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Author Topic: WARNING! Bitcoin will soon block small transaction outputs  (Read 56692 times)
bigbeninlondon
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May 06, 2013, 01:58:31 AM
 #161

Isn't this a bitcoind exclusive setup?  Isn't that all Gavin is responsible for?  Can't other clients still publish no fee tx's to the network?  Why is everyone so doom and gloom about bitcoin in general?  This is just one release of a bitcoin wallet, amirite?
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jdillon
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May 06, 2013, 01:59:29 AM
 #162

Just a thought (not intended in opposition to this change, which is a band-aid that's obviously better than the status quo):

Maybe it would be better off just to allow people to pay a fee and create transactions with zero-value outputs. People seem to want to use the network to send messages, and like email spam this is an economic problem that can't be entirely solved by technical means, because the difference between a message and a payment is the user's intent, which can't be detected by software.

Am I right in thinking that unlike a 1-satoshi output, a zero-value output doesn't have to be forever stored by miners? If so, isn't that better than the status quo before this patch, which is producing gazillions of 1-satoshi outputs that have to be stored forever, and the probable status quo a little bit after this patch, where people carry on sending their messages by creating whatever other output they can get away with?

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script#Provably_Unspendable.2FPrunable_Outputs

Not yet supported, but it could be in the future if the developers decide to.
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May 06, 2013, 02:01:27 AM
 #163

So, a hardcoded magic number has been made configurable. Except most do not like the new default magic number. Technically I see that as an improvement. Developers are giving you more control. If it is such a big issue, won't the market decide what the best configuration is?

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May 06, 2013, 02:02:39 AM
 #164

You idiots know it's just a default setting that can be changed, right?

You can just change this in the config, and connect to a few nodes in pools that accept non-standard tx's.
+1

Knock yourselves out, no fork needed, just add this to your bitcoin.conf and convince a few big miners or mining pools to do the same:

    minrelaytxfee=0


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May 06, 2013, 02:02:46 AM
 #165

Isn't this a bitcoind exclusive setup?  Isn't that all Gavin is responsible for?  Can't other clients still publish no fee tx's to the network?  Why is everyone so doom and gloom about bitcoin in general?  This is just one release of a bitcoin wallet, amirite?

But you are required a bitcoind for mining so yeah. Don't let anyone fool you Gavin has control of all of bitcoin.

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May 06, 2013, 02:05:31 AM
 #166

People seem to want to use the network to send messages,
Even prunable data results in perpetual storage.  We've talked in the past at adding messaging, not because it belongs in Bitcoin (in fact it has very high costs and serious risks) but because it would deflect some of the transaction messaging stuff which is even worse... but that would do nothing to address the fact that some people wise to use data packed in transactions to coerce Bitcoin users to store data for them against their wishes— someone trying to do that won't use a kinder alternative voluntarily.

Quote from: Omen1855
Except most do not like the new default magic number.
I think your sampling of people with bright orange ignore indicators on Bitcointalk may not be the most representative sample. Tongue But indeed, its configurable.

Bitcoin will not be compromised
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May 06, 2013, 02:05:37 AM
 #167

So, a hardcoded magic number has been made configurable. Except most do not like the new default magic number.

Yes.  Though I argue that most are just not familiar with the system, and reacting without learning.

As it currently stands, the new default magic number is lower than in prior versions.  So fees are getting lowered -- and user configurable to be easily lowered again (or raised, if that is what the user desires).



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May 06, 2013, 02:09:26 AM
 #168

Luckily, the solution is obvious: blockchain pruning.
Pruning reduces historic data, it doesn't reduce the unspent transactions outputs— they could be spent at any time so you need a ultimately trusted copy of them in order to validate a block you receive (and prevent theft and inflation). Part of the problem with people cramming data in 1e-8 value txouts— which are completely and forever unspendable, but not in a way which can be machine detected— is that it increases the size of the data which cannot ever be pruned.

Bitcoin will not be compromised
finway
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May 06, 2013, 02:12:45 AM
 #169

Read through the threads and pullreq, i support this change.

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May 06, 2013, 02:15:06 AM
 #170

I agree with this we need to fork, bitcoin was once known for the small transactions, and they want to take that away. Gavin has an ego and it needs to be taken under control. This is ridiculous this is a fix because they don't want to spend time trying to fix the bloat of the blockchain thru censorship!

I think we need to ask ourselves if Bitcoin will be a small transaction currency in the future or if it will be the backbone of a new future financial system in which the regular user rarely interacts with the blockchain directly.

That said, rather then fork- why not devise an alt-coin or use bitcoin testnet coins for this?


Your talking about something maybe in 25-50 years from now could happen. Today I want to send a penny if I use 0.8.2 I can't. IT IS CENSORSHIP. THE FOUNDATION IS ALL ABOUT CENSORSHIP!!!! GAVIN IS A DICTATOR OF BITCOIN. SATOSHI WOULD CRY RIGHT NOW!!! THE DEV TEAM CAN"T EVEN CODE THERE WAY OUT OF A PAPER BAG, THEY ARE USELESS. I am sick of them, the community is sick of them, it is time to cut them out of the power positions they have created for them self. If you believe that your correct go update, but trust me it starts with little changes like this and next thing you know your silk road addresses are block, then other things. GAVIN IS A POWER HUNGRY GREEDY PERSON, I SAW THIS FROM DAY ONE OF THE FOUNDATION. I HAVE BEEN RIGHT THE WHOLE WAY DOWN TO THIS.


OVER THROW THE DEV TEAM, THEY CAN"T HANDLE THE POWER THEY HAVE!

Even with caps, Quote worthy. I thought exactly the same and was not sure how to express it. Who gave them the power? Are they even proved as good enough programmers? This should not be allowed with the main client the vast majority is using. Not at all. Community raise.
David M
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May 06, 2013, 02:19:39 AM
 #171

I just read through the entire thread and support links...

My first impression (without any research) was WTF!!

After some reading it dawned on me.

No blockchain changes.
No forcing of the version on clients (or miners) who still want satoshi sized transactions.
The change is client configurable.

I don't see an issue.
Daily Anarchist
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May 06, 2013, 02:22:12 AM
 #172

I just read through the entire thread and support links...

My first impression (without any research) was WTF!!

After some reading it dawned on me.

No blockchain changes.
No forcing of the version on clients (or miners) who still want satoshi sized transactions.
The change is client configurable.

I don't see an issue.


If this isn't a protocol change, but merely a CLIENT change, then this is essentially a non-issue. If we ( and I include myself in this) don't like it, then it should incentivize us to create competing bitcoin clients. And ultimately, Gavin says that's what he wants. Perhaps he knows that this issue will piss off a lot of people and inspire them to start an alternate client to the QT.


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jgarzik
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May 06, 2013, 02:23:40 AM
 #173

If this isn't a protocol change, but merely a CLIENT change, then this is essentially a non-issue.

This is not a protocol change.

This is a client change.


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Daily Anarchist
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May 06, 2013, 02:27:47 AM
 #174

If this isn't a protocol change, but merely a CLIENT change, then this is essentially a non-issue.

This is not a protocol change.

This is a client change.



Thank you for clarifying that. While I still strongly dislike the move, I retract my earlier statements about not upgrading. Hopefully this will inspire a new team of devs to create a competing client with the QT.

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bitcoiners
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May 06, 2013, 02:39:48 AM
 #175

You idiots know it's just a default setting that can be changed, right?

You can just change this in the config, and connect to a few nodes in pools that accept non-standard tx's.
+1

Knock yourselves out, no fork needed, just add this to your bitcoin.conf and convince a few big miners or mining pools to do the same:

    minrelaytxfee=0



Wow dude, you are a fucking Nazi.  Do as I say BITCOIN!

I'm done here if this change is made.  No one dictates what I should or shouldn't send.  I don't give a fuck who you are.
pekv2
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May 06, 2013, 02:41:39 AM
 #176

But you are defending something only the bitcoin "millionaires" want.  So far the majority of the bitcoin world is against this if you check the other post/poll in this sub and the votes.  I don't care if it's permanent or not.  Transaction size should not be limited. Period.

This is exactly how I feel about this change, when and if it occurs. Cutting poor man out. This actually makes my skin crawl.

This is a fundamental change of Bitcoin, and really seems to go against the idea of freedom of financial transactions.  Now, we will be regulated to only sending transactions of a certain size.  No free market choice here...

Bleh.

This

Agreed.

Big Banks > US Government > Gavin...

This whole thing stinks of high shit.
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May 06, 2013, 02:46:26 AM
 #177

You idiots know it's just a default setting that can be changed, right?

You can just change this in the config, and connect to a few nodes in pools that accept non-standard tx's.
+1

Knock yourselves out, no fork needed, just add this to your bitcoin.conf and convince a few big miners or mining pools to do the same:

    minrelaytxfee=0



Wow dude, you are a fucking Nazi.  Do as I say BITCOIN!

I'm done here if this change is made.  No one dictates what I should or shouldn't send.  I don't give a fuck who you are.

There is absolutely no need for personal abuse.

Gavin is doing the best job in what is becoming a very challenging role. He has the support of all of the thinking devs who understand the issues on this change. As far as I can tell, this is the best move possible in the circumstances (noone is all knowing), and timely also.

Chin up Gavin, try to tune out the unthinking mobocracy .... we'll get there in the end.

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May 06, 2013, 02:47:59 AM
 #178

You idiots know it's just a default setting that can be changed, right?

You can just change this in the config, and connect to a few nodes in pools that accept non-standard tx's.
+1

Knock yourselves out, no fork needed, just add this to your bitcoin.conf and convince a few big miners or mining pools to do the same:

    minrelaytxfee=0



Wow dude, you are a fucking Nazi.  Do as I say BITCOIN!

I'm done here if this change is made.  No one dictates what I should or shouldn't send.  I don't give a fuck who you are.

There is absolutely no need for personal abuse.

Gavin is doing the best job in what is a very challenging role. He has the support of all of the thinking devs who understand the issues on this change. As far as I can tell, this is the best move possible in the circumstances (noone is all knowing), and timely also.

Chin up Gavin, try to tune out the unthinking mobocracy .... we'll get there in the end.


Gavin just a couple questions?

How much were you paid by the FEDS?  Was it enough?  You want to regulate bitcoin?  Fuck this.
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May 06, 2013, 02:48:49 AM
 #179

But you are defending something only the bitcoin "millionaires" want.  So far the majority of the bitcoin world is against this if you check the other post/poll in this sub and the votes.  I don't care if it's permanent or not.  Transaction size should not be limited. Period.

This is exactly how I feel about this change, when and if it occurs. Cutting poor man out. This actually makes my skin crawl.

You know this only affects transactions < 1 cent? Surely you understand that. How many fiat transactions have you ever done for less than 1 cent?
How many poor people would throw away a 1 cent coin? How many beggars would spit at you for tossing them a 1 cent coin?

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May 06, 2013, 02:49:44 AM
 #180

I fully understand all of the issues involved and from my own point of view Gavin, Jeff, and Greg are doing an amazing job dealing with the unwashed masses of the Bitcoin public regarding these and other issues. Everything so far has been sensible and they deserve a ton of praise for treating the protocol and the software with utmost respect, professionalism, and rigor.

They could ignore the rabble of voices but instead choose to be vocal and open about their rationale, coming to the forum to explain everything that is going on and keeping records of all the deliberations. If only the Bitcoin Foundation was run as well.


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