Well, well, well, now we know what Jihan Wu’s been up to.

[Killerpotleaf]

Why do the details of how this is accomplished matter (other than in hindering protocol updates) if it does not create vulnerabilities in the PoW process?

I see it now that its bolded.
and i would answer that...

the details DON'T matter, other than in hindering protocol updates  
and there's one more thing...
this solution is patented and makes competing with them impossible.

miners were told this was a bad idea a year ago.
now what, we stop progress because progress means they lose a 20ish% advantage

we stop progress so that they can continue to corner the market with their fucking patent?

[iamnotback]

this solution is patented and makes competing with them impossible.

Not if you use the covert (unprovable) way.

Aren't you breaking the law any way by holding BTC that was used in money laundering.

Come now, as if Bitcoin is a legally compliant endeavor.

As I said, I don't think you guys like PoW. You guys would prefer government laws.

[darlidada]

@iamnotback: if btc acts as a settlement network and most of us aren't allowed to transact on it anymore because fees are too high, doesn't it also mean btc price will also be super high? how high do you figure?

very interesting discussion btw, i love how this was played by every party, its like a giant game of chess being played in front of us

ps: i hope one day you'll be able to brag that you told everyone to buy ltc @ 6.5$ like you did for btc @ 10$ in january 2013!

[iamnotback]

And intellectual property expended is one of the capital costs "wasted" (expended) on security.

Bitmain has huge sunk costs invested in ASICs. They have in their interests to protect Bitcoin.

Bitmain is protecting Bitcoin from those who want to change it from "protocol is law" to "governance is law".

Blockstream thinks they own the protocol. So they had to be spanked and sent to an altcoin.

Bitmain depends on being on the same side as the whales. If Bitmain tried to HF with BU, they would commit suicide, because whales would be forced to fight them.

That is your opinion.  Mine is that they are protecting their investment in mining capital, which without their improvement could not have been economically beneficial (as witnessed by ex-KNC statement)

Once you add up of the facts, you'll realize I am correct (@dinofelis preceded me with this opinion and now I have identified the technical specifics of the factual support):

Bitmain depends on being on the same side as the whales. If Bitmain tried to HF with BU, they would commit suicide, because whales would be forced to fight them.

BU was merely a diversionary tactic to get more of Bitmain's miners spread out into the wild, so that they can destroy Blockstream.

I just realized that Bitmain probably was only blocking SegWit on Litecoin because they wanted to keep the conflict between BU and Blockstream sustained for as long as possible and block any release valves, so that they could maximize the number of their asicboost miners they could ship for Bitcoin.

Once they've defeated Blockstream, I think they will stop blocking SegWit on Litecoin.

There is no benefit to Bitmain to prevent growth of usage of the blockchain/altcoin ecosystem which Bitcoin is the reserve currency of.

[Killerpotleaf]

this solution is patented and makes competing with them impossible.

Not if you use the covert (unprovable) way.

well then they have no advantage and we have no problem....

all miners must start boosting

once we have all miners boosting, losing the ability to boost is meaningless

[iamnotback]

ps: i hope one day you'll be able to brag that you told everyone to buy ltc @ 6.5$ like you did for btc @ 10$ in january 2013!

I want to be able to brag about making an altcoin that has helped everyone. If I don't achieve that, I will consider myself a failure.

But thank you. And speaking of that, I need to leave this thread soon.

I have tried to help. I hope I haven't alienated everyone to be against me. I am just trying to be realistic. I do hope we can build things that improve our human plight. I have some ideas to work on.

[franky1]

An ASIC moving from 56nm to 28nm is an efficiency gain, because it does more work (more operations) for less electricity.

ASICBoost doesn't do more operations for less electricity. ASICBoost lets the ASIC skip doing some of the work. It does not contribute any additional security to the network. If everyone used it, it wouldn't make a difference, it would still require the same number of operations to attack the network prior to it existing.

This is why ASICBoost is a shortcut, not an efficiency gain, it does not contribute any additional security.

if it makes bitmain solve blocks a little faster. then difficulty rises to compensate..
think about it!

[franky1]

@iamnotback: if btc acts as a settlement network and most of us aren't allowed to transact on it anymore because fees are too high, doesn't it also mean btc price will also be super high? how high do you figure?

if it starts costing $6 per transaction onchain
then even with LN to open/close a channel is a $12 expense.

so think of it this way, (think of a real world service. and run some scenarios like im about to)

some banks charge $6 per wire transfer
would you use paypal if they dropped the 20cent down to 1cent a tx internally but wanted to charge you $12 externally to use their service for 2 weeks.

[anonymoustroll420]

An ASIC moving from 56nm to 28nm is an efficiency gain, because it does more work (more operations) for less electricity.

ASICBoost doesn't do more operations for less electricity. ASICBoost lets the ASIC skip doing some of the work. It does not contribute any additional security to the network. If everyone used it, it wouldn't make a difference, it would still require the same number of operations to attack the network prior to it existing.

This is why ASICBoost is a shortcut, not an efficiency gain, it does not contribute any additional security.

if it makes bitmain solve blocks a little faster. then difficulty rises to compensate..
think about it!

Right, but the higher difficulty has the same security as the pre-ASICBoost difficulty...... This is not a problem BTW as it's not less security. It's why this is a shortcut, not efficiency gain.

If only one firm has ASICBoost, that gives them a monopoly, which is a real problem. But the devs are not willing to prevent that from happening right now as preventing that would brick all ASICBoosted chips.

The big issue, the main issue, is that covert ASICboost breaks many kinds of network upgrades, NOT JUST SEGWIT AND NOT JUST SOFTFORKS AS MANY PEOPLE ARE SPEWING, but it does break segwit. This gives miners an incentive to oppose these changes. So covert ASICboost needs to be made impossible. antminers support overt ASICBoost, so they can still boost away if they want.

[franky1]

Right, but the higher difficulty has the same security as the pre-ASICBoost difficulty...... This is not a problem BTW as it's not less security. It's why this is a shortcut, not efficiency gain.

If only one firm has ASICBoost, that gives them a monopoly, which is a real problem. But the devs are not willing to prevent that from happening right now.

The big issue, the main issue, is that covert ASICboost breaks many kinds of network upgrades, NOT JUST SEGWIT AND NOT JUST SOFTFORKS, but it does break segwit. This gives miners an incentive to oppose these changes. So covert ASICboost needs to be made impossible. antminers support overt ASICBoost, so they can still boost away if they want.

by the way.
bitmain donot make rigs for $2000. it costs then ~$400
for evry rig they sell to competitors they get to key 3 rigs for themselves and have spare cash to pay for electric.

this is the same for bitfury and other asic manufacturers...
that is the true way they make their profit.

secondly. by selling to competitors then its not an unfair advantage of having asic boost, because the competitors have it tooo..
think about it!

i will laugh if gmaxwell pulls the PoW nuke and suddenly BTCC and slush(blockstream defenders) go down too

[anonymoustroll420]

secondly. by selling to competitors then its not an unfair advantage of having asic boost, because the competitors have it tooo..
think about it!

The miners they sell don't have ASICBoost enabled. It may be possible to enable it, we're not sure and no software or method to do that exists yet. They could be a second product line that don't have ASICboost at all. Right now it looks like they are the only ones mining covert ASICBoosted blocks. These can still be detected on the blockchain.

[jonald_fyookball]

An ASIC moving from 56nm to 28nm is an efficiency gain, because it does more work (more operations) for less electricity.

ASICBoost doesn't do more operations for less electricity. ASICBoost lets the ASIC skip doing some of the work. It does not contribute any additional security to the network. If everyone used it, it wouldn't make a difference, it would still require the same number of operations to attack the network prior to it existing.

This is why ASICBoost is a shortcut, not an efficiency gain, it does not contribute any additional security.

if it makes bitmain solve blocks a little faster. then difficulty rises to compensate..
think about it!

Right, but the higher difficulty has the same security as the pre-ASICBoost difficulty...... This is not a problem BTW as it's not less security. It's why this is a shortcut, not efficiency gain.

If only one firm has ASICBoost, that gives them a monopoly, which is a real problem. But the devs are not willing to prevent that from happening right now as preventing that would brick all ASICBoosted chips.

The big issue, the main issue, is that covert ASICboost breaks many kinds of network upgrades, NOT JUST SEGWIT AND NOT JUST SOFTFORKS AS MANY PEOPLE ARE SPEWING, but it does break segwit. This gives miners an incentive to oppose these changes. So covert ASICboost needs to be made impossible. antminers support overt ASICBoost, so they can still boost away if they want.

I agree with you as far as ASIC secrets should not be patentable. 

Core is still liars/obstructionists though.

[iamnotback]

These can still be detected on the blockchain.

Not provably (with current protocol).

BIP that forced overt, would force everyone to pay patents fees to Blockstream's Sergio Lerner.  

Was wondering why it takes you guys so long to connect the dots of the corruption that is Blockstream.

[anonymoustroll420]

Not provably (with current protocol).

BIP that forced overt, would force everyone to pay patents fees to Blockstream's Sergio Lamier.

no it wouldn't. Bitmain owns the patent in China. It would force people in China to pay it to Bitmain, but most likely people will just infringe on their patent (if they can convince a foundry to do that) as IP law in china is real messed up.

Even if it did force them to pay Sergio, they have already been caught...

[iamnotback]

Not provably (with current protocol).

BIP that forced overt, would force everyone to pay patents fees to Blockstream's Sergio Lerner.

no it wouldn't. Bitmain owns the patent in China. It would force people in China to pay it to Bitmain, but most likely people will just infringe on their patent (if they can convince a foundry to do that) as IP law in china is real messed up.

No it would force everyone who owns Bitmain miner to pay patent fees to Sergio Lerner in order to run the overt asicboost built into their miner.

[Killerpotleaf]

Sergio Lerner patented this in US and Bitmain patented this in Chain?

[anonymoustroll420]

Sergio Lerner patented this in US and Bitmain patented this in Chain?

Yes. Here is bitmains patent
http://211.157.104.77:8080/sipo_EN/search/detail.do?method=view&parm=16b414c21a2f19d11b2c18401bcd1a5f183a19561ad91be11a501c4805792c231f5421b222572195236c20482755275723ca24be2221222525702494250d26c0274025822c3f29092a7c29a02d6d2d6f28fa2ed62bd12c892f482c34330947932f5c2c0a2ac731b9333c316c366534e7318235ee337934f1360837f03747371b371a34e231bf38f13b04390c3e0d3f6f39ea3dc63c573d6d3e683e4c26d918c33ffe3c523c273e354334405c47c545774302408e4423458d47b04688462b46a846c246aa436f47554bcc49784a2d

Other companies patented it in other countries that have foundries too (allegedly).

[iamnotback]

Sergio Lerner patented this in US and Bitmain patented this in Chain?

Yes. Other companies patented it in other countries that have foundries too (allegedly).

How many Bitmain miners have been sold to miners in countries that enforce USA patents (and patents in those other countries)?

They surely want to enable the asciiboost built into their miners. Upthread I even quoted one miner rejoicing over the prospect.

Bitmain has checkmated Blockstream.

Also the thing with the covert ASIC design, I am fairly certain foundries can't detect whether the ASIC allows it or not. I think it is possible to put all the key logic in a separate CPU controller. So if I am correct on that assumption, then the foundries can't block it and they can't be sued for patent infringement either.

Bitmain being in China, can't be sued. It is a very clever separation-of-concerns ploy they did. I am impressed.

Btw, I think maybe I remember reading something in the Trilemma.com logs about this miner ploy plan last year. It was written in a cryptic way. It didn't register for me at that time. But now I vaguely remember it. But I might be just manufacturing it as a false memory. I was in such delirium with the disseminated Tuberculosis that my memories from the past couple of years are all jumbled. I think MP (or one of his underlings had made him aware of it) had noticed this possible technical way to defeat mutability and he had selected Bitmain to carry it out.

[Fundamentals Of]

I wonder what will those exchanges that already sell BTU tokens in advance. Now that BTU seemed unlikely to happen.

[Kprawn]

An ASIC moving from 56nm to 28nm is an efficiency gain, because it does more work (more operations) for less electricity.

ASICBoost doesn't do more operations for less electricity. ASICBoost lets the ASIC skip doing some of the work. It does not contribute any additional security to the network. If everyone used it, it wouldn't make a difference, it would still require the same number of operations to attack the network prior to it existing.

This is why ASICBoost is a shortcut, not an efficiency gain, it does not contribute any additional security.

if it makes bitmain solve blocks a little faster. then difficulty rises to compensate..
think about it!

Right, but the higher difficulty has the same security as the pre-ASICBoost difficulty...... This is not a problem BTW as it's not less security. It's why this is a shortcut, not efficiency gain.

If only one firm has ASICBoost, that gives them a monopoly, which is a real problem. But the devs are not willing to prevent that from happening right now as preventing that would brick all ASICBoosted chips.

The big issue, the main issue, is that covert ASICboost breaks many kinds of network upgrades, NOT JUST SEGWIT AND NOT JUST SOFTFORKS AS MANY PEOPLE ARE SPEWING, but it does break segwit. This gives miners an incentive to oppose these changes. So covert ASICboost needs to be made impossible. antminers support overt ASICBoost, so they can still boost away if they want.

I agree with you as far as ASIC secrets should not be patentable. 

Core is still liars/obstructionists though.

They must be paying you well from the +/- $100 million USD per year they received from this exploit to still shill for them. No matter what

excuses you might think of for this.... people will still remember them for the "cheater" a$$holes they are. Why would anyone in their right

mind stand behind these cheaters?..... Paid shilling