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Author Topic: Kevin Day, New Bitcoin Multimillionaire worth 5 Million dollars  (Read 15433 times)
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June 20, 2011, 07:47:27 PM
 #61

<-- bbit  Grin
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June 20, 2011, 07:47:51 PM
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smarts? My understanding is that he had early standing buy orders for 0.01 ? How is that smarts or good timing?

He was probably, if honest, just hoping something like this might happen and then he could snatch it up.

That's "smart" in my book.

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June 20, 2011, 07:49:29 PM
 #63

When the market dip started, the effect during and after(until close of market) was related to the movement of the stolen coins pushing market down to 0.01

All trades since the start of shitstorm market collapse until close of market is a direct result of the hacked coins being sold. Its all part of the chain and you cant exclude any other transactions during this period because they are all a result of the former.

This isnt higher grade stuff to understand, what is in this for you ? It really seems like you are playing the cards for this random Kevin Day guy and why would that be ?

If you completely believe the official MtGox story without any verification (to me, things do NOT add up, and extremely basic reasonable information being requested by the direct parties involved has NOT been forthcoming at all), then you are absolutely correct that a rollback is very likely the most reasonable and least-harmful action.

I'm saying I smell a rat.  And I do not believe it is Kevin at all.

Debate is good Smiley
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June 20, 2011, 07:50:07 PM
 #64

I would prefer MtGox to honor its contracts and pay the dues for its own errors or hold whoever caused this accountable for the loss.

Some company needs to be liable and fail. Failure is essential for the future at large.

They can't, 500kBTC*17.5USD is a huge chunk of change.  They can't just refund the guy the money from some magical account as a good faith measure to the people who bought his stolen bitcoins.  They only place to get the money is reverse the transactions.  Which, luckily they can since most of it was internal.

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June 20, 2011, 07:54:33 PM
 #65

When the market dip started, the effect during and after(until close of market) was related to the movement of the stolen coins pushing market down to 0.01

All trades since the start of shitstorm market collapse until close of market is a direct result of the hacked coins being sold. Its all part of the chain and you cant exclude any other transactions during this period because they are all a result of the former.

This isnt higher grade stuff to understand, what is in this for you ? It really seems like you are playing the cards for this random Kevin Day guy and why would that be ?

If you completely believe the official MtGox story without any verification (to me, things do NOT add up, and extremely basic reasonable information being requested by the direct parties involved has NOT been forthcoming at all), then you are absolutely correct that a rollback is very likely the most reasonable and least-harmful action.

I'm saying I smell a rat.  And I do not believe it is Kevin at all.

Debate is good Smiley

Do you trade? Did you look at the trading when all went to shit?

You would not ask these questions if you were indeed live trading at the time, I was.

And it was as clear as "humans needing water to live" that an account was hacked, price was dropped down as fast as possible to 0.01 per BTC

There isnt any more evidence needed for this, it happened, there is abundance of proof and this is verifiable by alot of people who were here at the time commenting on it aswell as on irc.

What exactly do you think is being hide? dont you believe this guy bought stolen bitcoins that was part of the 0.01 sell-off ? If this is your position then I will simply have to point out too you that you may be completely disorientated.

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June 20, 2011, 07:54:45 PM
 #66

Last night, on the bitcion show, Adam from Mt Gox stated that they held all the bitcoins in accounts spread out, and off site.

Then, later on, when answering the question about the 432,000 bitcoin move recorded on a block, he claimed that was Mt Gox moving it's account of bitcoins off site to be safer.

Now, maybe I got something wrong or misheard this, but it appears to be completely contradictory.

Were the bitcoins held by Mt Gox on site or off site?
In one account or in many?

They have not answered this 100% to my satisfaction.

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June 20, 2011, 07:56:16 PM
 #67

Criminal law doesn't work like that, vlaue is not the only way to determine criminality. People pay for drugs all the time, they have value, but you cannot go to court to have your busted drug deal enforced. Bitcoins could be illegal, so you could not even argue this in court.

Yes.  Bitcoins could be illegal.  And if they were illegal, no court would bother hearing your case.  But they aren't.

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June 20, 2011, 07:56:51 PM
 #68

You are so wrong, there is something as common law. You dont need a court to decide if an unregulated item is flagged as theft or not.

Not every coutry is covered by common law. On the contrary, most countries in the world fall under civil law systems, where the law is strictly codified. So first you have to determine jurisdiction. Mt.gox is in Japan (not a Common Law country). Moreover, common law is not unlimited, you have to establish either the existence of a tort (or delict, depending on jurisdiction), or the existence of common law fraud. I cannot think of any circumstance in which these would apply to this case.

In this case, this whole forum and bitcoin involved users know what happened was theft and the coins that got moves were stolen coins thus it is labelled as theft, simple as that.

Theft has a very clear definition in law. Generally, you cannot steal intangible goods. In the case of currency, there is indeed theft of legal currency, even in electronic format. However, BTCs are operating in a legal void, not only that, they may even be illegal in the eyes of the law. So you cannot steal illegal items.

If you want to trial it in court and have any leg to stand on then sure you would need to go by the law of the land but atm this is an online "trial" and we know the verdict clear and simple.

What is this online trial crap? Really, you can scream and write as many angry posts as you want, that will not get the coins back.
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June 20, 2011, 07:57:36 PM
 #69

Criminal law doesn't work like that, vlaue is not the only way to determine criminality. People pay for drugs all the time, they have value, but you cannot go to court to have your busted drug deal enforced. Bitcoins could be illegal, so you could not even argue this in court.

Yes.  Bitcoins could be illegal.  And if they were illegal, no court would bother hearing your case.  But they aren't.

Yeah but are they Legal?

By what law?

You're usually right, please inform us.
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June 20, 2011, 07:58:39 PM
 #70

Yes lemonginger, this is still a huge question:



No, perhaps I wasn't clear enough.
Name one old-miner or early investor who is stupid enough to place 250,000 coins in an account on an online exchange?
Why would any real person keep over 250,000 coins in an account unless they were setting up to intentionally crash the market?


Yes this is still a huge question. I find it hard to believe it was any one account, thus insinuating that hackers did actually have access to the MTG database.

Not quite, IMO.
...thus insinuating that the CIA/NSA intentionally crashed the market, and/or were planning to?




@ anyone still open:
Name one old-miner or early investor who is stupid enough to place 250,000 coins in an account on an online exchange?
Why would any real person keep over 250,000 coins in an account unless they were setting up to intentionally crash the market?

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June 20, 2011, 07:58:51 PM
 #71

Again: Stuff do not need legal status to be named as "stuff"

They do, sorry, but I'm a lawyer.

Bitcoins exist. That is what matter to a judge if you claim your bitcoins were stolen.

Like I said, there are legal precents, even for non-currency things (there are at least one case that I know of someone being charged for stealing a sword in WoW without using in-game means)

And these were not theft cases, they were hacking cases. Two very different things.
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June 20, 2011, 07:58:55 PM
 #72

You are so wrong, there is something as common law. You dont need a court to decide if an unregulated item is flagged as theft or not.

Not every coutry is covered by common law. On the contrary, most countries in the world fall under civil law systems, where the law is strictly codified. So first you have to determine jurisdiction. Mt.gox is in Japan (not a Common Law country). Moreover, common law is not unlimited, you have to establish either the existence of a tort (or delict, depending on jurisdiction), or the existence of common law fraud. I cannot think of any circumstance in which these would apply to this case.

In this case, this whole forum and bitcoin involved users know what happened was theft and the coins that got moves were stolen coins thus it is labelled as theft, simple as that.

Theft has a very clear definition in law. Generally, you cannot steal intangible goods. In the case of currency, there is indeed theft of legal currency, even in electronic format. However, BTCs are operating in a legal void, not only that, they may even be illegal in the eyes of the law. So you cannot steal illegal items.

If you want to trial it in court and have any leg to stand on then sure you would need to go by the law of the land but atm this is an online "trial" and we know the verdict clear and simple.

What is this online trial crap? Really, you can scream and write as many angry posts as you want, that will not get the coins back.

I think you are refering to commonwealth law?

Common law is direct result of the common people view and is usually seen in small to midsize communities(mostly small)

I am not refering to a legal position such as commonwealth law.

lmao at the screaming to get coins back, I never asked such a thing. I simply made my point clear that whatever happens to this would be dealt with online and wont move beyond that.

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June 20, 2011, 07:59:12 PM
 #73

Title should read "Kevin Day, attempted bitcoin multimillionaire from Mt Gox hacking worth nothing"

Orders made through Mt. Gox after the hack weren't legit, no matter how much you really really wish they were.
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June 20, 2011, 08:03:59 PM
 #74

Asked:

Why would any real person keep over 250,000 coins in an account unless they were setting up to intentionally crash the market?

And answered:

MtGox has the $1,000/day limit to withdraw, so...

Hint: it would take many years.

But surely the $1000/day limit is a security measure to protect against exactly what happened on Sun/Mon and nothing more? With prior arrangement with MagicalTux I am fairly certain you could withdraw the lot.

In fact I am fairly sure the law (in the UK certainly - which yes, I know doesn't apply to Mtgox, it's slightly hypothetical) would be on your side with this one and that Mtgox/a.n.other.exchange could not hold onto the btc/usd, particularly when they don't have a daily pay-in limit.

Welcome to the BTC forums, piggybank.  Smiley
re: Higher limits fine, OK.

I'm saying no "real person" would have ever placed that many in at once (risking losing all those coins == not likely), the withdraw part is not intended to be the main focus.
So, Why would any real person keep over 250,000 coins in an account unless they were setting up to intentionally crash the market?

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June 20, 2011, 08:04:09 PM
 #75

Title should read "Kevin Day, attempted bitcoin multimillionaire from Mt Gox hacking worth nothing"

Orders made through Mt. Gox after the hack weren't legit, no matter how much you really really wish they were.

I'm not for or against a rollback and I do not side with Kevin or against him. I titled the thread the way I did for sensationalism. Makes it sound much more interesting than your proposal.   Cool

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June 20, 2011, 08:05:17 PM
 #76

A class action suit may permit discovery -- which would either confirm or deny MtGox's official 'auditor' story.

Mt.Gox is based in Japan, I am not familiar with Japanese law, but I would be very surprised if they have the same version of class action lawsuits as the U.S. system.

And you are most likely wrong about them being worthless in the eyes of the law.  They're simply a commodity that exists in digital form only.  They'd be treated as such by the courts.  The courts would see the fact that there is a market for them, and would view them based on their value on the market(s).

I've looked into this (warning, I'm no commodities lawyer). Commodities have one legal requirement, they need to have inherent value. What is the inherent value of bitcoins?
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June 20, 2011, 08:07:40 PM
 #77

Criminal law doesn't work like that, vlaue is not the only way to determine criminality. People pay for drugs all the time, they have value, but you cannot go to court to have your busted drug deal enforced. Bitcoins could be illegal, so you could not even argue this in court.

Yes.  Bitcoins could be illegal.  And if they were illegal, no court would bother hearing your case.  But they aren't.

Yeah but are they Legal?

By what law?

You're usually right, please inform us.

By convention in western jurisprudence, all is legal unless specifically illegal.

There are laws against possession of drugs, so a court will not be interested in hearing a case to remedy a loss of them.

There are no similar laws against bitcoin, so a court would have to hear the case.

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June 20, 2011, 08:09:11 PM
 #78

Not this shit again...

The transaction was illegitimate. Get over it already.

That's what I'm saying.

I see alot of anti-roll backers talking about how you shouldn't interfere w\ a free market.  But If MtGox doesn't reverse and in essense becomes an accomplice to the hackers, they will be liable for the damages.

Rollback is the only logical option.

Now.. .if satoshi wants to openly burn his stacks of btc, cool.

But this was clearly an illegal act and therefore mtgox has every right and every obligation to reverse it if they have the power to do so.
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June 20, 2011, 08:09:58 PM
 #79

So, Why would any real person keep over 250,000 coins in an account unless they were setting up to intentionally crash the market?

Why would that be a bad thing?  Heck, I wish it had been legit.  Those coins need to get out.
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June 20, 2011, 08:13:19 PM
 #80

Criminal law doesn't work like that, vlaue is not the only way to determine criminality. People pay for drugs all the time, they have value, but you cannot go to court to have your busted drug deal enforced. Bitcoins could be illegal, so you could not even argue this in court.

Yes.  Bitcoins could be illegal.  And if they were illegal, no court would bother hearing your case.  But they aren't.

In the United States they are almost certainly illegal, as only the Mint and the Fed can issue currency. The FBI stated this about the Liberty Dollar affair: “It is a violation of federal law for individuals, or organizations, to create private coin or currency systems to compete with the official coinage and currency of the United States.”

In Europe they are certainly illegal, as only Electronic Money Institutions can issue electronic currency in accordance to the EMI Directive.

In most other countries, including where I am right now, the issuing of currency is monopolised by government or central banks.

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