Fuck: SegWit, LN, Blockstream, Core, Adam Back, and GMazwell

[traincarswreck]

isnt this the guy that told lies about Bitmain etc.  what was the story?

This thread is full me pointing examples and give evidence showing that ya'll especially you, are only BU and r/btc and big blocker supporters because you don't know anything about economics and don't have any understanding of how bitcoin actually works.  Who do you think you are convincing with your bullshit?

This thread is FULL of me doing this.

Nobody here gives a fat fiddler's fuck about your goofy economic theories.  I was asking about Samson Mow. 

 

The one is the poster that allegedly read 100 books on the subject of economics and writes for mises but has no understand of macro-economics and thinks rubbish theory.

[jonald_fyookball]

If you weren't a huge troll, I would have a serious conversation with you.

Ladies and Gentlemen, this is the guy who claimed that increasing the transaction
capacity damages Bitcoin (not even Core is that retarded).

Another ad hominem. 

You did make that claim.  I can go quote it if you want.  So, its not ad hominem, its pointing out facts.

[Alex.BTC]

isnt this the guy that told lies about Bitmain etc.  what was the story?

Samson Mow‏: Exciting to hear @bcoinio w/ $300k Bitmain investment
Jihan Wu‏: Samson is a liar. Bitmain paid no money into Bcoin.io yet.

Samson's known on twitter as a troll and Blockstream shill.
Everywhere this guy goes you can expect trolling, lying and backstabbing.
Exactly the kind of guy Blockstream would like to hire.

Still, 'Chief Strategy Officer' is just hilarious, as if Blockstream needs even more strategy on lying and trolling.

Adam Back, Greg Maxwell, Luke Jr, Samson Mao.
This is like the Anti-Satoshi Foundation.
The Blockstream sewage system is now complete.

He used to work for BTCC, some say he was fired, some say he was politely asked to leave.
Blockstream probably hired him to help build their own mining operations.

Behind all the theatrics, the real battle is still in the hash rate.

[traincarswreck]

isnt this the guy that told lies about Bitmain etc.  what was the story?

He's known on twitter as a troll and Blockstream shill.
He actually used to troll Core as well, everywhere this guy goes you can expect trolling, lying and backstabbing.
Exactly the kind of guy Blockstream would like to hire

So when I point out that you and everyone in this thread doesn't know anything about economics and haven't read any books on the subject I'm a troll.  And the only response rather than putting up evidence that I am wrong (like claiming to read even ONE book on economics) you each take turns making ad homimen attacks?  

And now I am not only an anti bu and r/btc troll but I also troll core but I am a core troller AND blockstream shill?  And you have nothing whatsoever to back up any of your claims?

Alex.  You don't know anything about bitcoin, why are you spending the precious time you have left in this world on a internet form in a thread with a bunch of guys that don't know anything about bitcoin, perpetuating mythical beliefs and calling people that show you are wrong stupid shills?

Why do you have so much time to waste like this?

[The One]

Please, it is high time for you to stop being an idiot.  

Seems to be the only response is ad hominen attack.

You have people in here saying that core devs know nothing about economics.  But the people in thread claiming this perfectly demonstrate they have never read a single book on the subject (except the poster that says the have read 100 economics books and writes for mises.org but thinks macro-economics as a whole is rubbish) telling all the active developers of bitcoin that they don't know what they are doing and that raising the block size is no problem.  

You have people in this thread spreading ridiculous lies about LN and LT's saying things like you need to be on the internet in order to make a transaction.  And saying they are so expensive and inefficient one is better to use bitcoin or cash.

It's just a thread full of people that have no understand of the technology or economics.

Instead of calling me an idiot maybe you might have a dialogue about the content...but you can't can you, because you don't understand or know anything about the ACTUAL content.  

No one in this thread is a Satoshi fan, everyone is here to assert opinions and to refuse to do actual research and homework.  

Why are you all learning about LN from each other, compounding your own lies and ignorance, instead of the experts on the subject? There are many lecture videos and papers on the subject by experts of it.

The problem with so-called experts, they are often wrong. They have their own agenda that has not yet been revealed. I take the view of the experts with a pinch of salt rather than blind obedience. Anyone can read an expert's paper on a subject. Afterwards it is "par for the course" that those who have read the paper to debate among themselves hoping for new insights, discovery of what the agenda(s) are, etc.

You attacking everyone claiming we are all ignorance, when you are an economic illiterate is hilarious.

Macroeconomics economists failed to see/predict the 2008 recession, dot-com boom, early 1990s recession, early 1980s recession, stagflation of the 1970s.

Microeconomics economists (Austrian school of economics, libertarians, etc) saw all these economic disaster coming and their warnings were ignored by the vested-interest media and politicians.

Just give up attacking those who don't agree with your agenda and leave us all to continue our research.

[AngryDwarf]

If you put a hundred economists in a room and asked them to change a light bulb, the only thing that would happen is that they would not be able to agree how to change it.

I like it when I am able to learn from posters. I am being introduced to a lot of new theoretical concepts, and it does take a while for me to get my head around them even though I consider myself above average intelligence.

However, I like to engage in my own critical thinking rather than treat the words of others like I should not question the bible.

Those who are obviously of superior intelligence would not even be able to recognise their own ego if they looked in a mirror. Lacking patience and being short tempered with others who don't seem to quickly grasp their concepts is a recognisable sign of intelligence. However, it does display a lack of emotional quality. Many have made such a critical analysis of myself.

This is not a comment on one particular individual, it applies to many. All I am asking is that whilst I do like to learn from others, they should realise that it may take me longer to learn new concepts then it used to as my brain pathways have been forged through aging. I'm not going to take anyone elses word as absolute truth. I will still try to perform my own critical thinking, and I try to remain open to people who criticise or point out the absurdity of my assertions. I am as fallable as anyone else.

[The One]

If you put a hundred economists in a room and asked them to change a light bulb, the only thing that would happen is that they would not be able to agree how to change it.

I like it when I am able to learn from posters. I am being introduced to a lot of new theoretical concepts, and it does take a while for me to get my head around them even though I consider myself above average intelligence.

However, I like to engage in my own critical thinking rather than treat the words of others like I should not question the bible.

Those who are obviously of superior intelligence would not even be able to recognise their own ego if they looked in a mirror. Lacking patience and being short tempered with others who don't seem to quickly grasp their concepts is a recognisable sign of intelligence. However, it does display a lack of emotional quality. Many have made such a critical analysis of myself.

This is not a comment on one particular individual, it applies to many. All I am asking is that whilst I do like to learn from others, they should realise that it may take me longer to learn new concepts then it used to as my brain pathways have been forged through aging. I'm not going to take anyone elses word as absolute truth. I will still try to perform my own critical thinking, and I try to remain open to people who criticise or point out the absurdity of my assertions. I am as fallable as anyone else.

Very good.

[AngryDwarf]

Very good.

Now take the piss out of me when I'm posting drunk and giving it large.    

[traincarswreck]

The problem with so-called experts, they are often wrong. They have their own agenda that has not yet been revealed. I take the view of the experts with a pinch of salt rather than blind obedience.

See this is the thing.  You are calling hypothetical experts "so-called" experts, but experts really actually ARE experts. And saying things like "I take experts opinions with a grain of salt" is not understanding the term expert.  What is happening is the experts explanation is difficult for you to understand and its causing you to take their explanation with a grain of salt which really means you are assuming you are smarter than them and you are listening to your own subjective opinion because thats the easier route than taking time to understand what the experts are saying.

Anyone can read an expert's paper on a subject. Afterwards it is "par for the course" that those who have read the paper to debate among themselves hoping for new insights, discovery of what the agenda(s) are, etc.

No this isn't true all, many people cannot read an experts paper because it is too complex for them.  That's why you and others continually quote the one line you think you understand from the bitcoin.pdf which you think says "bitcoin is supposed to be scaled to be a coffee money because that is what cash is and banks are evil" but it doesn't say, its actually a technical paper.

New discoveries and truths do not come from silly discussion about conspiracy theories by a group of posters that are unwilling to understand the expert opinions on a technology.

You attacking everyone claiming we are all ignorance, when you are an economic illiterate is hilarious.

No, you see I actually read books on economics.  And I am probably the only person familiar with John Nash works ideal money which is 20 years of lectures on the subject of the macro-economic implications of the introduction of an international e-currency with an asymptotically stable inflation schedule.  You have claimed to have read 100 books and write on mises (refuse to prove it) and you think macro-economic science is rubbish.  And you are laughing at me for being "economic illiterate"?

Macroeconomics economists failed to see/predict the 2008 recession, dot-com boom, early 1990s recession, early 1980s recession, stagflation of the 1970s.

I think real economist understand that predicting the economy is like weather its not at all an exact science because we don't enough information to solve the complexity.

Microeconomics economists (Austrian school of economics, libertarians, etc) saw all these economic disaster coming and their warnings were ignored by the vested-interest media and politicians.

No.  You see Austrian school of economic theory is exactly what I am citing when I say predicting the economy is not possible.  Hayek, which I have also read, explains this and I will quote and cite if you try to argue. 

I think what you are REALLY saying is you have been calling for FUD for many many years, and you are reading other FUDster economists that have been doing the same.  Calling always for a complete collapse of the financial system (and bitcoin will emerge as the savior).

That's all just a symptom of not understand macro-economics, which you admit you don't, and it cause a chicken little sky is failing outlook which, yes, many many people will have because most people also don't understand economics.

Just give up attacking those who don't agree with your agenda and leave us all to continue our research.

My agenda is to come into threads where posters are making ridiculous claims and assertions about economics and bitcoin, and to challenge them to produce a single economic book they have read. You do not do research, this is not research, this a thread full of posters with no intention of doing research titled "fuck the experts".

[traincarswreck]

If you put a hundred economists in a room and asked them to change a light bulb, the only thing that would happen is that they would not be able to agree how to change it.

I like it when I am able to learn from posters. I am being introduced to a lot of new theoretical concepts, and it does take a while for me to get my head around them even though I consider myself above average intelligence.

However, I like to engage in my own critical thinking rather than treat the words of others like I should not question the bible.

Those who are obviously of superior intelligence would not even be able to recognise their own ego if they looked in a mirror. Lacking patience and being short tempered with others who don't seem to quickly grasp their concepts is a recognisable sign of intelligence. However, it does display a lack of emotional quality. Many have made such a critical analysis of myself.

This is not a comment on one particular individual, it applies to many. All I am asking is that whilst I do like to learn from others, they should realise that it may take me longer to learn new concepts then it used to as my brain pathways have been forged through aging. I'm not going to take anyone elses word as absolute truth. I will still try to perform my own critical thinking, and I try to remain open to people who criticise or point out the absurdity of my assertions. I am as fallable as anyone else.

It's a great attitude and you will obviously grow your knowledge.  But I'm still going to make fun of you for trying to learn about LN from a group of people who OBVIOUSLY don't' understand it. Seriously what are you doing in this thread, rather than learning from the discussions the experts are having and the papers they are writing?

Multiple posters in this thread showed CLEARLY that they do not understand LN's.  What more will you get from a group that doesn't understand what they are talking about?

[AngryDwarf]

It's a great attitude and you will obviously grow your knowledge.  But I'm still going to make fun of you for trying to learn about LN from a group of people who OBVIOUSLY don't' understand it. Seriously what are you doing in this thread, rather than learning from the discussions the experts are having and the papers they are writing?

Multiple posters in this thread showed CLEARLY that they do not understand LN's.  What more will you get from a group that doesn't understand what they are talking about?

My initial information on LN came from an old bitcoin news article. So it may have been poorly misunderstood from the article writer, or from my readership. It also might have been refined in design a lot since then.
At some point I might decide to take a greater interest in understanding it. I can't learn everything at once though. So yes, feel free to point out when I am being absurd. I did say I thought I probably needed to understand it better!

[traincarswreck]

My initial information on LN came from an old bitcoin news article. So it may have been poorly misunderstood from the article writer, or from my readership. It also might have been refined in design a lot since then.
At some point I might decide to take a greater interest in understanding it. I can't learn everything at once though. So yes, feel free to point out when I am being absurd. I did say I thought I probably needed to understand it better!

You KNOW these posters are monkeys.

Lightning is very easy to understand, and I sympathize with the fact that the experts haven't explained it well to us (I include me in us) laymen.  

The SETUP for a LN/LT is tricky and technical, I had to watch the Poon/Thad video many times to understand at all what I was watching, but then I realized something.  Once its setup, once the technicals are in place, from a laymen user perspective that wants to understand, it is simply promissory notes that you can't reneg on.

So you COULD literally send them by mail or text or email or messenger etc.

They say "I promise to pay x from account y"  and its cryptographically guaranteed. Then you can send another message/transaction saying "I promise to pay x.5 from account y".  

From a users perspective, you see nothing and do nothing, like a tap credit card or a mobile payment processor.

And I repeat I am not an expert but I am leagues beyond Quickseller that made a ridiculous claim both parties need to be online to make such a transaction.

[AngryDwarf]

Lightning is very easy to understand, and I sympathize with the fact that the experts haven't explained it well to us (I include me in us) laymen.  

The SETUP for a LN/LT is tricky and technical, I had to watch the Poon/Thad video many times to understand at all what I was watching, but then I realized something.  Once its setup, once the technicals are in place, from a laymen user perspective that wants to understand, it is simply promissory notes that you can't reneg on.

So you COULD literally send them by mail or text or email or messenger etc.

They say "I promise to pay x from account y"  and its cryptographically guaranteed. Then you can send another message/transaction saying "I promise to pay x.5 from account y".  

From a users perspective, you see nothing and do nothing, like a tap credit card or a mobile payment processor.

And I repeat I am not an expert but I am leagues beyond Quickseller that made a ridiculous claim both parties need to be online to make such a transaction.

In your opinion is it a good design? Could it lead to a fractional reserve type of banking system based on blockchain backed BTC? Could a user receive and then transact in these promissory notes without having opening a blockchain based channel? (i.e., they can just open a lightning network account instead?)

[DooMAD]

Lightning is very easy to understand, and I sympathize with the fact that the experts haven't explained it well to us (I include me in us) laymen.  

The SETUP for a LN/LT is tricky and technical, I had to watch the Poon/Thad video many times to understand at all what I was watching, but then I realized something.  Once its setup, once the technicals are in place, from a laymen user perspective that wants to understand, it is simply promissory notes that you can't reneg on.

So you COULD literally send them by mail or text or email or messenger etc.

They say "I promise to pay x from account y"  and its cryptographically guaranteed. Then you can send another message/transaction saying "I promise to pay x.5 from account y".  

From a users perspective, you see nothing and do nothing, like a tap credit card or a mobile payment processor.

And I repeat I am not an expert but I am leagues beyond Quickseller that made a ridiculous claim both parties need to be online to make such a transaction.

In your opinion is it a good design? Could it lead to a fractional reserve type of banking system based on blockchain backed BTC? Could a user receive and then transact in these promissory notes without having opening a blockchain based channel? (i.e., they can just open a lightning network account instead?)

The only person I've seen pushing the "fractional reserve" myth is kiklo, but I can understand how it might have easily spread.  Since the total sum of BTC being transacted is still locked in place on the main Bitcoin blockchain, no more and no less can be transacted on LN.  Whichever amounts are being transacted on Lightning, they are always "backed" by an equal amount of bitcoin.  No coins can be created out of thin air.

[traincarswreck]

In your opinion is it a good design?

Don't use this question.

Could it lead to a fractional reserve type of banking system based on blockchain backed BTC?

Factional reserve system is good and great and there is really no other system, because it makes sense for banks to loan money that they don't particularly have provided they choose decent customers for those loans.

It only gets bad if their is a monopoly on the money supply and if government will bail out bad banks, because then their is no reason for the banks to only make good loans.

LN with bitcoin is like a defacto fractional reserve system, you can't really loan more money than you have so it always has a perfect standard. But what it will do is put pressure on the existing fractional reserve system to make better and good loans.

Bitcoin is the missing link to fractional reserve banking.  So you can understand why ignorant people like One thinks macro-economics (ie fractional reserve banking) is evil, because they don't understand that Smith Hayek Nash all predicated their arguments on an open market in which its not just the government that prints money and bails out banks.

Could a user receive and then transact in these promissory notes without having opening a blockchain based channel? (i.e., they can just open a lightning network account instead?)

No "lightning network account" is not a real thing.  In essence you are basically commiting an amount of bitcoin in one transaction without sending (but locking them from being spent otherwise until you settle all the future transactions).

You have to do that its part of the process.  And then you can incrementally decide to send promissory notes to the receiver.

So you make an initial bitcoin transaction that allows you to commit to micro-payments via any communication method. That's it.

[traincarswreck]

The only person I've seen pushing the "fractional reserve" myth is kiklo, but I can understand how it might have easily spread.  Since the total sum of BTC being transacted is still locked in place on the main Bitcoin blockchain, no more and no less can be transacted on LN.  Whichever amounts are being transacted on Lightning, they are always "backed" by an equal amount of bitcoin.  No coins can be created out of thin air.

Cheers!

[AngryDwarf]

LN with bitcoin is like a defacto fractional reserve system, you can't really loan more money than you have so it always has a perfect standard. But what it will do is put pressure on the existing fractional reserve system to make better and good loans.

So in this case, is it more like full reserve banking than factional reserve banking?

[traincarswreck]

So in this case, is it more like full reserve banking than factional reserve banking?

Ya there is no bank.

[jonald_fyookball]

The only person I've seen pushing the "fractional reserve" myth is kiklo, but I can understand how it might have easily spread.  Since the total sum of BTC being transacted is still locked in place on the main Bitcoin blockchain, no more and no less can be transacted on LN.  Whichever amounts are being transacted on Lightning, they are always "backed" by an equal amount of bitcoin.  No coins can be created out of thin air.

It all depends on how far we deviate from the original P2P cash system.

The more complicated and layered it gets, the more potential for all kinds of schemes and shennanigans.

As it is now, even with LN, the fact that people could settle their transactions anytime makes it hard
to get around the fact that Bitcoin is a digital asset, not a debt instrument.

Still, even now, lets say there was a big company "petty cash quick payments" where you kept
a channel open for a long time and used it like a credit/debit card.... the longer you go without
closing the channel, the more room there is for abuse and owing more money than you have.

[traincarswreck]

 
It all depends on how far we deviate from the original P2P cash system.

That was the only line in the bitcoin.pdf you read and you didn't understand it.  And LN couldn't be closer than a p2p cash system, and its exactly what finney and szabo imagined bitcoin to emerge to be.  It makes perfect sense, its inline with nash, szabo, and hayek and Austrian economics.

The more complicated and layered it gets, the more potential for all kinds of schemes and shennanigans.

It's not at all a rational argument to come on a forum and say "ya but we should be fearful uncertain and doubtful about the future because it might get complex".

Theres no more room for shenanigans nor is your use of the word shenanigans referring to anything real or any real worry.

As it is now, even with LN, the fact that people could settle their transactions anytime makes it hard
to get around the fact that Bitcoin is a digital asset, not a debt instrument.

wtf does this even mean?

Still, even now, lets say there was a big company "petty cash quick payments" where you kept
a channel open for a long time and used it like a credit/debit card.... the longer you go without
closing the channel, the more room there is for abuse and owing more money than you have

No there is no more room for a abuse at all, you have stated this lie as fact.  It's a way of spending your bitcoins that you have, but in micro-increments.  There is nothing more complex to fear about it nor have you shown or put forth anything to fear.

You are just saying "we should it because of an uncertain future no one knows about or is predicting"