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Author Topic: The Barry Silbert segwit2x agreement with >80% miner support.  (Read 120004 times)
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ComputerGenie
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July 17, 2017, 02:54:06 PM
 #1421

.... BUT it would have to have the support of the Bitcoin Core team.
Just when I was beginning to like you.  Roll Eyes

If you have to ask "why?", you wouldn`t understand my answer.
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July 17, 2017, 02:58:36 PM
 #1422

.... BUT it would have to have the support of the Bitcoin Core team.
Just when I was beginning to like you.  Roll Eyes

ahhahaha... Cheesy Well may I ask why not? Wouldn't you like it if everyone was in the same boat? Did any of the Core members run over your dog or something ? Maybe it's just an idealistic pipe dream that everyone would compromise a bit and do something with minimal fuss.

ComputerGenie
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July 17, 2017, 03:03:46 PM
 #1423

.... BUT it would have to have the support of the Bitcoin Core team.
Just when I was beginning to like you.  Roll Eyes

ahhahaha... Cheesy Well may I ask why not? Wouldn't you like it if everyone was in the same boat? Did any of the Core members run over your dog or something ? Maybe it's just an idealistic pipe dream that everyone would compromise a bit and do something with minimal fuss.
When something is "only if TeamX supports it", that thing is not likely a "compromise", nor is it likely to be devoid of whatever specific motivations TeamX might have, nor is it decentralized.  Wink

If you have to ask "why?", you wouldn`t understand my answer.
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July 17, 2017, 03:14:19 PM
 #1424

.... BUT it would have to have the support of the Bitcoin Core team.
Just when I was beginning to like you.  Roll Eyes

ahhahaha... Cheesy Well may I ask why not? Wouldn't you like it if everyone was in the same boat? Did any of the Core members run over your dog or something ? Maybe it's just an idealistic pipe dream that everyone would compromise a bit and do something with minimal fuss.
When something is "only if TeamX supports it", that thing is not likely a "compromise", nor is it likely to be devoid of whatever specific motivations TeamX might have, nor is it decentralized.  Wink

I cannot argue against that, but in that case if we have a super-majority in the user/miner space then I would accept that as "the will of the people" and Core should do the same. Team X can support something and have it be a compromise at the same time. The point is that everyone gets a part of what they want, but not entirely 100% what _they_ and only they want.

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July 17, 2017, 03:17:56 PM
 #1425

.... BUT it would have to have the support of the Bitcoin Core team.
...The point is that everyone gets a part of what they want, but not entirely 100% what _they_ and only they want.
Those are opposing views Core will only support a thing if Core wants 100% of that thing.  Undecided

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July 17, 2017, 03:45:12 PM
 #1426

Is this for real, this forum is censored???

Quote from: Bitcoin Forum
A reply of yours, quoted below, was deleted by a Bitcoin Forum moderator. Posts are most frequently deleted because they are off-topic, though they can also be deleted for other reasons. In the future, please avoid posting things that need to be deleted.

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These modifications don't seem like difficult to do in 4 months, right ?
Making the modifications is not enough.  You need to upgrade every bitcoin node in the world as well.

Not really.  If you keep your old node running, you copy the the old fork, if sufficient miners go with the old fork to still make some blocks.  If you download the new node, you copy the new fork. 

But in all of this, you don't even need to run a node.  You can just connect your light wallet to one of the miner pool nodes.  If you connect to an old-chain miner pool node, then you transact on the old chain ; if you connect to a new-chain miner pool node, you transact on the new chain.  You should be careful to avoid replay attacks, this could be done by slightly modifying something in the signature scheme in the new chain.

There's nothing special about having to download another piece of software if you want to run another coin.  In fact, exactly the same would happen with a UASF or any other such thing.  Monero or ethereum or dash or... nodes also have to upgrade when there's a hard fork.  That's part of the game.

Quote
Segwit as it is with 4 MB blocks can be deployed in two weeks, however.  There are still thousands of nodes not supporting segwit, but it doesn't matter.  Those will continue to work just fine, since it is a soft fork.

Of course it matters.  That would be nodes that cannot understand segwit transactions.  Yes, they wouldn't refuse the block chain, but they cannot understand it.  It would see funny transactions, but accepted as "anyone can spend".  If I'd pay a user with a segwit transaction, and his light wallet connects to such an old node, he would not see my transaction arrive.  The user of the old node himself wouldn't understand my transaction if I were to have segwit coins and wanted to pay him.  So this would be a crippled node in any case.

As you know in the mean time, I don't believe in the decentralization value of non mining full nodes, but the decentralization value of crippled full nodes that don't have the witness data and don't understand the segwit transactions is even much more of a ridiculous idea.

The thing is that segwit is a radical modification of how bitcoin functions.  I'm not saying it is bad (I think it contains some very good ideas).  But it is a radically different way of doing many things.  Essentially, the legacy bitcoin and the segwit bitcoin are two entirely different things.  A clean hard fork is much more adequate for this.  And a clean hard fork would also allow people to "not be tied to backward compatibility".  Many crypto currencies have such a policy.   There's a lot of clumsiness in the requirement of a soft fork that disappears with a hard fork.  For a radical modification like this one, a hard fork is much cleaner.

The whole "leading argument" in this whole business is the irrational belief that non-mining full nodes have any decentralization value, and that old nodes with old node software are important.   Both of these notions are entirely wrong, but they are the fundamental argument on which all of this dispute is based.

My own thinking is that Core wants to push people out of the block chain, and onto the LN, because that's their toy, and they think that LN has not much to offer (probably erroneously !) apart if people are FORCED off the chain.  I think that *this* is the whole origin of this crazy list of arguments, that culminates in the absolute importance to the security of bitcoin of an old piece of software running on an old PC somewhere on a 56Kbit link in some basement somewhere in Africa or so, as excuse for not having to increase the legacy-transaction room on the chain.

In as much as "increasing block size to 2 MB" was considered a disaster for our old PC on his 56Kbit link in that basement, visibly increasing witness data to 4 MB was not going to be a problem, because somehow, these witness data were not essential to the security of bitcoin, (you could accept that *someone* *somewhere* had checked them, right ?).  One needed an army of full nodes that were constantly checking the single available chain out there in all of its details (was the argument), but suddenly, that wasn't needed any more for the witness data.
Going from 1 MB to 2 MB was going to kill all full nodes, but going from 1 MB to 4 MB of witness data wasn't a problem.

In other words, one cannot be so naive, as a bitcoin developer, not to know that if there's only one chain out there, only a few full nodes would be sufficient to be whistle-blowers to tell the world the miners are making a false chain ; at which point all users could consider leaving all their bitcoin holdings for what they are and never touch a bitcoin again ; or accept whatever miners find a consensus on, and hope they will still accept your transaction.  And that whether that single chain out there is checked 5 times, or is checked 7000 times in a row, doesn't matter.  The guy finding out that it doesn't check, has news to sell (but most probably will first sell his own coins....).

This whole story of the necessity of a lot of non-mining full nodes, crippled or not, from the moment they do not allow more than 1 MB of legacy transactions, but without any problem, are blind to 3 MB extra segwit data, smells as a fundamental desire of core to asphyxiate legacy transactions, and ONLY legacy transactions.
The poor African in his basement with his 20 BTC transactions (smaller ones are not going to be profitable given that he needs legacy transactions on his old node, and the fees will be high) that cannot afford a 3 TB disk and a better internet link, but has to pay $10.- for a transaction, running old core node software, brings tears in my eyes Smiley

This whole story only makes sense if somehow, one wanted to force people off legacy transactions, and all false arguments are good to sell that.  But there's no technical or game-theoretical justification for that.  This is why the story of "no hard forks" and "importance of full-node-in-your-basement" has been propagated in my eyes, because it is obviously false as a logical argument.


Very interesting thanks for posting
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July 17, 2017, 03:49:40 PM
 #1427

I just report the news. Don't forget the NYA and 80% of miners have pledged to switch over to btc1. If that happens Jeff Garzik and friends will control bitcoin.

That can easily be prevented by a PoW change and I think we are getting very close to it.  Grin Whatever they do, my UASF node is up and running.

Hold on, gotta go throw out my miners in the trash  Undecided

Well, Bitcoin is an experimental project. Putting it in the center of your life was a mistake. There maybe updates and changes which won't suit everyone, you should have taken this into consideration.

Not your fault though, who would knew that majority of the miners would act like retards? A worthy experience.

Yes you are totally right and I was fully aware that this could happen. It's still too early to tell how this will play out though. Retards indeed.

Genuine question: Can somebody explain what the problem is?

I thought far above 80% had announced to support SegWit2x already. So it seems like everything will go smoothly, and the problem will be solved soon.

I'm not a newbie, but I don't understand the fine print here. And I'm sure a lot less knowledgeable people are reading this. So maybe one of you super-educated bitcoiners could explain.
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July 17, 2017, 03:52:42 PM
 #1428

Is this for real, this forum is censored???
AFAIK, this is the least censored public venue where pro-Core folks write/post/moderate.

If you have to ask "why?", you wouldn`t understand my answer.
Always be on the look out, because you never know when you'll be stalked by hit-men that eat nothing but cream cheese....
ComputerGenie
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July 17, 2017, 03:55:52 PM
 #1429

Genuine question: Can somebody explain what the problem is?

I thought far above 80% had announced to support SegWit2x already. So it seems like everything will go smoothly, and the problem will be solved soon.

I'm not a newbie, but I don't understand the fine print here. And I'm sure a lot less knowledgeable people are reading this. So maybe one of you super-educated bitcoiners could explain.
Allow me to paraphrase Luke Dashjr and confuse you even more Tongue :
People are only pushing for SegWit2x, and the early adoption of SegWit, in order to delay the adoption of SegWit.  Roll Eyes

If you have to ask "why?", you wouldn`t understand my answer.
Always be on the look out, because you never know when you'll be stalked by hit-men that eat nothing but cream cheese....
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July 17, 2017, 03:57:24 PM
 #1430

Is this for real, this forum is censored???
AFAIK, this is the least censored public venue where pro-Core folks write/post/moderate.

Ok thanks for explaining
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July 17, 2017, 04:02:20 PM
 #1431

One by one the pools are starting to solve BIP91 blocks so there is no sign of any of them pulling out now. This of course doesn't mean they're running the btc1 branch as there is a popular BIP91 only branch available too that has only the segwit component of segwit2x...

Yes I am following BIP91 blocks at https://www.xbt.eu/ good resource

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July 17, 2017, 04:03:32 PM
 #1432

One by one the pools are starting to solve BIP91 blocks so there is no sign of any of them pulling out now. This of course doesn't mean they're running the btc1 branch as there is a popular BIP91 only branch available too that has only the segwit component of segwit2x...

That would bring a tear of joy to my eyes! If we can have just SegWit without the hard fork it would be amazing. Then later on if _EVERYONE_ is on board with a hard fork without any drama I'm cool with that. BUT it would have to have the support of the Bitcoin Core team.

From my understanding, nobody can force nobody to have 2mb forks. So no matter which BIP you run, as long as It supports segwit, you get it. That includes, BIP91,148,141 and whatever. After we get segwit, bitcoinABC'ers, BTC1'ers, BU'ers and any other filth will be hardforking themselves to their own altcoin.

And we'll live in peace.

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Dr Bloggood
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July 17, 2017, 04:17:59 PM
 #1433

Genuine question: Can somebody explain what the problem is?

I thought far above 80% had announced to support SegWit2x already. So it seems like everything will go smoothly, and the problem will be solved soon.

I'm not a newbie, but I don't understand the fine print here. And I'm sure a lot less knowledgeable people are reading this. So maybe one of you super-educated bitcoiners could explain.
Allow me to paraphrase Luke Dashjr and confuse you even more Tongue :
People are only pushing for SegWit2x, and the early adoption of SegWit, in order to delay the adoption of SegWit.  Roll Eyes

Hm, yes, if confusing me was the goal, you achieved it...  Huh
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July 17, 2017, 04:24:40 PM
 #1434

Allow me to paraphrase Luke Dashjr and confuse you even more Tongue :
People are only pushing for SegWit2x, and the early adoption of SegWit, in order to delay the adoption of SegWit.  Roll Eyes
Hm, yes, if confusing me was the goal, you achieved it...  Huh
Welcome to the debate and the arguments made in it.  Grin

If you have to ask "why?", you wouldn`t understand my answer.
Always be on the look out, because you never know when you'll be stalked by hit-men that eat nothing but cream cheese....
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July 17, 2017, 04:27:10 PM
 #1435

Allow me to paraphrase Luke Dashjr and confuse you even more Tongue :
People are only pushing for SegWit2x, and the early adoption of SegWit, in order to delay the adoption of SegWit.  Roll Eyes
Hm, yes, if confusing me was the goal, you achieved it...  Huh
Welcome to the debate and the arguments made in it.  Grin

Thank you very much!  Grin
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July 17, 2017, 05:33:14 PM
 #1436

That can easily be prevented by a PoW change and I think we are getting very close to it.

Well, no. It can't be prevented by a PoW change. Though if you wanna bail, feel free. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Quote
Whatever they do, my UASF node is up and running.

As I was saying...

Anyone with a campaign ad in their signature -- for an organization with which they are not otherwise affiliated -- is automatically deducted credibility points.

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July 17, 2017, 07:16:40 PM
Last edit: July 17, 2017, 07:32:50 PM by hv_
 #1437

Question: seeing majority of miner voting for SW2x, haven't core's and UASF nerd's  fears of centralization driven miners to finally collude and now ending up in a perfect centralization, but against core and exact their fears??

 Huh

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July 17, 2017, 07:26:25 PM
 #1438

Denial is a very powerful force.

If you have to ask "why?", you wouldn`t understand my answer.
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July 17, 2017, 07:30:11 PM
 #1439

Segwit is the best possible update Bitcoin can have, followed later by a hf. After that sidechains, that will make Bitcoin mainstream.
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July 17, 2017, 07:35:33 PM
 #1440

Segwit is the best possible update Bitcoin can have, followed later by a hf. After that sidechains, that will make Bitcoin mainstream.

Bitcoin is already mainstream.

And why is the hard fork may I ask? For the block size increase? Nobody will support that thing. If a hard fork happens to create a bigger block bitcoin, it will be an altcoin. They better start a new alt with the desired specs instead. They may even premine it till they satisfy their greed! (Actually I don't think that's possible lol)

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