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Author Topic: [BitFunder] Graet.Loan - Paying 0.05% interest daily  (Read 52578 times)
Graet
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May 28, 2013, 01:06:22 PM
Last edit: May 28, 2013, 03:18:08 PM by Graet
 #1

Loan to Graet (Graeme Tee)
https://bitfunder.com/asset/Graet.Loan

References:
http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=Graet
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=108716.0
Owns and runs Ozcoin Pooled Mining Pty Ltd and CrownCloud.net
Australian Director WeExchange Australia Pty Ltd

Interest:
- Shares shall pay an interest of 0.05% daily.

Shares value:
- A maximum of 200,000 shares will be issued
- Shares have a face value of 0.01 BTC
- Shares retain a minimum of $0.1 USD value each.

Should any event make Bitcoins become valued at less than $1 USD per Bitcoin or impossible to be transacted, you may request to redeem your shares for $0.1 USD instead.

Redeeming Shares:
- Shares can be redeemed at face value anytime upon request.
- Redeeming shares may take some time to liquidate positions or procure more BTC.

Description:
This loan is to hold and/or use BTC for on-demand needs for my projects, such as OzCoin, CrownCloud, etc.
This loan is not tied to the success or failure of any business.
This loan should not be defaulted on unless personal bankruptcy is officially declared.
Consider it a personal loan.

You can request refund of the loan at face value anytime.
Redeeming bonds may take some time to liquidate positions or procure more BTC if no liquid BTC is available.

| Ozcoin Pooled Mining Pty Ltd https://ozcoin.net Double Geometric Reward System https://lc.ozcoin.net for Litecoin mining DGM| https://crowncloud.net VPS and Dedicated Servers for the BTC community
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Sukrim
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May 28, 2013, 02:36:54 PM
Last edit: May 28, 2013, 03:13:35 PM by Sukrim
 #2

For those who wonder: 0.05% daily is very close to 18% APR uncompounded.

Please clarify "some time" to redeem bonds or at least give an upper bound, in the case of GIPPT "some time" was about half a year or more... Wink

Edit: spelink

https://www.coinlend.org <-- automated lending at various exchanges.
https://www.bitfinex.com <-- Trade BTC for other currencies and vice versa.
Mail me at Bitmessage: BM-BbiHiVv5qh858ULsyRDtpRrG9WjXN3xf
Graet
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May 28, 2013, 02:51:08 PM
 #3

For those who wonder: 0.05% daily is very close to 18% APR uncompounded.

Please clarify "some time" to reddem bonds or at least give an upper bound, in the case of GIPPT "some time" was about half a year or more... Wink
Depending on the quantity 7 to 14 days would seem reasonable Smiley

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May 28, 2013, 04:38:05 PM
 #4

Can anyone do a PT to BTCT.CO?

btc: 15sFnThw58hiGHYXyUAasgfauifTEB1ZF6
ronaldlee0917
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May 28, 2013, 05:06:31 PM
 #5

Does it mean that a fixed dividend of 0.01 * 0.05% = 0.00005 btc per share is paid every day?

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ThickAsThieves
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May 28, 2013, 05:23:44 PM
 #6

Can anyone do a PT to BTCT.CO?

No need to a PT, someone could just open a similar bond and then back it with Graet's shares if they like.
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May 28, 2013, 07:43:54 PM
 #7

from reading bitfunder there is no 1% fee to buy only sell. does that 1% fee apply to refunds like you intend?

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May 28, 2013, 07:45:06 PM
 #8

Does it mean that a fixed dividend of 0.01 * 0.05% = 0.00005 btc per share is paid every day?

add a 0 but it looks like yes .000005

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May 28, 2013, 09:01:35 PM
 #9

Excited to get into this Smiley.

Making Apps and Websites for people. I charge reasonable rates ($30-40/hour in BTC).
TradeFortress 🏕
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May 28, 2013, 10:14:11 PM
 #10

Nice offering. To those asking about a PT.. Why more counterparty risk? Spend five minuted making an account.

By the way, CoinLenders currently pays out more than this.

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May 28, 2013, 10:24:18 PM
 #11

Nice offering. To those asking about a PT.. Why more counterparty risk? Spend five minuted making an account.

By the way, CoinLenders currently pays out more than this.



I know this is off topic (but it kind of is on topic) - doesn't CoinLenders require a minimum investment of 1btc (off the top of my head, been a while since I looked)? This allows for 0.01.


Making Apps and Websites for people. I charge reasonable rates ($30-40/hour in BTC).
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May 28, 2013, 10:26:58 PM
 #12

Nice offering. To those asking about a PT.. Why more counterparty risk? Spend five minuted making an account.

By the way, CoinLenders currently pays out more than this.



I know this is off topic (but it kind of is on topic) - doesn't CoinLenders require a minimum investment of 1btc (off the top of my head, been a while since I looked)? This allows for 0.01.



This also appears to be a good option for rolling the dividends of other ventures. Hadn't heard of CoinLenders, I'll look into it.
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May 28, 2013, 10:51:43 PM
 #13

just took some shares....will take a bit more if still available in a few weeks when i'm around my cold storage

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May 29, 2013, 09:27:31 PM
 #14

Interest:
- Shares shall pay an interest of 0.05% daily.

Shares value:
- A maximum of 200,000 shares will be issued
- Shares have a face value of 0.01 BTC
- Shares retain a minimum of $0.1 USD value each.

Should any event make Bitcoins become valued at less than $1 USD per Bitcoin or impossible to be transacted, you may request to redeem your shares for $0.1 USD instead.

Redeeming Shares:
- Shares can be redeemed at face value anytime upon request.
- Redeeming shares may take some time to liquidate positions or procure more BTC.

Description:
This loan is to hold and/or use BTC for on-demand needs for my projects, such as OzCoin, CrownCloud, etc.
This loan is not tied to the success or failure of any business.
This loan should not be defaulted on unless personal bankruptcy is officially declared.
Consider it a personal loan.

You can request refund of the loan at face value anytime.
Redeeming bonds may take some time to liquidate positions or procure more BTC if no liquid BTC is available.

Quote from: Namworld
Interests:
- Bonds shall pay a variable interest of no less than 0.03% daily.

Bonds value:
- Bonds have a face value of 0.01 BTC
- Bonds retain a minimum of 0.01 USD value each. Should any event make Bitcoins become valued at less than 1 USD per Bitcoin or impossible to be transacted, you may request to redeem your bonds for 0.01 USD instead.

Redeeming Bonds:
- Bonds can be redeemed at face value anytime upon request.
- Redeeming bonds may take some time to liquidate positions or procure more BTC.

#############################
Straightforward loan paying 0.03% daily. Bonuses can be paid over that rate on a voluntary basis. However, only the 0.03% daily is guaranteed.

This loan is spent on whichever expenditures the borrower sees fit.
This loan is not tied to the success or failure of any business.
This loan should not be defaulted on unless personal bankruptcy is officially declared.
Consider it a personal loan.

You can request refund of loan at face value anytime.
Redeeming bonds may take some time to liquidate positions or procure more BTC if no liquid BTC is available.

Each bond retain a 0.01 USD value. If price falls under 1 USD per Bitcoin, you can request to redeem bonds for 0.01 USD each instead of 0.01 BTC. This clause can be requested anytime.

 Grin

By the way:
Quote
- Shares have a face value of 0.01 BTC
- Shares retain a minimum of $0.1 USD value each.

Should any event make Bitcoins become valued at less than $1 USD per Bitcoin or impossible to be transacted, you may request to redeem your shares for $0.1 USD instead.
That should be 10 USD per BTC I believe.
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May 30, 2013, 09:19:29 PM
 #15

So will BTC-BOND up its interest now that there's competitor?
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May 30, 2013, 09:34:17 PM
 #16

So will BTC-BOND up its interest now that there's competitor?

Nope. Not interested in paying more. If people want to switch, I'll just buyback their bonds as per contract.
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May 30, 2013, 10:09:18 PM
 #17

Am I the only one thinking that this is a scam? Yes, he does appear to have good references, but still, he is requesting a loan currently worth around 225,000 USD or 2,000 BTC. It says that it is not tied to any business being successful or not, so how on earth is he going to raise 0.05% or 112 USD per day starting right away?

For all who did not realize, 0.05% per day is 18.25% per year, which seems somewhat high.
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May 30, 2013, 10:31:12 PM
 #18

It says that it is not tied to any business being successful or not, so how on earth is he going to raise 0.05% or 112 USD per day starting right away?

Two things about that statement by him :

1.  It was just part of what he copied/pasted from namworld's contract - as with all copy/pastes there can be no certainty to what extent the person using someone else's contract actually understands/means what it says.
2.  Not tied to the success of any business means that what he pays you doesn't change based on how well his businesses do.  It doesn't mean that he doesn't have businesses that he expects to make the profit.

What's missing is an unambiguous statement that the funds will be used and kept predominantly BTC-denominated.  The two most risky forms of loans are:

1.  Ones that are taken to invest in someone else's higher-rate paying investment (see pirate).  These ones default if/when the underlying investment turns out to be a scam.  That is NOT the case here.
2.  Ones that are taken to be converted into a different currency for use.  The usual culprit here is loans taken denominated in BTC that are then converted for use into USD.  These default when BTC rises sharply vs USD - as even if the USD-denominated business is very profitable it still can't support the debt at the higher rate.  Examples of this include Bakewell, loads of loans on BTCjam, various other mining outfits (e.g. BTC-Mining in my view) and failed businesses that believe or claim to be BTC-denomnated whilst actually having high USD exposure (e.g. Ziggap).

There's no assurance that 2. isn't the case here.  The funds are for use in some of his businesses - but are they going to remain BTC-denominated?  If not (or if the businesses aren't already profitable) then some assurance should really be provided that he has BTC-denominated assets sufficient to repay the principal in the event the businesses do badly and/or BTC rises sharply vs USD (or whatever currency the loans will be converted to).

I'm only aware of three other ongoing offers comparable to this one:

Namworld's one - which pays a lower rate, isn't currently looking to raise more funds and provides a spreadsheet showing current BTC-denominated assets well in excess of the bond capital.
TradeFortress' loans service - a higher rate than this and used for BTC-denominated loans.
My own bond (which you won't know about as although it's denominated in BTC it's traded in LTC so in the alt section) - which pays a higher rate, is NOT currently selling more and is backed by BTC-denominated assets exceeding loan capital AND by LTC-denominated assets exceeding loan capital.

The key point is that all three hold (or at least claim to hold - outside viewers can't be certain) BTC-denominated assets matching or exceeding the owed capital.  I don't know how much TF's one has in debt - but I know Namworld and mine are both significantly smaller (mine's paused at 250 BTC for now).

If the capital is being used for speculative purposes (e.g. to develop businesses that currently show little/no profit) then that is NOT a problem - so long as he has BTC-denominated assets able to be realised to cover the debt if necessary,  Some assurance on that point would be good.
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May 31, 2013, 05:29:00 AM
 #19

By the way:
Quote
- Shares have a face value of 0.01 BTC
- Shares retain a minimum of $0.1 USD value each.

Should any event make Bitcoins become valued at less than $1 USD per Bitcoin or impossible to be transacted, you may request to redeem your shares for $0.1 USD instead.
That should be 10 USD per BTC I believe.

I actually messaged Graet about this before seeing this thread but has not gotten any response back yet.

This whole thing (copy-pasted with error that is not being fixed for days after being pointed out) looks very fishy to be honest, and a lot of money is involved in this.
Graet
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May 31, 2013, 05:31:41 AM
 #20

sorry, had surgery yesterday (thus been away from internet > 24 hours)
I will address these questions when the anaesthetic is more worn off
Graet

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