[BitFunder] Graet.Loan - Paying 0.05% interest daily

[ru0chen]

I world continue hold the bonds when you make a  good treatment of graet.loan : Continue daily dividend, can be redeemed at the right time

[1715433812]

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[ohyeahok]

i have 1099..
if bitfunder close.
how can we receive the interest.
thanks.

[digit]

What will happen with GPT.YABMC & GPT.ESecBTC?

[Bananery]

I have bought back graet.loan on the market, not all 200,000 issued are still in circulation.

How much is still in circulation?

I still consider graet.loan to be a loan and intend to continue to pay interest and to buy back as I am able.

Whatever, doesn't mean shit what you consider. Give us the numbers, how much is there to redeem and how much assests you have that you can liquidate. What are your income streams? What is the risk of default in case bitcoin raises to 1k USD, 5k, 10k?

While you were busy on your vacation you lost 60% of portfolio? That is very irresponsible considering how much liabilities you have.

Give us numbers, because your considerations are just empty words. And if there is a risk of default in case of increasing bitcoin exchange rates, which is happening as we speak, then just tell it. We don't want to be in dark. If you don't give us numbers, I will start considering sponsoring someone to pay you a visit and get the numbers and real situation.

[wolfbiter]

I still consider graet.loan to be a loan and intend to continue to pay interest and to buy back as I am able.

First, thanks for the update! Sorry you're getting so much flame.
Second, are you going to convert graet.loan shares into direct shares when Bitfunder closes on December 1st? Or do you have another plan?

Thanks!

[crumbs]

Can someone explain the reasoning behind investing in "shares" (traded as stocks?) of  a "personal loan" (bonds?), with redemption terms defined as

"You can request refund of the loan at face value anytime.
Redeeming bonds may take some time to liquidate positions or procure more BTC if no liquid BTC is available."?  

What recourse is there when the issuer finds himself short of "liquid BTC," thus making the time frame "some time"?
Can the terms of the OP be reduced to "Lend me money & i'll pay you back when it's convenient for me"?
Thanks.

[Bananery]

Can the terms of the OP be reduced to "Lend me money & i'll pay you back when it's convenient for me"?
Thanks.

I think it's pointless, because by now everyone realizes that Graem lied about several points in his terms, including the one you mention.

[julz]

Can someone explain the reasoning behind investing in "shares" (traded as stocks?) of  a "personal loan" (bonds?), with redemption terms defined as

"You can request refund of the loan at face value anytime.
Redeeming bonds may take some time to liquidate positions or procure more BTC if no liquid BTC is available."?  

What recourse is there when the issuer finds himself short of "liquid BTC," thus making the time frame "some time"?
Can the terms of the OP be reduced to "Lend me money & i'll pay you back when it's convenient for me"?
Thanks.

The reasoning would presumably be that by having them 'tradable as stocks' - holders can exit their position (at what under normal conditions would be close to face value) even if the rate of people wishing to exit is slightly higher than available from the borrower.
It wouldn't make sense to take out a loan if at any time the borrower was able to refund the face value of the entire amount... so it should have been obvious to all that at certain lender demand levels it would be unfeasable to pay out immediately.

As it happens of course - the combination of bitfunder closure and people just wishing to redeem due to the rise in BTC value has clearly passed that limit.
This in itself shouldn't be a worry (aside from the now significant haircuts taken by those needing to exit).. but combined with the lack of transparency regarding the borrower's financials, and the fact we don't know to what extent a BTC price-rise puts the borrower at risk of default, it's surely now a worry - providing yet more redemption pressure.

Say what you want about the risk/foolishness of lending money under conditions of such low transparency of the underlying businesses... but the mechanism of lending as a 'share-like' asset seems a reasonable model otherwise. (with of course the usual caveats about legality and recourse when taking a risk on any assets on these unregulated 'exchanges')

[crumbs]

Can someone explain the reasoning behind investing in "shares" (traded as stocks?) of  a "personal loan" (bonds?), with redemption terms defined as

"You can request refund of the loan at face value anytime.
Redeeming bonds may take some time to liquidate positions or procure more BTC if no liquid BTC is available."?  

What recourse is there when the issuer finds himself short of "liquid BTC," thus making the time frame "some time"?
Can the terms of the OP be reduced to "Lend me money & i'll pay you back when it's convenient for me"?
Thanks.

The reasoning would presumably be that by having them 'tradable as stocks' - holders can exit their position (at what under normal conditions would be close to face value) even if the rate of people wishing to exit is slightly higher than available from the borrower.
It wouldn't make sense to take out a loan if at any time the borrower was able to refund the face value of the entire amount... so it should have been obvious to all that at certain lender demand levels it would be unfeasable to pay out immediately.

As it happens of course - the combination of bitfunder closure and people just wishing to redeem due to the rise in BTC value has clearly passed that limit.
This in itself shouldn't be a worry (aside from the now significant haircuts taken by those needing to exit).. but combined with the lack of transparency regarding the borrower's financials, and the fact we don't know to what extent a BTC price-rise puts the borrower at risk of default, it's surely now a worry - providing yet more redemption pressure.

Say what you want about the risk/foolishness of lending money under conditions of such low transparency of the underlying businesses... but the mechanism of lending as a 'share-like' asset seems a reasonable model otherwise. (with of course the usual caveats about legality and recourse when taking a risk on any assets on these unregulated 'exchanges')

Of course it should have been obvious that the borrower would not have the liquidity to pay back the loan at any point in time at face value.  The rub is absolutely nothing in the terms *motivates* the borrower to gain such liquidity.

To be in keeping with the terms, the debt issuer simply invests the borrowed funds in a bet on JustDice.  If he wins, he pocket the profits & bets the original amount again, until he finally loses.  He may also convert all the BTC into USD, and short BTC while staying illiquid.
All the risks are *explicitly* with the lender.

Regarding "lack of transparency" -- that's what defines a "personal loan."  No transparency is offered or should be expected.

You also point out that unforeseen circumstances are responsible for the failure here, but you overlook the fact that, according to OP's terms, *failure is undefined*.  In case i'm not making myself clear, OP has not defaulted on his loan, nor is defaulting possible according to OP's terms.

Every possible venture will succeed under ideal circumstances.  A contract should exhaustively define how each party must act under all possible circumstances, including unfavorable scenarios.  OP explores exotic possibilities (1BTC=1$), but neglects to delineate the essentials.  That's the difference between useful business instruments and random assemblages of words.

[ohyeahok]

please graet.
stop sent interest over bitfunder. it`s can`t withdrawal .
can you pay the interest direct to our Address?

[lunarboy]

please graet.
stop sent interest over bitfunder. it`s can`t withdrawal .
can you pay the interest direct to our Address?

+ 1

would be great to see interest coming directly into our bitfunder public address until the loan is formally moved to a new exchange site. Havelock seems by far the most competent these days.

[Bananery]

please graet.
stop sent interest over bitfunder. it`s can`t withdrawal .
can you pay the interest direct to our Address?

+ 1

would be great to see interest coming directly into our bitfunder public address until the loan is formally moved to a new exchange site. Havelock seems by far the most competent these days.

If Graeme continues to play dividends, then it would probably be best not to send them every day due to transaction fees. All BitFunder bitcoins will be moved to WeExchange, so Graeme, tell us what you're going to do before that. Tell us also if the bonds will be transferable. I hope they will be transferable, because some people might want to sell or buy them.

[julz]

Why were there 3 dividend payments for 2013-11-16 and 2 for 2013-11-17?
It looks like we now have 3 dividends paid in advance.  Anyone know why?

[Bananery]

Why were there 3 dividend payments for 2013-11-16 and 2 for 2013-11-17?
It looks like we now have 3 dividends paid in advance.  Anyone know why?

Edit:
Not sure why.

[bittymitty]

As we are unable to easily withdraw from Weexchange can the dividend be paid directly to the BTC wallet address?

[Progressive]

It would be great if Graet transfered the bonds to the new legal CipherTrade exchange (runned by woodrake, Deprived and others) it could also handle dividends payments nicely.

More about the exchange: https://forum.litecoin.net/index.php/topic,7176.0.html

[lunarboy]

It would be great if Graet transfered the bonds to the new legal CipherTrade exchange (runned by woodrake, Deprived and others) it could also handle dividends payments nicely.

More about the exchange: https://forum.litecoin.net/index.php/topic,7176.0.html

It would be great if it were transferred anywhere instead of the black hole that is bitfunder weexchange.

[Graet]

Why were there 3 dividend payments for 2013-11-16 and 2 for 2013-11-17?
It looks like we now have 3 dividends paid in advance.  Anyone know why?

There was a glitch on the site - didnt reload properly and when I came back to it I clicked the "pay" button again.




Until bitfunder closes and I get all of the information I cannot pay direct to peoples private addresses.

Looking at options to manage graet.loan after bitfunder closes

I have stated earlier in this thread that the goal was to have most of graet.loan repaid by mid 2014 this is still my goal - the changes at bitfunder hurt me too and i'm waiting to be repaid btc from several sources too - not a nice time.

I plan to stick around and honor my commitments
thanks for patience and understanding in these trying times
Graet

[thecoinjournal]

Why were there 3 dividend payments for 2013-11-16 and 2 for 2013-11-17?
It looks like we now have 3 dividends paid in advance.  Anyone know why?

There was a glitch on the site - didnt reload properly and when I came back to it I clicked the "pay" button again.




Until bitfunder closes and I get all of the information I cannot pay direct to peoples private addresses.

Looking at options to manage graet.loan after bitfunder closes

I have stated earlier in this thread that the goal was to have most of graet.loan repaid by mid 2014 this is still my goal - the changes at bitfunder hurt me too and i'm waiting to be repaid btc from several sources too - not a nice time.

I plan to stick around and honor my commitments
thanks for patience and understanding in these trying times
Graet

Honestly, by mid 2014 the Bitcoin price might be much higher. I hope you can be repaid as soon as possible so you can repay graet.loan.

From a holder of not significant shares

[User705]

Can someone explain to me why I keep seeing these old timers borrow in BTC.  That's about as bright as lending at the 0.25% fed funds rate??