$1,000,000 for a Bitcoin?

[bitsalame]

Ok, would you mind detailing how Bitcoin is more efficient/suited at laundering money than cash?
Otherwise I have the impression that I'll have to ask you to re-define everything.
(For example the traceability issue. Bitcoin is the pinnacle of traceability.)

Very easy, there is no paper trail and there are no regulations in any economic transaction.
So traditional methods for laundering fiat can be applied even more effectively in the world of bitcoins.
Besides that, you can use mixers and tor to make yourself absolutely anonymous.

It is not only easier, but way cheaper to launder money in bitcoins.

[FinShaggy]

Ok, would you mind detailing how Bitcoin is more efficient/suited at laundering money than cash?
Otherwise I have the impression that I'll have to ask you to re-define everything.
(For example the traceability issue. Bitcoin is the pinnacle of traceability.)

Bitcoins don't attach themselves to credit cards (which are linked to you), or social security numbers. And with Bitcoins you don't have to do something risky process if you want to lauder it. You just mix the coins.

Ex:
With real money, you rob a bank and you have to buy crack and sell it to get new bills.
With bitcoins, you can sell crack on the Silk Road and rob someone through Nigerian prince type email scams, and no one would ever find you.

[Frozenlock]

I think you're are conflating cash with payment systems.

[Odalv]

Ok, would you mind detailing how Bitcoin is more efficient/suited at laundering money than cash?
Otherwise I have the impression that I'll have to ask you to re-define everything.
(For example the traceability issue. Bitcoin is the pinnacle of traceability.)

Bitcoins don't attach themselves to credit cards (which are linked to you), or social security numbers. And with Bitcoins you don't have to do something risky process if you want to lauder it. You just mix the coins.

Ex:
With real money, you rob a bank and you have to buy crack and sell it to get new bills.
With bitcoins, you can sell crack on the Silk Road and rob someone through Nigerian prince type email scams, and no one would ever find you.

Just create few anonymous accounts on Gox (and other exhanges) and few e-wallets. Then move coins exchange, e-wallet other exchange other e-wallet and then paper wallet. (you can create 100 paper wallets)

[bitsalame]

I think you're are conflating cash with payment systems.

Maybe you don't really understand what laundering is.
If you have a few bucks in cash (as in paper currency) no laundering is needed.

If you have few thousand dollars in dirty money it is absolutely unnecessary, but if you have hundreds of thousands of dollars in cash you can't simply use it because the IRS will eventually get you and you will have no excuses to justify a luxurious lifestyle even if you have been using cash.
Being millionaire off the grid is a primary cause of suspicion of illegal activities, in fact it is a noob mistake.

What laundering does is to legitimize dirty money INTO the financial system as a legitimate income.

Laundering has nothing to do with anonymity, the very purpose is to give your real identity with a accountable and legitimate justification of the extra income.
Also laundering has nothing to do with evading/avoiding taxes, in fact, typically laundering also involves paying taxes to not flag yourself... if you want to add tax avoidance in the combo, well that is an extra.

Now going back to the question: does the bitcoins help in laundering? absolutely yes.

[Frozenlock]

I think you're are conflating cash with payment systems.

Maybe you don't really understand what laundering is.
(...)

What laundering does is to legitimize dirty money INTO the financial system as a legitimate income.
(...)
Now going back to the question: does the bitcoins help in laundering? absolutely yes.

How?
If I have a million bucks worth of bitcoin, how can I move it into the financial
system as legitimate income, more easily than with cash? 

[Frozenlock]

I see Bitcoin as a tool to facilitate moving money around (across borders, for example).

But I don't see how it makes it easier to launder money.
And that's without the fact that presently the market is way too small for that.

[FinShaggy]

I think you're are conflating cash with payment systems.

Maybe you don't really understand what laundering is.
(...)

What laundering does is to legitimize dirty money INTO the financial system as a legitimate income.
(...)
Now going back to the question: does the bitcoins help in laundering? absolutely yes.

How?
If I have a million bucks worth of bitcoin, how can I move it into the financial
system as legitimate income, more easily than with cash? 

By mixing it, then buying things on the Silk Road and Bitcoin stores. The whole point is to NOT use cash.
An if you have a Bitcoin store of your own you could launder it by buying products from yourself at an inflated price. And no one would ever know that the coins cam from you.

[FinShaggy]

And then the tax guys ask what income or funds you used to buy all that stuff. I'm not sure about other jurisdictions but here if you cannot or will not answer that question conclusively you lose. It's sad but they switched it from innocent till proven guilty to the other way around.

And you say that you got it from your store, say you bought it and show some transactions.
If you have your own bitcoin company and millions of dollars in coins, you can afford to put those coins in a few different countries, and have people buy stuff from you slowly with your own coins so you get all your money back. All of it would look completely legal...

This is how laundering works. But as I have been trying to point out, it's just better with bitcoins.

[FinShaggy]

And the tax guys don't come unless you accept/use fiat or deposit/withdraw $10,000 into/from a bank account.

[FinShaggy]

And the tax guys don't come unless you accept/use fiat or deposit/withdraw $10,000 into/from a bank account.

Or drive a Porsche Cayman, while not reporting an income or sufficient assets.

You know where to get a Porshe for Bitcoins?

And you are being stupid. As I said, you create a fake business to launder the coins through. So all the earnings are accounted for, you could even at that point turn it into cash as long as you paid taxes.

[bitsalame]

And the tax guys don't come unless you accept/use fiat or deposit/withdraw $10,000 into/from a bank account.

You are talking about the CTRs in bank deposits to prevent smurfing.
You clearly ignore about the criteria for SARs, and let alone IRS audits.

And the tax guys don't come unless you accept/use fiat or deposit/withdraw $10,000 into/from a bank account.

Or drive a Porsche Cayman, while not reporting an income or sufficient assets.

You know where to get a Porshe for Bitcoins?

And you are being stupid. As I said, you create a fake business to launder the coins through. So all the earnings are accounted for, you could even at that point turn it into cash as long as you paid taxes.

The news: http://www.businessinsider.com/texas-family-we-sold-this-porsche-last-night-for-300-bitcoins-2013-4

The actual thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=143722.0

Stop calling names when you are the one lacking knowledge here, you are just making a fool of yourself.

[FinShaggy]

Stop calling names when you are the one lacking knowledge here, you are just making a fool of yourself.

I didn't call anyone names, I just said you were being stupid by ignoring facts. You are making a fool of yourself by continuing this discussion after you have been proven wrong over and over by multiple people.

[bitsalame]

Stop calling names when you are the one lacking knowledge here, you are just making a fool of yourself.

I didn't call anyone names, I just said you were being stupid by ignoring facts. You are making a fool of yourself by continuing this discussion after you have been proven wrong over and over by multiple people.

Proven? You are using words very lightly, kid.

[FinShaggy]

Proven? You are using words very lightly, kid.

No I'm not. I explained how laundering works, then explained how bitcoins make it better. And you continue to be stupid. That's not an insult and if you are taking it as one, maybe you should stop doing it.

[Frozenlock]

Proven? You are using words very lightly, kid.

No I'm not. I explained how laundering works, then explained how bitcoins make it better.

No you didn't.

"<Money laundering explanation>... and then it's easier with bitcoin."

You're missing the WHY. Why is it easier with Bitcoin?

You started by saying Bitcoin can't be traced, contrary to cash (which isn't true):

I bet a few years ago you would have been impressed to see an anonymous, global, laundering system get accepted by the public...

You mean like cash?  

Nope. Cash can be traced.
That's why laundering exists.

And then you explain your laundering scheme:

And then the tax guys ask what income or funds you used to buy all that stuff. I'm not sure about other jurisdictions but here if you cannot or will not answer that question conclusively you lose. It's sad but they switched it from innocent till proven guilty to the other way around.

And you say that you got it from your store, say you bought it and show some transactions.
If you have your own bitcoin company and millions of dollars in coins, you can afford to put those coins in a few different countries, and have people buy stuff from you slowly with your own coins so you get all your money back. All of it would look completely legal...

This is how laundering works. But as I have been trying to point out, it's just better with bitcoins.

I know how laundering works. What I'm not getting is how it would be easier with bitcoins.
"if you have your own bitcoin company and millions of dollars in coins..."
If I had my own dollars company and millions of dollars in cash, I don't see how it would be different.

[FinShaggy]

No I'm not. I explained how laundering works, then explained how bitcoins make it better.

No you didn't.

"<Money laundering explanation>... and then it's easier with bitcoin."

You're missing the WHY. Why is it easier with Bitcoin?

Bullshit. I gave you plenty of reasons.

1. Can't be traced to a person
2. Easily mixed/re laundered
3. No taxes, so as long as you just deal in Bitcoin you are doing everything by the book
4. Accepted in nations all over the world

I'm sure I can find more if I look back, that's just off the top of my head.

[bitsalame]

I will leave it there. If I give details it will become an advocacy of crime.
I have no intentions in making a tutorial.

[johnyj]

What laundering does is to legitimize dirty money INTO the financial system as a legitimate income.

I always think that money laundering is an excuse that banks made to maintain their control of every one's money

Central banks are printing money out of nothing every day, this must be the most illicit means to get money in the world but no one cares...

The only illicit means to get a large sum of money that I can think of is robbing a bank. Again, comparing with what FED is doing, those are trivial

It is very difficult to precisely define money laundering, almost all transactions are neutral. The banks lost their money in a robbery due to their own security weakness and they should buy insurance to cover it. They should not utilize their advantage of transaction processing to get back their lost money

And for terrorism, this is even more unconvincing, the boston terrorist had not made any money laundering but still detonated the bomb

Bribery could also be a source, but it's even more difficult to define what is a bribery and what is a marketing effort, many businesses contain certain level of bribery, the discounted price itself is a bribery already

For bitcoin, due to the very high volatility of the exchange price, it will not be suitable for use as a money laundering tool, casino is a much better practice worldwide, typically used by corrupted high officials in banks/governments

I believe, money laundering is more or less a political tool targeting those high officials in the banks, limiting their ability to transfer billions of dollars between each other as will, while almost meaningless for normal people

[David Rabahy]

For the record (I've nullified the contest); e^log(sqrt(sqrt(e^pi)^sqrt(pi^e)^sqrt(e)^sqrt(pi)))/3 -- my guess is I could have given a thousand digits and it would not have been possible to predict the expression.  In my opinion, predicting if/when the exchange rate will hit $1,000,000 is much harder.