Kevin Day, New Bitcoin Multimillionaire worth 5 Million dollars

[jgraham]

Has the actual existence of said "fat cat" actually have been confirmed?

If not.. why do you assume this to be a truth?

Oh, please do(!) go there, as I asked in another thread:
MtGox has the $1,000/day limit to withdraw, so...
Why would any real person keep over 250,000 coins in an account unless they were setting up to intentionally crash the market?
^^^
I need to find the other thread and see if anyone finally gave a decent answer to this question.
Any takers want to try, please?  

No, not because the argument can't be made but rather that your standard of evidence is undisclosed and either arbitrary or pretty subjective.  So regardless of how plausible the argument you can always claim it's insufficient.  That's all fine and good if all you want is to bolster your confidence in your own opinion but it doesn't really help you figure out the truth.

[bitrebel]

Once again, I reiterate, YOU ARE ASSUMING BITCOINS FIT THE DEFINITION OF A CURRENCY.
They are not necessarily a "currency" legally. I do not believe they are.

You will have to show me that you have a legal definition of currency that is different from what Bitcoin does. It acts like a currency, it advertises itself as a currency, ergo it is a currency.

How about the definition in Black's?

Currency: Coined money and such bank notes or other paper money as are authorized by law and do in fact circulate from hand to hand as the medium of exchange.

Also, I find it humorous that you think that bitcoins, which don't exist even in the abstract, advertise themselves.

kjj, you are freaking me out. We are both typing the same thing at the same time. I posted my post about Blacks in synchro with you, once again. 

[Freakin]

North Fork, CA developed it's own "currency" earlier this year and isn't facing any kind of legal pressure to shut it down.

They are called North Fork Shares and are worth $12 each

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jan/15/business/la-fi-local-currency-20110115

[kjj]

kjj, you are freaking me out. We are both typing the same thing at the same time. I posted my post about Blacks in synchro with you, once again. 

Ha!  I saw that.  I'm almost done for the day, and I couldn't resist the temptation to waste a few minutes feeding the trolls.  I was showing some of the alleged lawyer's posts to the local circuit judge, and he was howling with laughter.

[Synaptic]

kjj, you are freaking me out. We are both typing the same thing at the same time. I posted my post about Blacks in synchro with you, once again. 

Ha!  I saw that.  I'm almost done for the day, and I couldn't resist the temptation to waste a few minutes feeding the trolls.  I was showing some of the alleged lawyer's posts to the local circuit judge, and he was howling with laughter.

Oh haha.

Give the good Judge our regards!

[bitrebel]

North Fork, CA developed it's own "currency" earlier this year and isn't facing any kind of legal pressure to shut it down.

They are called North Fork Shares and are worth $12 each

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jan/15/business/la-fi-local-currency-20110115

There are almost 100 or more "alternative currencies" currently circulating with ZERO legal problems.

It's when you create a currency, and try to convince people to take it as "dollars". That's why the Liberty Dollar had problems.

The Justice Department claimed it was a form of terrorism to create a currency to "try to destroy or replace the dollar".

[bitrebel]

kjj, you are freaking me out. We are both typing the same thing at the same time. I posted my post about Blacks in synchro with you, once again. 

Ha!  I saw that.  I'm almost done for the day, and I couldn't resist the temptation to waste a few minutes feeding the trolls.  I was showing some of the alleged lawyer's posts to the local circuit judge, and he was howling with laughter.

Oh haha.

Give the good Judge our regards!

You have a nasty disposition Synaptic. You don't come here to make friends, do you? Maybe at least you'll learn something.

[Synaptic]

kjj, you are freaking me out. We are both typing the same thing at the same time. I posted my post about Blacks in synchro with you, once again. 

Ha!  I saw that.  I'm almost done for the day, and I couldn't resist the temptation to waste a few minutes feeding the trolls.  I was showing some of the alleged lawyer's posts to the local circuit judge, and he was howling with laughter.

Oh haha.

Give the good Judge our regards!

You have a nasty disposition Synaptic. You don't come here to make friends, do you? Maybe at least you'll learn something.

I am your friend.

Only friends will go out on a limb to correct your errors.

[Bit_Happy]

Has the actual existence of said "fat cat" actually have been confirmed?

If not.. why do you assume this to be a truth?

Oh, please do(!) go there, as I asked in another thread:
MtGox has the $1,000/day limit to withdraw, so...
Why would any real person keep over 250,000 coins in an account unless they were setting up to intentionally crash the market?
^^^
I need to find the other thread and see if anyone finally gave a decent answer to this question.
Any takers want to try, please?  

No, not because the argument can't be made but rather that your standard of evidence is undisclosed and either arbitrary or pretty subjective.  So regardless of how plausible the argument you can always claim it's insufficient.  That's all fine and good if all you want is to bolster your confidence in your own opinion but it doesn't really help you figure out the truth.

No.
I don't need standards of evidence to ask a question*, now do I?
*The question is based on what we are currently told about the melt-down.

Why would any real person keep over 250,000 coins in an account unless they were setting up to intentionally crash the market?

[Bind]

Currency is 'legal tender'.
 
BitCoin is not legitimate and legal currency according to the US legal tender laws.

Only the government has the right to 'Coin Money'.

I am sure there are similar statutes in most nations.

It is a medium for exchange and has close ties to currency. In a historical sense it is a currency, just not a legal one I dont think.

That said, stolen bitcoins can be valued. Acts were comitted to deprive the rightful owners of property, whether virtual or physical is not significant. Take a look at the second life lawsuits and judgements about virtual property and the valuation thereof.

[jgraham]

Has the actual existence of said "fat cat" actually have been confirmed?

If not.. why do you assume this to be a truth?

Oh, please do(!) go there, as I asked in another thread:
MtGox has the $1,000/day limit to withdraw, so...
Why would any real person keep over 250,000 coins in an account unless they were setting up to intentionally crash the market?
^^^
I need to find the other thread and see if anyone finally gave a decent answer to this question.
Any takers want to try, please?  

No, not because the argument can't be made but rather that your standard of evidence is undisclosed and either arbitrary or pretty subjective.  So regardless of how plausible the argument you can always claim it's insufficient.  That's all fine and good if all you want is to bolster your confidence in your own opinion but it doesn't really help you figure out the truth.

No.
I don't need standards of evidence to ask a question, now do I?

Please try to be a little less stupid. Clearly your post isn't *SIMPLY* about asking a question.  What you want is someone to "finally give you a decent answer" to said question.  I'm just pointing out the rather obvious fact that it's more than a little difficult to give you a "decent answer" when there's no definition as to what objective and non-arbitrary criteria would make a "decent" answer to you.  It also leaves you with the ability to worm your way out of calling any answer "decent" when all the cards aren't on the table.

[Bit_Happy]

Has the actual existence of said "fat cat" actually have been confirmed?

If not.. why do you assume this to be a truth?

Oh, please do(!) go there, as I asked in another thread:
MtGox has the $1,000/day limit to withdraw, so...
Why would any real person keep over 250,000 coins in an account unless they were setting up to intentionally crash the market?
^^^
I need to find the other thread and see if anyone finally gave a decent answer to this question.
Any takers want to try, please?  

No, not because the argument can't be made but rather that your standard of evidence is undisclosed and either arbitrary or pretty subjective.  So regardless of how plausible the argument you can always claim it's insufficient.  That's all fine and good if all you want is to bolster your confidence in your own opinion but it doesn't really help you figure out the truth.

No.
I don't need standards of evidence to ask a question, now do I?

Please try to be a little less stupid. Clearly your post isn't *SIMPLY* about asking a question.  What you want is someone to "finally give you a decent answer" to said question.  I'm just pointing out the rather obvious fact that it's more than a little difficult to give you a "decent answer" when there's no definition as to what objective and non-arbitrary criteria would make a "decent" answer to you.  It also leaves you with the ability to worm your way out of calling any answer "decent" when all the cards aren't on the table.

Hi jgraham,
I had edited my post, perhaps if you had seen the edit you wouldn't be such a rude, obvious a-hole of a troll?   



No.
I don't need standards of evidence to ask a question*, now do I?
*The question is based on what we are currently told about the melt-down.

Why would any real person keep over 250,000 coins in an account unless they were setting up to intentionally crash the market?

[Anduril]

I am being respectful and trying to keep a civil tone, I would very much appreciate if you did the same.

You quote anti-counterfeiting laws, when you should instead have dusted off your copy of Black's and looked into money, currency and current money.  Bitcoin is neither a banknote, nor a currency, as so defined, and makes no claims to be either.

Black's? Really? You do know that Black's is simply used for basic definitions, right? It is mostly used in law school. I don't even know where my copy is! If I remember my days from law school correctly, he may even have used Bouvier's own outdated definition of currency as "The money which passes, at a fixed value, from hand to hand; money which is authorized by law."  

Nowadays currency is recognised as a generally accepted exchange of value, this arises from Friedman and Schwartz famous paper, "The Definition of Money: Net Wealth and Neutrality as Criteria Journal of Money", Credit and Banking, Vol. 1, No. 1, Feb., 1969. I would also refer you to this definition in Ellinger, Lomicka and Hooley's "Modern Banking Law", Oxford Univeristy Press, 2002, p.362.

To be sure, we talk informally on these forums, and toss around the terms "money" and "currency" with wild abandon.  Our informal words don't change the reality of the situation, nor their legal status.

They can be used legally as proof of intent. Bitcoin calls itself a P2P currency, it fulfils the actions of money, namely, it is value exchanged by parties other than the issuer for goods and services.

Bitcoin is even better, since there is no such thing that anyone can point to, not even an abstract concept, and say "This is a bitcoin".  What we are really doing when we "send bitcoins" to others is transferring an interest, another word you have forgotten since law school.

Please, could you leave the snarky ad homs? You really want to use the intangible explanation? Really? By that argument, there is no such thing as an EFTPOS because you cannot point to a thing being transferred. There are no funds transfers from bank accounts because no physical bills and coins are being exchanged.

And I can assure you that the courts have been dealing with intangible interests for hundreds of years, and have no problem with the idea.

Interest? Legally interest is nothing more than a payment on balances maintained in an account. Can you please explain how the entire system of interest works on Bitcoin? Who holds the balance? Who pays out the interest? How is it calculated?

[jgraham]

Hi jgraham,
I had edited my post, perhaps if you had seen the edit you wouldn't be such a rude, obvious a-hole of a troll?   

I don't really know what you're talking about.
I'm really just responding to the dumb and self-important way you framed your question.  Also pointing out why you have no sufficient answers and why what you're doing is more silly posturing than actual inquiry.

[Anduril]

Good thing I happen to have my Blacks Law 4th ed right here...

Currency. Coined Money and such banknotes or other paper money as are authorized by law and do in fatc circulate from hand to hand as a medium of exchange.

Bitcoins are not coined money
Bitcoins are not banknotes
Bitcoins are not authorized by law
Bitcoins do not circulate from hand to hand

What more do you want? My bill for legal counsel?

You are missing the point, the article is telling you exactly what currency is. It is something that circulates from hand to hand as a medium of exchange. Blacks goes farther and defines LEGAL CURRENCY as CURRENCY, hence the addition of the requirement of it being coined by the MINT or issued by the Fed and recognised by law.

I repeat, legally, all over the world, currency is a means of exchange that is accepted for payment for goods and services. This is what Bitcoin does.

[makomk]

Strong passwords are difficult or near impossible to crack(?), so the fat cat is a "dummy" (his money is gone & MtGox not clearly at fault (?)) and all the lucky little people should win.*

It's quite likely that whatever password was cracked would've been more than strong enough had Mt Gox not royally screwed up by losing a copy of their password database and failing to notice for several days. Creating passwords that are brute-force proof once someone's leaked the hash isn't very practical these days as the resulting passwords are too long to remember, especially if you're using different passwords for each site. This is even more true if it was an older password because Mt Gox foolishly stored those as unsalted MD5.

Oh, please do(!) go there, as I asked in another thread:
MtGox has the $1,000/day limit to withdraw, so...
Why would any real person keep over 250,000 coins in an account unless they were setting up to intentionally crash the market?

Because they bought them or put them there some time ago in or prior to the 10,000 BTC pizza era and haven't managed to get them out since due to the withdrawal limit? They may not even have logged into Mt Tux or used bitcoins in a long time, for all you know. In fact, given that older passwords are significantly easier to crack than newer ones, it's quite likely that whoever this is hasn't been back in a while.

(The other use for large sums like that is, of course, stabilising the market.)

Also, I'm amused by the sudden outbreak of hate for the Bitcoin super-rich.

[Anduril]

kjj, you are freaking me out. We are both typing the same thing at the same time. I posted my post about Blacks in synchro with you, once again. 

Ha!  I saw that.  I'm almost done for the day, and I couldn't resist the temptation to waste a few minutes feeding the trolls.  I was showing some of the alleged lawyer's posts to the local circuit judge, and he was howling with laughter.

So, anyone who disagrees with Bitcoin in these parts is a troll, right?

By the mention of Black's and circuit judges I assume that you are in the U.S. You do know that the world is much larger than that, right? (HINT: I'm not a U.S. lawyer).

I'm really disappointed, I was really looking forward to having a civil discussion here.

[bitrebel]

Good thing I happen to have my Blacks Law 4th ed right here...

Currency. Coined Money and such banknotes or other paper money as are authorized by law and do in fatc circulate from hand to hand as a medium of exchange.

Bitcoins are not coined money
Bitcoins are not banknotes
Bitcoins are not authorized by law
Bitcoins do not circulate from hand to hand

What more do you want? My bill for legal counsel?

You are missing the point, the article is telling you exactly what currency is. It is something that circulates from hand to hand as a medium of exchange. Blacks goes farther and defines LEGAL CURRENCY as CURRENCY, hence the addition of the requirement of it being coined by the MINT or issued by the Fed and recognised by law.

I repeat, legally, all over the world, currency is a means of exchange that is accepted for payment for goods and services. This is what Bitcoin does.

Drugs serve this purpose also, and fit the definition then. Are drugs currency?

[Anduril]

Drugs serve this purpose also, and fit the definition then. Are drugs currency?

No, drugs are a commodity 

Commodities can be used as means of exchange in barter or through exchanges, but they are not currency in the legal sense. Usually, we define them as symbolic value imprinted in a coin, paper, or electronic medium (read the definition of electronic money in the European Directives for example).

I really recommend Friedman's article I cited earlier.

[Serge]

holy ####! all other virtual and non virtual currencies not issued by some governments must be illegal

lets shut down any site using any sort of credits and tokens, they are clearly have no right to assign you their currencies in exchange for a government issued money, lets start with FB and WOW for starters
lets go after anyone doing any trades and any barters not made in fiat currencies
lets shut down all casinos and gambling sites for playing and exchanging chips for money
and lastly lets shutdown communities using their own currencies (there is another town in US using own currency other than what was mentioned earlier in this thread)