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[CriminologyProf]

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[LivingDeath]

I guess yes. Somebody will take this thought and open a community for this. Maybe this coins will get a second worth. 

[cryptohunter]

YES 100% i have posted a few threads about this before.

This is just my opinion so could be way off....but...

Dogecoin is a very bad example, however I am certain if you had the wallet and the first block ever mined on that chain in that wallet still you would be unwise to spend it.

I think these old alts will become very very sought after as time goes on especially those mined to the wallets they are still contained in. (uncirculated even though these don't get scratched obviously like coins i think the fact they are retained in the wallets that mined them straight from the chain that will make them worth even more)

I think coins that will still be possible to mine in the future will not be worth so much like doge. Those with supplies already fully mined should go up far more.

Some alts that were released as pow were only mined for a few hours then died. Although there is nothing to stop them being revived I guess.

I would love to see a historical site for alts set up because their inception date is on this board still but if this board ever went down the records would be lost.

I know graham listed a great historical list once on here but even that was far from complete. A spider could be developed to easily spider this board and list in chronological order the exact release date of every single alt ever created and if possible preserve a copy of each original wallet.

This is the start of the new version of money so in future I would expect some of these alts to become worth a fortune if you mined early blocks and never spent them. (uncirculated as we may call them)

[BTCLovingDude]

there is a big problem with this:
1) if a cryptocurrency dies that means there is no longer anyone mining it, there is no blockchain and there are no nodes. you having any dogecoin can not be proven since there is no blockchain and it is just a number on your computer unless you collect the code. the source code or the blockchain which requires a huge storage space for each coin.

2) Fungibility. i am not an expert in this but coins are not different from each other and unless you can get your hands on block rewards as in the coinbase transaction created in first block or blocks lower than a certain number i don't see any "collector's value" to it.

with all that said, this is just my opinion and i am not a collector

[gjhiggins]

I think these old alts will become very very sought after as time goes on/

The direction of that vector looks vaguely plausible (from a psychologist's standpoint) but I would argue that its magnitude is over-stated. I just can't see “very very sought after” at all.

Part of the problem is that key distinguishing characteristics of an instance of expensive-to-serialize classes (e.g. an instance of a Ming porcelain dish) do not transfer to cheap-to-serialise classes such as old files of data conforming to the Bitcoin 0.6.7 byte protocol.

especially those mined to the wallets they are still contained in

Not possible to ascertain canonically because of [export|import]privkey.

Some alts that were released as pow were only mined for a few hours then died. Although there is nothing to stop them being revived I guess.

Am I there and staking out the ground already? (Take a guess).

I would love to see a historical site for alts set up because their inception date is on this board still but if this board ever went down the records would be lost.

Tried that, turned out to be not worth the effort.

I know graham listed a great historical list once on here but even that was far from complete.

Dunno about “far from” (I put in a *lot* of effort on that score) but the notion of “complete” here is extremely difficult (perhaps even impossible) to define operationally.

A spider could be developed to easily spider this board and list in chronological order the exact release date of every single alt ever created and if possible preserve a copy of each original wallet.

Tried that, the results are not pretty.

Cheers

Graham

[cryptohunter]

I think these old alts will become very very sought after as time goes on/

The direction of that vector looks vaguely plausible (from a psychologist's standpoint) but I would argue that its magnitude is over-stated. I just can't see “very very sought after” at all.

Part of the problem is that key distinguishing characteristics of an instance of expensive-to-serialize classes (e.g. an instance of a Ming porcelain dish) do not transfer to cheap-to-serialise classes such as old files of data conforming to the Bitcoin 0.6.7 byte protocol.

especially those mined to the wallets they are still contained in

Not possible to ascertain canonically because of [export|import]privkey.

Some alts that were released as pow were only mined for a few hours then died. Although there is nothing to stop them being revived I guess.

Am I there and staking out the ground already? (Take a guess).

I would love to see a historical site for alts set up because their inception date is on this board still but if this board ever went down the records would be lost.

Tried that, turned out to be not worth the effort.

I know graham listed a great historical list once on here but even that was far from complete.

Dunno about “far from” (I put in a *lot* of effort on that score) but the notion of “complete” here is extremely difficult (perhaps even impossible) to define operationally.

A spider could be developed to easily spider this board and list in chronological order the exact release date of every single alt ever created and if possible preserve a copy of each original wallet.

Tried that, the results are not pretty.

Cheers

Graham

Hi, yes, sorry, your list was the best I have seen yet and i wasn't saying your list wasn't a great effort. However, I just meant there are quite a few coins I have wallet.dats for that when i checked were not on that list so i was assuming there were quite a few more that had slipped past you somehow. They however must be recorded on this forum somewhere and would have only been deleted if they did something very wrong. I know some launches that then turned into give away threads were deleted at a later date.

Some literally lasted only hours before they died off...

I miss the old POW days they were great fun.

[gjhiggins]

there are quite a few coins I have wallet.dats for that when i checked were not on that list so i was assuming there were quite a few more that had slipped past you somehow. They however must be recorded on this forum somewhere and would have only been deleted if they did something very wrong. I know some launches that then turned into give away threads were deleted at a later date.

Some literally lasted only hours before they died off...

I used to get emailed with every new ANN in the Altcoin Announcements section and I noticed that as my alacrity eventually faded, I did start miss a few ANNs that had been deleted by the time I got round to trying to view them the following day [1]. It also became clear that the most aggressively fraudulent operators were beginning to shift their announcements to other social media, presumably in an effort to escape the close scrutiny that bitcointalk ANNs often get. That's why I suspect that “complete” can only really be discussed in reference to a generally-endorsed operational definition.

I stopped collating altcoin metadata in mid-March 2016, if your alts were launched later than that, then they won't be in the list.

Cheers

Graham

[1] Some ANNs were (are) of easily-detected attempts to defraud --- and some ANNs proved to be of more difficult-to-detect attempts to defraud and, in the same context, the interpretation of some ANNs is still being hotly debated.

[cryptohunter]

there are quite a few coins I have wallet.dats for that when i checked were not on that list so i was assuming there were quite a few more that had slipped past you somehow. They however must be recorded on this forum somewhere and would have only been deleted if they did something very wrong. I know some launches that then turned into give away threads were deleted at a later date.

Some literally lasted only hours before they died off...

I used to get emailed with every new ANN in the Altcoin Announcements section and I noticed that as my alacrity eventually faded, I did start miss a few ANNs that had been deleted by the time I got round to trying to view them the following day [1]. It also became clear that the most aggressively fraudulent operators were beginning to shift their announcements to other social media, presumably in an effort to escape the close scrutiny that bitcointalk ANNs often get. That's why I suspect that “complete” can only really be discussed in reference to a generally-endorsed operational definition.

I stopped collating altcoin metadata in mid-March 2016, if your alts were launched later than that, then they won't be in the list.

Cheers

Graham

[1] Some ANNs were (are) of easily-detected attempts to defraud --- and some ANNs proved to be of more difficult-to-detect attempts to defraud and, in the same context, the interpretation of some ANNs is still being hotly debated.

That would explain it and it would be very difficult to do this alone on human power only. Shame the spider didn't work out.

[Chicago]

Hello,

    I agree with the sentiment of untouched rewards from a coinbase transaction will be more valuable.
    First, when I had thought about this several years ago - it lead to me inscribing clever markings with P2SH.
    I figured it would let me assert "These coins are special, have not been spent and even have a cool imprint from the mint."

    When Graham mentioned the export/import privkey as it pertains to the original wallet.dat, well I guess the thing about that is -- in the future you would then need to "sell" the private key with however many unspent coinbase rewards you left in the address.

    So probably, if you're solo mining -- it might make sense to rotate your wallet's address more often so that you could produce common denominations of private keys in the future such that after minting 1/10/100/1000/10000 of XYZcoin, you could start with a new address while leaving the other one in cold storage.

    BUT... who's to say cold storage of private keys for years and years won't lead to problems of theft down the road for later discoveries of things like deterministic K values or other things.

    Either way, I'm like-minded in regards to blockchain preservation and believe there should be a common resource to obtain the source code, "officially published wallets" and a most current as possible linear bootstrap.dat for the masses.

    It would be even more cool, if something like Datacoin were used to periodically store the addresses of full nodes for these old chains which have a small swarm, so that there is potential to minimize accidental forks over the long term.

Best Regards,
-Chicago

[gjhiggins]

untouched rewards from a coinbase transaction

Isn't a paper wallet the only practicable realisation of this? That'd probably have worked. Anyone got a time machine?

Cheers

Graham

[gjhiggins]

could there be a day in the future when people will pay premiums for "rare and antique" coins?

Oh, how I wish.

Upcoming, “Hash in the ASIC” - a must-see TV show for all cryptocurrency fans. In this episode, blockchain bashers shitforbrains and manbaps get to work on reviving EuropaCoin, an 0.8.6 scrypt PoW originally released early 2014 and whose plans for moon-sized success in Europe were frustrated by what proved to be a fatal coding error by the developer. Can our intrepid cryptocoiners resurrect this Doge-era classic and successfully dump their bag?

Cheers

Graham

[Chicago]

Isn't a paper wallet the only practicable realisation of this? That'd probably have worked. Anyone got a time machine?

Hello Graham,

    Unless I'm missing something, it would seem the private key of an account in a wallet.dat which received a coinbase emission may be exported and then printed onto a paper wallet at anytime.
    I'm not saying this would be the best idea or anything like that since the wallet.dat would have been the hot-wallet at some point - and so could never functionally become true cold storage; but for the purposes of suggesting to someone, "here are some unspent coinbase rewards" - the new owner would only need to import the key and rescan in order to verify the balance.

    In the future, buying antique coins will doubtfully ever be done by selling someone the private key.

    Here's why.

    Let's suppose John has a booth at a flea market and is selling unspent coinbase rewards from 2009 Bitcoin.
    Let's suppose Alice agrees to buy them at a significant premium over the market price.

    Alice would have to trust John to not conduct a transaction with the private key he already knows, which he sold to her.
    Alice would have to trust John's claim there are no others who know the private key - which may only be possible if John minted the coin directly.

    So very likely, these antique coins would be bought at the same time they are swept to the new owner's public address -- implying they would not be virgin coins anymore.

    I suspect the true value of the antique coins would be in how few bytes are required to perform a transaction using them in whole parts.
    This may be desirable in the future so long as there remains a large Bitcoin transaction backlog and "a little bit of room" for one more tiny transaction.

Best Regards,
-Chicago

[emezh10]

Right now we have so many antique coin collector collecting coin that all the pass people make or dynasty that is been erase if you have there coin you just hit the jackpot in the antique pawnshop it will take long years before the coins have a great value in kind aspect.

[Sumo]

I was thinking an antminer might be collectable one day

[gjhiggins]

Unless I'm missing something, it would seem the private key of an account in a wallet.dat which received a coinbase emission may be exported and then printed onto a paper wallet at anytime.

By serialising to paper, you migrate information from a low-entropy context into a high-entropy context and can use the entropic decay of the medium as a proxy “timestamp” accruing from the information being serialised on the universe's blockchain, so to speak.

Chemical analysis would identify a forged paper wallet in the same way that chemical analysis is used to identify a forged oil painting, by comparing the recorded level of localised entropic decay of the serialisation with the calculated level of universal entropic decay to be expected from such a serialisation.

2FA, something you have and something you know. You have the printed wallet, you know how old it should be.

There was some support for the notion in the past: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=408951.0

Cheers

Graham

[Chicago]

Chemical analysis would identify a forged paper wallet in the same way that chemical analysis is used to identify a forged oil painting, by comparing the recorded level of localised entropic decay of the serialisation with the calculated level of universal entropic decay to be expected from such a serialisation.

Hi Graham,

    Are you implying the value of the paper wallet would become its authentic age and not necessarily the commodity accessible by the key pair imprinted onto it?
    I suppose a collector would find it nifty in 2075 to obtain a paper wallet with a "certificate of authenticity" verifying its age; but there is still a dilemma as to whether the paper wallet's true value may be assessed without compromising its private key.

    Essentially, all paper wallets with a plain to see private key inevitably become "receipts" once the coins have been swept.
    In that way, I don't see how a paper wallet which can be used to find the transaction when its coins had been spent would be valuable to anyone.

    In the distant future, it might be nifty if someone designs an alternate blockchain where you can stake only uncirculated bitcoins, thus creating a derivative market for a subjectively rare crypto-commodity.  Such an alternate chain could theoretically become a functional proof-of-burn hybrid where the actual burn isn't desired yet there would be a rational incentive to not circulate the original instrument.

Best Regards,
-Chicago

[gjhiggins]

Essentially, all paper wallets with a plain to see private key inevitably become "receipts" once the coins have been swept.

The private key is obscured, the address is visible and can be checked. The private key can also be encrypted (BIP38).

To gain the maximum from such an investment, some attestation of the provenance of the item would be desirable.

Not all that different from holding a Victorian penny black stamp. The extrinsic value as a rare Victorian printed item far exceeds the intrinsic face value as a postage stamp. A Dogecoin paper wallet provably containing the full amount of unspent coins and provenanced as originally owned by Jackson Palmer might be worth a few bob to collectors in the far future  - say, a couple of years at current rate of change

I'm from the past (it truly is another country) and my antiquated perspective is: if they'll collect Pokemon, they'll collect anything.

Cheers,

Graham

[Munti]

@Graham have you published your work somewhere? If so, can you post a link?
Thx

[gjhiggins]

@Graham have you published your work somewhere? If so, can you post a link?

A glutton for punishment, eh?

Hmm, although not strictly pertinent to the invitation, the earliest posting record I can find is on usenet, made from HPLabs on sci.psych nearly 30 years ago but I've been active a fair bit since then, so it sort of depends on your interests, really.

Assuming a cryptocurrency focus, there's DOACC, a (n abandoned in March 2016) collection of altcoin metadata and an accompanying OWL ontology (docs), plus Minkiz, an attempt at finding entertaining (and perhaps even useful) ways of serialising the metadata.

Taking a guess, of particular interest might be: a convenient ordering by name, a list of coinmarketcap's top-250-ish pos coins and metadata, ditto for pow, coins listed by algo and, by way of what sadly passes for entertainment in this domain, the hodlerscope and, as a courtesy to visitors, an opportunity to express faux-outrage at the brazen exploitation of the foundry.

“Minkiz” is a piece of online art, if you can get behind that notion.

Other than that, the long-suffering subscribers to the current main Slimcoin discussion thread are kind enough to tolerate my occasional wafflings. There there's my work on V but you'll need a strong head for that.

Cheers

Graham

[Munti]

@Graham have you published your work somewhere? If so, can you post a link?

A glutton for punishment, eh?

Hmm, although not strictly pertinent to the invitation, the earliest posting record I can find is on usenet, made from HPLabs on sci.psych nearly 30 years ago but I've been active a fair bit since then, so it sort of depends on your interests, really.

Assuming a cryptocurrency focus, there's DOACC, a (n abandoned in March 2016) collection of altcoin metadata and an accompanying OWL ontology (docs), plus Minkiz, an attempt at finding entertaining (and perhaps even useful) ways of serialising the metadata.

Taking a guess, of particular interest might be: a convenient ordering by name, a list of coinmarketcap's top-250-ish pos coins and metadata, ditto for pow, coins listed by algo and, by way of what sadly passes for entertainment in this domain, the hodlerscope and, as a courtesy to visitors, an opportunity to express faux-outrage at the brazen exploitation of the foundry.

“Minkiz” is a piece of online art, if you can get behind that notion.

Other than that, the long-suffering subscribers to the current main Slimcoin discussion thread are kind enough to tolerate my occasional wafflings. There there's my work on V but you'll need a strong head for that.

Cheers

Graham

Thank you