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Author Topic: Theymos's list of altcoins with some technical merit  (Read 33253 times)
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August 19, 2017, 04:25:49 PM
 #81

I also think IOTA is interesting but still has to prove if it really works

IOTA can prove it doesn’t work at any time by removing the centralized servers known as the Coordinator which is otherwise enforcing the convergence of the chain.

So why would they risk it? Wiser to continue the deception until some other technology comes along that they can copy and transition to.
Those holding IOTA are motivated to help shill and perpetuate the scam. The easy way to corrupt men is to entice them to profit on selling lies. The sad state of humanity.

Nxt (first working Proof of Stake implementation without centralized checkpoints)

The only reason it did not blow up is because the stake in Nxt is centralized.
PoS does not converge if 51% of the stake is not controlled by an oligarchy to enforce that the “nothing-at-stake” converges on a single chain.

I regurgitate this from a rough draft of an upcoming document not written by myself (publicly available on the Internet) where this is explained in more detail.
That document also seems to discredit PoS and PoW convincingly, at least in my non-expert interpretation.

The methodology of this scam evident in both IOTA and Nxt is create some technobabble BS that n00bs don’t realize is irrelevant because the system is centralized.
The functioning of those systems demonstrates nothing about the correctness of said technobabble.
The technobabble is a marketing gimmick.
The marketing side is to entice many men to spread the lies by selling them 1% of the tokens cheap, while keeping 99% for the originators of the scam.

NEM (improved PoS algorithm called "Proof of importance", not a big deal but may be OK for 0.1 points as it's a very good option for small coins

NEM was evidently a scam where the insiders pretended that there were 1000s of users who they distributed the NEM tokens in an air drop.
Those who argue there is no proof of the scam, take note that the insiders refused to use Facebook and other verification, and instead required only a BCT account.
So they were just distributing tokens to themselves via their 1000s of sock puppet accounts.

PoI is just another variant of PoS. It only works because the stake of NEM is centralized.
All of these cryptocurrencies exist to extract money from greater fools to the insiders.
None of these cryptocurrencies are real in any way.

Again I am regurgitating what I have read in a document written by another.

Bitshares (pegged assets)

Pegging is never stable long-term because there is always leakage against any such paradigm via externalities such as shorting. This was explained in a Pastebin.

Decred (interesting PoS/PoW combination)

These result in the worst attributes of each, combining to make something less secure than either alone.

As I recall, Theymos’ prior forays into analogous ideas for merging PoS and PoW were handily rebuked with detailed technical explanation. Perhaps he could revisit those threads to read posts.

As for the scam aspect of it, isn’t it well documented already what they did with the ICO, Jinn Labs, and besides everyone knows that Come-from-Beyond originates from the Nxt scam wherein the entire money supply was awarded to 73 founders. IOTA is in the same breed of scams being perpetuated over and over again here.

The NXT "scam" was open to everyone, the "founders' list" was not limited to insiders. If you want, you can call me a shill, but please read the original announcement thread from 2013 before you make accusations. This "ICO" (one of the first of all) was running about 2 months and everyone could participate, only that it had only limited success. These weren't ERC20 times where even insignificant projects can get easily tens of thousands of dollars.

Public ICOs are a scam, because the insiders buy the ICO from themselves pretending there is more interest and buyers than there really are.
With an ongoing scam ICO such as EOS and perhaps Nxt’s 3 month ICO, the insiders recycle the same ETH or BTC and buy the ICO from themselves over and over again.
Even if BTC didn’t move from Nxt address during the ICO period (and it may have, I have not checked), an insider with sufficient BTC can buy it from themselves.

I see someone is adding transactions non-stop.  Is it a stress-testing or a DoS attack?

Or someone thinking they can take all of the nxt for themselves by doing multiple 10k transactions until they reach 1,000,000,000 in their own account. Smiley

73 people who control all the money supply is not a cryptocurrency.
I would characterize that as a private club, except that when it sells on on an exchange, then it is a manipulated system for milking greater fools.
And then @kLee who was supposed to be holding a large portion of the money supply claims it was stolen.
In addition to selling ICOs to oneself, one can also steal funds from himself.
Ask Bitfinex how that works.

The announcement thread of Nxt which you provided a link to, has no technical or specifications in the first several pages.
No one in their right mind would have bought that obviously premeditated sneaky ICO:

So i hand over tons of BTC for a promise that i will get an unproven altcoin, that will probly be worth nothing?

Obvious scam.

Please don't send any money to an account created 4 days ago.


Who when reading that thread will come to the conclusion that Come-from-Beyond is not (or not an accomplice to) BCNext, as evident showing up in the thread from the very start pretending to be a different person offering server resources.
Coincidentally it was a Java program when no one else was coding altcoins in Java, which is the programming language CfB codes in.

http://archive.is/VCka0#selection-277.0-285.316

Quote from: Medium comment
The SEC recently emboldened the scammers and their accomplices with a purposely weak warning, with EU securities regulation also advancing. Note the SEC did point out that those who buy the ICO (and presumably especially those who help shill it) could also be culpable. To wax philosophical, why wouldn’t “Satan” first warn his victims to offer them free will because via their own clear free will can they be enslaved entirely. The weak must be enticed to destroy themselves by their own greed and civilization-destructive (as opposed to constructive) ethics.
IOTA people claim they will remove the coordinator once they have enough users who make transactions. At the moment most people are just buying iota and holding, though they can help the network even by sending forth and back because it will cost nothing.
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August 19, 2017, 11:47:31 PM
 #82

Bitcoin (and the rest of crypto) has almost zero value as a currency...

Seems to me that a trustless, governmentless, unregulatable, peer 2 peer, highly resilient, decentralised method of moving digital cash anywhere in the world has a lot of very real use cases both now and the future.

I hope you are referring to the Shells I mentioned earlier because no crypto matches the above  Huh

I goto get me more Shells tbh; borderless, decentralised, not created by big banks or gov, deflationary (the way we are killing the oceans certain to be less created over time)  Kiss
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August 20, 2017, 03:50:41 AM
 #83

BlockNET ? ahahha scam coin  Cheesy

And i love how the noobs know squat about Litecoin.
If it's a clone then go ahead and mine it with your BTC miners then.
Oh wait.... it's SCRYPT ?
Wait WHAT ?

Hmm what is this SCRYPT the penguin speaks of ?

Oh you mean the new hashing algo launched with Litecoin cloned by a thousand others later on ?
Yup.. the one that was implemented for a REASON.
Hence the creation of Litecoin in the first place.

Why ?

Hmmmmmm.. any ideas pajeets ?

Fairness.
The intention was to even the playing field on mining and it actually succeeded in doing so.
At least for a time..
It was about mining guys.  Roll Eyes

But ya ya.. it's just a clone, so by all means point your BTC miners at it and go nuts LOL

FUD first & ask questions later™
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August 20, 2017, 05:51:44 AM
 #84

BlockNET ? ahahha scam coin  Cheesy

And i love how the noobs know squat about Litecoin.
If it's a clone then go ahead and mine it with your BTC miners then.
Oh wait.... it's SCRYPT ?
Wait WHAT ?

Hmm what is this SCRYPT the penguin speaks of ?

Oh you mean the new hashing algo launched with Litecoin cloned by a thousand others later on ?
Yup.. the one that was implemented for a REASON.
Hence the creation of Litecoin in the first place.

Why ?

Hmmmmmm.. any ideas pajeets ?

Fairness.
The intention was to even the playing field on mining and it actually succeeded in doing so.
At least for a time..
It was about mining guys.  Roll Eyes

But ya ya.. it's just a clone, so by all means point your BTC miners at it and go nuts LOL

I'm curious, why do you say blocknet is a scam when they have a working product?

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August 20, 2017, 05:56:34 AM
 #85

This list is going to spike.  Grin
Theymos got a big name in the crypto world and might pull more investors by creating this.
Thank you and I hope the other list which is not yet researched will be given a chance.
A free advertisement!! Yey!

Now developers, be good and have more features and you might be listed here.  Grin
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August 20, 2017, 10:12:45 AM
 #86

I hope you are referring to the Shells I mentioned earlier because no crypto matches the above  Huh

I goto get me more Shells tbh; borderless, decentralised, not created by big banks or gov, deflationary (the way we are killing the oceans certain to be less created over time)  Kiss

Shells are not fungible, or useful in any real sense as a money.
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August 20, 2017, 11:15:40 AM
Last edit: August 20, 2017, 02:16:08 PM by uelque
 #87

How can Bitcoin be 100 and Litecoin which is a clone is 0?
It doesn't take a genius to see how that doesn't make sense.
In fact, Litecoin is BETTER than Bitcoin in many ways, considering Bitcoin continues stealing from Litecoin innovations. (i.e. Segwit, Lightning Network)
Litecoin is basically a testing coin for Bitcoin.
It is almost as though they planned it from the start to be that way.

I'm sorry to disagree. But maybe you're just too genius not to see it basically for it to doesn't make sense. Based on what theymos said and note, if a coin of family have almost the same technical features, he gave scores to those who seems most major. Well, litecoin is a clone of bitcoin that is why litecoin is zero but it doesn't mean litecoin is nothing compared to bitcoin. Litecoin is zero because he doesn't want to give all of them a merit, he just prefer to give it zero because it is just a clone of bitcoin who is the major. Just as easy as let 0 is equals to clone.

And well maybe litecoin is better than bitcoin. But how are you so sure sir that btc is stealing from litecoin innovation?
Wherein bitcoin is the world's first cryptocurrency.
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August 20, 2017, 12:32:44 PM
 #88

Great analysis but I wonder if a coin is a clone of bitcoin or ethereum, this makes it zero value in any case? Ethereum classic is not a basic clone of ethereum, it brings so-called ethereum's smart contracts and bitcoin's limited supply together

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August 21, 2017, 12:39:00 AM
Last edit: August 21, 2017, 03:53:07 AM by Lawyer
 #89

Definitely take a look at Skycoin. They've been in development since 2012. They are working to improve upon the flaws of Bitcoin as well as creating a decentralized internet powered by their currency.

https://i.imgur.com/MJnz1CO.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Ky29FCL.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/kUPFmkq.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ydVnei5.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/r2Hjeoq.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/xKbYsAy.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/23L4GoO.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/qNhny6X.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ccAymZN.jpg

Bitcoin talk announcement: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=380441.0
Website: http://skycoin.net
GitHub: https://github.com/skycoin
Development Blog: https://blog.skycoin.net/
White papers: https://www.skycoin.net/downloads/#whitepapers

Skywire Miner: http://www.the-blockchain.com/2017/08/12/skycoin-skywire-miner-hardware-next-internet/

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August 21, 2017, 12:44:15 AM
 #90

Definitely take a look at Skycoin. They've been in development since 2012. They are working to improve upon the flaws of Bitcoin as well as creating a decentralized internet powered by their currency.



Bitcoin talk announcement: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=380441.0
Website: http://skycoin.net
GitHub: https://github.com/skycoin
Development Blog: https://blog.skycoin.net/
White papers: https://www.skycoin.net/downloads/#whitepapers

Skywire Miner: http://www.the-blockchain.com/2017/08/12/skycoin-skywire-miner-hardware-next-internet/



Wow heard for the first time. Seems like just another coin struggling to get recognized.
The name and logo is very similar to the than skydrive of microsoft. Any runaway employee of microsoft involved?


.SWG.io.













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FIRST LISTING
CONFIRMED






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August 21, 2017, 12:51:30 AM
Last edit: August 21, 2017, 02:21:29 AM by gnargnar
 #91

 Roll Eyes
hmm looks great.

@Theymos please add Skycoin to your list of candidates.
It fits most of your criterias I believe.

subscribing to this thread
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August 21, 2017, 01:53:42 AM
 #92

Definitely take a look at Skycoin. They've been in development since 2012. They are working to improve upon the flaws of Bitcoin as well as creating a decentralized internet powered by their currency.



Bitcoin talk announcement: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=380441.0
Website: http://skycoin.net
GitHub: https://github.com/skycoin
Development Blog: https://blog.skycoin.net/
White papers: https://www.skycoin.net/downloads/#whitepapers

Skywire Miner: http://www.the-blockchain.com/2017/08/12/skycoin-skywire-miner-hardware-next-internet/



Skycoin also doesn't use traditional POW or POS it has a new consensus protocol.

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August 21, 2017, 01:57:44 AM
 #93

Most altcoins are pure pump-and-dump, but there are a small handful that actually have some technical merit. I will list them here, according to my opinion/understanding.

For each one, I will assign a technical merit/innovation score. On the day of its release, Bitcoin would have had a score of 100, whereas a score of 0 would be a pure pump-and-dump built on stupid gimmicks and other nonsense -- I don't list these at all.

Ethereum

The way Ethereum's Solidity works is very interesting. It feels good to use, like magic. When people first see it, it often blows their minds. And there are several useful things that these super-smart contracts enable. However, Ethereum is built on the same technology as Bitcoin, and this technology has serious real-world issues and constraints. So although Solidity feels unlimited and magical:

- You often need to resort to centralization in order to do things, which completely defeats the point.
- Not all, but most real-world uses of Solidity can be done on Bitcoin, though it's more of a headache (like writing in assembly vs JavaScript).
- The Solidity "magic" hides many real-world issues which can still occur, such as reorgs, network-wide scaling issues, various possible attacks, etc. -- this is the cause of most of the various ETH disasters over the years.

ETH makes the power of cryptocurrency and smart contracts very plain to people, and I appreciate that, but it's not actually very good at being a cryptocurrency or securely/efficiently/reliably executing smart contracts.

Additionally, Ethereum ignored years of prior discussion regarding the safety issues of high-power scripts, and as a result of this and other design decisions, it faces serious security and scaling issues which have really started to become apparent as people try to actually use ETH for real applications. I can't see it surviving without major breaking changes or (more likely) an ever-increasing number of centralization band-aids.

Score: 1

IOTA

The tangle design is interesting and potentially useful, though I have several serious concerns about how it will actually work long-term:

 - In order to achieve lasting, stable scalability, something will need to be done to limit bandwidth. Otherwise you still have the problem that everyone needs to download everyone else's transactions in order to be a trustless node, and this simply doesn't scale no matter what else you do. How can you split the network so that one node can trustlessly ignore a lot of the network's total transactions, but transactions are still possible cross-split? Doing something like splitting the graph into a cycle of semi-separate segments might be possible, but it seems very difficult to do this and maintain security+convergence.
 - With a chain, if miners become evil and rewrite the last 6 blocks or something, everyone is going to notice and be affected, and so a unified response (PoW change, etc.) will be fairly easy. But with a graph, maybe an attacker could just nibble at the edges in such a way that 99.99% of users are able to think "well, it's not really my problem". In fact, it may not even be easily provable that an attack happened at all.
 - I am not convinced that a tangle is stable/convergent/secure in all circumstances. Even if it seems to work under all tests so far, it may well fall apart under a clever but not-too-difficult attack, or perhaps even just on its own. The whole idea that transaction volume is what adds security to the tangle makes me uneasy, since an attacker can always produce unlimited fake transactions, while the network will only produce a "natural" number of transactions unless additional measures are taken to generate good fake transactions.

Possibly due to the IOTA devs sharing similar concerns, IOTA's software currently relies on centralized checkpointing.

Score: 0.1

Monero

Monero is the most widely-used highly-fungible cryptocurrency, and it has a good record for being secure/stable. Fungibility is very useful, and the way it is done in Monero is quite good, though it's not actually mathematically private; it is theoretically possible to get some identifying clues from Monero transactions without breaking any crypto, though it's very difficult, especially after RingCT. Its method of anonymization has very severe scaling downsides, however; Monero makes Bitcoin look Visa-scale.

Score: 4

Zcash

Zcash has the same general goals as Monero. Theoretically, it should have slightly better anonymity than Monero, but you have to trust that the key ceremony was completed honestly, and you also have to trust that there are no flaws in Zcash's more esoteric/experimental cryptography.

Creating/validating anonymous Zcash transactions requires several gigabytes of memory, which is very harmful to centralization and anonymity. If you're the only person who goes to the trouble of creating anonymous transactions, then you'll stick out like a sore thumb.

Zcash's underlying technology may have theoretical scaling advantages; probably better than Monero, and perhaps better than even Bitcoin. But I don't think that this is being exploited at all in the current code, and I haven't been able to find an exact quantification of how good it could be.

Score: 1

Unlisted

I have investigated these coins, and give them a score of zero. Note that when a family of coins have almost the same technical features/properties, I give the one which seems "most major" its proper score, and the rest in that family a score of zero. If you very much prefer a clone's economic properties, tiny changes in constants, etc., then it is maybe not unreasonable for you to prefer that clone instead, but in this post I am concerned with highlighting the most prominent examples of major innovation.

 - Bcash - clone of Bitcoin
 - Bytecoin - very similar to Monero, and Monero is bigger / more active, even though Bytecoin came first
 - CounterParty - an even more inefficient/unscalable way of trying to do what Ethereum does
 - Dogecoin - clone of Bitcoin
 - ETC - clone of ETH
 - Litecoin - clone of Bitcoin
 - NMC - mostly a clone of Bitcoin with some not-very-innovative extras tacked on
 - Ripple - 100% centralized
 - zcoin - clone of zcash

Not yet evaluated

I haven't investigated these enough yet to give them scores.

 - BitBay
 - Blocknet
 - Byteball
 - CloakCoin
 - Dash
 - GameCredits
 - Neo
 - PIVX
 - Waves
 - XEM
 - XtraBYtes
 - Zencash


I'd like to hear what you have to say about Waves right about now.


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August 21, 2017, 03:48:42 AM
 #94

I like this list and have been looking into the technologies behind these other coins as well. I also have on my radar, Byteball, Dash, PIVX and Waves. I believe PIVX is a fork of Dash and Byteball and IOTA are similar in their approach of the "tangle."

What interests me is the solutions that these technologies will need to come up with in order to be decentralized, private, have fast transaction speeds, etc. I believe Ethereum is looking into an off chain solution, the Raiden network to speed up transaction times.
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August 21, 2017, 03:54:05 AM
 #95


Updated post with photos.

https://blog.skycoin.net/statement/skywire-miner-hardware-for-the-next-internet/
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August 21, 2017, 06:27:40 AM
 #96

I'm interested in your NEM review.

You put a lot of value in technical merit, I do think there is more that certain coins can bring to the table.
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August 21, 2017, 12:24:30 PM
 #97

Hi theymos! Just a little message to say that Zcoin is not a clone of Zcash, though that is a common misconception, so don't be too hard on yourself because a lot of people are "labouring under that illusion". But you should def change the OP as it's inaccurate and untruthful. Thanks, love V.
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August 21, 2017, 12:31:53 PM
 #98

Hi theymos! Just a little message to say that Zcoin is not a clone of Zcash, though that is a common misconception, so don't be too hard on yourself because a lot of people are "labouring under that illusion". But you should def change the OP as it's inaccurate and untruthful. Thanks, love V.
https://zcoin.io/zcoin-and-zcash/ should get you "up to speed".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GijBiepK0ws informative video. No need to thank me.
funsponge
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August 21, 2017, 01:10:37 PM
 #99

Cointelegraph, coindesk etc need to stop spread ICO vapourware panic & news and tell people about unique development that has been 3-4 years in the making. These are the altcoins that should get recognition and awareness! Invest in the tech! Not an idea!  For that reason I own Bitbay & from looking at the list now Blocknet
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August 21, 2017, 02:04:22 PM
 #100


Not yet evaluated

I haven't investigated these enough yet to give them scores.

 - BitBay
 - Blocknet
 - Byteball
 - CloakCoin
 - Dash
 - GameCredits
 - Neo
 - PIVX
 - Waves
 - XEM
 - XtraBYtes
 - Zencash

Nice to see BitBay at the top of that list. It's one of the very few cryptos with working tech that's been around for a few years already. As far as I know it's the only one with double-deposit escrow and a fully working marketplace?

Would really like to see how you rate it Smiley
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