Do we want to work with money regulators, or keep Bitcoin unregulated?

[edmundedgar]

"We can work with regulators to make sure Bitcoin is acceptable to them. For instance we can ensure that it remains possible to track the flow of money through Bitcoin. We can also ensure that there are options if certain funds need to be frozen and blacklisted, due to fraud, theft, or because they encode illegal data. We can work with them to find ways to apply AML rules to Bitcoin transactions and to the exchanges. There are ways to put taxation into Bitcoin itself, so that taxes are automatically applied when a transaction is made. Maybe even one day we'll be required to prevent dangerous levels of deflation. A lot of these changes are technical, such as improving scalability so transactions can remain on the blockchain, developing P2P blacklist technologies, and preventing deflation."

Wtf i missed this mass of bullshit! And this is what the "foundation" want to do?? Well now i understand why some wants it to disappear!

Repeating for people who read the start and end of the thread but not the middle: No, this isn't what the foundation want to do. This is a load of bullshit made up by the OP that nobody wants to do. If you read the original post carefully it's not actually saying they want to do it, but it's phrased in a way to make people think they do.

There's one actual thing in there that the foundation, along with all non-bonkers people, want to do, which is to improve scalability. By throwing that in with all these straw men the OP is trying to make you to think that improving scalability is part of an evil regulatory plot, in the hope that the Bitcoin network will be crippled at a low transaction rate and people who want to make normal transactions will have to use an alternative solution involving a load of quasi-PayPal type companies, which he happens to be building.

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[XRcode]

We shouldn't even be talking to the government... This is none of their business and it should stay that way.

Did you just say, "money isn't the governments business?"

No, I said bitcoin is not the governments business.. And it clearly isn't.
So who's going to regulate? The US? Well guess what, the rest of the world doesn't give a shit what the US says.
Besides, according to FINCEN...... Well nevermind they are just a bunch of overbearing dictators that have no respect for the constitution, privacy, or any civil rights rights for that matter.

Government attempts to regulate our bitcoins should be met with fierce opposition, and no negotiations. 

[QuestionAuthority]

We shouldn't even be talking to the government... This is none of their business and it should stay that way.

Did you just say, "money isn't the governments business?"

No, I said bitcoin is not the governments business.. And it clearly isn't.
So who's going to regulate? The US? Well guess what, the rest of the world doesn't give a shit what the US says.
Besides, according to FINCEN...... Well nevermind they are just a bunch of overbearing dictators that have no respect for the constitution, privacy, or any civil rights rights for that matter.

Government attempts to regulate our bitcoins should be met with fierce opposition, and no negotiations.  

Sorry but anything the government chooses to regulate is their business. Honestly, I don't see how a woman's uterus is the governments business but they have been regulating that one for years. I remember reading Roe v. Wade in college and wondering at the time how any government could think that's their business.

I understand your frustration and you're right the rest of the world shouldn't care what happens here and shouldn't react to it. But the truth is the US government isn't isolationist and hasn't really ever been. They put pressures on other governments in various forms to impose their will right or wrong. This means that legislation passed here will be closely watched by other nations and possibly copied. Is this wrong? Probably. Can we change it? Probably not.

I agree that most governments are overbearing and at times dictatorial. Can we change that? Probably not because that requires citizens who care enough to participate in their system of governance in mass and US citizens clearly don't.

Should we strike with fierce opposition? I don't know - you lead and we'll see who follows.

[crumbs]

We shouldn't even be talking to the government... This is none of their business and it should stay that way.

You have some reading to do my friend. Not only is money their business, it is their money.

correct. money = FIAT. the US government own dollars. so dollars is their business.. not bitcoin

Not quite.  "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's" doesn't stop at the coins with his pics on them.  All commerce in Caesar's domain is taxable by him.  This world is not as soft & fuzzy as you've been lead to believe.  Unfortunate fact number one:  The government is not stupid.  Unfortunate fact number two:  You are not the first one to think of taking a country's currency out of equation to avoid taxation.  Honest.  There were others.  Sad conclusion:  The clever tax loophole you think you've discovered has been successfully addressed & plugged up.  At your expense.  

No matter how slow & unwieldy government bureaucracies are, a few millenia is usually enough.  Though this is unsettling, governments put plenty of thought into parting you with your delicious caek, and have been for quite a while.  That's pretty much what they do, that's how they got to God Mode.  No noob is going to pwn them by "not converting into fiat."  If you ever wondered why major corporations don't avoid taxation by trading with bricks of gold instead of gobment money, and why you have to pay taxes on your house (where the only fiat involved is the stuff you need to fork over), there's your answer.

[Gabi]

"We can work with regulators to make sure Bitcoin is acceptable to them. For instance we can ensure that it remains possible to track the flow of money through Bitcoin. We can also ensure that there are options if certain funds need to be frozen and blacklisted, due to fraud, theft, or because they encode illegal data. We can work with them to find ways to apply AML rules to Bitcoin transactions and to the exchanges. There are ways to put taxation into Bitcoin itself, so that taxes are automatically applied when a transaction is made. Maybe even one day we'll be required to prevent dangerous levels of deflation. A lot of these changes are technical, such as improving scalability so transactions can remain on the blockchain, developing P2P blacklist technologies, and preventing deflation."

Wtf i missed this mass of bullshit! And this is what the "foundation" want to do?? Well now i understand why some wants it to disappear!

I don't know who is being quoted here. But the foundation does not have a position like this that I am aware of.  There is zero support for something like a backdoor in bitcoin. And "putting taxation" into bitcoin is basically a non-starter. Who's tax, USA, Poland, Zimbabwe?

It is from the first post of this thread, by retep https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=192924.msg1999501#msg1999501

[crumbs]

We shouldn't even be talking to the government... This is none of their business and it should stay that way.

Did you just say, "money isn't the governments business?"

No, I said bitcoin is not the governments business.. And it clearly isn't.
So who's going to regulate? The US? Well guess what, the rest of the world doesn't give a shit what the US says.

You obviously don't understand what jurisdiction means.  US will regulate Bitcoin within its borders & as it interfaces with US, no different from, say, kiddie pr0nz.  It also may put pressure on other governments to regulate Bitcoin within their borders.  Why did i choose a hot button like child pr0nz?  Because like Bitcoin, its consumption seems impossible to regulate -- it's just a bunch of blips & bloops in da tubez, or data stored on pedo's hard drives.  And yet the party van arrives.

Besides, according to FINCEN...... Well nevermind they are just a bunch of overbearing dictators that have no respect for the constitution, privacy, or any civil rights rights for that matter.
Government attempts to regulate our bitcoins should be met with fierce opposition, and no negotiations.  

If interwebz bravura is what you're talking about, then sure.  IRL?  I doubt it.  If being stripped down to your undies & felt up at the airport when you forget a few coins in your pocket didn't meet with "fierce opposition," i doubt anything will.

[Severian]

"Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's" doesn't stop at the coins with his pics on them.  All commerce in Caesar's domain is taxable by him. 

The rest of the "Render unto Caesar" quote establishes that nothing is actually Caesar's and that Caesar is a big jerk that can be ignored.

[edmundedgar]

"We can work with regulators to make sure Bitcoin is acceptable to them. For instance we can ensure that it remains possible to track the flow of money through Bitcoin. We can also ensure that there are options if certain funds need to be frozen and blacklisted, due to fraud, theft, or because they encode illegal data. We can work with them to find ways to apply AML rules to Bitcoin transactions and to the exchanges. There are ways to put taxation into Bitcoin itself, so that taxes are automatically applied when a transaction is made. Maybe even one day we'll be required to prevent dangerous levels of deflation. A lot of these changes are technical, such as improving scalability so transactions can remain on the blockchain, developing P2P blacklist technologies, and preventing deflation."

Wtf i missed this mass of bullshit! And this is what the "foundation" want to do?? Well now i understand why some wants it to disappear!

I don't know who is being quoted here. But the foundation does not have a position like this that I am aware of.  There is zero support for something like a backdoor in bitcoin. And "putting taxation" into bitcoin is basically a non-starter. Who's tax, USA, Poland, Zimbabwe?

It is from the first post of this thread, by retep https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=192924.msg1999501#msg1999501

Right, but read retep's post carefully - it's written to make people think the Bitcoin Foundation are taking that position, without actually claiming it. We've discussed this more upthread, but it's a very nasty, slippery piece of politics, IMHO.

[crumbs]

"Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's" doesn't stop at the coins with his pics on them.  All commerce in Caesar's domain is taxable by him. 

The rest of the "Render unto Caesar" quote establishes that nothing is actually Caesar's and that Caesar is a big jerk that can be ignored.

“Pay no attention to Caesar. Caesar doesn’t have the slightest idea of what is going on.” --Bokonon, in Vonnegut's  Cat's Cradle.  

[Severian]

“Pay no attention to Caesar. Caesar doesn’t have the slightest idea of what is going on.” --Bokonon, in Vonnegut's  Cat's Cradle.  

Heartstring pull....I wrote a letter to Kurt when I was a kid in the 70's and he wrote back.

Wanna guess what his opinion of government regulation of Bitcoin would be?

[crumbs]

“Pay no attention to Caesar. Caesar doesn’t have the slightest idea of what is going on.” --Bokonon, in Vonnegut's  Cat's Cradle.  

Heartstring pull....I wrote a letter to Kurt when I was a kid in the 70's and he wrote back.

Wanna guess what his opinion of government regulation of Bitcoin would be?

He's also the guy who wrote God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater,  and his alter ego sci fi writer is responsible for The Money Tree, so he's made it pretty clear

[Severian]

He's also the guy who wrote God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater,  and his alter ego sci fi writer is responsible for The Money Tree, so he's made it pretty clear

Yep, we do:

"There is a tragic flaw in our precious Constitution, and I don't' know what can be done to fix it. This is it: Only nut cases want to be president." -KV

[XRcode]

We shouldn't even be talking to the government... This is none of their business and it should stay that way.

Did you just say, "money isn't the governments business?"

No, I said bitcoin is not the governments business.. And it clearly isn't.
So who's going to regulate? The US? Well guess what, the rest of the world doesn't give a shit what the US says.

You obviously don't understand what jurisdiction means.  US will regulate Bitcoin within its borders & as it interfaces with US, no different from, say, kiddie pr0nz.  It also may put pressure on other governments to regulate Bitcoin within their borders.  Why did i choose a hot button like child pr0nz?  Because like Bitcoin, its consumption seems impossible to regulate -- it's just a bunch of blips & bloops in da tubez, or data stored on pedo's hard drives.  And yet the party van arrives.

Besides, according to FINCEN...... Well nevermind they are just a bunch of overbearing dictators that have no respect for the constitution, privacy, or any civil rights rights for that matter.
Government attempts to regulate our bitcoins should be met with fierce opposition, and no negotiations.  

If interwebz bravura is what you're talking about, then sure.  IRL?  I doubt it.  If being stripped down to your undies & felt up at the airport when you forget a few coins in your pocket didn't meet with "fierce opposition," i doubt anything will.

You must be a genius! I write C but I don't understand plain English.
You want to be regulated? go ahead... I for one will never tell any government how many bitcoins I mined, or what I sold them for....
Hell I even take steps to make sure they won't find out even if they come take my computers...
You can TRY to regulate me, and I will simply not co-operate. quite simple.

If the rest of the public took a similar hard line against this shit, we might be getting somewhere.
In reality the only ones that are somewhat forced to answer to the government are the exchanges.
So you go answer to the government while I do the same thing I always did, and always will.

How many times has the constitution been amended to strip you of your freedom and privacy even further?
How many Americans can sit at home in their underwear and play a game of poker on their computer in the land of the FREE?
It's also funny how you see Americans in other parts of the world talking about how they come from the land of the free like they invented freedom or something...
The land of the free looks pretty damn oppressive to me.

[crumbs]

We shouldn't even be talking to the government... This is none of their business and it should stay that way.

Did you just say, "money isn't the governments business?"

No, I said bitcoin is not the governments business.. And it clearly isn't.
So who's going to regulate? The US? Well guess what, the rest of the world doesn't give a shit what the US says.

You obviously don't understand what jurisdiction means.  US will regulate Bitcoin within its borders & as it interfaces with US, no different from, say, kiddie pr0nz.  It also may put pressure on other governments to regulate Bitcoin within their borders.  Why did i choose a hot button like child pr0nz?  Because like Bitcoin, its consumption seems impossible to regulate -- it's just a bunch of blips & bloops in da tubez, or data stored on pedo's hard drives.  And yet the party van arrives.

Besides, according to FINCEN...... Well nevermind they are just a bunch of overbearing dictators that have no respect for the constitution, privacy, or any civil rights rights for that matter.
Government attempts to regulate our bitcoins should be met with fierce opposition, and no negotiations.  

If interwebz bravura is what you're talking about, then sure.  IRL?  I doubt it.  If being stripped down to your undies & felt up at the airport when you forget a few coins in your pocket didn't meet with "fierce opposition," i doubt anything will.

You must be a genius! I write C but I don't understand plain English.

Should i feel sorry for you? 

You want to be regulated? go ahead... I for one will never tell any government how many bitcoins I mined, or what I sold them for....
Hell I even take steps to make sure they won't find out even if they come take my computers...
You can TRY to regulate me, and I will simply not co-operate. quite simple.

Would hate to see your code.  Where'd you get the notion that i want to be regulated? 

If the rest of the public took a similar hard line against this shit, we might be getting somewhere.
In reality the only ones that are somewhat forced to answer to the government are the exchanges.
So you go answer to the government while I do the same thing I always did, and always will.

How many times has the constitution been amended to strip you of your freedom and privacy even further?
How many Americans can sit at home in their underwear and play a game of poker on their computer in the land of the FREE?
It's also funny how you see Americans in other parts of the world talking about how they come from the land of the free like they invented freedom or something...
The land of the free looks pretty damn oppressive to me.

Slow down there, tiger.  Not sure what you're gettin' worked up about.  I'm not asking you to do anything, and i sure ain't sayn' nothin' 'bout what i'm doing.  Now what did i say to piss you off so much?  That interwebz talk is cheap?  It are a fact.

[XRcode]

We shouldn't even be talking to the government... This is none of their business and it should stay that way.

Did you just say, "money isn't the governments business?"

No, I said bitcoin is not the governments business.. And it clearly isn't.
So who's going to regulate? The US? Well guess what, the rest of the world doesn't give a shit what the US says.

You obviously don't understand what jurisdiction means.  US will regulate Bitcoin within its borders & as it interfaces with US, no different from, say, kiddie pr0nz.  It also may put pressure on other governments to regulate Bitcoin within their borders.  Why did i choose a hot button like child pr0nz?  Because like Bitcoin, its consumption seems impossible to regulate -- it's just a bunch of blips & bloops in da tubez, or data stored on pedo's hard drives.  And yet the party van arrives.

Besides, according to FINCEN...... Well nevermind they are just a bunch of overbearing dictators that have no respect for the constitution, privacy, or any civil rights rights for that matter.
Government attempts to regulate our bitcoins should be met with fierce opposition, and no negotiations.  

If interwebz bravura is what you're talking about, then sure.  IRL?  I doubt it.  If being stripped down to your undies & felt up at the airport when you forget a few coins in your pocket didn't meet with "fierce opposition," i doubt anything will.

You must be a genius! I write C but I don't understand plain English.

Should i feel sorry for you? 

You want to be regulated? go ahead... I for one will never tell any government how many bitcoins I mined, or what I sold them for....
Hell I even take steps to make sure they won't find out even if they come take my computers...
You can TRY to regulate me, and I will simply not co-operate. quite simple.

Would hate to see your code.  Where'd you get the notion that i want to be regulated? 

If the rest of the public took a similar hard line against this shit, we might be getting somewhere.
In reality the only ones that are somewhat forced to answer to the government are the exchanges.
So you go answer to the government while I do the same thing I always did, and always will.

How many times has the constitution been amended to strip you of your freedom and privacy even further?
How many Americans can sit at home in their underwear and play a game of poker on their computer in the land of the FREE?
It's also funny how you see Americans in other parts of the world talking about how they come from the land of the free like they invented freedom or something...
The land of the free looks pretty damn oppressive to me.

Slow down there, tiger.  Not sure what you're gettin' worked up about.  I'm not asking you to do anything, and i sure ain't sayn' nothin' 'bout what i'm doing.  Now what did i say to piss you off so much?  That interwebz talk is cheap?  It are a fact.

You my friend, are an idiot.

[td services]

We shouldn't even be talking to the government... This is none of their business and it should stay that way.

Did you just say, "money isn't the governments business?"

Money is the lifeblood of empire - and the dollar, the pound, the euro, and the yen all have blood poisoning.

There is nothing backing them but faith, and when that faith collapses, it will be hilarious.

[exogan]

Regulation of bitcoin in some sense is inevitable and probably desirable, but it's important to recognize that the only sense in which bitcoin can be realistically regulated has to do with the ways that bitcoin interfaces with the traditional financial system.  So, exchanges, like MtGox, can be compelled to behave in certain ways by the financial regulations of their jurisdictions.  They can be held to standards of accounting and reporting, say, and face fines or interference for not complying.

A unique aspect of bitcoin is that transacting only in the bitcoin ecosystem, away from points of contact with the traditional financial system, is to transact in a system that is pretty strongly resistant to typical top-down regulation from entities like states.  Users can more easily choose whether they operate in the regulated space or the unregulated space.

In a discussion on regulation, I think it's important to make this distinction.  If somebody, like some members of the Foundation, are pro-regulation, it doesn't necessarily mean they believe that bitcoin itself should or will be regulated - it probably just can't be regulated in a practical way.  What they are likely talking about are regulations to do with certain ways that bitcoin comes in contact with traditional financial systems where states already enforce regulations.

Nope nope nope.

[ASICMining]

There's pros and cons to both, but unregulated will always communicate "under the radar" to many legit businesses that want to deal with commercially regulated companies.

[Schrankwand]

There's pros and cons to both, but unregulated will always communicate "under the radar" to many legit businesses that want to deal with commercially regulated companies.

But the problem is: "How do you regulate an international currency nationally?"

[aigeezer]

There's an angle to regulation that had not occurred to me before reading this:

"Regulatory costs are unbudgeted and lack the formal presentation to the public and media to which ordinary federal spending is subject, and thus regulatory initiatives allow the government to direct private-sector resources to a significant degree without much public fuss. In that sense, regulation can be thought of as off-budget taxation."

http://cei.org/10KC

We've obviously noticed that regulated BTC is a potential revenue source for governments, but the piece that I hadn't thought about is the off-budget, no public scrutiny, no legal tests part - FINCEN (for example) issues a guideline, an opinion made from whole cloth, and companies far and wide scurry to comply. Government revenues increase as if by magic. No new laws, no debate, no hassle - easy money, from a government's perspective.