Taxation [discussion]

[Birdy]

Previous robbery is not a justification for future robbery. I thought that was pretty obvious even for a person with public education.
People were less educated in the past because they were poorer, not because private education sucked.
States didn't take over because their way was superior, but because education is the key to control the youth and thus
the whole population over time. And because they could (by force), of course.

Anybody with eyes can see that public education has been a disaster. It's insanely expensive, doesn't give useful skills to the students
(for the most part), and it produces unthinking robots (like you) who are easily manipulated.

You are throwing too much stuff into one pot. Just, because people messed up a lot of things in public education doesn't mean it's a bad idea.

I'm thinking a great deal about how we could make the world a better place.
You just want to classify me as unthinking manipulated robot, because you don't care to do so. I think you have a big problem trusting other people (maybe because you were disappointed a lot?).

I was basically saying the 2 communities would be separate and mutually exclusive.  Therefore you wouldn't be paying for the people that want to live alone & they wouldn't be able to use your services.  Kinda of like France vs Somalia.  Regardless, good luck supporting this alt chain.  I think very few people would choose an alt chain where random people take money out of their accounts, but to each their own.

I see, but the world is getting closer together every day. I know people don't want to embrace paying money, but there is no other way.

So those who don't wish to be robbed are the real robbers. Orwellian doublespeak at its best.

Indeed a lot of people think they are the victim/ are just doing what they have the right to do while robbing others. My guess is, you are one of them.

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[WiW]

How about a better idea:

If you think we can do things better by pooling our money together, why don't you CONVINCE me that it's worth my (our) money. You know, instead of building the abuse into the system.

If it's really better for everyone, why do you have to do it by force?

[tuliplover]

Hey Birdy buddy, you sound dumb.

You want a tax, which literally means "let's pool our money together and decide together what to do with it". But you're dumb, about as dumb as a monkey. I don't want to pool my money with a monkey and then negotiate with him what to do with it. What if he wants to eat the money? Or throw it away? Or build bombs?

Screw you, you can take my money from my cold dead hands.


P.S. nothing personal, I don't know you I'm just trying to make a point.

P.S.S. Pro-tip: never assume that new technology has to adapt to old folks like you. Usually new technology presents a new world which is different than the old.

Come on dude, that first P.S. was really unnecessary.

[Birdy]

Hey Birdy buddy, you sound dumb.

You want a tax, which literally means "let's pool our money together and decide together what to do with it". But you're dumb, about as dumb as a monkey. I don't want to pool my money with a monkey and then negotiate with him what to do with it. What if he wants to eat the money? Or throw it away? Or build bombs?

Screw you, you can take my money from my cold dead hands.


P.S. nothing personal, I don't know you I'm just trying to make a point.

P.S.S. Pro-tip: never assume that new technology has to adapt to old folks like you. Usually new technology presents a new world which is different than the old.

I was expecting a lot of resistance to this idea, but I didn't expect that amount of hate.

States do exist for a reason, because you are stronger, if you are not alone.
Despite all the negative things happening in those we still have states, because there is some benefit to it.

I'm not an "old folk" btw.

[hiltonizer]

Just, because people messed up a lot of things in public education doesn't mean it's a bad idea.

Correct, it's a bad idea all on its own.

I'm thinking a great deal about how we could make the world a better place.

Good for you, now make it a better place with your money. Leave mine out of your schemes.

I see, but the world is getting closer together every day. I know people don't want to embrace paying money, but there is no other way.

Just because you don't know of/don't like any other way doesn't make this statement true.

Indeed a lot of people think they are the victim/ are just doing what they have the right to do while robbing others. My guess is, you are one of them.

Says the guy who wants our money to fund his ideas.

[tuliplover]

I'm thinking a great deal about how we could make the world a better place.
You just want to classify me as unthinking manipulated robot, because you don't care to do so. I think you have a big problem trusting other people (maybe because you were disappointed a lot?).

If you really want to make the world a better place then advocating more coercion and calling others stupid is not the best way to start.

[Birdy]

If it's really better for everyone, why do you have to do it by force?

What is this force you are talking about? Never mentioned one.
I'm talking about doing this out of free will.

But there will be a force coming for us, if we try to use Bitcoin as tax escape.

Says the guy who wants our money to fund his ideas.

Why do you assume I want your money with his idea?
I don't want a personal gain from this, I want a gain for everybody.

If you really want to make the world a better place then advocating more coercion and calling others stupid is not the best way to start.

Please reread the topic and count the insults towards me and the insults I have used.

[hiltonizer]

But there will be a force coming for us, if we try to use Bitcoin as tax escape.

Says the guy who wants our money to fund his ideas.

Why do you assume I want your money with his idea?
I don't want a personal gain from this, I want a gain for everybody.

You want the state to get my money, you advocate for the state, you feel that you benefit by the states existence. Therefore, you would personally gain from this.

[Mike Christ]

You are throwing too much stuff into one pot. Just, because people messed up a lot of things in public education doesn't mean it's a bad idea.

On the matter of public education: I'm going to assume you're from the west and/or live in a capitalistic society.

I believe we can both agree that monopolies are bad, yes?  Fall in quality, rise in price.  Assuming the state is an entity, like any other individual or company, why would it be appealing for the government to own almost every school?  Wouldn't different schools competing for the same prospective students aim to improve their quality of education at a reasonable price, as opposed to everyone paying for the same schools (whether or not you attend them, go to private schools, or home school,) owned by the same entity, providing a similar service without worry of losing customers (students.)

We can compare the quality of state-owned schools to privately-owned colleges to draw a conclusion.  I don't have data at hand, but, in my personal experience, my local high school was a death trap of bullies, avoiding the ghetto, and studying for the TAKS test (a state test) more than studying stuff that actually mattered.  If you can't afford private education or a parent who can stay at home to teach you, you are coerced into going to the state school; it's involuntary, and students, on average, suffer.  OTOH, my local college provides a phenomenal service and the professors are all marvelous; compared to high school, even my worst professors would've made good HS teachers.  It's a safe environment with a lot of nice folk (excluding this weird trend of shooting up schools we're having lately.)

Thus, I believe the question becomes, "How could the average person afford private schools?"  But then we must go into another topic; the quality of an individual's career.  Assuming people are continuing to work for near minimum wages, state schools appear to be a must.  Everything's interlinked and related, and it's a tricky subject, that of taxes.  It pretty much boils down to a dependency on government due to the removal of certain liberties (for whatever reason, but I'll assume they're all a form of, "It's for your safety/own good.")

[Birdy]

You are throwing too much stuff into one pot. Just, because people messed up a lot of things in public education doesn't mean it's a bad idea.

On the matter of public education: I'm going to assume you're from the west and/or live in a capitalistic society.

I believe we can both agree that monopolies are bad, yes?  Fall in quality, rise in price.  Assuming the state is an entity, like any other individual or company, why would it be appealing for the government to own almost every school?  Wouldn't different schools competing for the same prospective students aim to improve their quality of education at a reasonable price, as opposed to everyone paying for the same schools (whether or not you attend them, go to private schools, or home school,) owned by the same entity, providing a similar service without worry of losing customers (students.)

We can compare the quality of state-owned schools to privately-owned colleges to draw a conclusion.  I don't have data at hand, but, in my personal experience, my local high school was a death trap of bullies, avoiding the ghetto, and studying for the TAKS test (a state test) more than studying stuff that actually mattered.  If you can't afford private education or a parent who can stay at home to teach you, you are coerced into going to the state school; it's involuntary, and students, on average, suffer.  OTOH, my local college provides a phenomenal service and the professors are all marvelous; compared to high school, even my worst professors would've made good HS teachers.  It's a safe environment with a lot of nice folk (excluding this weird trend of shooting up schools we're having lately.)

Thus, I believe the question becomes, "How could the average person afford private schools?"  But then we must go into another topic; the quality of an individual's career.  Assuming people are continuing to work for near minimum wages, state schools appear to be a must.  Everything's interlinked and related, and it's a tricky subject, that of taxes.  It pretty much boils down to a dependency on government due to the removal of certain liberties (for whatever reason, but I'll assume they're all a form of, "It's for your safety/own good.")

Thank you for doing the first good answer instead of random insults and populist slogans.
I know it's not that easy, there are a lot of things that are bad about states, if there is another solution to those problems I would be fine with it.
States are the current form of the world, if we would try to throw this in disarray there will be a lot of blood.
That's why I'm thinking about solutions to avoid that.

[Traktion]

Voting is just mob rule. It's a majority imposing their will on a minority. As I heard elsewhere, it is the original 51% attack!

Anything desirable can be achieved through voluntary association. If people want it, they will pursue it.

If it helps, think of the state as a big cooperative, with a non-voluntary subscription model. Just change the latter to voluntary and let people figure things out for themselves (over time).

[nikkisnowe]

If bitcoin were to rise to the level that taxes were being affected, there would simply be more ammunition to impose a VAT taxation structure.  More emphasis would be placed on such a sales tax system and more emphasis would be placed on businesses to comply with the tax system.  The bitcoin community doesn't need to make any form of concession regarding taxation.  It's not their place.  Business will still be required to file taxes accordingly.  
While some in this forum argue that businesses will simply fail to comply since they retain bitcoin themselves, I doubt any real businesses going to risk an audit and subsequent penalties associated with it.  

[Traktion]

Hey Birdy buddy, you sound dumb.

You want a tax, which literally means "let's pool our money together and decide together what to do with it". But you're dumb, about as dumb as a monkey. I don't want to pool my money with a monkey and then negotiate with him what to do with it. What if he wants to eat the money? Or throw it away? Or build bombs?

Screw you, you can take my money from my cold dead hands.


P.S. nothing personal, I don't know you I'm just trying to make a point.

P.S.S. Pro-tip: never assume that new technology has to adapt to old folks like you. Usually new technology presents a new world which is different than the old.

I was expecting a lot of resistance to this idea, but I didn't expect that amount of hate.

States do exist for a reason, because you are stronger, if you are not alone.
Despite all the negative things happening in those we still have states, because there is some benefit to it.

I'm not an "old folk" btw.

You don't have to be alone without a state. If you want strength in numbers, then freely associate with many others.

[Birdy]

If bitcoin were to rise to the level that taxes were being affected, there would simply be more ammunition to impose a VAT taxation structure.  More emphasis would be placed on such a sales tax system and more emphasis would be placed on businesses to comply with the tax system.  The bitcoin community doesn't need to make any form of concession regarding taxation.  It's not their place.  Business will still be required to file taxes accordingly.  
While some in this forum argue that businesses will simply fail to comply since they retain bitcoin themselves, I doubt any real businesses going to risk an audit and subsequent penalties associated with it.  

I guess this could happen, it just would be so much easier to include it in the system.
Less unnecessary work -> more work that can be done on other things.

You don't have to be alone without a state. If you want strength in numbers, then freely associate with many others.

Yes, but most those groups have some kind of taxation, unless they don't have to spend money. Yearly payment to be in there and those things.


Glad we are back to discussing instead of hating.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Calm down guys. "Bitcoin & Taxes" problem can't be solved by democratic way, someone has to decide and force the others.

<spam>Btw, here about cryptocurrencies and taxes - http://qubic.boards.net/thread/6/solution-biggest-disadvantage-bitcoin</spam>

[Birdy]

Calm down guys. "Bitcoin & Taxes" problem can't be solved by democratic way, someone has to decide and force the others.

Sadly, I think you right.
We would be better off, if we could change that.

Even a democracy needs to force the minority though. No way to avoid this.

Taxation is not the downfall of bitcoin, bitcoin is the downfall of taxation.

But when I read lines like this, I get the feeling we are in for a lot of this force...
I just hope Bitcoin will survive it.

[WiW]

If it's really better for everyone, why do you have to do it by force?

What is this force you are talking about? Never mentioned one.
I'm talking about doing this out of free will.

Oh, great. I thought you were talking about TAXES. You know, where you are coerced to pay an organization that has a monopoly on violence and money, and if you don't you will be put in a cage by goons with guns.

We're talking about free will. Well, in that case you're just talking about free market cooperation.

Why then did you open this thread again?

[Birdy]

If it's really better for everyone, why do you have to do it by force?

What is this force you are talking about? Never mentioned one.
I'm talking about doing this out of free will.

Oh, great. I thought you were talking about TAXES. You know, where you are coerced to pay an organization that has a monopoly on violence and money, and if you don't, you will be put in a cage by goons with guns.

We're talking about free will. Well, in that case you're just talking about free market cooperation. Why then did you open this thread again?

Free will to cooperate and include this in the client to accomplish a fair and easy regulation, before the states come and force it down on us.
Because when they do, it will be everything but fair and easy.

Maybe they will enforce laws control over the internet, tax fraud is a great excuse to do so.
Maybe they will try to crush Bitcoin by banning the exchanges.
Things like that could be avoided.

[WiW]

Free will to cooperate and include this in the client to accomplish a fair and easy regulation, before the states come and force it down on us.
Because when they do, it will be everything but fair and easy.

Maybe they will enforce laws control over the internet, tax fraud is a great excuse to do so.
Maybe they will try to crush Bitcoin by banning the exchanges.
Things like that could be avoided.

So you're saying we can bluff the state? We'll design our own tax system to be fair (remove the monopoly of money from the state) and they'll just be all like "Oh, it's okay, they're already collecting taxes and it's not us. We'll just step aside then..."

The state will fight for their abusive monopoly on money either way, so I say if you want my money to work on a public school or road, convince me that it's for my own good and I'll cooperate. How about we start off by developing 3D printed weapons and taking away the monopoly of violence from the state?

I have no intention of cooperating with terrorists and so I am not open to any discussions of system-wide abuse and theft. Drop the name taxes and call it kickstarter and you'll have a better chance of getting people on board.

[Birdy]

So you're saying we can bluff the state? We'll design our own tax system to be fair (remove the monopoly of money from the state) and they'll just be all like "Oh, it's okay, they're already collecting taxes and it's not us. We'll just step aside then..."

The state will fight for their abusive monopoly on money either way, so I say if you want my money to work on a public school or road, convince me that it's for my own good and I'll cooperate. How about we start off by developing 3D printed weapons and taking away the monopoly of violence from the state?

I have no intention of cooperating with terrorists and so I am not open to any discussions of system-wide abuse and theft. Drop the name taxes and call it kickstarter and you'll have a better chance of getting people on board.

It's not about bluffing them, it's about cooperating instead of fighting.
Sure we could fight, but do we really want a war?

If USA and Russia shared your opinion, we would have a nuclear wasteland right now.