TheButterZone ?

[yogg]

Hi folks,

I need to let you know about something bad that happened between TheButterZone and me, and I'd love to hear what you think about it. I'm also not sure this is the right place to post that, it's not a scam accusation but to make users aware of the behaviour of another user.

What happened : I was the only bidder on an auction held by TheButterZone. I admit I didn't notice the terms saying that payment must be made within 8 hours after the end of the auction. This is the first time I meet that requirements, and find it rather unusual to have such strict terms on this forum.
TheButterZone and myself are not in the same timezones. (US / EU). When the PM was sent, I was sleeping and noticed his PM only the day after, when I was at work.

The 15th of August is a non working day in France, and I have made plans. On the 16th I was going straight to work from the 15th, and could only send the transaction the 16th on the evening.
I don't know why I said 48hr, 24hr would suffice, but given TBZ's reaction it's a detail. I wasn't feeling like explaining these details that my life is made of.
My bitcoins are on a Trezor wallet, in a drawer at my place.
I contacted him to know if I can send the transaction 48hr later, and also offered to take a loan immediatly if there was any trouble because of that. His answer was singled lined :

Why do you & everyone else think it's ok to violate the terms of my auctions?

( http://imgur.com/PgSYT95 => to check the entirety of our interactions, ever)

TheButterZone didn't noticed that I was just asking a question to know how he feels about it. I always honor what I owe, in any circumstances. I can understand the nature of Bitcoin and that a package value can be a bit less than the bitcoin used for the deal. When I owe 0.02BTC to someone, I send them. But here given the context (I must send 0.02BTC in exchange of a "mystery box" ..) and how smooth that went, I'd rather send them to Sean's Outpost.

Without trying to solve this out, TheButterZone left me a negative feedback.

So everyone please be careful when dealing with him, you may have unsuspected outcomes when dealing with this user absolutely not looking to solve any issue, and that won't hesitate to flag you for nothing.

[TheButterZone]

All answers in what started to become a pile-on thread:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1954169.0

A bad outcome is unsuspected/unexpected from the violating of auction terms? ROTFLMFAO

Did Satoshi Jesus say it's 100% OK to routinely enter into contracts & violate their terms with impunity, claiming you didn't read them, no matter how few words they contained?

[yogg]

Allright, I'm subscribing to notifications too.

Please stop making false assumptions. Where did you see that I didn't intend to pay you, or that I don't have funds secured ?

Your own words in the past-deadline PM quoted below made it absolutely clear that you didn't have funds secured. Only after the deadline did a BTC1 input get added to 0 balance. If you had funds secured, then you wouldn't have been "a bit short on BTC".

Would that do ? This came from my Trezor.

Message : "This is yogg from bitcointalk and this address held 0.65BTC during the auction."
Address : 1ERTmtjSby7wjZM5WdAZ2yQvKwZyXB6oG6
Signature : H9uCue6ImJrzpWJee50V27YA0EXYPgFgI0DoW3Be+2EnWgfF9exu20WeSDCc+nUe8oFF7620etFolSR7Aq/deMY=

(except to victim-blamers who will always pretend they can't READ ENGLISH).

Like you predict what people WILL say ?

The answer to what is effectively "may I violate the terms of your auction?" is always implicitly (Why do you & everyone else think it's ok to violate the terms of my auctions?) & now explicitly, NO.

Allright. It's not like you mentioned the payment conditions in the PM you wrote me. Not a hello, nothing, except "You win!" in the title, a quote to my winning bid, and a BTC address.

Do you often do business based on implicit terms ? Do you request implicit amounts of money, and then brag around if that's not enough ?
Who else conducts business on implicit terms ? Even Google and Facebook have the courtesy of drawing that stuff in pages of documents, but at least if you read it whole you know what you stand on.

One third-party's involvement (the shipping forwarder minerjones) is quite enough. I don't want my BTC knowingly tainted by loans.

Which loans ? It was on my Trezor for god's sake ! ( https://i.imgur.com/xveV7JS.png )

Hello TheButterZone,

Awesome ! I'm curious to know what's going to be inside.
I am really a bit short on BTC at the time writing. Do you mind if I pay you in 48hr max please ?
Otherwise I still can take a small loan to pay you right now, but soon I won't need to pay any additional interest.

Thank you very much for your comprehension,
Best regards,
yogg

Yes, what didn't I say there..
And where do you see "I do not have the funds secured to pay you" ?
All the above was true. At the time writing, I was short on BTC. I couldn't access my Trezor wallet.

It feels like a trap, really. I started the bidding, I didn't even remember the exact time of the end, and the exact terms.

Please, let's remove the feedbacks we left to each other and tell me what it will take to settle this. Is there something that would make good for my bad, please tell. I can send the 0.02BTC to Sean's Outpost if that satisfies you.
Let's settle this and make some good.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

It's your fault for not reading the auction terms.   Everything else you say about that is an excuse.

Do I think TBZ is being unreasonably hard-assed?  Yes, a little bit.  And given that he's on DT I think the feedback he left is too harsh--but that's him.

People don't read auction terms, period.   The same thing happens on eBay all the time.  The suggestion about bolding that part might be a good idea, but that's not for you to argue at this point.  TBZ suffers fools not at all, and you probably ought to have realized that before bidding.

[TheButterZone]

Allright, I'm subscribing to notifications too.

Please stop making false assumptions. Where did you see that I didn't intend to pay you, or that I don't have funds secured ?

Your own words in the past-deadline PM quoted below made it absolutely clear that you didn't have funds secured. Only after the deadline did a BTC1 input get added to 0 balance. If you had funds secured, then you wouldn't have been "a bit short on BTC".

Would that do ? This came from my Trezor.

Message : "This is yogg from bitcointalk and this address held 0.65BTC during the auction."
Address : 1ERTmtjSby7wjZM5WdAZ2yQvKwZyXB6oG6
Signature : H9uCue6ImJrzpWJee50V27YA0EXYPgFgI0DoW3Be+2EnWgfF9exu20WeSDCc+nUe8oFF7620etFolSR7Aq/deMY=

(except to victim-blamers who will always pretend they can't READ ENGLISH).

Like you predict what people WILL say ?

The answer to what is effectively "may I violate the terms of your auction?" is always implicitly (Why do you & everyone else think it's ok to violate the terms of my auctions?) & now explicitly, NO.

Allright. It's not like you mentioned the payment conditions in the PM you wrote me. Not a hello, nothing, except "You win!" in the title, a quote to my winning bid, and a BTC address.

Do you often do business based on implicit terms ? Do you request implicit amounts of money, and then brag around if that's not enough ?
Who else conducts business on implicit terms ? Even Google and Facebook have the courtesy of drawing that stuff in pages of documents, but at least if you read it whole you know what you stand on.

One third-party's involvement (the shipping forwarder minerjones) is quite enough. I don't want my BTC knowingly tainted by loans.

Which loans ? It was on my Trezor for god's sake ! ( https://i.imgur.com/xveV7JS.png )

Hello TheButterZone,

Awesome ! I'm curious to know what's going to be inside.
I am really a bit short on BTC at the time writing. Do you mind if I pay you in 48hr max please ?
Otherwise I still can take a small loan to pay you right now, but soon I won't need to pay any additional interest.

Thank you very much for your comprehension,
Best regards,
yogg

Yes, what didn't I say there..
And where do you see "I do not have the funds secured to pay you" ?
All the above was true. At the time writing, I was short on BTC. I couldn't access my Trezor wallet.

It feels like a trap, really. I started the bidding, I didn't even remember the exact time of the end, and the exact terms.

A Trezor inaccessible at deadline countdown does not equal funds secured for payment. Needing to "take a small loan" because you are "a bit short on BTC at the time" as YOU said, does not equal funds secured for payment.

Trap contracts are pages & pages, many hundreds if not thousands of words, including legalese. Mine was, according to https://wordcounter.net/ : 110 words (from "USA" to "hours" - if you count the entire OP, 172 words).

And, unsurprisingly, you revised history of what I PMed you first of all:

It's not like you mentioned the payment conditions in the PM you wrote me. Not a hello, nothing, except "You win!" in the title, a quote to my winning bid, and a BTC address.

"nothing"?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1954169.0

0.02BTC

17WAyg8s1vST4XRqkYXtKsWCSGSYJpHC9c please.

See that link at the top of my PM (of course not, nobody can ever read what I type, apparently)? That's to my OP, which is forum-timestamped showing that it was not edited after your bid. If I had quoted my OP in the PM, I could have edited my terms there, to try to pass those off as the actual terms. I only quoted what couldn't be edited at the quote source.

Please, let's remove the feedbacks we left to each other and tell me what it will take to settle this. Is there something that would make good for my bad, please tell. I can send the 0.02BTC to Sean's Outpost if that satisfies you.
Let's settle this and make some good.

My #1 goal is to liquidate my inventory, so:
1. Please ask Sean's Outpost to select around BTC0.02 worth of items from my inventory (reading the descriptions in full, not just looking at the photos) at https://instagram.com/thebutterzone (shipping will count towards the BTC0.02, just like my mystery boxes) that they can use, and give me their shipping address
2. I'll review their selections & calculate cheapest shipping to their address
3. I'll confirm to Sean's Outpost the items+shipping that adds up to around BTC0.02
4. I'll copy/paste that exchange to you (or we could preferably do multi-recipient/Reply-All PMs/emails from start to finish)
5. You'll confirm & pay me BTC0.02
6. I'll in-kind donate the items to Sean's Outpost in your name, & change your feedback type to positive
7. You'll get a donation receipt from Sean's Outpost & claim it as a tax deduction?

ETA: Any eligible US-registered charity (that I can look up on https://apps.irs.gov/app/eos/ ) may be substituted for Sean's Outpost into the steps above - if they're in San Diego County, CA, shipping won't be necessary, I'll just deliver. Many say they generically accept in-kind donations, or publish wishlists for specific in-kind donations, for example: https://sdhumane.org/how-you-can-help/donate/donate-wish-list-items/

[xPPx]

Read/understand terms before bidding. Problem solved...

[TECSHARE]

I know both of these users and I could see how this would happen. Yogg is a good person and will do what he agrees to, I just think he needs to read terms more carefully. I don't think there was ever any ill intent here. This all could have have been prevented/solved with better communication.

[Quickseller]

If yogg did not pay within the time alloted as per the terms of the auction, then he is in violation of his obligations.

When doing business with others, it is not uncommon to make accommodations for your trading partner for varioius reasons, although doing so should never be considered "mandatory". 

TBZ needs to decide if the ~18-42 hour delay in payment is worth the risk that yogg (or others that observe the situation) may bid a lower amount for his future auctions, or may decline to bid at all. TBZ should also consider the fact that yogg was the only bidder, so yogg failing to pay on time does not mean that someone else did not win the auction who would have paid on time.


yogg needs to be careful to confirm terms of auctions before placing bids, and to work out things with the seller about potential delays in payments before placing a bid so that the seller can agree to the delay or reject the bid. yogg delaying payment may result in TBZ (or others) refusing to accept his future bids as a result of this delay and/or similar future delays.

Considering how serious TBZ takes the terms of his own auctions, I am curious to know his opinion regarding minerjones backing out of 4 auctions in the span of roughly 5 weeks.

[TheButterZone]

Considering how serious TBZ takes the terms of his own auctions, I am curious to know his opinion regarding minerjones backing out of 4 auctions in the span of roughly 5 weeks.

If someone's acting as a third-party's auctioneer, they should say so, so everyone can see that & punch out. There are probably civil codes applicable to auctioneering, as well.

I'm not a fan of third-parties in trades, whether it's an auctioneer, escrow, self-escrow, loan shark, friend/"loans are gifts", guarantor... and apparently I have to hold my nose on shipping forwarding when no bitcoiner in the US wants a thing. There is some degree of insurance that can be added to domestic shipments, but once it gets to the buyer's choice of forwarder, I don't have meaningful control anymore.

[TECSHARE]

Considering how serious TBZ takes the terms of his own auctions, I am curious to know his opinion regarding minerjones backing out of 4 auctions in the span of roughly 5 weeks.

I wonder who is on your most recent shit slinging list... you never miss an opportunity to let loose a wet one, as usual.

[CasioK]

Funny enough but had Butterzone said when Yogg asked if he should take a loan in case TBZ needed it immediately that yeah no matter what I need it within 8 hrs. I don't know if a feedback was needed, but anyways you have to read terms more carefully yogg.

[TheButterZone]

Funny enough but had Butterzone said when Yogg asked if he should take a loan in case TBZ needed it immediately that yeah no matter what I need it within 8 hrs. I don't know if a feedback was needed, but anyways you have to read terms more carefully yogg.

The 8 hours is set so that I will wake up to at least 1 confirm on that TX on Tuesday morning, leaving the whole of Monday for last-day bidders to secure their bids' BTC on a banking/business day, and giving me Tuesday to prepare & tender the shipment to USPS before 5PM local, hopefully resulting in the mystery box being delivered on or before Saturday in the same week, or the following Monday at the latest.  

Irregardless, please CTRL/CMD-F the word "loan" & read all the times I used it.