World War III and BTC

[btc237ftw]

Finally, I hear my self thinking outside my body by reading someone else's reply!:)

It's funny that people are suggesting that the internet would be broken by a WWIII type event (assuming nuclear) - because the internet was created by DARPA precisely to be resistant to this exact threat Smiley

I was making the same point earlier - you are right.

As for what remains valuable in war, I remember reading a fascinating account of Hong Kong under Japanese occupation - a situation where preexisting currency was rendered useless. Gold and jewellery were used to store wealth. And Jews sewed gold into their clothes when escaping from the Nazis. Portable wealth is the key, and Bitcoin ticks that particular box quite nicely. You can keep it in your brain, let alone sewed into your clothes or dangling from your ears.

I too, think the value of BTC, during the war will become greater as more and more people would need to secure their money and make sure they can use it while on the move, or at least have the potnetial of being used while on the move.

[Skrapps]

Finally, I hear my self thinking outside my body by reading someone else's reply!:)

It's funny that people are suggesting that the internet would be broken by a WWIII type event (assuming nuclear) - because the internet was created by DARPA precisely to be resistant to this exact threat Smiley

I was making the same point earlier - you are right.

Think about it, how is the internet resistant to war, nuclear or otherwise? Let alone the technical side, who is going to operate and maintain the machines and infrastructure? Or do technicians get to first dibs in these bunkers? And if they were so important and vital to the nation's interest and survival to maintain any infrastructure (let alone a specific one like the internet), why do they need to worry about wealth, money and value? I think they will get as much as possible. (Only a few wackos are going to care about their future wealth and ability after such a war)
 
Also, here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARPANET#Misconceptions_of_design_goals

btc237ftw you are making 2 unrelated and totally wrong points.

1.  If a nuclear war takes place, using all the weapons that the superpowers have, hiding in basements isn't going to do much good as the environment will be poisoned.  Sooner or later you have to breathe and then you will take in poison and die.  As I said, I am no expert and I know the US and Russia are dismantling their arsenals.  But I hadn't known it reached the point that Mutually Assured Destruction no longer applied.  The danger of a nuclear war followed by a nuclear winter is that all life is wiped out.

2. An EMP takes out the electrical infrastructure, not the cables.  It doesn't matter if cables survive when the power stations are disabled and when the routers at the end of the cables are disabled.

If there were a nuclear war of the kind you are thinking, humanity would be reduced to extinction level and we might well be extinct.  There certainly wouldn't be the teams of engineers to run the Internet.  Bitcoin would be worthless.  So would the dollar.  Bullets and tinned tuna would be the new gold.

+1

[btc237ftw]

Think about it, how is the internet resistant to war, nuclear or otherwise? Let alone the technical side, who is going to operate and maintain the machines and infrastructure? Or do technicians get to first dibs in these bunkers? And if they were so important and vital to the nation's interest and survival to maintain any infrastructure (let alone a specific one like the internet), why do they need to worry about wealth, money and value? I think they will get as much as possible. (Only a few wackos are going to care about their future wealth and ability after such a war)

The answer is simple: an area gets hurt, the internet (DATA) is still stored elsewhere, and when the hurt area revives it regains access to the data and/or copies it. it's like a game of "wackamole".
Also, here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1e27wOIXqY

btc237ftw you are making 2 unrelated and totally wrong points.

1.  If a nuclear war takes place, using all the weapons that the superpowers have, hiding in basements isn't going to do much good as the environment will be poisoned.  Sooner or later you have to breathe and then you will take in poison and die.  As I said, I am no expert and I know the US and Russia are dismantling their arsenals.  But I hadn't known it reached the point that Mutually Assured Destruction no longer applied.  The danger of a nuclear war followed by a nuclear winter is that all life is wiped out.

2. An EMP takes out the electrical infrastructure, not the cables.  It doesn't matter if cables survive when the power stations are disabled and when the routers at the end of the cables are disabled.

If there were a nuclear war of the kind you are thinking, humanity would be reduced to extinction level and we might well be extinct.  There certainly wouldn't be the teams of engineers to run the Internet.  Bitcoin would be worthless.  So would the dollar.  Bullets and tinned tuna would be the new gold.

1. You are confusing Bio and Chemichal with Radio active. it isn't poison it's radioactivity, clearly you do not know what it is... Radioactivity disolves overtime, especially if it's on the air, so as long as you stay where radiation cannot enter, you can breath just fine.
2. An EMP will destroy cables as well... I was referring to underground and underwater cables connecting the world to the world wide web... Now, even though electricity will go on and off in some places... you can re-read it and see it will... "go on and off" meaning again, it's a wackamole game where whenever the power gets back on the data gets recopied and restored. At least the data that is needed for survival. That doesn't mean that all of the Websites will survive, as some websites are on simple host-machines and if those are destroyed, the website is gone... UNLESS, the owner has more copies of it, and simply recopies the website to functioning hosts whenever those become avaialbe.

The above link to a short (1:42 minutes long) video by Michio Kaku is good, you should see it... also, keep in mind it's just a very short explanation, there are many other - thorough ones out there.... research a little bit....

One more thing:

(Only a few wackos are going to care about their future wealth and ability after such a war)

Clearly your family did not come from Germany after WWII and/or you never checked what it means to SURVIVE the war.... In times of war, security is #1 prioirty as it brings food, water and refuge. All these "unnecessary" things are gained using this one "thing" that only "wackos" will care about during such times...

[Hawker]

btc237ftw - the half-life of the radioactive poisons in the 10s of 1000s of years.  Its all very well saying that if you stay in your basement you won't die but ffs 10s of 1000s of years is a long time to spend in a basement.

Do you seriously thing that if your umpteen-great-grandchildren emerge in the year 32013, the first thing they will ask is "What about the bitcoin that was bought in 2013?"

Seriously?

[btc237ftw]

btc237ftw - the half-life of the radioactive poisons in the 10s of 1000s of years.  Its all very well saying that if you stay in your basement you won't die but ffs 10s of 1000s of years is a long time to spend in a basement.

Do you seriously thing that if your umpteen-great-grandchildren emerge in the year 32013, the first thing they will ask is "What about the bitcoin that was bought in 2013?"

Seriously?

Clearly you are basing this on some science fiction film or story you saw or read...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fallout

The danger of radiation from fallout also decreases with time, as radioactivity decays exponentially with time, such that for each factor of seven increase in time, the radiation is reduced by a factor of ten. For example, after 7 hours, the average dose rate is reduced by a factor of ten; after 49 hours, it is reduced by a further factor of ten (to 1/100th); after two weeks the radiation from the fallout will have reduced by a factor of 1000 compared the initial level; and after 14 weeks the average dose rate will have reduced to 1/10,000th of the initial level.[16]

Fallout protection is almost exclusively concerned with protection from radiation. Radiation from fallout is encountered in the forms of alpha, beta, and gamma radiation, and as ordinary clothing affords protection from alpha and beta radiation,[13] most fallout protection measures deal with reducing exposure to gamma radiation.[14] For the purposes of radiation shielding, many materials have a characteristic halving thickness: the thickness of a layer of a material sufficient to reduce gamma radiation exposure by 50%. Halving thicknesses of common materials include: 1 cm (0.4 inch) of lead, 6 cm (2.4 inches) of concrete, 9 cm (3.6 inches) of packed earth or 150 m (500 ft) of air. When multiple thicknesses are built, the shielding multiplies. A practical fallout shield is ten halving-thicknesses of a given material, such as 90 cm (36 inches) of packed earth, which reduces gamma ray exposure by approximately 1024 times (210).[15][16] A shelter built with these materials for the purposes of fallout protection is known as a fallout shelter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Relativedoseratesnormalisedforday1.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Relativedoseratesnormalisedforday10000.png

[Hawker]

btc237ftw - I stand corrected.  It seems I spent my teens and 20s not only being subjected to awful fashion but also awful science.  We were assured that Mutually Assured Destruction meant that all of us would die.

To be honest, I find the bad science easier to forgive that the flared jeans and embroidered shirts. 

[QuestionAuthority]

If you want to have some fun with the concept of what will happen after a nuclear war watch "The Divide" and see how that makes you feel about the fate humanity after a war.

[Ekaros]

Bitcoin requires electricity and an Internet connection, and it's difficult to imagine they would remain constant and unaffected in case of a global conflict. Then, from what I've seen, even with my very limited experience of war, war is about survival, meaning that only physical goods remain valuable. When there's only one bread left in a shop, the shop owner will only sell it to the guy paying with hard currency.

It's funny that people are suggesting that the internet would be broken by a WWIII type event (assuming nuclear) - because the internet was created by DARPA precisely to be resistant to this exact threat

It would take a heck of a lot of physical destruction to bring down the internet entirely - by that time no humans would be left to use it anyway.

As for Bitcoin, only one copy of the blockchain needs to persist.

Question isn't so much about national military scale Internet, but the global one. Military networks are probably fine, but what about public networks run by multiple companies with contracts between these companies... Everything on Internet doesn't happen by magic...

[CasinoBit]

If you want to have some fun with the concept of what will happen after a nuclear war watch "The Divide" and see how that makes you feel about the fate humanity after a war.

Pointing out to a Hollywood film to show what will happen to the world after a nuclear war goes off just seems incredibly silly, every idea you introduce for a film is heavily Hollywoodized, people don't seem to realize that.

There will be women selling their bodies for food, rape, murders, mass slaughter for food/money/weapons, the currency of choice would probably be small (ideally .22) caliber bullets, store owners that have food will probably try to keep everything to themselves and/or trade it in exchange for weapons and other valuable goods, the ruthlessness of that world is unimaginable to anyone in this thread.

Bitcoin will certainly be long gone, I doubt you would even have mail to purchase goods with it.

[QuestionAuthority]

If you want to have some fun with the concept of what will happen after a nuclear war watch "The Divide" and see how that makes you feel about the fate humanity after a war.

Pointing out to a Hollywood film to show what will happen to the world after a nuclear war goes off just seems incredibly silly, every idea you introduce for a film is heavily Hollywoodized, people don't seem to realize that.

There will be women selling their bodies for food, rape, murders, mass slaughter for food/money/weapons, the currency of choice would probably be small (ideally .22) caliber bullets, store owners that have food will probably try to keep everything to themselves and/or trade it in exchange for weapons and other valuable goods, the ruthlessness of that world is unimaginable to anyone in this thread.

Bitcoin will certainly be long gone, I doubt you would even have mail to purchase goods with it.

Oh, then you haven't seen the movie. It's everything you just mentioned and more. You'll like it.

[CasinoBit]

Oh, then you haven't seen the movie. It's everything you just mentioned and more. You'll like it.

Already watching it.

Ask the average impressionable teenager about ancient Rome and the first thought they get is the romance, the beauty, the culture, without giving much thought to Romans cutting off the limbs off people and making them their pets, people smelling like shit or people shitting in the street, wiping with their hand etc.

I think some poor souls would even agree to time travel to ancient Rome given the opportunity.

Still got me curious..

[notme]

btc237ftw - the half-life of the radioactive poisons in the 10s of 1000s of years.  Its all very well saying that if you stay in your basement you won't die but ffs 10s of 1000s of years is a long time to spend in a basement.

Do you seriously thing that if your umpteen-great-grandchildren emerge in the year 32013, the first thing they will ask is "What about the bitcoin that was bought in 2013?"

Seriously?

Clearly you are basing this on some science fiction film or story you saw or read...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fallout

The danger of radiation from fallout also decreases with time, as radioactivity decays exponentially with time, such that for each factor of seven increase in time, the radiation is reduced by a factor of ten. For example, after 7 hours, the average dose rate is reduced by a factor of ten; after 49 hours, it is reduced by a further factor of ten (to 1/100th); after two weeks the radiation from the fallout will have reduced by a factor of 1000 compared the initial level; and after 14 weeks the average dose rate will have reduced to 1/10,000th of the initial level.[16]

Fallout protection is almost exclusively concerned with protection from radiation. Radiation from fallout is encountered in the forms of alpha, beta, and gamma radiation, and as ordinary clothing affords protection from alpha and beta radiation,[13] most fallout protection measures deal with reducing exposure to gamma radiation.[14] For the purposes of radiation shielding, many materials have a characteristic halving thickness: the thickness of a layer of a material sufficient to reduce gamma radiation exposure by 50%. Halving thicknesses of common materials include: 1 cm (0.4 inch) of lead, 6 cm (2.4 inches) of concrete, 9 cm (3.6 inches) of packed earth or 150 m (500 ft) of air. When multiple thicknesses are built, the shielding multiplies. A practical fallout shield is ten halving-thicknesses of a given material, such as 90 cm (36 inches) of packed earth, which reduces gamma ray exposure by approximately 1024 times (210).[15][16] A shelter built with these materials for the purposes of fallout protection is known as a fallout shelter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Relativedoseratesnormalisedforday1.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Relativedoseratesnormalisedforday10000.png

That is discussing half life in general.  The example given is for a half life of 7 hours, which is very short compared to what these weapons actually produce.   Different nuclear weapons will have different radioactive isotopes that are released, depending on the makeup of the fuel an other materials used.  Iodine-131, for example, is highly dangerous to human due to it being readily absorbed by thyroid.  It's half life is 8 days, so it would take you 7*8=56 days for your ten fold reduction.   Many others, such as radium-228 have a half life measured in years (5.75 years for radium-228).  So, in that case, you're looking at 40 years for your 10 fold reduction.  And radium is far from the longest lasting, although it is among the longest lasting that is produced by most nuclear weapons.  However, there is quite a variety of fuels and materials used to make various forms of these weapons.

So, you are right that 10s of 1000s of years is probably overkill, but we are not looking at insignificant time periods.

[btc237ftw]

That is discussing half life in general.  The example given is for a half life of 7 hours, which is very short compared to what these weapons actually produce.   Different nuclear weapons will have different radioactive isotopes that are released, depending on the makeup of the fuel an other materials used.  Iodine-131, for example, is highly dangerous to human due to it being readily absorbed by thyroid.  It's half life is 8 days, so it would take you 7*8=56 days for your ten fold reduction.   Many others, such as radium-228 have a half life measured in years (5.75 years for radium-228).  So, in that case, you're looking at 40 years for your 10 fold reduction.  And radium is far from the longest lasting, although it is among the longest lasting that is produced by most nuclear weapons.  However, there is quite a variety of fuels and materials used to make various forms of these weapons.

So, you are right that 10s of 1000s of years is probably overkill, but we are not looking at insignificant time periods.

Yea, it's true different type of bombs will have different effects and there are many other factors to consider such as weather, location it hits I.E mountain, water, buildings, a valley, wind etc... And yea, some places will be radioactive for longer periods of times than others, and when I say "radioactive" I mean dangerous to humans kind of radioactivity, however, protective suits can allow you to walk outside in most radiations (If you waited a few days to weeks since the blasts) and you will be fine, and in many cases waiting weeks to months will be enough.
You can also take Iodine pills that protect you from Iodine radioactivity by filling the body's supply of Iodine with good Iodine and not allowing the radioactive Iodine come, since there's already (Non radioactive) Iodine there.
In any case, recovery from such a war would take 40 years or so and lets not forget the amount of dead people that needs to be buried and the diseases it causes... So, I'm not saying it's a smooth ride or anything, not at all, I said that almost 60 and maybe even 70 % of human population can and should be killed during such a war and the majority of deaths will be within the first day of the bombing and about doubling that amount in the coming 12 months (from radiation, diseases, hunger etc) but I don't think we are talking about 99 or even 90 or 80 % of the world's population dying.

Just think what it means to have 4-5 billion people dying in such a short period of time, where the rest of the living have very frightening lives and poor living conditions.. it is not going to be easy!

Excellnt reply notme,

Thanks for it

[semaforo]

      My first thought when I heard about bitcoin is that the technology itself would elicit a global war as the current elite began to lose their grip on the world.

   I heard about BTC from RT, a Russian owned media outlet that broadcasts over satellite and tailors its shows towards certain demographics in the US. RT airs way more stories about bitcoin than US media outlets.

   That combined with China's airing of a special on bitcoin makes it seem like they are trying to use bitcoin to end the US dollars status as de facto world currency. Could be Russian and Chinese new rich are slowly and quietly selling all of their dollars for bitcoin to avoid driving the price too high before they can get in.

    Although the US corporate controlled propaganda machine convinces people that they should want to remain globally politically and economically dominant, more and more people are waking up all the time.

      Please people- REMEMBER THAT WE MAKE THIS! For example, fear of a shortage leads to people hording, which leads to a shortage, while there may be no actual reason for a shortage other than people's fear. Fear of war and poverty is the cause of war and poverty!


   So just keep calm and use bitcoin, no matter what you hear on the news. Apocalype means literally "revealing," and remember, "The apocalypse will not be televised!"