Taxation [discussion]

[Birdy]

Minarchist states will run down the planet in no time by pollution and ressource waste.
Where will you buy the next one?

(Our current system is doing this, too. But this would be even worse)

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[hiltonizer]

If you believe that collecting taxes can be done without violating the NAP, then thats fine.

Actually I do, fee based taxation. Pay-as-you-use. Also promotes competition. Guilty pay for courts, those bringing dropped charges pay for bringing false charges. Counter-aggressive confiscation. Etc.

Minarchist states will run down the planet in no time by pollution and ressource waste.
Where will you buy the next one?

(Our current system is doing this, too. But this would be even worse)

  You don't quite get it, do you?

How's fracking working out for you in this fascist state? The smog fog of Red Beijing? Neither would last too long in a night watchman state.

[Birdy]

  You don't quite get it, do you?

How's fracking working out for you in this fascist state? Wouldn't happen in a night watchman state.

What exactly would hinder it from happening?

[Wilikon]

I came here to find smart people and here we go again. Calling names etc is not too smart, but you would not know any better...

Yes, tell me more about this, please.
I think I got the bigger share of insults heading towards me.

Hey Birdy buddy, you sound dumb.[...]  But you're dumb, about as dumb as a monkey.

and it produces unthinking robots (like you) who are easily manipulated.

Listen. Maybe your heart is in right place but if you can, please come visit my hood in the Bronx one day and see what the state taxes does when "it" needs to never lose power. Pretty sad what planned destruction from a State can do and have people voting over and over for their own annihilation. You are spending your time on a bitcoin forum so expect people like myself to be suspicious about what exactly you are trying to say and what solutions you have, news ideas to advance the project.
I am not against taxes as long as there will be a public record of where MY money goes exactly. Something like a part of bitcoin would be cool: public. No need to pay for teachers grading themselves "Super Amazing" 90% of the time in places like Chicago etc. It is a fucking disgrace to know that 60% + of black women are aborting in NYC and failing 80% of the time in their amazing great school system. If i were a proud member of storm front I would vote for the building of a church dedicate to Saint Margaret Sanger. This is where the US taxes are going today: to finish up the job.
So you see I am not against you, but I may be against a way to keep the status quo and keep all the people the States is supposed to help, but keep in darkness to get rid of them quickly, in 3 generations or less.

It is not personal of course.

Bitcoin has very bright people behind it and should make the concept of taxes in itself sounds like a relic from the dark ages. Please contribute to the future and let's move on from the past and this sad present time.

[Hawker]

If you believe that collecting taxes can be done without violating the NAP, then thats fine.

Actually I do, fee based taxation. Pay-as-you-use. Also promotes competition. Guilty pay for courts, those bringing dropped charges pay for bringing false charges. Counter-aggressive confiscation. Etc.

...snip...

No - that's selling services.  Taxation is where you insist that the person pays whether they want the nightwatchman or not.

[Birdy]

Listen. Maybe your heart is in right place but if you can, please come visit my hood in the Bronx one day and see what the state taxes does when "it" needs to never lose power. Pretty sad what planned destruction from a State can do and have people voting over and over for their own annihilation. You are spending your time on a bitcoin forum so expect people like myself to be suspicious about what exactly you are trying to say and what solutions you have, news ideas to advance the project.
I am not against taxes as long as there will be a public record of where MY money goes exactly. Something like a part of bitcoin would be cool: public. No need to pay for teachers grading themselves "Super Amazing" 90% of the time in places like Chicago etc. It is a fucking disgrace to know that 60% + of black women are aborting in NYC and failing 80% of the time in their amazing great school system. If i were a proud member of storm front I would vote for the building of a church dedicate to Saint Margaret Sanger. This is where the US taxes are going today: to finish up the job.
So you see I am not against you, but I may be against a way to keep the status quo and keep all the people the States is supposed to help, but keep in darkness to get rid of them quickly, in 3 generations or less.

It is not personal of course.

Bitcoin has very bright people behind it and should make the concept of taxes in itself sounds like a relic from the dark ages. Please contribute to the future and let's move on from the past and this sad present time.

I'm afraid that's quite far away, I'm not from The US.
I can see where your view is coming from, I fully support your wish of a public record where this money is spent.

While I think there is need for some kind of tax and state, the money should go into good education, environment protection, infrastructure and all this.
There should be no need to hide where the money is going.

[hiltonizer]

What exactly would hinder it from happening?

The same way its supposed to work now. Law suits and counter-aggression... but governments are too corrupt to enforce it. The first guy to have his tap water set fire should have all but owned that fracking company.

No - that's selling services.  Taxation is where you insist that the person pays whether they want the nightwatchman or not.

Tomato Tomata. If you look at from the stand point of the government being nothing more than a DRO of last resort, I suppose your right. My method however would solve some of the issues of child abuse and those who refuse to arbitrate.

[Hawker]

...snip...

No - that's selling services.  Taxation is where you insist that the person pays whether they want the nightwatchman or not.

Tomato Tomata. If you look at from the stand point of the government being nothing more than a DRO of last resort, I suppose your right. My method however would solve some of the issues of child abuse and those who refuse to arbitrate.

The key thing is coercion.  If you don't have that, you don't have your nightwatchman state.  If you do, then its just a question of how big the state should be.

[Valle]

Why current system when you pay income tax on realized gains + sales tax doesn't fit there?

[Malawi]

States have destroyed free and stateless societies for 100s of years and will continue to do so fpr 100s of years time if we allow it.

ftfy.

Um - http://daviddfriedman.com/The_Machinery_of_Freedom_.pdf

Read it.  Stateless societies have existed and were indeed destroyed by states.  My country, Ireland, was one of them. The important thing is to understand why it was inevitable and why they won't be coming back.

Then you probably know that Iceland was very early in forming a democracy and laws. IOW-building a modern state. Before that there were small kings and owners of large farms etc. that ruled the land. Or as Samuel Jackson would have said at that time - "I pitty the fool who has to rent his land".

[World]

http://news.yahoo.com/internet-sales-tax-could-mean-bitcoin-stash-141540407--politics.html

[Mike Christ]

http://news.yahoo.com/internet-sales-tax-could-mean-bitcoin-stash-141540407--politics.html

Random nitpick, and I'm sure there's an answer to it somewhere: I still don't get why corporations have their skyscrapers in the government's meat pie.  Aren't businesses supposed to do business stuff, like providing goods and services?  What does the faceless, abstract entity that is Amazon have to do with human affairs?  Is it the owner who is in favor of Internet sales tax?  Is it the employees?  I don't get it.  Is Amazon supposed to have an official political standing point, and who decides it?

[Wilikon]

States have destroyed free and stateless societies for 100s of years and will continue to do so fpr 100s of years time if we allow it.

ftfy.

Um - http://daviddfriedman.com/The_Machinery_of_Freedom_.pdf

Read it.  Stateless societies have existed and were indeed destroyed by states.  My country, Ireland, was one of them. The important thing is to understand why it was inevitable and why they won't be coming back.

Then you probably know that Iceland was very early in forming a democracy and laws. IOW-building a modern state. Before that there were small kings and owners of large farms etc. that ruled the land. Or as Samuel Jackson would have said at that time - "I pitty the fool who has to rent his land".

Mister T... 

[virginiallorca]

Yes taxes are a hassle. I am converting some BTC to cash and not sure how I am going to deal with tax consequences.

[Hawker]

http://news.yahoo.com/internet-sales-tax-could-mean-bitcoin-stash-141540407--politics.html

Random nitpick, and I'm sure there's an answer to it somewhere: I still don't get why corporations have their skyscrapers in the government's meat pie.  Aren't businesses supposed to do business stuff, like providing goods and services?  What does the faceless, abstract entity that is Amazon have to do with human affairs?  Is it the owner who is in favor of Internet sales tax?  Is it the employees?  I don't get it.  Is Amazon supposed to have an official political standing point, and who decides it?

At one point, Internet sales taxes would have hampered Amazon and it lobbied to prevent it.

Right now, Amazon has a unique infrastructure that means it can handle an Internet sales tax.  But a new competitor would not be able to handle it from day 1 so it creates a barrier to entry to Amazon's market.

By a strange co-incidence, Amazon now is all for an Internet sales tax.  Go figure...

[hiltonizer]

http://news.yahoo.com/internet-sales-tax-could-mean-bitcoin-stash-141540407--politics.html

Random nitpick, and I'm sure there's an answer to it somewhere: I still don't get why corporations have their skyscrapers in the government's meat pie.  Aren't businesses supposed to do business stuff, like providing goods and services?  What does the faceless, abstract entity that is Amazon have to do with human affairs?  Is it the owner who is in favor of Internet sales tax?  Is it the employees?  I don't get it.  Is Amazon supposed to have an official political standing point, and who decides it?

Drug companies for example spend somewhere to the tune of $9 out of every $10 on regulatory BS... you won't find a bigger fan of those requirements than big pharma.

[myrkul]

It's so easy to just put all the fault on the evil states.

I'm not a supporter of states per se, but I cannot see anarchy doing a good job for humanity.

So what are you gonna do about it? Force me to live under democracy? Sounds like a better job for humanity.

Ladies and gentlemen: Rationale no. 1 for coercion and use of force.
"You don't want my rules? You don't know what's good for you. I will force rules on you to make this world better for you!"

Present a concept that will not do this and will not end up in chaos.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism

[Malawi]

Then you probably know that Iceland was very early in forming a democracy and laws. IOW-building a modern state. Before that there were small kings and owners of large farms etc. that ruled the land. Or as Samuel Jackson would have said at that time - "I pitty the fool who has to rent his land".

Mister T... 

Damn, wrong guy.

[liberty90]

Anarchist, huh?
There are things that the community has to pay for together, if you like it or not.

Land Value Tax, real estate taxes...
No income or sales taxes necessary.

In 1894, Democrats in Congress passed the Wilson-Gorman tariff, which imposed the first peacetime income tax. The rate was 2% on income over $4000, which meant fewer than 10% of households would pay any. The purpose of the income tax was to make up for revenue that would be lost by tariff reductions.[38]

(not that I support any involuntary taxation)

[Walter Rothbard]

What if we as Bitcoin community would offer a deal?
We could try to create a fair taxation model and integrate this into the Bitcoin system?

Bitcoin already has a fair taxation model:
You keep your money and contribute only to causes you believe in.

That's the only fair taxation model in the world.