The Writing on the Wall

[oneforall]

I guess one of my points is that both the lovers and the haters of Bitcoin are appealing to logic to support their positions. And both sides have proponents who reason impeccably... and those who reason horribly so it's best to look deeper and broader to examine what it is we're doing.

all any of us can do by surrounding ourselves in this is sharpen out minds.

Absolutely, this is one of the more fascinating inventions I've ever seen.  Also maybe we can find in it something we believe in and put that in our arsenal of things we are actively attempting to will into existence to make the world better/more beautiful/more fair/more fitting with some preconceived notion of the way the world works/whatever...

It's funny, Bitcoin seems to be (or is definitely about to be) one side of what I assume will be an epic battle but in itself it's a huge battleground with so many sides laying claim to it for so many different reasons.

What "logic" does it fly in the face of? I think that there are a million different sets of axioms flying around here and people are using them to derive logics of all sorts which are all necessarily based on faith (including yours and mine)

Insofar that none of the logic is based on anything quantitative, I agree with you. Even if we call it faith, this forum seems to be trouncing one faith in favour of another when there is no reason to do so.

People here have got to see the other side of the coin (no pun intended). If they just want to deny the obvious then that is more likely to lead to this currency's oblivion than anything else.

This forum is starting to sound like the Iraqi Information Minister. In the eyes of the world = laughable.

How far back does this faith go? did satoshi use faith or logic to create something that has allready impacted the entire world so greatly? Faith is what people use when logic looks like to much work for them, this is why you often see faith and hate so often on the same side of an argument.

No, faith is what defines the axioms and logic is how they derive a workable system from their axioms. My guess is Satoshi created the seed of his idea with faith (epiphany?) and used what seems to be an amazing gift of logic to flesh it out into a system that (my faith tells me) will basically blow up the authority structures defined by the previous faith based monetary system. How are faith and logic antitheses to one another? My view is that they are different dimensions of a powerful system (which Satoshi has created).

An axiom is something that is considered obvious, yet is unproven. I don't think that it is evident that at any point there was an aspect of his work that was unproven to him, if he could envision the entire project and then set about to create it, then faith was never involved any more then i have faith that when i combine the ingredients of a cake and stick it in an oven that it will become a cake. I think that by calling part of what he did faith it gives one an excuse to not be able to create something just as amazing oneself, as if he was 'given' something instead of him 'earning' it through sheer hard work. As if he got lucky that his faith was correct and someone else could work just as hard and merely not be lucky because they had 'faith' in the wrong thing. Faith is a roll of the dice, logic creates weighted dice that land the way the creator of the dice wishes. Bitcoin is to wonderful for me to be able to chock it up to luck or chance, it is a carefully planned piece of art work, a machine.

An axiom is what you base your logic on. How far down does logic go? Is it turtles all the way down? Each step being preceded by a perfectly logical step before it, preceded by a perfectly logical step before it etc.

First, we're arguing about what went on inside another person's mind who we have never met before, which is necessarily an argument based on faith.

Second, the turtles all the way down argument: his logic had to have been based on something right? And that something couldn't really be based on logic or else that wouldn't be what the logic was based on but a step in the logical system he created.

Third, why is faith a weakness? He had an idea, however it came to him, he had that idea and then (I assume) he decided it was the right idea and an extremely powerful idea and he didn't doubt himself, or at least he didn't doubt himself to a point that kept him from seeing his idea through to its manifestation in the real world. That takes a huge amount of faith. That is not a crutch but a massively important virtue. Faith and Will are intertwined and without them all the logic in the world won't get you out of bed.

One of the biggest problems right now in our world I think is that people have an unquestioning and unanalyzed religious sense of Logic and Rationality and Science that makes us attribute all sorts of completely unreasonable things to them and to think that important dimensions like morality can be emergent traits of systems as long as these systems follow logical paths.

I thank you both from the bottom of my heart. It is the fact that people like you two exist that make me thrilled to be alive and drive me to fight for what i believe in 
You remind me that I am not alone.

[1714990110]

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[1714990110]

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[makomk]

This isn't the first time mtgox got attacked.  The attack in Oct 2010 was actually far more disruptive than this one because the result was that mtgox users could no longer deposit or withdraw USD for several weeks.

So mtgox got hacked before, but they didn't see it as a reason to implement basic, essential security features and everyone just continued doing business with them? Wow. Don't see how that's a positive thing at all.

[ledskof]

If you think it's dead, stop posting and disappear.

We'll see you down the road.

[QuantumMechanic]

Those who hold the most Bitcoins have created them with computing power, NOT by exchanging them for money. Where was the real capital behind all of this? Before you jump to the "but gold was the same" argument, know that gold had value among the world long before the Goldrush. It's not the same thing, by a mile. This is the fallacy.

The only difference I can see between gold and bitcoins in this regard is that the rate of adoption and associated rise in purchasing power of gold happened very gradually, so being an "early adopter" didn't really mean much, and therefore wasn't a source of envy.

[Silverpike]

Since the media already reported the "crash" from a week ago, they will probably report this too. But it doesn't matter. This hack has nothing to do with bitcoin itself. We have always known things like this are going to happen; the road is going to be "bumpy" as Gavin has said. But bitcoin itself remains secure. The only reason this hack will be a problem is because people will overreact (like Synaptic). But people will calm down in time.

You just don't get it do you?

All of you kiddos have this incestuous love for bitcoins and keep saying that a family that plays together stays together.

Well guess what dude, bitcoin is fucking dead to the eyes of the public now. That's it. What happened today is the end of anything that was going to happen in the wider market.

I'm not over-reacting in the least bit.

See me in a week/month/year and tell me I'm wrong.

99% of the "public" still has no fucking idea what Bitcoin is.  This idea that it's somehow "dead" even though it's userbase is already small is retarded.  As I said in my other thread, this stuff must happen in order for Bitcoin to be viable in the long term.  Bitcoin is still in the experimental stage, and stuff like this is virtually guaranteed to happen.  As long as the community identifies each attack, evaluates the damage, and re-deploys either the Bitcoin code or the support infrastructure (exchanges), then Bitcoin will be fine.

One comment about your friend who dumped his savings into BTC: he was fucked from the start.  BTC is too unstable now to guarantee future value.  You are acting like the Mt. Gox hack was the reason he's going to lose money.  No, the reason he's going to lose his money is because he dumped his savings into an experimental currency system.  I think Bitcoin will succeed, but it may take quite a bit of time for that to happen.

One last thing: this whole Mt. Gox hack is way overblown.  Most of the Mt. Gox internal trade state is being rolled back, and I'm fairly sure 99% of users won't lose any stored value they had with Gox.  I doubt very seriously there will be any real monetary damage from this  hack, aside from the busted pride of a lot of users who were naieve about electronic security.

[FreddyFender]

Bitcoin is part of a meme shift of unparalleled proportions. Information has escaped a draconian stage and everyone who views Bitcoin sees a facet of this newness drawing everyone down the rabbithole. Cavalier attitudes are garnered for the way some profiteers have played their hands, while other attitudes are thinly disguised intent bought and paid for by who knows.
If I told you a little know program developed to be some joke about banks or world finance would devour such feverish attention in a tiny span of time, you would think me daft. Information is coming out of the darkness and into the light. That is what Synaptic was sent here to control.
In this thread there are several handlers that try to drive conversation along well-thought out lines of challenge. Everyone else is just along for the ride. This Dragon is a "methane" dragon full of foul stench and hot upon every challenge. There are plenty of other dragons in other postings. Last Saturday many Moderators had their profiles spoofed as quick clones. I saw Atlas appear as Atas, Alas, _Atlas in a matter of minutes. Me thinks we have professionals that will simply goad serious posters to endless depths and chase newbies off at any cost.
The media fails to cover their own shark-infested comment sections, what makes you think they care about ours?
This is not a battle to be won, the battle was over the minute that a new meme escaped the realm of human thinking. This meme is just the edge of a sword, the strike of a match, the dust of a tempest, and a distant echo of thunder. Weeks of Synap'tick won't change that, so how do you like them apples?

[noedaRDH]

Bitcoin is part of a meme shift of unparalleled proportions. Information has escaped a draconian stage and everyone who views Bitcoin sees a facet of this newness drawing everyone down the rabbithole. Cavalier attitudes are garnered for the way some profiteers have played their hands, while other attitudes are thinly disguised intent bought and paid for by who knows.
If I told you a little know program developed to be some joke about banks or world finance would devour such feverish attention in a tiny span of time, you would think me daft. Information is coming out of the darkness and into the light. That is what Synaptic was sent here to control.
In this thread there are several handlers that try to drive conversation along well-thought out lines of challenge. Everyone else is just along for the ride. This Dragon is a "methane" dragon full of foul stench and hot upon every challenge. There are plenty of other dragons in other postings. Last Saturday many Moderators had their profiles spoofed as quick clones. I saw Atlas appear as Atas, Alas, _Atlas in a matter of minutes. Me thinks we have professionals that will simply goad serious posters to endless depths and chase newbies off at any cost.
The media fails to cover their own shark-infested comment sections, what makes you think they care about ours?
This is not a battle to be won, the battle was over the minute that a new meme escaped the realm of human thinking. This meme is just the edge of a sword, the strike of a match, the dust of a tempest, and a distant echo of thunder. Weeks of Synap'tick won't change that, so how do you like them apples?

Nicely written... though a bit theatrical.

[ironwolf]

I don't care what they say about me, just make sure they spell my name right: B-I-T-C-O-I-N.

[FreddyFender]

Bitcoin is part of a meme shift of unparalleled proportions. Information has escaped a draconian stage and everyone who views Bitcoin sees a facet of this newness drawing everyone down the rabbithole. Cavalier attitudes are garnered for the way some profiteers have played their hands, while other attitudes are thinly disguised intent bought and paid for by who knows.
If I told you a little know program developed to be some joke about banks or world finance would devour such feverish attention in a tiny span of time, you would think me daft. Information is coming out of the darkness and into the light. That is what Synaptic was sent here to control.
In this thread there are several handlers that try to drive conversation along well-thought out lines of challenge. Everyone else is just along for the ride. This Dragon is a "methane" dragon full of foul stench and hot upon every challenge. There are plenty of other dragons in other postings. Last Saturday many Moderators had their profiles spoofed as quick clones. I saw Atlas appear as Atas, Alas, _Atlas in a matter of minutes. Me thinks we have professionals that will simply goad serious posters to endless depths and chase newbies off at any cost.
The media fails to cover their own shark-infested comment sections, what makes you think they care about ours?
This is not a battle to be won, the battle was over the minute that a new meme escaped the realm of human thinking. This meme is just the edge of a sword, the strike of a match, the dust of a tempest, and a distant echo of thunder. Weeks of Synap'tick won't change that, so how do you like them apples?

Nicely written... though a bit theatrical.

Right-brain, thx

[Bit_Happy]

Bitcoin is part of a meme shift of unparalleled proportions. Information has escaped a draconian stage and everyone who views Bitcoin sees a facet of this newness drawing everyone down the rabbithole. Cavalier attitudes are garnered for the way some profiteers have played their hands, while other attitudes are thinly disguised intent bought and paid for by who knows.
If I told you a little know program developed to be some joke about banks or world finance would devour such feverish attention in a tiny span of time, you would think me daft. Information is coming out of the darkness and into the light. That is what Synaptic was sent here to control.
In this thread there are several handlers that try to drive conversation along well-thought out lines of challenge. Everyone else is just along for the ride. This Dragon is a "methane" dragon full of foul stench and hot upon every challenge. There are plenty of other dragons in other postings. Last Saturday many Moderators had their profiles spoofed as quick clones. I saw Atlas appear as Atas, Alas, _Atlas in a matter of minutes. Me thinks we have professionals that will simply goad serious posters to endless depths and chase newbies off at any cost.
The media fails to cover their own shark-infested comment sections, what makes you think they care about ours?
This is not a battle to be won, the battle was over the minute that a new meme escaped the realm of human thinking. This meme is just the edge of a sword, the strike of a match, the dust of a tempest, and a distant echo of thunder. Weeks of Synap'tick won't change that, so how do you like them apples?

My instincts are good enough to suspect that is true, but wasn't sure if "they" really work that way. Propaganda and "mind-control" are really powerful, so I suppose you could very well be correct.

[thebitcoinchannel]

LOL. Why are you even here? I've never been involved with something that causes so many people to come out against it. For some strange reason this reinforces my trust in Bitcoin more than any dollar figure.

Who registers for a website to try and convince others that what they are doing is going to fail? What in god's name is wrong with you people?

trolls and shills.  Google Jon Nadler

[nickwit]

Well... I sold my first product for bitcoins back in about April....

... and I've seen ups / downs, comings / goings, histrionic-over-confidence / panicked sell-offs...


... and if there's one thing I've learned from all this, it's this: Nobody knows what the fuck they're talking about


So doom-sayers gonna doom-say / Evangelistas envangelize... Me? I have about 100 BTC and I'm hanging on to them... and I'll carry on selling things for bitcoins.


You didn't actually think setting up a global alternative-currency was going to be an advent-free experiment did you? Support it. It's worth it - and we've got a long way to go yet.

[paulie_w]

... and if there's one thing I've learned from all this, it's this: Nobody knows what the fuck they're talking about

hear, hear!

[oneforall]

Bitcoin is part of a meme shift of unparalleled proportions. Information has escaped a draconian stage and everyone who views Bitcoin sees a facet of this newness drawing everyone down the rabbithole. Cavalier attitudes are garnered for the way some profiteers have played their hands, while other attitudes are thinly disguised intent bought and paid for by who knows.
If I told you a little know program developed to be some joke about banks or world finance would devour such feverish attention in a tiny span of time, you would think me daft. Information is coming out of the darkness and into the light. That is what Synaptic was sent here to control.
In this thread there are several handlers that try to drive conversation along well-thought out lines of challenge. Everyone else is just along for the ride. This Dragon is a "methane" dragon full of foul stench and hot upon every challenge. There are plenty of other dragons in other postings. Last Saturday many Moderators had their profiles spoofed as quick clones. I saw Atlas appear as Atas, Alas, _Atlas in a matter of minutes. Me thinks we have professionals that will simply goad serious posters to endless depths and chase newbies off at any cost.
The media fails to cover their own shark-infested comment sections, what makes you think they care about ours?
This is not a battle to be won, the battle was over the minute that a new meme escaped the realm of human thinking. This meme is just the edge of a sword, the strike of a match, the dust of a tempest, and a distant echo of thunder. Weeks of Synap'tick won't change that, so how do you like them apples?

Plus Uno!

[Noam]

I don't think this is a fatal blow. Bad press is still publicity. In three months, or a year, all that will matter is that the name bitcoin got out, not what exactly happened.

+1 Bingo!

[Synaptic]

I don't think this is a fatal blow. Bad press is still publicity. In three months, or a year, all that will matter is that the name bitcoin got out, not what exactly happened.

+1 Bingo!

Yeah, merchants are all going to be like "Bitcoin? Yeah I remember a bunch of negative publicity about that while back...or, was it positive publicity?  Oh, who cares now, let's use it! Seems like a great idea!"

[Noam]

I don't think this is a fatal blow. Bad press is still publicity. In three months, or a year, all that will matter is that the name bitcoin got out, not what exactly happened.

+1 Bingo!

Yeah, merchants are all going to be like "Bitcoin? Yeah I remember a bunch of negative publicity about that while back...or, was it positive publicity?  Oh, who cares now, let's use it! Seems like a great idea!"

Synaptic - Do you only make use of products and services that have zero problems and/or criticism since the date they were created? That must feel so good... I can't do that, so I need to kinda look ahead and imagine BTC's ability to improve and win people over because of its advantages...

[1.21gigawatts]

Synaptic only likes to bitch because he's mad that he bought 10 btc at $32 and bought his mining equipment on newegg which he is returning today.  He no longer has a horse in the race and will just keep coming back as a troll to prove to everyone that he was right to buy high and sell low and that he was right on canceling his mining order from newegg without a restocking fee

[foggyb]

Fortunately I disposed of all 10 of them on Mt. Gox just last night on a hunch that some kinda shit was going to happen.

I'm pretty insightful that way.

Cheers.

My bullshit detector is going crazy right now.

[Synaptic]

Fortunately I disposed of all 10 of them on Mt. Gox just last night on a hunch that some kinda shit was going to happen.

I'm pretty insightful that way.

Cheers.

My bullshit detector is going crazy right now.

Synaptic only likes to bitch because he's mad that he bought 10 btc at $32 and bought his mining equipment on newegg which he is returning today.  He no longer has a horse in the race and will just keep coming back as a troll to prove to everyone that he was right to buy high and sell low and that he was right on canceling his mining order from newegg without a restocking fee

Never spent a cent on BTC besides hardware.

The address I used to xfer to mtgox was 13fS2WLY658KgXJHZDwSoVENRfdTyG3trJ

So girls, sally up your sweet, sweet puffy lips cause daddy's got present for you.