USA Debt Repayable

[ibminer]

--snip--
As for a US dollar collapse??? I see it only happening if China sells its USD holdings. This scenario is not likely at all. So, no USD collapse.
--snip--

Unlikely scenarios seem to be happening more and more these days.

Foul whisp'rings are abroad. Unnatural deeds
Do breed unnatural troubles. Infected minds
To their deaf pillows will discharge their secrets.

See what fictional books do to people's minds...
I want to hear YOUR words. 

[crumbcake]

--snip--
As for a US dollar collapse??? I see it only happening if China sells its USD holdings. This scenario is not likely at all. So, no USD collapse.
--snip--

Unlikely scenarios seem to be happening more and more these days.

Foul whisp'rings are abroad. Unnatural deeds
Do breed unnatural troubles. Infected minds
To their deaf pillows will discharge their secrets.

See what fictional books do to people's minds...
I want to hear YOUR words. 

Taken out of context ->  different meaning (google Duchamp ready-made )

[TheGovernedSelf]

Imo, debt should be completely wiped. You know how big the economy would boom if debt was wiped?

You realise this wipes out an equal amount of savings?

Oh well. They weren't doing anything useful with it anyway.

[Hawker]

Imo, debt should be completely wiped. You know how big the economy would boom if debt was wiped?

You realise this wipes out an equal amount of savings?

Oh well. They weren't doing anything useful with it anyway.

Its not your money to take - if people save up, there has to be a damn good reason to confiscate the money.

[TheGovernedSelf]

Imo, debt should be completely wiped. You know how big the economy would boom if debt was wiped?

You realise this wipes out an equal amount of savings?

Oh well. They weren't doing anything useful with it anyway.

Its not your money to take - if people save up, there has to be a damn good reason to confiscate the money.

No one is "taking" it, the money's value is simply evaporating, and anyone who reads the news and has half a brain should have realized this years ago. Bond and CD holders today are being paid -1 to -5% interest and I expect these negative interest rates to accelerate later this decade.

[Hawker]

Imo, debt should be completely wiped. You know how big the economy would boom if debt was wiped?

You realise this wipes out an equal amount of savings?

Oh well. They weren't doing anything useful with it anyway.

Its not your money to take - if people save up, there has to be a damn good reason to confiscate the money.

No one is "taking" it, the money's value is simply evaporating, and anyone who reads the news and has half a brain should have realized this years ago. Bond and CD holders today are being paid -1 to -5% interest and I expect these negative interest rates to accelerate later this decade.

I agree.  But that is a voluntary evaporation - people choose to put their a percentage of their savings into government bonds and they know full well that in real terms that percentage will shirink in value.  Wiping government debt would mean outright confiscation of savings which is what I'd oppose.

[kodo]

We are so in debt Im not even sure if its possible to get out.. We will have to see.

[kodo]

Our national debt is unpayable at this point. Might as well nuke china and get the war thats coming over with.. 

[Adrian-x]

Our national debt is unpayable at this point. Might as well nuke china and get the war thats coming over with.. 

what! We live in a global village, corporation is the key to making the whole bigger than the sum of all the parts. Fix the problem; you don't need to kill anyone, that doesn't solve the cause of the problem.

Ps I know it was said in jest, But killing people is a touchy subject for many, the Jewish people were the producers in Europe before WWII and killing them wasn't a solution.

[farfiman]

Our national debt is unpayable at this point. Might as well nuke china and get the war thats coming over with.. 

The war is here already. It's not manifested  in 100,000's of soldiers hacking at each other ,  at the moment its economic
and political maneuvers in the middle east and africa.

[xavier]

--snip--

I see in the future society will continue to evolve (ignoring any wars or conflicts *).. will continue to evolve so that we are each more independent of centralized control structures - corporates and politicians. The internet has been the most recent iteration of this, a technology that removes power from corporates and gives it to the individual - in this case the power for easy access to information principally, but many other powers besides. Bitcoin is the latest iteration of the internet , but is even more disruptive than the internet itself. In the future - ignoring any wars as stated - , human nature (greed, corruption, dishonest) will not change, but those in power will have less influence on the individual, so such weaknesses amongst our politicians will have less effect on the average citizen. Bitcoin is removing the power of control over us from central bankers. The financial crisis / events of the last 5 years have shown politicians and central bankers so be utterly incapable of managing the economy. It is therefore fitting that Bitcoin should come about at this time to relieve them of repeating the same mistakes that have caused this crisis. Bitcoin is the internet's replacement to the fed. I have no doubt that this technology will one day replace all currencies. With the world using bitcoin (or some more technologically advanced replacement), hopefully this financial crisis and the devastation caused by it may no longer feature in human history.

After writing the above post, I stumbled across this book "Aftershock". Anybody familiar with this? IMO, it is the only book I have read that acutely summarizes the world economic situation. Having read it, I must admit I feel alot less fearful about the future. I recommend everyone read it also.

http://bit.ly/19Mlzcd

Here's a quote from the book (it was published in 2009, so the author probably did not know about Bitcoin at the time). Read from p163 onwards.

I would quote the following sentence in particular:

IMUs will be inflation- free because the system that controls the supply of IMUs will be set up to avoid it.

Here's the full quote. Please remember this book was published in 2009, before Bitcoin was well known.


Driven forward through time by STEP Evolution the next step in the evolution of money will be the development of an international agency (the global equivalent of a international central bank) that manages a single international currency that is entirely electronic. We are not saying this will come quickly or easily, but eventually it will come. In time, old-fashioned cash stashed under the mattress will become as useless as a manual typewriter.

Why a single international currency? Because it will be necessary to avoid repeating the pain of another global Bubblequake. A sin- gle international currency will eliminate the problems with foreign currency exchange, making currency bubbles (like our current dol- lar bubble) impossible. It will also block us from spending our way into huge foreign trade imbalances (like our current international trade deficit bubble). And because a single international currency is the most technologically and economically efficient form of money at this stage of our societal evolution, it eventually becomes the best option.

Will nations resist it every inch of the way? Absolutely . . . for a while. But eventually, they will come around, for the same rea- sons evolution always occurs: because it beats the alternative. In the long view of STEP Evolution, a global economy requires a global currency.

Why an electronic currency? Because money—like every other human technology since the Stone Age—evolves through time fol- lowing the STEP Evolution principles of “Material Substitution” and “Energy Substitution” (which we explain in more detail at www .aftershockeconomy.com/substitution).
Certainly we have the beginnings of an all-electronic monetary system already in place. Credit cards, debit cards, electronic checks, checks by phone, checks by fax, direct deposit, and online banking are all beginning to supplant some of our cash and check payments because they are so much more efficient. Moving cash around in a big, money bucket brigade is expensive, requiring banks, ATMs, armored cars and security personnel. The cost of cash maintenance and cash crimes drains a society’s productivity.

Remember those big bags of gold coins we don’t bother lugging around anymore? Remember the high cost of mining, protecting, and using gold? Sooner or later, people do prefer cheaper, eas- ier, and better—especially when the consequences of not evolving become very, very painful, as they are in the Bubblequake and in the coming Aftershock.

It may be hard to believe we will ever have a single international currency, given how fond individual nations are of their own forms of money. But when you look at how far we’ve already come, it’s easier to see that we’re much more than half way there now.
Imagine how hard it would have been 2,000 years ago to con- vince hordes of Germanic tribal chiefs wrapped in bear skins that their warring tribes of 10,000 or more people would eventually come together to form a single European Union in the twentieth century, with a single European currency, the euro. Given how far we’ve already come, it’s only a matter of time before Japan, the United States, and the European Community come together, too, to create a common international currency.

Again, we are not saying this because that is what we hope will happen. This is not about wishful thinking or pushing a political agenda. In the big picture of STEP Evolution, evolving to a single electronic currency is just a matter of time. Sooner or later, unless the sun fails to shine, all other less-efficient options will simply be eliminated.

The natural solution to the Bubblequake and Aftershock will feel as unnatural to many Americans as giving up baseball. But sooner or later, major social and political changes, including a single, global electronic currency, operated by a central administrative agency, are in the cards for us. After the temporary global mega-depression, an international electronic currency, operated by a central adminis- trative agency, will eliminate foreign exchange problems. We don’t know what this new currency will be named, but for convenience, let’s call it “IMU” (pronounced EYE-mu), short for International Monetary Unit.

At first, the IMU will simply be a merger of the euro, the dollar and the yen. Other strong democracies, such as Canada or Australia will then join. Then use of the IMU spreads around the world since a country does not have to be a member of the governing group in order to use the IMU. IMUs will be far cheaper for society to administer than cash. There’ll be no expensive bills to print or coins to mint. There’ll be no cash to steal. IMUs will be inflation- free because the system that controls the supply of IMUs will be set up to avoid it.

Many people, including some Americans, will oppose the com- ing evolutionary transition to a new form of money, but change is inevitable. When America’s bubble economy fully pops, and people ride the roller coaster from denial to panic to anger to understanding, the first thing they’ll do is blame the politicians. Of course, it will be too late to punish the politicians who created the problem.

[Kluge]

Our national debt is unpayable at this point. Might as well nuke china and get the war thats coming over with.. 

what! We live in a global village, corporation is the key to making the whole bigger than the sum of all the parts. Fix the problem; you don't need to kill anyone, that doesn't solve the cause of the problem.

Ps I know it was said in jest, But killing people is a touchy subject for many, the Jewish people were the producers in Europe before WWII and killing them wasn't a solution.

Jewish people owned the producers prior to WWII. In labor camps, they were producers. It's a common misconception.

The US as a whole is in a similar situation insofar as that, and a much less extreme version of fate will likely be shared. Though.... that falls apart pretty quickly -- US citizens probably won't be starving en masse, though the many foreign manufacturing companies taking over failing US businesses probably won't be employing the sick, gypsy, or elderly any time soon, and a close-enough-to-bankrupt USG will take away the social safety nets..... no cattle trains, though.

Definitely no executions, low-value high-mortality medical experiments, or starvation of the fit, either... as a global community, we're smarter, now. We know how valuable producers are.

[Kluge]

What the fuck, guys? Y'all are going to let that end the thread? 

[farfiman]

What the fuck, guys? Y'all are going to let that end the thread? 

The thread was about the USA paying back it's debt ( will never happen) and ended
with your statement about the jews......  we could get back on track and continue this

[worldinacoin]

It is definitely possible for the USA govt to repay back the debt.  Do not forget that the debt is in USD.  The govt can theoretically print all the money it needs to pay off the debt.  That's the advantage of being a reserve currency.   But I guess there will be stagflation in the least.

[ibminer]

... Although I do tend to be pessimistic as well. I do not care much about the financials in this situation, as I don't believe there is much hope from this end.

Politicians have lost their way in the US. Greed, corruption, evil - yes they have all existed for a long time, but they are out of control and in an elevated state. Maybe due to increased population, increased communication/understanding of the world (internet), maybe due to just natural progression - if your not caught or stopped (they usually aren't) - you are going to keep getting worse. Think about how many studies have been done on humans and human behavior... not to mention the numerous studies we probably don't know about. They know how people think, how they act, what they respond to... they know what to say, when to say it, how to say it, where to say it, etc. They are our 'physical' Gods. They have people down to a science.

All people are 'different' and have uniquenesses about them, but IMO there are several classifications of humans, potentially tens of thousands or more. You can call it stereotyping or whatever you want, you can call them democrats, republicans, communists, socialists, etc. This is not how I personally would be naming the classifications... but the fact is that there are people who act/think alike and follow the same ideologies that contribute to who we are as humans and a society and can coincide with how we act, what we do, who we talk to, etc. Albeit, these are human taught classifications and not really something we were born with.

They know what each classification responds to, what they want to hear, what they like/don't like, what they forget, what their interests are, what they buy into, etc. For federal-level politicians, the trick is how to say what you need to say or do what you need to do to a particular group or figure out a way to say something that appeals to multiple classifications, and do it without the other group(s) knowing/hearing about it (assume we would call this being politically correct? - no clue why political correctness even exists)... and this is not very easily done anymore with the creation of the internet and technology in general (mobile phones, video cameras, etc) that catch everything anyone is saying about anything...but its not entirely impossible. Assuming they were not able to bribe there way out of the situation, the strategy right now when you get caught in a situation like this seems to be to apologize, disappear for a while, then come back. (because they know we typically 'forget', based on the aforementioned studies) I assume they will ultimately achieve some type of internet regulations or government oversight to control what information goes 'viral' and what information may be deemed a threat to national security.

For me, if you believe they have knowledge about people and have ways of accessing it... it is scary to think what government developers/hackers could do with a dataset of information like this. Does a database like this exist would be the question (or is it being created)... and where would you put that much information? Who knows... maybe in the new 'spy center' complex that has been established by the NSA to house data/information/servers that will be linked to all of the intelligence 'listening posts' around the world. With four 25,000 sq. feet halls with wall-to-wall rows/racks of servers, you don't really think they are only listening and data mining stuff that is related to terrorism or national security, do you?  

So, is the USA debt repayable?   It doesn't matter... we are all doomed  


I feel like I have slipped passed the line of a rational individual to a conspiracy theorist. I am going to go crawl into a cave now...    

I just want to re-quote my post from last month... maybe, at least, the last paragraph has more meaning now?    

[Crypt_Current]

... Although I do tend to be pessimistic as well. I do not care much about the financials in this situation, as I don't believe there is much hope from this end.

Politicians have lost their way in the US. Greed, corruption, evil - yes they have all existed for a long time, but they are out of control and in an elevated state. Maybe due to increased population, increased communication/understanding of the world (internet), maybe due to just natural progression - if your not caught or stopped (they usually aren't) - you are going to keep getting worse. Think about how many studies have been done on humans and human behavior... not to mention the numerous studies we probably don't know about. They know how people think, how they act, what they respond to... they know what to say, when to say it, how to say it, where to say it, etc. They are our 'physical' Gods. They have people down to a science.

All people are 'different' and have uniquenesses about them, but IMO there are several classifications of humans, potentially tens of thousands or more. You can call it stereotyping or whatever you want, you can call them democrats, republicans, communists, socialists, etc. This is not how I personally would be naming the classifications... but the fact is that there are people who act/think alike and follow the same ideologies that contribute to who we are as humans and a society and can coincide with how we act, what we do, who we talk to, etc. Albeit, these are human taught classifications and not really something we were born with.

They know what each classification responds to, what they want to hear, what they like/don't like, what they forget, what their interests are, what they buy into, etc. For federal-level politicians, the trick is how to say what you need to say or do what you need to do to a particular group or figure out a way to say something that appeals to multiple classifications, and do it without the other group(s) knowing/hearing about it (assume we would call this being politically correct? - no clue why political correctness even exists)... and this is not very easily done anymore with the creation of the internet and technology in general (mobile phones, video cameras, etc) that catch everything anyone is saying about anything...but its not entirely impossible. Assuming they were not able to bribe there way out of the situation, the strategy right now when you get caught in a situation like this seems to be to apologize, disappear for a while, then come back. (because they know we typically 'forget', based on the aforementioned studies) I assume they will ultimately achieve some type of internet regulations or government oversight to control what information goes 'viral' and what information may be deemed a threat to national security.

For me, if you believe they have knowledge about people and have ways of accessing it... it is scary to think what government developers/hackers could do with a dataset of information like this. Does a database like this exist would be the question (or is it being created)... and where would you put that much information? Who knows... maybe in the new 'spy center' complex that has been established by the NSA to house data/information/servers that will be linked to all of the intelligence 'listening posts' around the world. With four 25,000 sq. feet halls with wall-to-wall rows/racks of servers, you don't really think they are only listening and data mining stuff that is related to terrorism or national security, do you?  

So, is the USA debt repayable?   It doesn't matter... we are all doomed  


I feel like I have slipped passed the line of a rational individual to a conspiracy theorist. I am going to go crawl into a cave now...    

I just want to re-quote my post from last month... maybe, at least, the last paragraph has more meaning now?    

No; disgruntled / angsty youth rebel / mis-directed / unfocused stoner ramblings.

[ibminer]

No; disgruntled / angsty youth rebel / mis-directed / unfocused stoner ramblings.

Thank you for the constructive criticism.

[farlack]

2/3 of the debt is owned by the population, the other 1/3 come and get it