CoinMarketCap.com - Market Cap Rankings of All Cryptocurrencies!

[Prosperityforall]

If the premine category is strictly 'before launch'. Then adding a new filter list category such as "Significantly FastMined" or "Instamine" would be far better suited.

This is one of the reasons why many newcommers may lose money when first getting into crypto from all the scams and etc. Clearly seperating the coins that have had their core parameters messed with after launch to give an unfair advantage to very early miners, from the coins that stayed true to Satoshi's word and never touched the core parameters should be necessary.

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[smooth]

If the premine category is strictly 'before launch'. Then adding a new filter list category such as "Significantly FastMined" or "Instamine" would be far better suited.

This is one of the reasons why many newcommers may lose money when first getting into crypto from all the scams and etc. Clearly seperating the coins that have had their core parameters messed with after launch to give an unfair advantage to very early miners, from the coins that stayed true to Satoshi's word and never touched the core parameters should be necessary.

I don't really see a difference between a large number of coins mined one hour before launch and one hour after launch. It's ultimately, for people researching the coin the same thing: highly front loaded distribution.

So I think if you are going to note premines you should note instamines. It does't really matter whether they are marked the same way or a different way. It makes no sense to mark one but not the other.

[generalizethis]

Do you list premines as a service to potential investors so as they don't make investment decisions based on zero-knowledge of an unfair coin launch? And isn't an instamine a similarly unfair launch as it has the same effect of giving devs (and friends of devs) too much centralization/power over the project? Isn't this worth noting?

This doesn't even take into account coins that were fairly launched having to share the stage with those that didn't--this is very reminiscent of the steroid scandal in baseball, where players who weren't taking performance enhancing drugs had their accomplishments overshadowed (and sometimes tainted)  by those that were cheating.

[illodin]

Do you list premines as a service to potential investors so as they don't make investment decisions based on zero-knowledge of an unfair coin launch? And isn't an instamine a similarly unfair launch as it has the same effect of giving devs (and friends of devs) too much centralization/power over the project? Isn't this worth noting?

This doesn't even take into account coins that were fairly launched having to share the stage with those that didn't--this is very reminiscent of the steroid scandal in baseball, where players who weren't taking performance enhancing drugs had their accomplishments overshadowed (and sometimes tainted)  by those that were cheating.

I think coinmarketcap should warn potential investors about coins that have devs with little coins and hence little financial interest in developing the project.

[illodin]

-I refused to read the answer to that question, so I have to keep asking to make it look like I'm right and fluffypony is wrong-

By means of a direct comparison, where Dash's average block reward for the first 4500 blocks was 443 Dash, and 33.5 Dash on average thereafter, let's look at Monero's.

For the first 4500 blocks (like an hour and a bit) the block reward was 17.5 XMR. The average block reward for the 12+ months thereafter is 13.7 XMR.

Do you see the dichotomy?

Wait, are you saying XMR was mined 4500 blocks in the first hour? 4500 * 17.5 = 78,750 XMR, which is worth of 78 BTC using the first weeks' OTC price.

Or did I get some of the numbers wrong.

Could someone please verify/invalidate the numbers above?

Invalid

Coin launch and the first few blocks were 2014-04-18 10:49:53:

http://moneroblocks.eu/search/1

Block 4500 was three days later 2014-04-21 09:36:22:

http://moneroblocks.eu/search/4500

Thanks for the correction. I think the expression "like an hour and a bit" threw me off, could be a language barrier I'm not native English speaker. 

[generalizethis]

Do you list premines as a service to potential investors so as they don't make investment decisions based on zero-knowledge of an unfair coin launch? And isn't an instamine a similarly unfair launch as it has the same effect of giving devs (and friends of devs) too much centralization/power over the project? Isn't this worth noting?

This doesn't even take into account coins that were fairly launched having to share the stage with those that didn't--this is very reminiscent of the steroid scandal in baseball, where players who weren't taking performance enhancing drugs had their accomplishments overshadowed (and sometimes tainted)  by those that were cheating.

I think coinmarketcap should warn potential investors about coins that have devs with little coins and hence little financial interest in developing the project.

How do you measure human interest mathematically? Instamines can be shown pretty easily. Now if your inferring (incorrectly) that all humans are motivated by greed, I suggest you study differing personalities. Here's a good start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_cognitive_functions

Also, satiated individuals work less often times, so there really isn't a correlation between wealth achieved and future wealth created--it may even work inversely in some cases, so there's that.

Sorry we all don't fit your cynical world view, but what can you do about it except project your own greed and try to normalize the asocial behavior of your associates--


Where is your argument that I'm incorrect? I'm motivated by being right, so if you're trying to get at me, you might want to try harder at being correct. Have you refuted that dash is an instamine? Have you made a case that an instamine is much different in effect than a premine?

[illodin]

How do you measure human interest mathematically? Instamines can be shown pretty easily. Now if your inferring (incorrectly) that all humans are motivated by greed, I suggest you study differing personalities. Here's a good start: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_cognitive_functions

I suggest you study common sense. Obviously people exist who don't care about or even hate money, it's just more likely that when people have also the financial incentive they are more motivated to see the project succeed. Or are you denying that?

Investors like probabilities btw.

[generalizethis]

How do you measure human interest mathematically? Instamines can be shown pretty easily. Now if your inferring (incorrectly) that all humans are motivated by greed, I suggest you study differing personalities. Here's a good start: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_cognitive_functions

I suggest you study common sense. Obviously people exist who don't care about or even hate money, it's just more likely that when people have also the financial incentive they are more motivated to see the project succeed. Or are you denying that?

Investors like probabilities btw.

My guess is that there are more idealist and rationals in the top-end of this field (at least as far as devs are concerned) than there are guardians and artisans, so your assumption defies common sense when taking this into account and the fact that most theoretical thinkers are motivated by other things than cash. Your assumption would hold true in many fields, but when it comes to the crossroads of mathematics, cryptography and computer science i think most will agree that it is especially top heavy with rationals and idealist. Of course I'm sure scams are heavy with opportunistic artisans, but I hardly think they count when we are discussing serious projects, because isn't that exactly the behavior we are trying to mitigate by having correct and honest labels for coins listed on CCM?

And again, where is your argument that dash wasn't instamined and that somehow an instamine doesn't have the same negative impact as a premine? These questions would seem more on topic.

[Prosperityforall]

Coinmarketcap should at least add a new filter option for Instamined currencies like Dash. The definition of a instamine would be where the coin's actual core parameters were changed after launch to benefit early miners.

Similar to a premine except that it occured slightly after launch. Leaving a coin like Dash with other regular coins that never had such fraudelent or incompetant instamines is wholly unfair.

Crosspost:https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=560138.new#new

[fluffypony]

-I refused to read the answer to that question, so I have to keep asking to make it look like I'm right and fluffypony is wrong-

By means of a direct comparison, where Dash's average block reward for the first 4500 blocks was 443 Dash, and 33.5 Dash on average thereafter, let's look at Monero's.

For the first 4500 blocks (like an hour and a bit) the block reward was 17.5 XMR. The average block reward for the 12+ months thereafter is 13.7 XMR.

Do you see the dichotomy?

Wait, are you saying XMR was mined 4500 blocks in the first hour? 4500 * 17.5 = 78,750 XMR, which is worth of 78 BTC using the first weeks' OTC price.

Or did I get some of the numbers wrong.

Could someone please verify/invalidate the numbers above?

Invalid

Coin launch and the first few blocks were 2014-04-18 10:49:53:

http://moneroblocks.eu/search/1

Block 4500 was three days later 2014-04-21 09:36:22:

http://moneroblocks.eu/search/4500

Thanks for the correction. I think the expression "like an hour and a bit" threw me off, could be a language barrier I'm not native English speaker. 

Not you, it's me - I don't know what I meant to put in brackets, but "an hour and a bit" wasn't what I meant:)

In any case it's nonsensical of me to compare block to block, as we have different block times. A better comparison is on the first 48 hours of launch.

The first 5 056 blocks of Dash bring us to the 48 hour mark. This means the average block time for that period was just over 34 seconds, vs. the 2.5 minutes it is today. At the end of the first two days 2 020 652 Dash had been mined. That's 38% of the total Dash in existence today, and 9.18% of all Dash that will ever exist.

The equivalent for Monero is the first 3 037 blocks, which brings us to the 48 hour mark. This means the average block time for that period was just 56.9 seconds, vs. the 60 seconds it is today. At the end of the first two days 53 350 Monero had been mined. That's 0.72% of the total Monero in existence today. As we have infinite tail emission it the actual % it represents tends towards zero, but if we want to take the initial 18 446 744 XMR as a base value (because minimum block reward takes 7.5 years to kick in) then it represents 0.29% of that initial emission.

[paratox]

Coinmarketcap should at least add a new filter option for Instamined currencies like Dash. The definition of a instamine would be where the coin's actual core parameters were changed after launch to benefit early miners.

+1

That's the only logical solution.

[smooth]

No, you said the Monero scam launch was not just a few coins.

This is what you said:

If you want to express the effect of the deliberately de-optimized miner in terms of the current supply of monero it would be around 2.5x (roughly 1/2.5 of the nominal total coin supply currently exists), so probably <2.5%.

If you want to express the effect of some people optimizing miners better than others, that might be as much as 12.5% or more if you consider that it goes on forever (for every coin, nothing special about Monero).

2.5% - 15%

You are the one who keeps going back and forth between total supply and current supply.

If you are going to use current supply then the Dash instamine is 35%, which is outrageous and larger than most premines that are supposedly important enough to to note on the site.

And as I said earlier there is no proof or even evidence of any kind that anyone benefited from that deliberate crippling, not even dga who made the post about it. If you read what he said by the time he started looking at it, the crippling was already being fixed by NoodleDoodle.

There is no relevance except that you don't like that the monero guys don't like, criticize and document the dash premine, so you come up with any contrived attack you can think of against monero, but it has nothing to do with dash being an instamine, instamined generally, the similarity between instamined and premines or how cmc should display them.

Btw, the guy who rushed ahead with the bitmonero launch was the one we kicked out. Everyone else around, probably including me (I don't remember) was asking him to slow down and do many things differently. He ignored us, which was why he was kicked out.

[coins101]

....snip...
Btw, the guy who rushed ahead with the bitmonero launch was the one we kicked out. Everyone else around, probably including me (I don't remember) was asking him to slow down and do many things differently. He ignored us, which was why he was kicked out.

Do we really have to keep playing this boring game.

You keep admitting monero had scam code baked in with intent to steal. You should have looked at the code, you didn't. There were red flags about the history of the code, you decided to go with the flow. Your choice or not. You could have walked away, for example.

You had the chance to stop, fork, fix and relaunch, but you didn't. So you have to own the scam code in Monero at launch, and for god knows how long after.

Seriously, get over yourself.

Go dev, and stop maintaining this futile war of words.

[Jeff8247]

Trollero supporters still at it i see. All credibility went out the window.

GG Trollero

[Prosperityforall]

During the course of whatever this was, Dash's 'supporters' (?) have consistently used false statements.

I don't understand Dash/Darkcoin trolls harping on Monero... Monero has never had it's core features changed, period.

Dash has had all of it's core features changed multiple times.

They cannot be compared. Dash had a 2million coin instamine, Monero did not.

If Monero never had its core features changed, then its still got scam code in there.

Thanks for that clarification.

The scam code was there (now you are saying still is there, which I kind of doubt, but who knows) to give more coins to the people who put the scam code there or to those few who knew it was there and kept quiet about it.

Scam code is a scam. Period.

Why do you Dash trolls resort to false statements?

The only "scamcode" was the unoptimized miner by the Thankful-for-today character and that has nothing to do with the currencies code.. and even that is neglibable as Bitcoin and practically every other currency also had 'unoptimized miners' when users with the skill created their own optimized versions of the public miners. If you don't know what you're talking about, don't type.

Dash had both it's coin supply and block reward tampered with by Evan Duffield after the 2million coin instamine where he manually changed the block reward from 500 to less than 100 and changed the coin supply from 80million to 22million. Therefore, Dash technically had a premine. No such thing happened in Monero, therefore even having Monero in this 'conversation' is irrelevant as the two coins are on opposite ends of the spectrum.

Crosspost

[Prosperityforall]

The thing that interets me the most is just how is all that false statements Dash trolls are saying, relevant at all to Coinmarketcap?

Dash had a;

. 2million coin instamine in 2 days
. Restricted mining to linux only users
. Block reward manually changed by their developer Evan Duffield from 500 to under 100
. Max coin supply manually changed by their developer, Evan Duffield, from 80million to 20million.

All of the above and more resulted in Evan Duffield and co getting Dash handed to them like water and having the value of those Dash increase exponentially after he changed the block reward and coin supply to make the instamined Dash much rarer.

Monero had a;

. Unoptimized miner


....And that's it

Monero and Dash cannot be compared, as was said before a 1,000 times.

There needs to be a filter for instamined currencies like Dash.

[AdamWhite]

Not you, it's me - I don't know what I meant to put in brackets, but "an hour and a bit" wasn't what I meant:)

In any case it's nonsensical of me to compare block to block, as we have different block times. A better comparison is on the first 48 hours of launch.

The first 5 056 blocks of Dash bring us to the 48 hour mark. This means the average block time for that period was just over 34 seconds, vs. the 2.5 minutes it is today. At the end of the first two days 2 020 652 Dash had been mined. That's 38% of the total Dash in existence today, and 9.18% of all Dash that will ever exist.

The equivalent for Monero is the first 3 037 blocks, which brings us to the 48 hour mark. This means the average block time for that period was just 56.9 seconds, vs. the 60 seconds it is today. At the end of the first two days 53 350 Monero had been mined. That's 0.72% of the total Monero in existence today. As we have infinite tail emission it the actual % it represents tends towards zero, but if we want to take the initial 18 446 744 XMR as a base value (because minimum block reward takes 7.5 years to kick in) then it represents 0.29% of that initial emission.

Thanks for this comparison. It's obvious DASH was fraudulently instamined. Frankly it's unbelievable and insulting that their dev still claims it was an accident.

[smooth]

You keep admitting monero had scam code baked in with intent to steal.

I don't know the intent and neither do you so stop making shit up.

As far as I know the intent of the original code appeared to be to fake the bytecoin premine. Whether TFT had any intent to steal or (he or anyone else) did steal via the bitmonero launch I have no idea and, again, neither do you. He seemed to just be in a rush to clone and launch for whatever reason, maybe because someone hired him to do it on a deadline. Just a guess of course, but as good as any. We don't even know if he mined AT ALL.  We do know he didn't mine that much if he even did. So again stop making shit up.

This whole discussion started because the cmc admin asked for evidence of the dash premine, which I provided. Moreover you can clearly see 500k coins mined in an hour and 2m in 30 hours, followed by the supple being cut to 1/4. That is all documented, proven, and admitted. There is no evidence of anything with monero. You are simply lashing out at monero and me out of defensiveness and anger over the dash instamine being called out. It's obvious.

[BlockaFett]

Gliss should be impartial, and that means seperating the coins based on what actually happened and in this case, Dash had a premine or at the very least, **Significantly Fastmined**. You've mentioned Monero, but Monero has never had any of it's core parameters changed so Dash and Monero cannot be compared in the slightest.

You are correct. Dash and Monero cannot be compared in the slightest. Dash, as a fork of Litecoin at the time, suffered some issues that were related to the Litecoin code by a programmer new to the code base. It took a day or two to diagnose and fix and much longer to get a working explorer to figure out that so many blocks were created before the difficulty adjusted. There is no proof about the intentions of the developer. Monero on the other hand had code intentionally inserted with no other purpose than to make the built in miner inefficient at launch so that the developer could take advantage. Monero is the only coin being discussed here that was provably and intentionally manipulated by the developer to give themselves an advantage.

Personally, I think this is a very slippery slope. If we start trying to define new categories like "launch issues", "fast-mined" (which most PoS coins would fall into), "insta-mined", or other categories like "dishonest developer" - all categories with very subjective definitions - you'll end up in a slug-fest between competing coins trying to get their competition labeled. Thank you coinmarketcap for deciding to stay above the fray.

So much this...

Here the important word is : INTENTIONALLY, which make no doubt about Monero SCAM. Something intentional was made to give benefice of few over the others.
You got it... while other people are denying:

There was nothing wrong with the history of Monero. It's one of if not the cleanest coins and launches in history.

Just lol..

bump for Smooth.

[Prosperityforall]

The false statements being said here by Dash/Darkcoin supporters speaks volumes.

Evan Duffield who is Dash's lead developer changed Dash's block reward from 500 to under 100, changed the max coin supply from 80million to 20million (avg), and did all this after 2million coins were instamined by himself and co on Linux only miners. All of Dash's core features were changed to heavily benefit the instaminers.

Monero at most had a unoptimized miner released by Thankful-for-today who was kicked out of the dev team and that has nothing to do with the current, 7 person, Monero dev team. None of Monero's core features were changed. Quite the polar oppposite to Dash don't ya think?

Again, the two coins cannot be compared. Dash had a illegal scam as Evan Duffield instamining all those coins as sole developer can be likened to the selling of securities(assuming he sold any Dash). If he hasn't sold any of his instamined Dash, then that's even worse as a end-of-everything dump could occur at any moment.

"Looking at this data, we see that Darkcoin was mined with 500 DRK generated per block from the get go. From block 1 to at least block 3250, according to their blockchain, they were still producing 500 coins each block. The transition from 500 to 277 coins per block occurs between 3250 and 3500 but this author did not see the necessity of getting the exact moment of halving. Simple math shows that 3250 blocks multiplied by 500 coins a block is 1,625,000 Darkcoins created between the times of 3:54 and 11:22 on January 19th, 2014. As of today there are around 4,300,000 DRK in existence, making this a pretty hefty instamine. The Darkcoin website expects around 22,000,000 DRK to be created. That means in less than 8 hours, almost 5% of the Darkcoins that ever will be created spawned in that 1/3 of a day. It's safe to say Darkcoin has left it's investors in the dark on this one."

http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=a_massive_investigation_of_instamines_and_fastmines_for_the_top_alt_coins

That's devtome.com, a site that records the beginnings of cryptocurrencies and their distribution, that's what they had to say about Dash/Darkcoin, here's what they said about Monero:

"There are no instantmines or premines in Monero. The smooth block subsidy scheme could be a little bit more tapered towards a slower distribution than it is, but ultimately this coin passes the smell test."