TradeFortress VERY untrustworthy, owes me 10.15 BTC, possibly others.

[ElectricMucus]

Whether TradeFortress is honest or not his shennanigans reveal Ripple is a tremendous security vulnerability for anyone who uses it, unless you use an utterly paranoid set of precautions that have yet to be worked out.

Bullshit, it's only when the participants do not understand the concept of trust. By that logic pirateat40 revealed a tremendous security vulnerability too.

Yes, but pirate didnt say, I am taking your money and not giving it back. 

Tradefortress said that here is an IOU I WILL NOT HONOR. 

In a sense IOU is a contract too.

Yes, it is.  And if someone handed you a contract that they said they were not going to honor, would you accept it then try to push to get it fulfilled? 

Yes. And I would sue them too.

[Littleshop]

Whether TradeFortress is honest or not his shennanigans reveal Ripple is a tremendous security vulnerability for anyone who uses it, unless you use an utterly paranoid set of precautions that have yet to be worked out.

Bullshit, it's only when the participants do not understand the concept of trust. By that logic pirateat40 revealed a tremendous security vulnerability too.

Yes, but pirate didnt say, I am taking your money and not giving it back. 

Tradefortress said that here is an IOU I WILL NOT HONOR. 

Where?? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=206948.0

He did not say that he would not honor it.

Maybe you are right but he did say:
"To expose and bring awareness to the flaws in the Ripple payment system, I am giving away at least 1 BTC per address on Ripple."

While I agree anyone following what trade fortress was doing over the past few weeks would have got that they are not going to get any coin outside of a ripple IOU, I do see that someone jumping in the middle might have been misled. 

[bitaccumulation]

Yes, but pirate didnt say, I am taking your money and not giving it back.  

Tradefortress said that here is an IOU I WILL NOT HONOR.  

Maybe you should read TradeFortress' posts on his OP on the Newbie forum.   He did not say "here is an IOU I WILL NOT HONOR."  He said

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=206948

I am giving away at least 1 BTC per address on Ripple.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=206948.msg2166536#msg2166536

B) I won't defraud/scam you out of any money. Yes, you can convert the BTC I send you to real BTCs. For continued discussion, send me a PM, responses will be deleted from this point.

I PM'd him to ask him how he would deal with redeeming IOUs so that anyone could convert his IOUs into BTC.  He wrote...




So in summary he misled people, while counting on their ignorance of how Ripple works, into letting him put them in harm's way so he and his confederates could steal their legitimate IOU's from reputable gateways.

[webr3]

Whether TradeFortress is honest or not his shennanigans reveal Ripple is a tremendous security vulnerability for anyone who uses it, unless you use an utterly paranoid set of precautions that have yet to be worked out.

Bullshit, it's only when the participants do not understand the concept of trust. By that logic pirateat40 revealed a tremendous security vulnerability too.

Yes, but pirate didnt say, I am taking your money and not giving it back.  

Tradefortress said that here is an IOU I WILL NOT HONOR.  

In a sense IOU is a contract too.

Yes, it is.  And if someone handed you a contract that they said they were not going to honor, would you accept it then try to push to get it fulfilled? 

You keep saying this. Where?? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=206948.0

He did not say that he would not honor it. He took direct steps to ensure they were honoured.

He took out an overdraft with me, and gave 10.15 btc away to other users, 9.15 to a single user, after he new it was an IOU which was automatically honourable.

[ElectricMucus]

It doesn't matter what Tradefortress said or how he formulated it.

Rule of Acquisition #17 states that "A contract is a contract is a contract,"
The irony is real governments around the world see that exactly the same way.

Tradefortress you dun goofed.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

It doesn't matter what Tradefortress said or how he formulated it.

Rule of Acquisition #17 states that "A contract is a contract is a contract,"
The irony is real governments around the world see that exactly the same way.

Tradefortress you dun goofed.

Right, but I have not signed a contract. A Ripple IOU is not a contract (we went through this already), and theymos has the same position.

[ElectricMucus]

It doesn't matter what Tradefortress said or how he formulated it.

Rule of Acquisition #17 states that "A contract is a contract is a contract,"
The irony is real governments around the world see that exactly the same way.

Tradefortress you dun goofed.

Right, but I have not signed a contract. A Ripple IOU is not a contract (we went through this already), and theymos has the same position.

That doesn't matter if even one of those deceived has the balls to sue you. And the greatest irony is if you loose the case you would have given ripple the biggest stamp of legitimacy currently thinkable.

[webr3]

You took 10.15 btc from me, and gave it away. You owe me it, pay your debt.

[dscotese]

There's something here I don't understand...

Didn't you tell Ripple that you trust TradeFortress to pay you back up to 100 BTC?  Have you now decided to reverse that claim that you trust him?  I don't think Ripple supports that, and it should (which would make it useless, I think).  Since it doesn't, you're stuck trusting TF to pay you back... some day.  Did you happen to tell Ripple how long your trust that he'd pay you back would last?  I guess that's another feature Ripple doesn't have.

I don't think there's any difference between telling Ripple that you trust person X (TF or whoever) to pay you back up to 100 BTC, and actually giving that person 100 BTC.  I think what TF is doing is great.  He could make a lot of enemies (which a very large number of people do, inadvertently, as they bumble through life depending on taxation for various things - see - fiat currency is the ultimate scam - check out Larken Rose's "How to Be a Crook"), or a lot of friends, depending on who's smart enough to see that he's proving that... there's no "difference between telling Ripple that you trust person X (TF or whoever) to pay you back up to 100 BTC, and actually giving that person 100 BTC."

Well done, TF.  I hope the few people who think the lesson is worth less than they lost won't hurt you too much for allowing them to foolishly tell Ripple that they trusted you.

As usual, my understanding of things is always suspect, so if anyone would like to point out any boneheaded things I've said in expressing my understanding of this situation, please go ahead.

[ElectricMucus]

As usual, my understanding of things is always suspect, so if anyone would like to point out any boneheaded things I've said in expressing my understanding of this situation, please go ahead.

So you are basically cheering for separating suckers from their money. I have done that as well some times, but never serious.

[dscotese]

As usual, my understanding of things is always suspect, so if anyone would like to point out any boneheaded things I've said in expressing my understanding of this situation, please go ahead.

So you are basically cheering for separating suckers from their money. I have done that as well some times, but never serious.

My cheer-leading in that area has only grown more serious over the years.  The problem it solves is that if people I respect don't end up with a fool's money, then worse people will end up with it.  Look at all the people paying taxes to the US government.  That is the worst way to lose your money (and check out losthorizons.com if it's happening to you because chances are it doesn't need to).  The fastest way to turn a sucker from a sucker into someone respectable, trustworthy, smart, and a positive influence in society is to let them get suckered enough for them to realize what's happening.  I raised three kids, and I watched them all learn to walk.  When you stop them from falling down, it only slows down their progress.  Did I ever trip them on purpose?  No, but I didn't move things out of their way either.  Self-reliance is an important tool, and only growing more important as the tyrants most people call "authorities" continue making people into sheeple-slaves.

You Trust, You learn.  It goes both ways.  The trick is to trust others with as much as you're willing to pay to learn that they aren't trustworthy.  When you get that right, you always win when dealing with others, whether they're trustworthy or not.

[webr3]

You Trust, You learn.  It goes both ways.  The trick is to trust others with as much as you're willing to pay to learn that they aren't trustworthy.  When you get that right, you always win when dealing with others, whether they're trustworthy or not.

Exactly, I trusted TradeFortress, he proved himself very untrustworthy. He owes me 10.15 BTC.

That is the title of this thread, and the point here.

[Jaseph]

You Trust, You learn.  It goes both ways.  The trick is to trust others with as much as you're willing to pay to learn that they aren't trustworthy.  When you get that right, you always win when dealing with others, whether they're trustworthy or not.

Exactly, I trusted TradeFortress, he proved himself very untrustworthy. He owes me 10.15 BTC.

That is the title of this thread, and the point here.

I am really sorry you lost your money. But didn't TF offer to send you the money to a btc address? And did he not warn you that if he just sent the btc stamps back, someone else might use his IOUs to trade them for your stamps?  I dont mean to be harsh or cold. I'm very sad it happened, but TF showed you how it could happen but you refused the btc deposit to a secure wallet. Instead you wanted your stamps on ripple with all the risk that entailed.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

You Trust, You learn.  It goes both ways.  The trick is to trust others with as much as you're willing to pay to learn that they aren't trustworthy.  When you get that right, you always win when dealing with others, whether they're trustworthy or not.

Exactly, I trusted TradeFortress, he proved himself very untrustworthy. He owes me 10.15 BTC.

That is the title of this thread, and the point here.

I am really sorry you lost your money. But didn't TF offer to send you the money to a btc address? And did he not warn you that if he just sent the btc stamps back, someone else might use his IOUs to trade them for your stamps?  I dont mean to be harsh or cold. I'm very sad it happened, but TF showed you how it could happen but you refused the btc deposit to a secure wallet. Instead you wanted your stamps on ripple with all the risk that entailed.

I *exactly* said this and he wants me to send the BTCs back:

My point is that if someone else had done this, you would be at a loss of 10.15 BTC, and I have no obligation to redeem my 10.15 BTC because I had no intention of honoring it in the first place, and there are no terms for redemption.

Hey, look, what happened? 

[ironcross360]

I was going to write a response to this, but my time is better spent on other things, unlike you which seems to be concerned with losing money to people I gave IOUs to because you want me to honor IOUs on Ripple which I have not said I will honor.

He honored what he said he would do. Send ripple IOU's. And it turns out ripple is the scam. because if ripple allows it why use them?

[DiamondCardz]

He's not going to fulfill anything in ripple, and there is no contract. You aren't getting 10.15 BTC, he didn't even withdraw that BTC personally.

Ripple is a scam, and this is just an example of the massive vulnerability.

[Maged]

Why would someone purposefully spend over $1k to defame TradeFortress? This is absolutely stupid, and webr3 should be ashamed.

Ripple should maybe make it more clear that trust means that you are basically giving someone that much money, though.

[mmeijeri]

You Trust, You learn.  It goes both ways.  The trick is to trust others with as much as you're willing to pay to learn that they aren't trustworthy.  When you get that right, you always win when dealing with others, whether they're trustworthy or not.

That is true, and it's one reason Ripple is a good system. But it doesn't get TF off the hook. He still needs to pay up.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

You Trust, You learn.  It goes both ways.  The trick is to trust others with as much as you're willing to pay to learn that they aren't trustworthy.  When you get that right, you always win when dealing with others, whether they're trustworthy or not.

That is true, and it's one reason Ripple is a good system. But it doesn't get TF off the hook. He still needs to pay up.

Not only is that just your opinion, but also I have "paid up" by sending 10.15 BTC back to webr3 the first time. You know what happened next, he tried it again despite me saying I won't honor it and someone random user he accuses of being me redeemed it.

[b!z]

I believe the fault here lies not with TradeFortress or with Ripple; but with the OP for accepting the IOUs over BTC while completely aware that he may lose them.

He was suggested by TF to close the trustlines to avoid losing the BTC IOUs, but he refused to. It is evident that OP's ignorance resulted in this loss.