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Author Topic: MTGOX SO SICK OF THEIR BULLSHiT Should start a class action suite  (Read 5215 times)
imperi
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June 24, 2011, 04:59:39 AM
 #21

Very amusing to see people all excited about a virtual currency independent of government, then want to use the legal system to recover their losses when things go wrong.

Lets just review some basic facts.
The very existence of present national governments depends on their ability (in cahoots with the banks) to create and control the (fiat) currency universally used for commerce. Undermine that fiat, fractional reserve money machine, and all current governments would rapidly go pooof and vanish in a cloud of spitting, self-devouring chaos.

And this is _why_ we all like the fundamental concept of Bitcoin, because we hate the government and everything it stands for, right?

Except... the legal system is created, maintained and enforced by government. It is _part_ of the government.

It's true there's a long, long way to go before Bitcoin or anything like it makes an actual dent in government power. But the principle and intent are there. So going crying to the lawyers about your Bitcoin losses has a pretty strong small of hypocrisy.

On the other hand, starting a class action suit might be a good way to find out what the establishment wants with regard to Bitcoin. See how much official cooperation or obstruction you get.


I don't think most people here are anarchists.
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Horkabork
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June 24, 2011, 05:01:19 AM
 #22

I can respect that you, me, and a lot of people feel wronged. However, I don't think anyone here is equipped to give you the most important answers:

1) Could you get more money collected from a lawsuit than the time and cost of the lawsuit?
2) What are the odds that, if you proceed, you will win?
3) How much would the lawsuit cost, out of pocket?
4) How long would it take from writing a check to receiving one? (I.E., how long until your out-of-pocket expenses are recovered).

Ignoring ethical, moral, and other issues and just boiling this down to pure personal economics, those are the questions you need to bring to a lawyer. They are the only considerations that really matter in greedy American "I want an excess of the money that I actually lost" litigiomania. Well, that and you'd need to consider actually obtaining a lawyer willing to do the work and consider getting enough people to join the suit to divide the expenses and strengthen the case. However, with too many people such as in a class action involving the entire user base, you risk a noncollectable judgement and would only be spending a lot of money to bankrupt Mt. Gox, which could quite easily just fold and reform.

Well, unless you really were talking about some sort of "law suite." I'm picturing that this would be us banding together and playing a fun set of loosely-connected instrumental music compositions about laws or perhaps building an apartment with many connected rooms that somehow involve lawyers. Huh

Edit: I want to point out that I'm not at all ridiculing your anger, which you have a right to have, but I'm ridiculing the idea of a lawsuit that is specifically class-action.

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TerraHertz
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June 24, 2011, 05:13:19 AM
 #23

I don't think most people here are anarchists.

Really? By what definition of 'anarchist'?
Excluding the anti-bitcoin trolls here, I'd say most of the the rest would be supportive of the intrinsic aims of the bitcoin system. Which are to provide a means of freely trading independent of governmental inspection and control.

Are you going to claim that is _not_ a fundamentally anarchistic objective?

Remember, 'anarchism' does not imply public disorder. It implies absence of a centralized means of _enforcing_ (someone's idea of) order.

A society can be both 'anarchistic' and ordered, peaceful, prosperous and stable. It all depends on the people involved, and their ideals.

"The price good people pay for their indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." -- Plato
imperi
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June 24, 2011, 05:16:14 AM
 #24

I don't think most people here are anarchists.

Really? By what definition of 'anarchist'?
Excluding the anti-bitcoin trolls here, I'd say most of the the rest would be supportive of the intrinsic aims of the bitcoin system. Which are to provide a means of freely trading independent of governmental inspection and control.

Are you going to claim that is _not_ a fundamentally anarchistic objective?

Remember, 'anarchism' does not imply public disorder. It implies absence of a centralized means of _enforcing_ (someone's idea of) order.

A society can be both 'anarchistic' and ordered, peaceful, prosperous and stable. It all depends on the people involved, and their ideals.

I don't really feel like to debating this, philoso-babble is for the trolls... I'm sure someone else can answer your questions.
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June 24, 2011, 05:27:24 AM
 #25

well for the one who posted this if not legal action to get what you own back then only leave physical threats and meance left to use which for a few grand fly there and then what put foot to ass maybe put a gun to their head get coins transfered so come on use your head if this was black market thing i could see cutting your losses but this was earned and paid for currency so it hold sweat equity power /internet and knowledge of setup and maintaining. theft of services as well.

I try to think this as business transaction not a DUKE NUKEM moment.
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June 24, 2011, 05:28:15 AM
 #26

I don't really feel like to debating this, philoso-babble is for the trolls... I'm sure someone else can answer your questions.

Oops. I forgot the group who are Bitcoin enthusiasts solely for the profit, with no thought of the philosophy involved. Silly me, of course there will be quite a few of them.

But never mind. Principles are not important, right? Better not confuse yourself with all that 'philoso-babble', that's about stupid stuff like _why_ we do the things we do.

"The price good people pay for their indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." -- Plato
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June 24, 2011, 05:30:16 AM
 #27

I will likely go there too (or perhaps a third option), but in the mean time, I would like to think Mt. Gox is taking the proper time to take the claims process seriously, and somebody else isn't engineering their way into my account.  You can't simultaneously criticize Mt. Gox for not taking enough time to secure their shit, and demand they hurry up, throwing security to the wind in favor of convenience.

+1 Exactly !!

I think the people who crying so loud is the people with 0 USD / 0 BTC Balance.

With the people like me with no zero balance its more important that WE can get in OUR account and no kid with the user-excel sheet in the hand is claiming our account.

THAT is my 1st priority. If it takes 2 Weeks im fine with it. If it takes 4 weeks im fine with it.

If it takes 1 day, and someone other can claim my account - that would be a Problem.

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dayfall
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June 24, 2011, 05:56:33 AM
 #28

Would you rather they rush and be negligent?  You can have:

1. Security
2. Speed

Pick one.

3. My money
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June 24, 2011, 06:30:41 AM
 #29

I think the only reason they started taking action is,because the effect of the last hack had a huge effect on the market, if it were just another 20 accounts with a few hundred or thousand bucks that got hacked he wouldnt have done this. He would have ignored you initially, then tell you too bad it's your own fault, our site is secure.

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goodlord666
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June 24, 2011, 12:06:47 PM
 #30

MtGox are handling this nicely so far...

Thumbs up!

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June 24, 2011, 06:46:29 PM
 #31

I think the people who crying so loud is the people with 0 USD / 0 BTC Balance.

With the people like me with no zero balance its more important that WE can get in OUR account and no kid with the user-excel sheet in the hand is claiming our account.

THAT is my 1st priority. If it takes 2 Weeks im fine with it. If it takes 4 weeks im fine with it.

If it takes 1 day, and someone other can claim my account - that would be a Problem.

I agree, have had very few people with atleast >10BTC or >$100 complain about the process being extended longer. Seems its a bunch battle hungry law seeking beginners who are claiming the end of the world.

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June 24, 2011, 07:14:13 PM
 #32

Well mtgox could certainly have handled things a bit better but once it's all said and done, (and it will be) who cares. Either take your money and run somewhere else or don't.
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June 24, 2011, 08:10:20 PM
 #33

[Update June 24 - 02:39 GMT]

I think we should ban together to hit mt gox with a class action law suite  any thoughts
on anyone lost over $500 can claiim against them and they are bound by some usa laws as well as HK laws so they can be sued and for loss and profits and keeping us from our revenues,

Yeah please do go and find an attorney to start a class action against a foreign business for losses you may or may not have based on an entirely illegal action on your part (US). The laws surrounding Bitcoin mining and trading in the US have yet to be applied to users, pools and trading sites but if the Feds start seeing hundreds of thousands of dollars being generated in profits you can be sure they will turn their attention here sooner or later. As it is some idiot politicians have tried to tie Bitcoins with money laundering.

Laws that are likely being violated:

1. IRS tax reporting on profits and income.
2. US Code Title 18, § 1960. Prohibition of unlicensed money transmitting businesses
3. US Code Title 31, Subtitle IV, Chapter 53, RECORDS AND REPORTS ON MONETARY INSTRUMENTS TRANSACTIONS
4. US Code TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 25 > § 514 Fictitious obligations
5. TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 25 > § 486 Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal (a reach maybe but Feds are known to reach)
6. TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 19 > § 371 Conspiracy to commit offense or to defraud United States
7. TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 95 > § 1956 Laundering of monetary instruments

The list goes on and on not to mention State charges for failing to file proper tax returns, sales tax, etc, etc. Don't forget Bernard von NotHaus. Mining is one thing but as soon as that digital coin is exchange for something of value including services it's another ball game. Your "Class action" by default would be admitting that Bitcoins have value and are currency thus the laws cited above as well as dozens more would then apply if your action was found to have merit.

Anduril
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June 24, 2011, 08:19:44 PM
 #34

I think we should ban together to hit mt gox with a class action law suite  any thoughts
on anyone lost over $500 can claiim against them and they are bound by some usa laws as well as HK laws so they can be sued and for loss and profits and keeping us from our revenues,

Where are you going to sue exactly?
BCwinning
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June 24, 2011, 08:20:31 PM
 #35

[Update June 24 - 02:39 GMT]

I think we should ban together to hit mt gox with a class action law suite  any thoughts
on anyone lost over $500 can claiim against them and they are bound by some usa laws as well as HK laws so they can be sued and for loss and profits and keeping us from our revenues,

Yeah please do go and find an attorney to start a class action against a foreign business for losses you may or may not have based on an entirely illegal action on your part (US). The laws surrounding Bitcoin mining and trading in the US have yet to be applied to users, pools and trading sites but if the Feds start seeing hundreds of thousands of dollars being generated in profits you can be sure they will turn their attention here sooner or later. As it is some idiot politicians have tried to tie Bitcoins with money laundering.

Laws that are likely being violated:

1. IRS tax reporting on profits and income.
2. US Code Title 18, § 1960. Prohibition of unlicensed money transmitting businesses
3. US Code Title 31, Subtitle IV, Chapter 53, RECORDS AND REPORTS ON MONETARY INSTRUMENTS TRANSACTIONS
4. US Code TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 25 > § 514 Fictitious obligations
5. TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 25 > § 486 Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal (a reach maybe but Feds are known to reach)
6. TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 19 > § 371 Conspiracy to commit offense or to defraud United States
7. TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 95 > § 1956 Laundering of monetary instruments

The list goes on and on not to mention State charges for failing to file proper tax returns, sales tax, etc, etc. Don't forget Bernard von NotHaus. Mining is one thing but as soon as that digital coin is exchange for something of value including services it's another ball game. Your "Class action" by default would be admitting that Bitcoins have value and are currency thus the laws cited above as well as dozens more would then apply if your action was found to have merit.


I believe it can be seen as a commodity and not a currency (Which govt even acknowledges it's a currency?) and as such qualifies as goods and services tendered. AFAIK there is nothing illegal about bitcoins in the US code. It's a grey area but I am sure someone could win a case through small claims court in texas. Tongue (jab at patent trolls)

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June 24, 2011, 08:35:14 PM
 #36

Personally, I can't wait till MtGox comes back online.

I plan on moving it all over to an alternative currency exchange.
bitcoinminer
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June 25, 2011, 02:32:21 PM
 #37

Is my suite ready yet?

Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful.

-Warren Buffett
nathanrees19
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June 25, 2011, 02:50:23 PM
 #38

1. Security

That ship sailed long ago.
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June 25, 2011, 06:48:32 PM
 #39

Site is up and logins working, no trades till the 26th at the current price set of $17 which won't stick but a few seconds once trading opens.
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June 25, 2011, 10:49:38 PM
 #40

I have way more than $500 stuck at MtGox for days, usually I'd go ape if anyone did that to me, but I believed in MtGox and I didn't think they had any bad intentions to begin with, so I waited quietly and patiently the past few days for them to fix this issue.

But they've now declined my reclaim request 6 or 7 times already, I'm very disappointed and slowly losing my faith in them Undecided
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