CoinGator

[Matthew N. Wright]

Fastcash4bitcoins offers this exact service (though they are usually out of money because they are so popular).  Yet I haven't ever seen this kind of vitriol leveled at them.  Calling a service like this a scam before it is even doing any business is out of line IMO.  I don't know if there are conflicts of interest involved on the part of the people making these comments, but these comments are premature at best.  This model can be successful, and at the present time these guys have given no indication that they won't be.

1) No one called them scammers. They are asking for trust in an environment that has never worked well (Paypal for bitcoin).

2) Maybe no one has ever heard of that other site and that's why they aren't receiving the same questioning. Could you link to their thread please? I'd love to see what they promise.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=90192.0 - as you can see in the 50+ page thread, no one has had problems and their customers give them rave reviews.

Welp, that's all the evidence I need! If another service has gotten away with breaking Paypal TOS for a year and been lucky, it must mean no one could possibly scam anyone with a similiar service or get their accouts frozen.  

[1714882925]

1714882925

[BitCoinUser123]

Exactly - I am definitely not calling Patrick and co at CoinGator scammers.  If anything, my issue lies with PayPal and with the fact that this business model does in fact violate their Terms of Service.  I think it's ridiculous that their ToS rules out the trading of currencies and such, but the fact is that it does.  Successful business models that fly in the face of this do not change that basic fact, and this is therefore a significant risk.

I think it's a great business model and I hope that it works out - it's exactly what PayPal could and theoretically *should* be used for, except for the fact that they prohibit it as part of their Terms of Service.  This is partially why a system like Bitcoin stands as a threat to PayPal.  It can serve as equal parts alternative payment system and currency.  It may be weaker as a payment system in some ways, but it has no terms of service or centralized overseer to potentially exercise unaccountable and arbitrary controls over it.

Barring a change in PayPal's Terms of Service, this business model is a risk on both sides irrespective of good intention.  No vitriol here, just a friendly warning.  I'd really like to see CoinGator and other similar services be successful, as it helps out with the 'last mile' problem currently facing Bitcoin.

As far as BitInstant, I haven't used them.  Until now I had no idea that they were even using PayPal.  Therefore I can't speak to that one.  If that's the case, then they face the exact same risks unless they have a special arrangement with PayPal in terms of service.

There is no conflict of interest on my part because I have next to no bitcoins,  I want to see this project succeed for the project and not the profit, and I don't have any involvement in any competing enterprises.  I've also had both good and bad experiences with PayPal, and I have been through their whole verification process as well.  I could easily see it going either way, because their processes are far from perfect or consistent, and would in fact border on arbitrary in my opinion.  My experience is that they will lock down your account at inconvenient times and may or may not unlock it after you comply with their verification demands.  Same thing can happen with banks or other financial services, which is why there's a huge appeal to directly holding your own money.

At any rate, I'd love to see this service work, and I really don't have any trust issue with CoinGator.  But I do have a confidence issue with the use of PayPal for these kinds of transactions  - partly because of my own personal experiences in other arenas and partly because of secondhand stories about the experiences of others with PayPal-Cryptocurrency transactions of any kind.

[str4wm4n]

Very fast service! Exactly what I needed thanks!

[SystemDisc]

I just tried the service. I didn't expect to get it right away because it's late and a weekend. It only took a few minutes after my BTC TX got confirmed to get the money in my PayPal account.

[johnniewalker]

I'm interested to see how you operate. I don't mean that I doubt you operate an honest business, I just mean that (from experience) there is absolutely NO way to safely exchange bitcoins for PayPal and vice-versa.

[BitCoinUser123]

The feedback seems entirely positive.  I want to echo johnniewalker - it wasn't my intent to criticize the CoinGator folks.  I wish you the very best, and I think it's fantastic that you're working to provide a much-needed service.  I truly hope that it works out well in the long term.

[naphto]

The feedback seems entirely positive.  I want to echo johnniewalker - it wasn't my intent to criticize the CoinGator folks.  I wish you the very best, and I think it's fantastic that you're working to provide a much-needed service.  I truly hope that it works out well in the long term.

We will see in 180 days. It seems fine now.

[Matthew N. Wright]

The feedback seems entirely positive.  I want to echo johnniewalker - it wasn't my intent to criticize the CoinGator folks.  I wish you the very best, and I think it's fantastic that you're working to provide a much-needed service.  I truly hope that it works out well in the long term.

We will see in 180 days. It seems fine now.

Let the record show.

Timer removed. End time: 2013-11-23+7:09:59

until any judgement can be made against CoinGator for their *first* of potentially many transactions.

Until then, any and all feedback are absolutely pointless, especially positive feedback.

[Matthew N. Wright]

We're making all payments using our account balances so I'm not sure that your timer is accurate.

If those balances are paypal balances, my timer is most accurate.

My only suggestions would be if you could make the timer a little bigger.  

It's the default size but I can resize it if you'd like. How's this?

[Matthew N. Wright]

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1f9ck4/paypal_shut_my_account_down_for_giving_away_free/
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/q39gf/i_have_become_a_victim_of_an_ebay_paypal_bitcoin/
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/oet8g/selling_bitcoins_for_paypal/

[crazylikeafox]

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1f9ck4/paypal_shut_my_account_down_for_giving_away_free/
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/q39gf/i_have_become_a_victim_of_an_ebay_paypal_bitcoin/
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/oet8g/selling_bitcoins_for_paypal/

Not a single one of those links points to a story where the end user's account is being shut down.  Looks like Paypal is shutting down a handful of business accounts that were engaged in the business of selling bitcoins due to the predictably high chargeback rate.  However, in this case chargebacks won't be an issue for the end users unless this business is dishonest, and there is no indication that they are at the present time.

[Matthew N. Wright]

I never said they did, I posted some links to warn newbies about trusting strangers with a sketchy reversible payment system. You have a problem with warning newbies about sketchy reversible payment systems? Why would anyone who isn't a sockpuppet shill of the OP have a problem with people practicing safer transactions on the internet with complete strangers when it's been proven that there are now the following days left before we could even *begin* to trust them?

[crazylikeafox]

I never said they did, I posted some links to warn newbies about trusting strangers with a sketchy reversible payment system. You have a problem with warning newbies about sketchy reversible payment systems? Why would anyone who isn't a sockpuppet shill of the OP have a problem with people practicing safer transactions on the internet with complete strangers when it's been proven that there are now the following days left before we could even *begin* to trust them?

I think the owners would probably verify that I have nothing to do with the site, and I don't know any of the people involved.  I only stumbled across this thread because someone suggested that they might bulk buy some coins from me and I was doing some research on them (they refused the bulk purchase btw - before I ever posted in this thread).  

I don't have a problem with people being cognizant of risks.  I do have a problem with people being unfairly and prematurely attacked - you are trying to smother them before they start.  I guess I just dislike bullies.

[Matthew N. Wright]

That lame excuse doesn't pass the smell test.

1) Difficulty of creating a bitcointalk.org forum account: Instant and easy
2) Difficulty in finding a photo online of some dude in college and saying you are him: Instant and easy.
3) Difficulty in creating an additional account and repeating #1 and #2 and calling said account a "partner": Instant and easy.
4) Difficulty in coming up with a name for a company that isn't registered anywhere in the world and only referenced in posts here: Instant and easy.
5) Difficulty of creating a Paypal account with fake but passable identification: Instant and easy
6) Difficulty in reversing transactions through Paypal: Instant and easy, with a small waiting time to have resolution department confirm violations in TOS for both parties

Benefit to scammer: 100%+ profit with a potential 6 months waiting period on account funds to be released to them
Benefit to consumer: up to -100%

"Smothering" them? Get a clue. They cannot be a legitimate or honest business until after this amount of days has passed:

Timer removed. End time: 2013-11-23+7:09:59


P.S. Please stop "smothering" Bitinstant. I just can't stand bullies. 

Federal law does NOT regulate the individual buying and selling of bitcoin.  It's clear that you don't know the law, I agree.

Look of the definition of Sole Proprietor in ANY state.

To your further snotty comment, perhaps you should actually read my posts.  I call out scammers regularly.  In this case I'm warning the world of the dangers of dealing with non-licensed money transmitters like yourself.  I stated publicly that ALL non-licensed entities like your will soon be shut down... seeking that post now...


In my search I came across this EXCITING NEWS:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=214056.0

Look, somebody who actually follows the law KUDO'S BITINSTANT!

Kudos to Bitinstant?  You must be joking.  You realize that they are effectively a ponzi scheme, correct?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=128314.1060 - Their 352 page "support" thread detailing massive delays that has only calmed down because they started telling people that they must deal with the company via email in order to receive any assistance at all

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=128314.msg2228559#msg2228559 - Something I found, they are actually purposely scrambling API client fields so that any user of the API would have every transaction infinitely delayed while they "hold" the money (pay this money out to other unfunded transactions, because they have a massive hole in their books).  I was told that this issue had been forwarded to Gareth.  No response, no fix after almost a week (because they are doing it on purpose).

So don't come in here and try to defame legitimate companies in favor of those giving Bitcoin a bad name with your jailhouse lawyer nonsense.  FC4BTC, like you, buys Bitcoins.  Unlike you, they have lawyers that have given them the green light.  You actually posted in here saying 'If I were a betting man I would bet that lawyers said "you had better register as a money transmitter" and D&T said "naw, I like the money I'm making and that would cost millions".'.  I'm sorry, but your guesses about the interactions between a lawyer and a private company that you have nothing to do with are not a basis for argument.

You are trying to steal business from a company that is undoubtedly infinitely more successful than you.  You want to make money in arbitrage, but there are much easier ways to do so than spamming people via PM asking if they want to sell you BTC.  If I were a betting man, I would bet that you have spammed via PM every single person that has posted in this thread saying that they have completed a transaction with FC4BTC, asking if they want to sell to you - based at least in part on your dubious legal theories.  Try to scare their customers, and get them to sell to you.  Nice strategy, but based on the level of desperation I see in your posts, I'm guessing that it isn't working especially well.

[crazylikeafox]

That lame excuse doesn't pass the smell test.

1) Difficulty of creating a bitcointalk.org forum account: Instant and easy
2) Difficulty in finding a photo online of some dude in college and saying you are him: Instant and easy.
3) Difficulty in creating an additional account and repeating #1 and #2 and calling said account a "partner": Instant and easy.
4) Difficulty in coming up with a name for a company that isn't registered anywhere in the world and only referenced in posts here: Instant and easy.
5) Difficulty of creating a Paypal account with fake but passable identification: Instant and easy
6) Difficulty in reversing transactions through Paypal: Instant and easy, with a small waiting time to have resolution department confirm violations in TOS for both parties

Benefit to scammer: 100%+ profit with a potential 6 months waiting period on account funds to be released to them
Benefit to consumer: up to -100%

"Smothering" them? Get a clue. They cannot be a legitimate or honest business until after this amount of days has passed:

Again, I guess I just don't like loud-mouthed bullies.  Now you're trying to bully me because I have simply stated that they shouldn't be attacked unless they give a reason to be attacked.  Once a bully, always a bully.

[crazylikeafox]

P.S. Please stop "smothering" Bitinstant. I just can't stand bullies.  

Oh, you're a Bitinstant shill.  Now I get it.  Bitinstant has given plenty of reason for people to attack them.  They deserve to be smothered, because they are a proven ponzi scheme.  They were given a chance, and they have shown themselves to be scammers.  Coingator, as of this moment, has not.

[Matthew N. Wright]

P.S. Please stop "smothering" Bitinstant. I just can't stand bullies.  

Oh, you're a Bitinstant shill.  Now I get it.  Bitinstant has given plenty of reason for people to attack them.  They deserve to be smothered, because they are a proven ponzi scheme.  They were given a chance, and they have shown themselves to be scammers.  Coingator, as of this moment, has not.

Since you don't understand sarcasm, how can I expect you to understand the concept of "anonymous = trustless"?

[Matthew N. Wright]

Randomly pulling "180 days" out of the PayPal terms of service as it applies to account closures and suggesting that somehow it applies to payment reversals seems to me misguided or maybe even a bit disingenuous.

If you're actually being serious with this statement, it proves you have no experience working with Paypal and people should not take your seriously.

The last guy I warned on the forums said "blah blah I know more than you matthew blah blah I am legit blah blah". His "business" went out of "business" 2 months later because Paypal closed their account for selling bitcoins. Get a fucking clue. If you're looking to be a reliable and invaluable service to the bitcoin community, stop using Paypal.

[crazylikeafox]

P.S. Please stop "smothering" Bitinstant. I just can't stand bullies.  

Oh, you're a Bitinstant shill.  Now I get it.  Bitinstant has given plenty of reason for people to attack them.  They deserve to be smothered, because they are a proven ponzi scheme.  They were given a chance, and they have shown themselves to be scammers.  Coingator, as of this moment, has not.

Since you don't understand sarcasm, how can I expect you to understand the concept of "anonymous = trustless"?

Anonymous cannot be trustless, or no one would ever transfer a single bitcoin to anyone else.  So, your argument is false on its face.  No one would ever exchange goods or services, or sell or buy Bitcoins, because either you have to send BTC first, or they have to give you the goods/services/money first.  Either way, there is trust involved. If you use an escrow service, there is trust involved there.  Economies, regardless of the means of exchange, do not exist without trust.  It's obvious that you have chosen not to trust Coingator.  That doesn't mean that you are correct, or that your opinion should be posted all over their thread in the absence of any kind of proof that they should not be trusted.  Again, this is nothing more than old-fashioned bullying.

[Matthew N. Wright]

I didn't mean trustless, I meant untrustable but at 6am my vocabulary is failing me. Anonymous is not trustless, just untrustable, and CoinGator is anonymous (forum avatar pictures and potentially made up business names do not equate to identity).

Time to call it a night before I end up posting the threads of actual businesses here who used Paypal and had to close their operations months later for having their accounts closed and owing people money.

CoinGator, do the right thing and drop Paypal immediately if you're actually legit. There is no shortage of failed businesses and horror stories from people just like you but smarter who tried to do exactly what you're doing. Please understand that your lack of knowledge and continued ignoring of warnings does not make you look better, just more determined to scam or run a business into the ground.

Cheers!


P.S. Here is a similar thread I "bullied" another "smothered" genius business man who thought he knew everything too. Notice the random sockpuppet whitenights for him and the "Matthew is wrong because of *how* he is talking so we can ignore the logic in what he's saying" posts. Spoiler alert: every single thing I said came true and he closed shop in shame and moved on to his next anonymous name. Please keep in mind this was in December 2011 so it's extra disappointing for me to see people still not able to learn these business mistakes after 2 years. In fact, it's so stupid that you kind of assume anyone offering Paypal these days is a scammer.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=52625.0