks and bids. Asks total to 10,691,927,002,071.645 dogecoins, i.e. so many mooncoins (in dogecoin terms) people are wanting to exchange for dogecoins (just in case, this is over 10T dogecoins which is above the total number of dogecoins coins ever issued) while the bid side totals only 2,227,202.601 dogecoins (a little over 2M dogecoins), i.e. so many dogecoins people want to exchange for mooncoins (which is well below 1 bitcoin if I'm not mistaken). That basically proves my point, i.e. buying mooncoin is a waste of time and money

Mooncoin is a POW coins and is still being mined, developers i think is still active and this is more than 2 years coin.  If you are to hoard mooncoin when buying it since it has not much of use I do agree that it is a waste of time and money but if a person is in for a profit taking advantage of the fluctuation then it is actually a good choice if the person have little budget.  It was actively trading in cryptsy before I had my profit from trading it in LTC Market

You don't get it

I don't know how much Mooncoin was worth 2 years at launch or soon thereafter, but if the whole orderbook (the Bid side obviously) has less than 1 bitcoin in total, basically, you can't earn anything. I just checked the prices and 2.2M dogecoins roughly equals 0.5 BTC, and this is the size of all demand for this coin at that exchange presently. Now think how much you could earn even if the price of this coin doesn't go down. I guess using faucets would give you more profits and safely at that (and you wouldn't need a budget for that altogether)

[lionheart78]

In short, do you yourself trade shit coins which are priced at less than 1 satoshi?

I do, traders trade where there is profit (I am not counting myself as one of them but I do trade), emotion neglected

So are you actually buying these shit coins?

For example, with doges or just selling them to get out of your position and save some dough? Could you post a chart (or a link to such). Not that I doubt your words (this is your business, after all), I'm rather curious to see how well coins fare in their "afterlife", so to speak. I would be interested to look at a price chart for a coin which is left for dead in Bitcoin terms but is still being traded against some other more or less decent coin (like, say, Dogecoin or Litecoin)

Told you i do not consider myself as heavy traders as others,  I can give you some, but rather looking at the exchange chart would make a better statement than my trading chart. LTC - Doge pairs;  Doge - Mooncoin chart  this will give you a more solid information

Dogecoin is a decent coin which is still well above 1 doge per 1 satoshi price

Though its future is rather dim if not outright grim. In fact, I had earned decent profits by trading dogecoins a couple years ago. Regarding the other coin in your post, Mooncoin, it is worth looking at the orderbook totals for both asks and bids. Asks total to 10,691,927,002,071.645 dogecoins, i.e. so many mooncoins (in dogecoin terms) people are wanting to exchange for dogecoins (just in case, this is over 10T dogecoins which is above the total number of dogecoins coins ever issued) while the bid side totals only 2,227,202.601 dogecoins (a little over 2M dogecoins), i.e. so many dogecoins people want to exchange for mooncoins (which is well below 1 bitcoin if I'm not mistaken). That basically proves my point, i.e. buying mooncoin is a waste of time and money

Mooncoin is a POW coins and is still being mined, developers i think is still active and this is more than 2 years coin.  If you are to hoard mooncoin when buying it since it has not much of use I do agree that it is a waste of time and money but if a person is in for a profit taking advantage of the fluctuation then it is actually a good choice if the person have little budget.  It was actively trading in cryptsy before I had my profit from trading it in LTC Market

You don't get it

I don't know how much Mooncoin was worth 2 years at launch or soon thereafter, but if the whole orderbook (the Bid side obviously) has less than 1 bitcoin in total, basically, you can't earn anything. I just checked the prices and 2.2M dogecoins roughly equals 0.5 BTC, and this is the size of all demand for this coin at that exchange presently. Now think how much you could earn even if the price of this coin doesn't go down. I guess using faucets would give you more profits and safely at that (and you wouldn't need a budget for that altogether)

The demand (buy wall) does not mean the volume though I failed to check that day volume.  I won't argue with your point of view since you want to see it that way and further derail the thread.  I think you really need to experience it to understand how things goes with such kind of trading.  Theory often times change when applied into practice since not all factors are constant .

[X-ray]

IMO dumps are important only for some bitcoin user that have big capital so they can get bitcoin with cheap prices even though in fact dump and pump are same important for bitcoin users.

Pump and dump are important games on the cryptocurrency. No dump and no pump, no pump and no dump. Every thing will be having the opposite things such as the word of pump. it was having the opposite thing the word of dump. Dump is really important to keep the market is being stable. No one are wanna lose his money just to pump pump and pump.

[deisik]

Mooncoin is a POW coins and is still being mined, developers i think is still active and this is more than 2 years coin.  If you are to hoard mooncoin when buying it since it has not much of use I do agree that it is a waste of time and money but if a person is in for a profit taking advantage of the fluctuation then it is actually a good choice if the person have little budget.  It was actively trading in cryptsy before I had my profit from trading it in LTC Market

You don't get it

I don't know how much Mooncoin was worth 2 years at launch or soon thereafter, but if the whole orderbook (the Bid side obviously) has less than 1 bitcoin in total, basically, you can't earn anything. I just checked the prices and 2.2M dogecoins roughly equals 0.5 BTC, and this is the size of all demand for this coin at that exchange presently. Now think how much you could earn even if the price of this coin doesn't go down. I guess using faucets would give you more profits and safely at that (and you wouldn't need a budget for that altogether)

The demand (buy wall) does not mean the volume though I failed to check that day volume.  I won't argue with your point of view since you want to see it that way and further derail the thread.  I think you really need to experience it to understand how things goes with such kind of trading.  Theory often times change when applied into practice since not all factors are constant

Indeed, it doesn't mean. It just says that there is no volume since the liquidity in the market effectively provides the upper edge for the volume range. In other words, if there is no liquidity there cannot possibly be volume (you can see that at the price chart to judge for yourself), but the reverse is not always true, i.e. there can be liquidity but there may still not be volume. Obviously, this doesn't help your point of view in the least. Other than that, I don't really see how you can confuse theory with practice since I'm talking exclusively from a trader's point of view. That is, as practical as it could ever get. And you may not want to tell me what is going to derail the thread

It is my thread, after all, and it is up to me to decide what derails the thread and what not

[gabmen]

IMO dumps are important only for some bitcoin user that have big capital so they can get bitcoin with cheap prices even though in fact dump and pump are same important for bitcoin users.

Pump and dump are important games on the cryptocurrency. No dump and no pump, no pump and no dump. Every thing will be having the opposite things such as the word of pump. it was having the opposite thing the word of dump. Dump is really important to keep the market is being stable. No one are wanna lose his money just to pump pump and pump.

Yup stability. You're right there. Having a continous pump in crypto prices would make any market or altcoin unstable as there won't be any balance. I think these dumps are very important especially for traders as this gives us opportunities to make more earnings.

[pinkflower]

Since it was your point, not mine, after all. It was your assumption that dumps might happen due to many new folks becoming new whales because of the prices skyrocketing. I agree with such a possibility (since this is what I'm essentially saying myself, i.e. that higher prices contribute to even higher volatility) but as I suspect, the burden of proof is still lying on you. And after you provide evidence for that assumption, we can discuss this issue further (if you feel inclined to, of course)

I dont think I said this and if I said something you might have misunderstood me or maybe you may even have made a mistake in thinking that was me. But please quote the post you are talking about then we can discuss it more. There must be a little misunderstanding. Its hard when youre not talking to someone face to face

I thought it was your post after all:

If that happens more then maybe BTC could be considered making and supporting an unhealthy market? If there are more and more whales born in the system that could move the price up and down, the more people should avoid this type of market

I guess this is what you said exactly ("more and more whales born in the system"). Again, I don't deny that it might be the case since, in fact, this is what I think myself. More specifically, that with the price surging the market is necessarily thinning and thus folks with the same amount of coins can move the price stronger, or (which is the same) the less amount of coins is needed to move the price by the same value. But my agreement with this point of view doesn't magically make me obliged to prove it. As I said, the burden of proof is still on you, i.e. if there are really more whales born in the system or not, since it was your assumption in the first place, not mine

But if it was not you posting from your account but someone else, then I feel sorry

Its a misunderstanding. I read that you said more whales are born as they are destroyed. I quoted your post and followed it up with a question and asking for proof or an explanation why you think so.

And dont you ever accuse me of letting other people use my account.