Kevin Day, New Bitcoin Multimillionaire worth 5 Million dollars

[Clipse]

Did you all miss one valid point? Kevin Day or whoever this person is may have been involved in the hack and this is his way of getting the funds out.

I dont trust this shit for a second.

You really don't know who kevin day is?  And you're speculating he's behind this?  I generally don't flame people on boards, but do some research and ask some folks who are "in the know" before you post idiotic statements.

Oh go blow a fat goat and please come to the rescue of your buddy why dont you.

I assume Kevin Day is the one holding the BATLIGHT when in need.

Go scam someone else or just stfu, this is way to convenient. Yes of couse he had an open order of >250k at exactly the right low price so that he would buy it all up.

Troll troll troll along in the rain.

Or you could do some research.  Easier to flame on a message board I guess  To each his own.

Got nothing to do with what is easier/where its easier to flame.

You approached it as if everyone should know who this person is, stop kidding yourself, he is clearly not that big a deal but perhaps to you personally he is some solid gold god.

I dont know the guy, and Im sure shitload other people dont thereby I cant ignore the fact that he could be involved in this.

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[bitrebel]

Here is my paranoid concerns.

Who had 500,000 coins in one account?

Mt Gox is likely to have, but not many others.

Either the bitcoins could have been pulled from many accounts, then dumped, then bought back up by another account owned and controlled by Mt Gox, all the while Mt Gox is doing it behind the scenes....

or

Mt Gox hacks an innocent users account, to drop all them on the market for one of Mt Gox's accounts to them buy them all up.

I'm leaning towards the thoughts of an inside job.

Maybe Kevin is the one who caused the selloff or maybe Kevin just beat them to the buyback.

 

[Anduril]

I would prefer MtGox to honor its contracts and pay the dues for its own errors or hold whoever caused this accountable for the loss.

What contracts would those be? I could make a strong legal argument that there is no contract involved at all. Mtgox doesn't have a click-wrap agreement when signing up, the site has no Terms and Conditions, and you cannot contract with illegal goods or services. For example, in countries where prostitution is illegal you cannot go to the police if the prostitute did not fulfil her part of the deal

Some company needs to be liable and fail. Failure is essential for the future at large.

Moral liability? Sure! Legal liability? Afraid not. One drawback of operating in the libertarian utopia is that at the moment the law does not apply to Bitcoins.

[noedaRDH]

If a car was stolen, then sold, the car would still be seized, even if the buyer is innocent. Maybe that's not the best analogy but I think Mt Gox is doing the right thing. We don't really know who Kevin Day is.

[piggybank]

Asked:

Why would any real person keep over 250,000 coins in an account unless they were setting up to intentionally crash the market?

And answered:

MtGox has the $1,000/day limit to withdraw, so...

Hint: it would take many years.

But surely the $1000/day limit is a security measure to protect against exactly what happened on Sun/Mon and nothing more? With prior arrangement with MagicalTux I am fairly certain you could withdraw the lot.

In fact I am fairly sure the law (in the UK certainly - which yes, I know doesn't apply to Mtgox, it's slightly hypothetical) would be on your side with this one and that Mtgox/a.n.other.exchange could not hold onto the btc/usd, particularly when they don't have a daily pay-in limit.

[Phil21]

Again I pose this question - has the actual existence of this person who got stolen from been confirmed?  Why is everyone assuming this to be the case?

A simple question.  Why has it not been answered?

As I have stated previously, no matter if mtgox or kevin does it, any stolen coins would be returned.  I know that's not a given to everyone here as it's an anonymous Internet message board, but assume that is the case for sake of this argument.

What about the *NOT* stolen legitimate trades?  I assume the community opinion is that these trades would not have happened had the panic of the errant sell order been placed, and thus a full market rollback is the appropriate response?

I'm not saying I disagree with that course of action at all, I'm saying I want some more very simple information which has been strangely non-forthcoming.

[Clipse]

I was a strong rollback supporter, but with a question.
Why does MtGox really want to rollback? What does MtGox actually gain from helping the one big fat cat?
Less chance of one serious lawsuit?
Can some help answer/speculate?

Which one big fat cat are you referring to?  Rule of Law?  Or the entire bitcoin community?

Or do you really think that the only person (or people) hurt by this was the one guy (or several guys) that had their accounts liquidated?

People on both sides are hurting kjj, and the entire thing smells fishy to me. If possible please answer my question above in bold red, thanks.

Even a large number of people on both sides is trivial in comparison to the harm to the community, and to the rule of law.

Stolen goods are not the legitimate property of their holder, even if they were not involved in the theft.  A rollback is the only real option here.

Ive seen many incorrect casino jackpots being triggered when I worked in the security department at the casino nearby and I can tell you hearts dropped as their jackpot got nullified due to technical computer error.

This doesnt exclude the point here, a false payment must be rectified even if it does hurt the person who had something to gained from it, be it via proper/improper methods.

[Anduril]

it's a misdemeanor class A to even log into somebodies account that does not belong to you.  Once you pass the $1500 mark of financial damage, you get into felony territory.

source : personal experience.

This Kevin person is not the hacker, he just placed an order. You are confusing two different things.

The original hacker surely could go to jail under hacking criminal offences though.

[Bit_Happy]

Asked:

Why would any real person keep over 250,000 coins in an account unless they were setting up to intentionally crash the market?

And answered:

MtGox has the $1,000/day limit to withdraw, so...

Hint: it would take many years.

No, perhaps I wasn't clear enough.
Name one old-miner or early investor who is stupid enough to place 250,000 coins in an account on an online exchange?
Why would any real person keep over 250,000 coins in an account unless they were setting up to intentionally crash the market?

[Phil21]

Got nothing to do with what is easier/where its easier to flame.

You approached it as if everyone should know who this person is, stop kidding yourself, he is clearly not that big a deal but perhaps to you personally he is some solid gold god.

I dont know the guy, and Im sure shitload other people dont thereby I cant ignore the fact that he could be involved in this.

No I did not, although I can see how my comment was interpreted that way.  My intent was to tell you to do some basic research on someone before you call them a criminal.  Words exist forever on the Internet.  If you did do research and came to this conclusion anyways, then I apologize.  You are welcome to your opinion.

And, I am in no way a close friend of Kevin's at all - I simply mostly know of him having worked in similar industries.  In certain circles he is well-regarded, thus, do some research and your opinion of him (and very likely the entire situation) may change a little was what I was getting at.

-Phil

Edit: formatting

[Clipse]

Again I pose this question - has the actual existence of this person who got stolen from been confirmed?  Why is everyone assuming this to be the case?

A simple question.  Why has it not been answered?

As I have stated previously, no matter if mtgox or kevin does it, any stolen coins would be returned.  I know that's not a given to everyone here as it's an anonymous Internet message board, but assume that is the case for sake of this argument.

What about the *NOT* stolen legitimate trades?  I assume the community opinion is that these trades would not have happened had the panic of the errant sell order been placed, and thus a full market rollback is the appropriate response?

I'm not saying I disagree with that course of action at all, I'm saying I want some more very simple information which has been strangely non-forthcoming.

When the market dip started, the effect during and after(until close of market) was related to the movement of the stolen coins pushing market down to 0.01

All trades since the start of shitstorm market collapse until close of market is a direct result of the hacked coins being sold. Its all part of the chain and you cant exclude any other transactions during this period because they are all a result of the former.

This isnt higher grade stuff to understand, what is in this for you ? It really seems like you are playing the cards for this random Kevin Day guy and why would that be ?

[speeder]

Note: the 1000 USD withdraw is there because of law, not MtGox security.

Several countries have withdraw limits for several reasons (security among them).

In US for example, the withdraw limit is enforced with anonymity: Ie: You can create anonymous bank accounts and withdraw in a anonymous manner, as long it is 1000 USD or less.

MtGox to release more than 1000 USD to a US citizen, has to ask him to fill some indentification formularies as the law requires.


We are not in a lawless land as some people think.

[Clipse]

Got nothing to do with what is easier/where its easier to flame.

You approached it as if everyone should know who this person is, stop kidding yourself, he is clearly not that big a deal but perhaps to you personally he is some solid gold god.

I dont know the guy, and Im sure shitload other people dont thereby I cant ignore the fact that he could be involved in this.

No I did not, although I can see how my comment was interpreted that way.  My intent was to tell you to do some basic research on someone before you call them a criminal.  Words exist forever on the Internet.  If you did do research and came to this conclusion anyways, then I apologize.  You are welcome to your opinion.

And, I am in no way a close friend of Kevin's at all - I simply mostly know of him having worked in similar industries.  In certain circles he is well-regarded, thus, do some research and your opinion of him may change a little was what I was getting at.

-Phil

Edit: formatting

This whole setup is way to convenient and the money involved is potentially a lifetime payout thus I disregard most if not all peoples integrity when it comes to these situations.

Ive seen way more personal reputable people in the casino industry taking their shots at the bank when you least expect it. Humans are a different kind of animal and money is their favourite snack.

[Epinnoia]

it's a misdemeanor class A to even log into somebodies account that does not belong to you.  Once you pass the $1500 mark of financial damage, you get into felony territory.

source : personal experience.

Read my thread about bringing bitcoins to court.

They have no intrinsic value, and aren't backed by any authority.

They are fucking worthless in the eyes of the Law.

Period.

If I take a giant shit in a coffee can and 500 people are all clamoring to give me $10,000 for it and I split it up amongst them, and then someone gets some of my warm excrement stolen from them, is a court going to award them compensation?

Why not?  Because my hot, steaming excrement isn't currency?  Well I've got 500 people sniffing my shit lined up to tell you otherwise, and they want their goddamn trades reversed or else there's class action on the way!

LOL...

You people are great.  I love you.

A class action suit may permit discovery -- which would either confirm or deny MtGox's official 'auditor' story.

And you are most likely wrong about them being worthless in the eyes of the law.  They're simply a commodity that exists in digital form only.  They'd be treated as such by the courts.  The courts would see the fact that there is a market for them, and would view them based on their value on the market(s).

[Bit_Happy]

Rollback = Winner!
I always felt that way, and it's good to see a healthy debate.

[lemonginger]

No, perhaps I wasn't clear enough.
Name one old-miner or early investor who is stupid enough to place 250,000 coins in an account on an online exchange?
Why would any real person keep over 250,000 coins in an account unless they were setting up to intentionally crash the market?

Yes this is still a huge question. I find it hard to believe it was any one account, thus insinuating that hackers did actually have access to the MTG database.

[bitrebel]

Got nothing to do with what is easier/where its easier to flame.

You approached it as if everyone should know who this person is, stop kidding yourself, he is clearly not that big a deal but perhaps to you personally he is some solid gold god.

I dont know the guy, and Im sure shitload other people dont thereby I cant ignore the fact that he could be involved in this.

No I did not, although I can see how my comment was interpreted that way.  My intent was to tell you to do some basic research on someone before you call them a criminal.  Words exist forever on the Internet.  If you did do research and came to this conclusion anyways, then I apologize.  You are welcome to your opinion.

And, I am in no way a close friend of Kevin's at all - I simply mostly know of him having worked in similar industries.  In certain circles he is well-regarded, thus, do some research and your opinion of him (and very likely the entire situation) may change a little was what I was getting at.

-Phil

Edit: formatting

Kevin looks very honest and sincere to me. I kind of feel bad for him, actually. He just happened to be at the right place at the right time, and had awesome timing and smarts to be trading when it all happened.

[Clipse]

smarts? My understanding is that he had early standing buy orders for 0.01 ? How is that smarts or good timing?

He was probably, if honest, just hoping something like this might happen and then he could snatch it up.

[Oldminer]

Not this shit again...

The transaction was illegitimate. Get over it already.

[Anduril]

There are previous court cases all over the world of people winning lawsuits against thieves that stole virtual currency from several systems and items.

These are mostly not considered theft, but hacking. E.g. lots of countries have signed up to the Cybercrime Convention, which criminalises unauthorised access to an account.

Theft of virtual currencies are entirely a different matter, AFAIK, only Korea has come remotely close to recognise it as theft.

It does not matter if bitcoin is not legal tender. It is NOT worthless in the eyes of the law, any decent lawyer can prove that bitcoins are worth whatever people are paying for them, and thus if the lawyer show to the judge that BTC was worth 17.5 when the theft happened, the judge WILL understand that BTC was worth 17.5 and thus the value stolen was 17.5 * 550k, and that one person, Kevin, received 261k * 17.5 USD worth in goods, and knowing that it was given to him accidentally during a heist, he decided to keep it.

Criminal law doesn't work like that, vlaue is not the only way to determine criminality. People pay for drugs all the time, they have value, but you cannot go to court to have your busted drug deal enforced. Bitcoins could be illegal, so you could not even argue this in court.

Thus, if someone (or even the government itself) sue Kevin for keeping the BTC, he will be charged for receiving 4 567 500 worth of stolen virtual goods. Like if he kept stolen WoW gold, or linden dollars, or a sword of 1000 truths, or facebook credits, or Ragnarok Online account, or whatever else that exists over internet and people actively trade.

You have to distinguish between civil and criminal law. I do not see any sort of legal action against Kevin, he just placed an order. Prosecutors could pursue the original hacker though.