POLL: Will Avalon Batch 3 or raw ASIC Chips ship first?

[botlove]

It would be a travesty if chips shipped first.   That would not be a good move on their part being that Batch 3 was ordered "before" the chips.  

i totally agree

how much time passed between batch 3 sales and the bulk chip sales?  In my opinion, that number is the MINIMUM amount of time that should pass after the last batch 3 unit is delivered , until the FIRST bulk chip order is delivered.   I'm guessing that's about 2.5 months.

/EDIT:   This issue is not as significant when you compare the relative processing power of batch 2 versus batch 3, and therefore batch 3 doesn't absolutely need to be delayed as much as the chips.  but the chips, when shipped, will devastate the ROI on the customers of batch 3....... there's a big difference... so let's not even start comparing the delay of batch 2 / batch 3 delivery to the delay of the bulk chip delivery.....

[1714997422]

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[1714997422]

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[ecliptic]

If the chips ship first, which is possible since they do not requiring any assembly, they still won't be running and online for some time after that.

A lot of people serious about it will have the chips running 24-48 hours after receiving them

(Not the ones shipping them back and forth to get them assembled)

I guarantee there will be many people who will be up and mining within a day of receiving their chips.

I'd love to hit within 24 hours for all the chips, but I'd prefer to play it safe, eat a day or two loss and run a test batch of 2-4 for 24 or 48 hours.  I wouldn't be surprised if all the big orders do this

[tempestb]

I like how Avalon takes months to build their miners, but you guys can do the same job in 48 hours. 

[Kartaiv]

I like how Avalon takes months to build their miners, but you guys can do the same job in 48 hours. 

Exactly why I didn't bother replying.

[emanymton]

I like how Avalon takes months to build their miners, but you guys can do the same job in 48 hours. 

Since we already have the designs from avalon or possibly another open source project, pcb's can be fabricated in advance.
This just leaves the final step of having the asics attached to the boards once they arrive.
If you have access to a company with quick turnaround there's no reason why this isn't possible.

[ecliptic]

I like how Avalon takes months to build their miners, but you guys can do the same job in 48 hours. 

How long do you think it takes to design a product from scratch versus build it from already existing drawings and specifications (or slightly modified ones)?

It's the difference between designing a new Smartphone and producing one when it is in full production

[TheSwede75]

Chips will ship within a week or two, anything that requires assembly and testing after this.

[dan99]

chip comes first, their priority is selling chip

[TheSwede75]

In all fairness I think no one here can really be sure how the avalon 'business model' looks. Considering they are taking several order a DAY for the chip-only 10k batches @ currently over $100.000 I would probably argue that it is likely that their margin and profit off the chips alone is far higher then the more labor and component intensive miners.

This would also explain their 'rush to market' with the chip only orders.

Of course, another factor would be any sign that the BFL patented (?) 28nm chips are about to go to market as chip only orders as well. This would definintely shake up the market as they at least theoretically would absolutely crush the current avalon design in GH/s per watt and space.

[TheSwede75]

Don't forget batch 4 and/or 5, if they decide to do them.

They will not ship chips until they sell batch #4 or #5.

The idea of selling chips was to decentralize the network, but ASICMiner is selling (and delivering) their products like hotcakes so the urgency
of decentralization has kinda diminished.

I bet the chip delivery is at the bottom of their "to do" list.

There is a reason this absolutely crazy opinion is not listed as a choice. Why in the world would they ship chips AFTER something that hasn't even be announced yet? Please use your brain.

[K1773R]

raw ASIC Chips

ROFL

[wrenchmonkey]

These people saying that shipping chips before completed miners "breaks the first rule of business" have almost certainly never owned or operated a business. NO BUSINESS holds back later, simpler, orders while waiting to fill more complex orders.

For example, one of my businesses that I own builds rifles. We sub-contract all of the machine work, and do assembly in house. We also sell individual components. If I have somebody order a complete custom-built rifle today, and somebody orders an individual part (or batch of individual parts), should I sit on order #2 until after I've built and shipped order #1?

Well, it takes me 5 minutes to ship out an item already on the shelf, so naturally, I can ship it same day. I might be waiting on other parts for the rifle, or it might just take me a while to assemble the complete rifle, either way, I'm not going to sit on a simple order for a week, just because somebody else ordered a more complex order the day before. If I have enough parts on the shelf to fill the second order, without further delaying the 1st, one will be set aside for the custom build, and the other one goes out. End of story.

The chips don't require any assembly, they will come straight from the forge, and require nothing more than slapping a shipping label on them, and sending them out the door.

Now, they certainly shouldn't ship chips that would be required to complete batch 3, to chip orders. But if 100,000 chips come in from the forge, and only 10,000 are needed for batch 3. They would be out of their minds to do anything besides slap labels on the remaining 90,000 chips, and get them out the door, while they work on assembly of batch 3.

As to the people who don't think it's possible for individuals to have miners online within 48 hours, I think you have a lot to learn. There will be miners online within 6 hours of receipt of chips. I can pretty much guarantee it.

On the other side of that coin, there will be chips that will NEVER hash a single nonce. Thus is the nature of the DIY community...

[Bitcoinorama]

If chip goes first, that means Avalon breaks the basic rule of business. It will make them lost trust to any customers or pontential customers in future.

Didn't you hear? They weren't even interested in being a business in the first place.

Ridiculous! If so, how you define "selling chips"? Charity or donation?

Read the article. It answers that question and others.

Have you any idea how much profit they are making on those chips, for guys that 'don't want to be in business'? An ASIC costs between $0.50 and $2 in mass production. Obviously the more volume ordered and less complex, the cheaper. Economies of Scale. That's a tidy little profit of 500-2000% per chip for someone who's so shy about being in a business. Again that's 5-20x cost value to them. They have no more non recurring engineering costs.

Batch 3 has to ship first, they owe it to those that took the leap of faith and have away their funds before the chips were announced. To be fair that's an area of customer service I do feel they excel at. Prioritising those that trusted them earlier. Those guys paid like 4-5 times as much as the inital order cost as well.

[wrenchmonkey]

If chip goes first, that means Avalon breaks the basic rule of business. It will make them lost trust to any customers or pontential customers in future.

Didn't you hear? They weren't even interested in being a business in the first place.

Ridiculous! If so, how you define "selling chips"? Charity or donation?

Read the article. It answers that question and others.

Have you any idea how much profit they are making on those chips, for guys that 'don't want to be in business'? An ASIC costs between $0.50 and $2 in mass production. Obviously the more volume ordered and less complex, the cheaper. Economies of Scale. That's a tidy little profit of 500-2000% per chip for someone who's so shy about being in a business. Again that's 5-20x cost value to them. They have no more non recurring engineering costs.

Batch 3 has to ship first, they owe it to those that took the leap of faith and have away their funds before the chips were announced. To be fair that's an area of customer service I do feel they excel at. Prioritising those that trusted them earlier. Those guys paid like 4-5 times as much as the inital order cost as well.

Leap of faith? What leap of faith is required to order a proven design, after 2 previous batches? Something tells me you have a batch 3 order, and your wishful thinking is overpowering your common sense.

There's not one single reason to delay filling chip orders, UNLESS doing so would delay filling the miner orders. As I said, if they were to ship out chips that are needed to fill batch 3, that would be unfair. But once the chips are in hand, and assembly is the only delay, sitting on orders that have been bought and paid for, that they have the capability to fill is foolish and bad business.

Full disclosure: I'm in on two group buys for bare chips, so I do have a vested interest in them running their business with some common sense, rather than bending to the pressure of the whiners who think they deserve special treatment, and a head start on mining, by virtue of their "faith" (speculation).

[Bitcoinorama]

If chip goes first, that means Avalon breaks the basic rule of business. It will make them lost trust to any customers or pontential customers in future.

Didn't you hear? They weren't even interested in being a business in the first place.

Ridiculous! If so, how you define "selling chips"? Charity or donation?

Read the article. It answers that question and others.

Have you any idea how much profit they are making on those chips, for guys that 'don't want to be in business'? An ASIC costs between $0.50 and $2 in mass production. Obviously the more volume ordered and less complex, the cheaper. Economies of Scale. That's a tidy little profit of 500-2000% per chip for someone who's so shy about being in a business. Again that's 5-20x cost value to them. They have no more non recurring engineering costs.

Batch 3 has to ship first, they owe it to those that took the leap of faith and have away their funds before the chips were announced. To be fair that's an area of customer service I do feel they excel at. Prioritising those that trusted them earlier. Those guys paid like 4-5 times as much as the inital order cost as well.

Leap of faith? What leap of faith is required to order a proven design, after 2 previous batches? Something tells me you have a batch 3 order, and your wishful thinking is overpowering your common sense.

There's not one single reason to delay filling chip orders, UNLESS doing so would delay filling the miner orders. As I said, if they were to ship out chips that are needed to fill batch 3, that would be unfair. But once the chips are in hand, and assembly is the only delay, sitting on orders that have been bought and paid for, that they have the capability to fill is foolish and bad business.

Full disclosure: I'm in on two group buys for bare chips, so I do have a vested interest in them running their business with some common sense, rather than bending to the pressure of the whiners who think they deserve special treatment, and a head start on mining, by virtue of their "faith" (speculation).

I have no batch three order. But having seen your behaviour on other threads I'm well aware how selfish you are.

Had Avalon stated they were selling bulk chips before Batch 3, those that purchased batch 3 would have probably bought chips. The time between the two announcements was under a month.

And yes leap of faith; as in batch 1 hadn't finished shipping, batch 2 had been delayed by that point, and batch 3 was promised by now at 4-5x cost of either of the previous batches. The price involved was due to the tech being proven. Delivery hadn't been, and still hasn't. And you DO want them to have that sorted before they send out multiple customer orders in the guise of single unit of 10,000 chips a piece...

[wrenchmonkey]

If chip goes first, that means Avalon breaks the basic rule of business. It will make them lost trust to any customers or pontential customers in future.

Didn't you hear? They weren't even interested in being a business in the first place.

Ridiculous! If so, how you define "selling chips"? Charity or donation?

Read the article. It answers that question and others.

Have you any idea how much profit they are making on those chips, for guys that 'don't want to be in business'? An ASIC costs between $0.50 and $2 in mass production. Obviously the more volume ordered and less complex, the cheaper. Economies of Scale. That's a tidy little profit of 500-2000% per chip for someone who's so shy about being in a business. Again that's 5-20x cost value to them. They have no more non recurring engineering costs.

Batch 3 has to ship first, they owe it to those that took the leap of faith and have away their funds before the chips were announced. To be fair that's an area of customer service I do feel they excel at. Prioritising those that trusted them earlier. Those guys paid like 4-5 times as much as the inital order cost as well.

Leap of faith? What leap of faith is required to order a proven design, after 2 previous batches? Something tells me you have a batch 3 order, and your wishful thinking is overpowering your common sense.

There's not one single reason to delay filling chip orders, UNLESS doing so would delay filling the miner orders. As I said, if they were to ship out chips that are needed to fill batch 3, that would be unfair. But once the chips are in hand, and assembly is the only delay, sitting on orders that have been bought and paid for, that they have the capability to fill is foolish and bad business.

Full disclosure: I'm in on two group buys for bare chips, so I do have a vested interest in them running their business with some common sense, rather than bending to the pressure of the whiners who think they deserve special treatment, and a head start on mining, by virtue of their "faith" (speculation).

I have no batch three order. But having seen your behaviour on other threads I'm well aware how selfish you are.

Had Avalon stated they were selling bulk chips before Batch 3, those that purchased batch 3 would have probably bought chips. The time between the two announcements was under a month.

And yes leap of faith; as in batch 1 hadn't finished shipping, batch 2 had been delayed by that point, and batch 3 was promised by now at 4-5x cost of either of the previous batches. The price involved was due to the tech being proven. Delivery hadn't been, and still hasn't. And you DO want them to have that sorted before they send out multiple customer orders in the guise of single unit of 10,000 chips a piece...

LOL! Selfish? OK, whatever, as I said, it's glaringly apparent that you have never run a business. Shipping orders that you have the capability to immediately ship (unless it would alter your delivery time on earlier order) is just good business.

Do you expect Amazon to stop shipping all orders, any time somebody places an order for a backordered item? "Sorry folks, we can't ship your orders, because Bubbah here ordered a singing fish, and those are on backorder for the next six weeks, we'd love to keep shipping orders, but we want to be fair to our customers, and Bitcoinorama says that's the only way..."

Get real. You ship orders as quickly as you're able to fill them. You don't accrue a backlog of shippable orders, just because other orders are going to take longer to fill.

[Kartaiv]

Had Avalon stated they were selling bulk chips before Batch 3, those that purchased batch 3 would have probably bought chips. The time between the two announcements was under a month.

Actually, IIRC, Avalon did say they were going to sell chips at that point (if you read their website FAQ), they just didn't give any details (when, cost, quantities, etc).

[jspielberg]

From the horse's mouth:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=240189.msg2562419#msg2562419

Looks like "by early July the chips that were ordered when we opened orders should be out the door by then"

So... if Batch 2 doesn't finish mass shipment in the next week... it is possible that chips could ship even before B2 is complete.

Good for chip purchasers... but a bit rough for B3-ers.

[HorseRider]

Yifu Guo offers refunding option for the Batch #3 orders.

[Wayne_Chang]

Yifu Guo offers refunding option for the Batch #3 orders.

So it means the trust, patience and time of batch#3 customers worth a piece of shit. Correct?