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Author Topic: Byteball: Blackbytes FAQ  (Read 7017 times)
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LoyceV
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July 14, 2017, 04:29:41 PM
Merited by BitcoinHodler (5), coingrow (1)
 #1

Very quick summary
Byteball has two build-in currencies: bytes and blackbytes. Bytes can be traded at Bittrex, blackbytes are untraceable and can't be traded at an exchange (yet). They can only be exchanged after pairing wallets. The Byteball wallet has a chat in which you can do this.
For general information on Byteball, go to the main thread. My thread is meant to understand blackbytes.
Until recently, blackbytes were a bit of a mystery to me, so I did some experiments. I can recommend it: create at least 2 new wallets for testing purposes, send a small amount of bytes and blackbytes, and play around with the features Byteball offers.


Nomenclature
bytes = base unit
kB = 1 thousand bytes
MB= 1 million bytes (currently worth about $0.50)
GB/GBYTE = 1 billion bytes (currently worth about $500)

blackbytes = base unit
kBB = 1 thousand blackbytes
MBB = 1 million blackbytes
GBB = 1 billion blackbytes (currently worth about 0.02 GBYTE ($10) according to Slack)


Fees
Byteball requires 1 byte fee (paid to the Witnesses) per byte of data it stores in the DAG. A GBYTE transaction costs about 600 bytes fee ($0.0003) without special conditions, a GBB transaction can be larger, say up to 10,000 bytes ($0.005), depending on your exact payment. Low enough to neglect, just remember keep a few bytes in your wallet if you want to send blackbytes.


Blackbytes trading
Slack channel #trading_blackbyte has a bot that shows BID and ASK orders, but you need to do manual pairing. Byteball Wiki explains how.


My test setup:

These 4 light wallets all run as a different user.
I can definitely recommend playing around with a Byteball wallet with just some play money in there. I installed a VM for this, created 4 Byteball wallets under 4 different usernames, sent 8 MB and 16 MBB (worth only a few bucks) to one of them, and played around with many of the features. It gives more confidence in understanding the wallet, without risking my real wallet.


Test results
Q. What happens when I restore an old backup after receiving blackbytes?
A. The blackbytes are gone!
Q. After restoring my backup (see previous Q.), I request the sender to click "re-send private payloads". Do I receive my blackbytes again?
A. Yes.

Q. What happens if I restore an old backup after sending blackbytes?
A. The wallet shows the wrong number of blackbytes.
Q. After restoring my backup (see previous Q.), I try to send blackbytes. Does this work?
A. No. Failure: "Could not send payment: precommit callback failed".

This is crucial to understand: after restoring an old backup, the receiving party can restore his blackbytes if the sending party re-sends them. If the sending party restores an old backup, he loses the blackbytes he had in a change address.

Q. Would a 1 out of 2 multisig wallet solve this?
A. Yes!
Suppose your computer crashes right after sending or receiving blackbytes. That means your latest backup doesn't have them. But, if you have a 1 out of 2 multisig wallet on another device, that wallet still holds your new blackbytes! After restoring the backup you have 2 different amounts of blackbytes (one correct, the other incorrect). After I've sent all blackbytes from the correct wallet to another wallet, the incorrect (multisig) wallet also shows 0 blackbytes. Problem solved, blackbytes saved!

Q. What happens to a 1-in-2 multisig wallet when blackbytes are sent when one of the two is offline?
A. Payment arrives in the online wallet. When the other wallet comes online too, it quickly updates it's blackbytes balance to the right value.

Q. Why can't I send a certain amount of blackbytes?
A. User "glitch" (on Slack) explained Blackbytes very well: "it (Blackbytes) exists in pieces of 1 2 5 10 20 50 100 etc. i figure it is like when you get your money at the start of a game of monopoly..."
From the 16MBB I sent to my test-wallet, I couldn't make any transaction for less than 100kBB. I know it is possible to make smaller payments, but only if you have the "smaller units" in your wallet.

Q. Why can't I remove a device from my paired devices list in chat after a smart transaction?
A. I don't know. User "slackJore" (on Slack) has a workaround: "you can rename the device to zzAnnoyingDevice or something and sort it to the bottom"

Q. What happens when 2 wallets connect with the same pairing code?
A. Only the first one who uses it gets paired. Each device needs it's own unique pairing code.

Q. Can I test this and send you some (black)bytes?
A. Sure! Pair your wallet with mine, ask me for my payment address, and send me any (black)bytes you want to get rid of. I might send some back. For testing: just stick to small amounts, see how it works. First, choose a pairing code:
A8JlWkrGQd9XxG7VPAtyWs2uzVuVqMlJOBpu8rusG8v0@byteball.org/bb#h4VO6hp/BJHS
A8JlWkrGQd9XxG7VPAtyWs2uzVuVqMlJOBpu8rusG8v0@byteball.org/bb#zYUIllnVzkc/
A8JlWkrGQd9XxG7VPAtyWs2uzVuVqMlJOBpu8rusG8v0@byteball.org/bb#CLZm7uPmOR7I
A8JlWkrGQd9XxG7VPAtyWs2uzVuVqMlJOBpu8rusG8v0@byteball.org/bb#3BxgIHacjYV6
If it connects to "New", that means someone used it already. Remove "New" and use another one.
If it connects to "test1", you've reached my testing wallet. Say hi!


Analogy*
Think of Blackbytes as a post-it handed to you by the previous owner. The post-it says: "you are now the new owner". Together with handing you the post-it, the DAG registers that the previous owner is no longer the owner of these Blackbytes. The DAG does not register who received the post-it.
Now, if you lose this post-it, the previous owner can simply give you another post-it that says: "you are now the new owner".
If you want to give your Blackbytes to someone else, your post-it contains all the information you need to create a new valid post-it for the receiving user, and to register the change of ownership in the DAG.


No spam
All my threads are now self-moderated to stop signature spam. I will remove all irrelevant posts. If you quote the entire OP, your entry will be deleted.
Once in a while I'll summarize posts and clean up this thread.

Disclaimer
Use this information at your own risk.

Further reading
Hiding entire content of on-chain transactions (by Byteball dev Tonych)
Byteball Wiki on Blackbytes


You're more than welcome to add more knowledge on blackbytes to this thread!

* tonych: "Very good analogy!"

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July 15, 2017, 05:40:34 PM
 #2

Reserved

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July 15, 2017, 06:11:28 PM
 #3

thanks for this. there's not a lot of information about them out there. i'm letting them pile up and hopefully there's gonna be a use for them very soon. i wonder what it will be.

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July 15, 2017, 08:12:58 PM
 #4

Really surprised that GBB are worth so little these days. Around 0.01 GBYTE/GBB

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July 15, 2017, 08:18:35 PM
 #5

Is there some reason why GBB can't be traded on an exchange?
I'll be holding them. Seem way undervalued.
Also, it's kind of cool having 'billions' of something!

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July 15, 2017, 08:51:35 PM
 #6

I've added this link to the OP:
Further reading
Hiding entire content of on-chain transactions (by Byteball dev Tonych)
It's a very good read to get some in-depth knowledge about blackbytes:
So if I understand correctly, the public block chain is just a "bag of hashes" which cannot be verified or anything by any node or miner.  It is just a block chain of "data".  These data only have meaning for the people receiving "banknote files", which allows them to check the validity of the whole "banknote".  The hashes are in fact nothing else but hashes of "signed transactions", like with bitcoin, except that only the *signature hash* goes on the public block chain, and the actual transaction data remain on the individual banknote file.  Is that the gist ?  In fact, you need, as you say, TWO signatures (or hashes of signatures): one is the transaction signature (including the new beneficiary) and the other is the "spend" signature of simply the previous output.  The first signature (spending signature) makes that you cannot do double spending any more (you have invalidated the file up to the point where you transmit it), and the second signature allows the receiver to have a valid "new address" that he can spend (and only he, because only he has the secret key that goes with it like on bitcoin).

This is indeed a very, very good idea !
I am now wondering if this is the reason Tonych created Byteball. Although currently Blackbytes seem highly undervalued and barely understood, the more I understand about them, the more I think this is the real value of Byteball.

Is there some reason why GBB can't be traded on an exchange?
An exchange would need to pair wallets to transfer Blackbytes, it requires some coding but should be possible.
Also: read Tonych's thread above, it explains how the entire history of blackbytes is stored with the current owner. That makes a decentralized exchange better for privacy of blackbytes.

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July 19, 2017, 08:22:41 PM
 #7

so 100,000,000 Byteballs = about $50?

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July 19, 2017, 08:25:19 PM
 #8

How long are they going to keep giving this stuff away btw?

some people are predicting another 3-4 airdrops, but more and more bitcoin is being linked so it might be 3 or less. however the developer might slow it down to stop it falling off a cliff the moment it's all distributed.

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July 20, 2017, 09:08:57 PM
 #9

Did anybody make a graph with BB prices in time? So as to understand if BB prices are rising or tanking...

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July 20, 2017, 09:17:28 PM
 #10

How long are they going to keep giving this stuff away btw?

some people are predicting another 3-4 airdrops, but more and more bitcoin is being linked so it might be 3 or less. however the developer might slow it down to stop it falling off a cliff the moment it's all distributed.

why should it fall off a cliff... if the tech is as good as claimed then that shouldnt really happen should it?

what % is distributed?

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July 20, 2017, 11:08:59 PM
 #11

Best FAQ about Blackbytes so far. Thanks!
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July 20, 2017, 11:39:20 PM
 #12

Best FAQ about Blackbytes so far. Thanks!

I agree. Link to this page should probably be put in evidence also on the main thread.

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July 21, 2017, 05:08:52 AM
 #13

so 100,000,000 Byteballs = about $50?

No, byteball is the name of the currency, not its units.

The units are bytes and black bytes.

1 billion bytes = 1 gigabyte = 1 GB, currently around trading at around $540 for 1 GB

1 billion black bytes = 1 gigablackbyte = 1 GBB, currently around trading at around $11 for 1 GBB

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July 21, 2017, 12:05:42 PM
 #14

thanks a lot. this was very helpful, specially since i am a bit scared of testing new stuff. right now my Bytes are sitting in the wallet waiting for me to go test things out Cheesy

2 Questions:
who receives the fees?
i understand there is no miner, there is no blockchain, it is DAG (i have skimmed through the concept before). so who is receiving the fees we include in our transactions?

Bittrex for example shows the volume as a decimal number for example:
Volume: 0.09344973
price: 0.20099963BTC
is the top open ask order there
how much is 0.09344973 in byte terms? 09344973 byte or 093449730 byte as G (Giga) is 10^9
(from previous comment i think the second one is true, but just want to confirm)














 

 

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July 21, 2017, 05:44:25 PM
 #15

thanks a lot. this was very helpful, specially since i am a bit scared of testing new stuff. right now my Bytes are sitting in the wallet waiting for me to go test things out Cheesy

2 Questions:
who receives the fees?
i understand there is no miner, there is no blockchain, it is DAG (i have skimmed through the concept before). so who is receiving the fees we include in our transactions?

The witnesses each receive part of it, and the first regular user to reference the transaction receives another part of it.

Bittrex for example shows the volume as a decimal number for example:
Volume: 0.09344973
price: 0.20099963BTC
is the top open ask order there
how much is 0.09344973 in byte terms? 09344973 byte or 093449730 byte as G (Giga) is 10^9
(from previous comment i think the second one is true, but just want to confirm)

Could you post a screenshot? I don't see a 'volume' column in the bittrex ASKS table.

I see these 4 columns:

 * ASK (BTC): the ask price, in BTC per GB
 * SIZE (GBYTE): the number of GB being offered for sale
 * TOTAL: the corresponding price in BTC (column 1 multiplied by column 2)
 * SUM: the cumulative sum of column 3, representing the market depth at this price, in BTC

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July 22, 2017, 08:26:10 AM
 #16

How is it possible to know which is the price trend of GBB vs GB? We know from Slack the market prices of today, but how to understand the trend? Nobody has collected historic data of price relation?

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July 22, 2017, 11:07:14 AM
 #17

Could you post a screenshot? I don't see a 'volume' column in the bittrex ASKS table.

I see these 4 columns:

 * ASK (BTC): the ask price, in BTC per GB
 * SIZE (GBYTE): the number of GB being offered for sale
 * TOTAL: the corresponding price in BTC (column 1 multiplied by column 2)
 * SUM: the cumulative sum of column 3, representing the market depth at this price, in BTC

i was not using their website, i was reading it from my bot GUI which is getting it through the API call Grin
https://bittrex.com/api/v1.1/public/getorderbook?market=BTC-GBYTE&type=both&depth=50
and i am calling the "Quantity" field as "volume" and "rate" as "price" because it makes more sense to me in the table.
Code:
"sell":[{"Quantity":24.72532665,"Rate":0.19500000},{...},...]














 

 

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July 24, 2017, 07:10:41 PM
 #18

Question:  AFAIU, for BlackByte transactions you need to pay fees in  Bytes (not black). Does it not compromise anonymity of the Blackbyte transaction? that is, is it not possible to see where the fee is coming from?
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July 24, 2017, 09:13:21 PM
 #19

I've cleaned up this thread a bit, to keep it compact.

How is it possible to know which is the price trend of GBB vs GB? We know from Slack the market prices of today, but how to understand the trend? Nobody has collected historic data of price relation?
Check this: Byteballs ::: Buying & Selling & Trading.
In short, the value of GBYTE went up when Bittrex added it, GBB lacks behind as it's difficult to trade. Say from 1 GBYTE = 6 GBB to now more like 60 GBB.
I'm still working on my trading thread, but it's not really a priority and won't replace the need for an exchange.


Question:  AFAIU, for BlackByte transactions you need to pay fees in  Bytes (not black). Does it not compromise anonymity of the Blackbyte transaction? that is, is it not possible to see where the fee is coming from?
You can see which address paid a fee to transfer a private asset. You can't see which private asset that is, or where it was sent.
From the Whitepaper:

Quote
Note that spend proof for issue transaction does not include any blinding factor. As such it is possible to learn that a coin was issued, but the recipient of the coin is still hidden from third parties. Also, for transfer transactions, since the payer knows the blinding factor, he can calculate the spend proof that’ll be published when the coin is spent. This means that he can know when the payee spends the coin, but he will not see the recipient(s) nor the new blinding factor(s) – and hence will not be able to track the coin any further.

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August 12, 2017, 12:19:34 PM
 #20

There is now a bot for Blackbytes trading: AxV6ohKFORqIGfGqCZgjK1HlL8vBiNltcWWaI0Rc9yN+@byteball.fr/bb#0000
You can sell or buy batches of Blackbytes chatting with this bot.

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