[BitFunder] Graet.Loan - Paying 0.05% interest daily

[Graet]

Loan to Graet (Graeme Tee)
https://bitfunder.com/asset/Graet.Loan

References:
http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=Graet
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=108716.0
Owns and runs Ozcoin Pooled Mining Pty Ltd and CrownCloud.net
Australian Director WeExchange Australia Pty Ltd

Interest:
- Shares shall pay an interest of 0.05% daily.

Shares value:
- A maximum of 200,000 shares will be issued
- Shares have a face value of 0.01 BTC
- Shares retain a minimum of $0.1 USD value each.

Should any event make Bitcoins become valued at less than $1 USD per Bitcoin or impossible to be transacted, you may request to redeem your shares for $0.1 USD instead.

Redeeming Shares:
- Shares can be redeemed at face value anytime upon request.
- Redeeming shares may take some time to liquidate positions or procure more BTC.

Description:
This loan is to hold and/or use BTC for on-demand needs for my projects, such as OzCoin, CrownCloud, etc.
This loan is not tied to the success or failure of any business.
This loan should not be defaulted on unless personal bankruptcy is officially declared.
Consider it a personal loan.

You can request refund of the loan at face value anytime.
Redeeming bonds may take some time to liquidate positions or procure more BTC if no liquid BTC is available.

[1714962306]

1714962306

[1714962306]

1714962306

[1714962306]

1714962306

[Sukrim]

For those who wonder: 0.05% daily is very close to 18% APR uncompounded.

Please clarify "some time" to redeem bonds or at least give an upper bound, in the case of GIPPT "some time" was about half a year or more...

Edit: spelink

[Graet]

For those who wonder: 0.05% daily is very close to 18% APR uncompounded.

Please clarify "some time" to reddem bonds or at least give an upper bound, in the case of GIPPT "some time" was about half a year or more...

Depending on the quantity 7 to 14 days would seem reasonable

[kokojie]

Can anyone do a PT to BTCT.CO?

[ronaldlee0917]

Does it mean that a fixed dividend of 0.01 * 0.05% = 0.00005 btc per share is paid every day?

[ThickAsThieves]

Can anyone do a PT to BTCT.CO?

No need to a PT, someone could just open a similar bond and then back it with Graet's shares if they like.

[camolist]

from reading bitfunder there is no 1% fee to buy only sell. does that 1% fee apply to refunds like you intend?

[camolist]

Does it mean that a fixed dividend of 0.01 * 0.05% = 0.00005 btc per share is paid every day?

add a 0 but it looks like yes .000005

[VJain]

Excited to get into this .

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

Nice offering. To those asking about a PT.. Why more counterparty risk? Spend five minuted making an account.

By the way, CoinLenders currently pays out more than this.

[VJain]

Nice offering. To those asking about a PT.. Why more counterparty risk? Spend five minuted making an account.

By the way, CoinLenders currently pays out more than this.

I know this is off topic (but it kind of is on topic) - doesn't CoinLenders require a minimum investment of 1btc (off the top of my head, been a while since I looked)? This allows for 0.01.

[Gomeler]

Nice offering. To those asking about a PT.. Why more counterparty risk? Spend five minuted making an account.

By the way, CoinLenders currently pays out more than this.

I know this is off topic (but it kind of is on topic) - doesn't CoinLenders require a minimum investment of 1btc (off the top of my head, been a while since I looked)? This allows for 0.01.

This also appears to be a good option for rolling the dividends of other ventures. Hadn't heard of CoinLenders, I'll look into it.

[camolist]

just took some shares....will take a bit more if still available in a few weeks when i'm around my cold storage

[Namworld]

Interest:
- Shares shall pay an interest of 0.05% daily.

Shares value:
- A maximum of 200,000 shares will be issued
- Shares have a face value of 0.01 BTC
- Shares retain a minimum of $0.1 USD value each.

Should any event make Bitcoins become valued at less than $1 USD per Bitcoin or impossible to be transacted, you may request to redeem your shares for $0.1 USD instead.

Redeeming Shares:
- Shares can be redeemed at face value anytime upon request.
- Redeeming shares may take some time to liquidate positions or procure more BTC.

Description:
This loan is to hold and/or use BTC for on-demand needs for my projects, such as OzCoin, CrownCloud, etc.
This loan is not tied to the success or failure of any business.
This loan should not be defaulted on unless personal bankruptcy is officially declared.
Consider it a personal loan.

You can request refund of the loan at face value anytime.
Redeeming bonds may take some time to liquidate positions or procure more BTC if no liquid BTC is available.

Interests:
- Bonds shall pay a variable interest of no less than 0.03% daily.

Bonds value:
- Bonds have a face value of 0.01 BTC
- Bonds retain a minimum of 0.01 USD value each. Should any event make Bitcoins become valued at less than 1 USD per Bitcoin or impossible to be transacted, you may request to redeem your bonds for 0.01 USD instead.

Redeeming Bonds:
- Bonds can be redeemed at face value anytime upon request.
- Redeeming bonds may take some time to liquidate positions or procure more BTC.

#############################
Straightforward loan paying 0.03% daily. Bonuses can be paid over that rate on a voluntary basis. However, only the 0.03% daily is guaranteed.

This loan is spent on whichever expenditures the borrower sees fit.
This loan is not tied to the success or failure of any business.
This loan should not be defaulted on unless personal bankruptcy is officially declared.
Consider it a personal loan.

You can request refund of loan at face value anytime.
Redeeming bonds may take some time to liquidate positions or procure more BTC if no liquid BTC is available.

Each bond retain a 0.01 USD value. If price falls under 1 USD per Bitcoin, you can request to redeem bonds for 0.01 USD each instead of 0.01 BTC. This clause can be requested anytime.

 

By the way:

- Shares have a face value of 0.01 BTC
- Shares retain a minimum of $0.1 USD value each.

Should any event make Bitcoins become valued at less than $1 USD per Bitcoin or impossible to be transacted, you may request to redeem your shares for $0.1 USD instead.

That should be 10 USD per BTC I believe.

[gog1]

So will BTC-BOND up its interest now that there's competitor?

[Namworld]

So will BTC-BOND up its interest now that there's competitor?

Nope. Not interested in paying more. If people want to switch, I'll just buyback their bonds as per contract.

[hak8or]

Am I the only one thinking that this is a scam? Yes, he does appear to have good references, but still, he is requesting a loan currently worth around 225,000 USD or 2,000 BTC. It says that it is not tied to any business being successful or not, so how on earth is he going to raise 0.05% or 112 USD per day starting right away?

For all who did not realize, 0.05% per day is 18.25% per year, which seems somewhat high.

[Deprived]

It says that it is not tied to any business being successful or not, so how on earth is he going to raise 0.05% or 112 USD per day starting right away?

Two things about that statement by him :

1.  It was just part of what he copied/pasted from namworld's contract - as with all copy/pastes there can be no certainty to what extent the person using someone else's contract actually understands/means what it says.
2.  Not tied to the success of any business means that what he pays you doesn't change based on how well his businesses do.  It doesn't mean that he doesn't have businesses that he expects to make the profit.

What's missing is an unambiguous statement that the funds will be used and kept predominantly BTC-denominated.  The two most risky forms of loans are:

1.  Ones that are taken to invest in someone else's higher-rate paying investment (see pirate).  These ones default if/when the underlying investment turns out to be a scam.  That is NOT the case here.
2.  Ones that are taken to be converted into a different currency for use.  The usual culprit here is loans taken denominated in BTC that are then converted for use into USD.  These default when BTC rises sharply vs USD - as even if the USD-denominated business is very profitable it still can't support the debt at the higher rate.  Examples of this include Bakewell, loads of loans on BTCjam, various other mining outfits (e.g. BTC-Mining in my view) and failed businesses that believe or claim to be BTC-denomnated whilst actually having high USD exposure (e.g. Ziggap).

There's no assurance that 2. isn't the case here.  The funds are for use in some of his businesses - but are they going to remain BTC-denominated?  If not (or if the businesses aren't already profitable) then some assurance should really be provided that he has BTC-denominated assets sufficient to repay the principal in the event the businesses do badly and/or BTC rises sharply vs USD (or whatever currency the loans will be converted to).

I'm only aware of three other ongoing offers comparable to this one:

Namworld's one - which pays a lower rate, isn't currently looking to raise more funds and provides a spreadsheet showing current BTC-denominated assets well in excess of the bond capital.
TradeFortress' loans service - a higher rate than this and used for BTC-denominated loans.
My own bond (which you won't know about as although it's denominated in BTC it's traded in LTC so in the alt section) - which pays a higher rate, is NOT currently selling more and is backed by BTC-denominated assets exceeding loan capital AND by LTC-denominated assets exceeding loan capital.

The key point is that all three hold (or at least claim to hold - outside viewers can't be certain) BTC-denominated assets matching or exceeding the owed capital.  I don't know how much TF's one has in debt - but I know Namworld and mine are both significantly smaller (mine's paused at 250 BTC for now).

If the capital is being used for speculative purposes (e.g. to develop businesses that currently show little/no profit) then that is NOT a problem - so long as he has BTC-denominated assets able to be realised to cover the debt if necessary,  Some assurance on that point would be good.

[qnfauf]

By the way:

- Shares have a face value of 0.01 BTC
- Shares retain a minimum of $0.1 USD value each.

Should any event make Bitcoins become valued at less than $1 USD per Bitcoin or impossible to be transacted, you may request to redeem your shares for $0.1 USD instead.

That should be 10 USD per BTC I believe.

I actually messaged Graet about this before seeing this thread but has not gotten any response back yet.

This whole thing (copy-pasted with error that is not being fixed for days after being pointed out) looks very fishy to be honest, and a lot of money is involved in this.

[Graet]

sorry, had surgery yesterday (thus been away from internet > 24 hours)
I will address these questions when the anaesthetic is more worn off
Graet

[Kushedout]

Hope your doing great now, Graet. 

Btw, hate to bring this up now, but, do you have a Deathswitch?

[gog1]

Wish you a speedy recovery.  Would like to see some answer to the concerns raised by Deprived.

Thanks.

[zoinky]

Why is it that people sell lower than .01/share?  What exactly is the process to get a refund at face value?  Are they just people that want their bitcoin ASAP?

[tolan77]

Wish you a speedy recovery.  Would like to see some answer to the concerns raised by Deprived.

Thanks.

I hope everything ok his last post was that one. I too would like to see his answers to that.

Why is it that people sell lower than .01/share?  What exactly is the process to get a refund at face value?  Are they just people that want their bitcoin ASAP?

Supposedly the process to refund is just to contact Graet himself and trade him shares for btc. Though with his surgery and stuff lately people are probably selling under .01 because they don't want to wait for him and they just want their BTC asap.

[Queezy]

Still no reply from Graet? I hope everything is ok.

[deadweasel]

Still no reply from Graet? I hope everything is ok.

He's alive and kicking.  Trust me, he justifiably banned me this morning from #ozcoin because accidentally spammed the crap out of his channel with an error log (my bad). 

[Graet]

Hi I'm here
will reply in morning
recovery has been slower than hoped

[DeaDTerra]

Hi I'm here
will reply in morning
recovery has been slower than hoped

Take all the time you need to get better
//DeaDTerra

[QuiveringGibbage]

Hi I'm here
will reply in morning
recovery has been slower than hoped

u know it's 3am? u should be in bed. oh wait, West side... it's only 12am...

ignore me..

QG

[lunarboy]

Hi Graet

Interested to know apart from the simple loan aspect of your security, do you have any plans to grow this asset?
By that I mean, do you have any intention to buy back shares at a higher price or increase the interest rate after a certain point?

Thanks

Lunar

[joele]

I thought you can request refund of the loan at face value, why someone selling cheap their shares?
Is there a problem with Graet.loan right now?

[ThickAsThieves]

I thought you can request refund of the loan at face value, why someone selling cheap their shares?
Is there a problem with Graet.loan right now?

People are just dumb or in a rush sometimes.

[kslavik]

I thought you can request refund of the loan at face value, why someone selling cheap their shares?
Is there a problem with Graet.loan right now?

People are just dumb or in a rush sometimes.

It could be Graet himself selling at discount to get some BTC urgently.

[Queezy]

And now people are buying over face value, markets are silly sometimes 

[joele]

Graet, any plans of adding more 0.01 shares?

[Graet]

Hi Guys,
Back on deck, still some healing to do but brain is clearer than it has been for a month.

I plan to release the remaining 50K in 24 hours time approx 1230UTC.

The idea behind Graet.Loan was to consolidate loans established and reduce interest being paid after some unfortunate incidents at Ozcoin and provide some capital to restructure the Ozcoin server setup, expand crowncloud.net and fund other projects in the works (one I hope to be announcing within 48 hours).
I had the options to approach my bank for a personal loan,or with Ukyo's help setup Graet.Loan, being that all of my businesses are Bitcoin based I thought it logical to try Graet.Loan on Bitfunder. I appreciate the support shown to Graet.Loan by the community so far.

This is a loan, so the plan is to repay (buy back) Graet.Loan, I would not expect this to commence before July 2014 and would hope to complete repayments by July 2016.
The only way to redeem Graet.Loan currently is contact me either by Pm on forum or email graet <at> ozco <dot> in, I will ask you to transfer Graet.Loan to Graet on BitFunder and supply me with a Bitcoin wallet address. Once I confirm the transfer I will pay Bitcoin to supplied address, I cannot currently see an easy way to transfer BTC on BitFunder.

I will read back over the thread and address any questions I missed soon
Apologies again for the slow replies, I will be more active again
Best wishes
Graet

[thirdlight]

Interest:
- Shares shall pay an interest of 0.05% daily.

But not yesterday?

[Progressive]

I have sent a request for redemption six days ago, no reply since.

Hello,
I would like to request a refund of Graet.Loan at the face value.
I have 4,000 shares (i.e. 40 BTC).

What is the procedure?

Cheers.

[thy]

I have sent a request for redemption six days ago, no reply since.

Hello,
I would like to request a refund of Graet.Loan at the face value.
I have 4,000 shares (i.e. 40 BTC).

What is the procedure?

Cheers.

I did request a refund to, no response here either sofar.

[ronaldlee0917]

I have sent a request for redemption six days ago, no reply since.

Hello,
I would like to request a refund of Graet.Loan at the face value.
I have 4,000 shares (i.e. 40 BTC).

What is the procedure?

Cheers.

I did request a refund to, no response here either sofar.

+1
Want to take advantage of the high bitcoin price now

[supermono]

Any news on this asset? Will it be continuing on BitFunder? Are any redemption requests being fulfilled nowadays? Thanks!

[gannicus]

I think it is pretty obvious that redemptions are not occuring right now. If Graet and Ukyo had funds ready for redemption, they would be buying their shares at bitfunder itself for <0.01 instead of redeeming yours for 0.01. The only option left for those who wish to redeem the shares at face value is to wait. I have a considerable amount of BTC in those shares, but I am aware that there is no way to redeem them any time soon at face value, and I also do not want to redeem them with a loss.

[Progressive]

I think it is pretty obvious that redemptions are not occuring right now. If Graet and Ukyo had funds ready for redemption, they would be buying their shares at bitfunder itself for <0.01 instead of redeeming yours for 0.01. The only option left for those who wish to redeem the shares at face value is to wait. I have a considerable amount of BTC in those shares, but I am aware that there is no way to redeem them any time soon at face value, and I also do not want to redeem them with a loss.

I have no problem waiting for the redemption, but I would like to hear any response from the issuer.

[supermono]

I think it is pretty obvious that redemptions are not occuring right now. If Graet and Ukyo had funds ready for redemption, they would be buying their shares at bitfunder itself for <0.01 instead of redeeming yours for 0.01. The only option left for those who wish to redeem the shares at face value is to wait. I have a considerable amount of BTC in those shares, but I am aware that there is no way to redeem them any time soon at face value, and I also do not want to redeem them with a loss.

Wait how long? If we don't sell by November 1, and then the issuer still doesn't come through, then we're really screwed.

I'm aware that the circumstances going on right now are pretty exceptional. But it seems to me that a contract is still a contract, and if they don't have enough cash on hand to redeem, they should use their credit card or get a traditional bank loan if they have to in order to get the funds to cover the redemptions. After all, it's not like most people are suddenly for no reason deciding they want to redeem (although even in that case, the redemption requests should still be fulfilled). In this case, most redemption requests are as a result of the policy changes Ukyo himself implemented, where he created all these new verification requirements and told US users and non-verified users that they can only sell until Nov. 1, and that all their BTC and shares will be transferred out of their accounts on Dec. 2. So that imposes a certain deadline on the process. When Ukyo made his announcement, he should have anticipated the US and non-verified bondholders needing to redeem, and should have secured the necessary financing. I'm worried about the precedent that could be set here. Otherwise, what is to stop someone else in the future from opening an exchange and raising funds by selling bonds, then telling the majority of investors they have only a few weeks to get out, not redeeming bonds, and forcing people to sell back at a loss just to meet the exchange operator's arbitrary deadline? I realize that these are trying times, and a situation that Ukyo probably didn't envision when he originally issued the bonds, so I do not mean to accuse Ukyo of planning to scam investors or anything. But the result seems to be the same, and I worry about the precedent if a bond issuer is allowed to just ignore the redemption clauses in their contracts like this. I'm not really happy with explanations from Ukyo like "the expectation was to use the funds for other things."

Graet I am less sure about; I don't know if Graet was involved in planning the policy changes at BitFunder or not (if he was involved in planning the policy changes, then IMHO he should have obtained the necessary financing to fulfill bond redemption requests as well). Actually, my opinion is that if a bond issuer does not have enough cash on hand to redeem a bond when requested, he should always get the cash and fulfill the redemption request, even if he has to take out another loan to do it, not just in this case. Otherwise what's the value of a bond if issuers are not going to redeem it when requested? But it just seems worse in this case if Ukyo makes these policy changes without obtaining the cash to cover redemption requests on his own bond. And then the lack of communication is the worst thing; it would be different if an announcement were made that bond redemption requests would be fulfilled on October 25 (for example). At least then investors could be sure that they will be able to get out by redeeming before the Nov. 1 deadline. I don't know if anyone else has heard anything from Graet, but I sent him a PM and never got a reponse back. I'm sure he is probably getting tons of PMs these days and may be overwhelmed. But if he doesn't want to respond to tons of PMs from individual investors asking the same questions, the solution is to post an announcement in the forum with basic information like 1) the future plans for the assets he is managing and 2) how he will be handling redemption requests, or even a short one-line announcement like "I am still checking on options; I will be making an announcement about my assets and redemption requests by (particular date before November 1)".

[thy]

I think it is pretty obvious that redemptions are not occuring right now. If Graet and Ukyo had funds ready for redemption, they would be buying their shares at bitfunder itself for <0.01 instead of redeeming yours for 0.01. The only option left for those who wish to redeem the shares at face value is to wait. I have a considerable amount of BTC in those shares, but I am aware that there is no way to redeem them any time soon at face value, and I also do not want to redeem them with a loss.

First it dosen't really matter if they have the funds in hands or not, they have already taken way to long time to redeem the shares and they should have given better updates to what progress there making in the redeem process, they are clearly in violation of there contracts and should have bought up the nessesary btc by now if there short or have taken up other (btc) loans(without clauses to redeem premature of when they expect to be able to payback the loan) to cover the situations with redeem requests that hasent been fulfilled yet.
Secondly im pretty sure they at least have some funds avaliable and both get more each day, if they use that to buy up stocks under face value instead of doing what they can to redeem shares they are violation there contracts even worse...

[thy]

I think it is pretty obvious that redemptions are not occuring right now. If Graet and Ukyo had funds ready for redemption, they would be buying their shares at bitfunder itself for <0.01 instead of redeeming yours for 0.01. The only option left for those who wish to redeem the shares at face value is to wait. I have a considerable amount of BTC in those shares, but I am aware that there is no way to redeem them any time soon at face value, and I also do not want to redeem them with a loss.

Wait how long? If we don't sell by November 1, and then the issuer still doesn't come through, then we're really screwed.

I'm aware that the circumstances going on right now are pretty exceptional. But it seems to me that a contract is still a contract, and if they don't have enough cash on hand to redeem, they should use their credit card or get a traditional bank loan if they have to in order to get the funds to cover the redemptions. After all, it's not like most people are suddenly for no reason deciding they want to redeem (although even in that case, the redemption requests should still be fulfilled). In this case, most redemption requests are as a result of the policy changes Ukyo himself implemented, where he created all these new verification requirements and told US users and non-verified users that they can only sell until Nov. 1, and that all their BTC and shares will be transferred out of their accounts on Dec. 2. So that imposes a certain deadline on the process. When Ukyo made his announcement, he should have anticipated the US and non-verified bondholders needing to redeem, and should have secured the necessary financing. I'm worried about the precedent that could be set here. Otherwise, what is to stop someone else in the future from opening an exchange and raising funds by selling bonds, then telling the majority of investors they have only a few weeks to get out, not redeeming bonds, and forcing people to sell back at a loss just to meet the exchange operator's arbitrary deadline? I realize that these are trying times, and a situation that Ukyo probably didn't envision when he originally issued the bonds, so I do not mean to accuse Ukyo of planning to scam investors or anything. But the result seems to be the same, and I worry about the precedent if a bond issuer is allowed to just ignore the redemption clauses in their contracts like this. I'm not really happy with explanations from Ukyo like "the expectation was to use the funds for other things."

Graet I am less sure about; I don't know if Graet was involved in planning the policy changes at BitFunder or not (if he was involved in planning the policy changes, then IMHO he should have obtained the necessary financing to fulfill bond redemption requests as well). Actually, my opinion is that if a bond issuer does not have enough cash on hand to redeem a bond when requested, he should always get the cash and fulfill the redemption request, even if he has to take out another loan to do it, not just in this case. Otherwise what's the value of a bond if issuers are not going to redeem it when requested? But it just seems worse in this case if Ukyo makes these policy changes without obtaining the cash to cover redemption requests on his own bond. And then the lack of communication is the worst thing; it would be different if an announcement were made that bond redemption requests would be fulfilled on October 25 (for example). At least then investors could be sure that they will be able to get out by redeeming before the Nov. 1 deadline. I don't know if anyone else has heard anything from Graet, but I sent him a PM and never got a reponse back. I'm sure he is probably getting tons of PMs these days and may be overwhelmed. But if he doesn't want to respond to tons of PMs from individual investors asking the same questions, the solution is to post an announcement in the forum with basic information like 1) the future plans for the assets he is managing and 2) how he will be handling redemption requests, or even a short one-line announcement like "I am still checking on options; I will be making an announcement about my assets and redemption requests by (particular date before November 1)".

I totally agree to your post. Ukyo should have been prepared and should have had most if not all btc's needed for redeems ready, then if not all requests could be handled the first day, all should at least have been solved within a day or two when he would be more certain of the exact amounts needed

Great havent been logged into bicointalk after the 11 oct (under his own name at least)
Ukyo seems to have been in every day but havent made a single post after 12 oct.
None of them have aswered my PM's or fullfilled my redeem requests.

[gannicus]

I understand and I share your concerns aswell. The thing is: we really can't do anything. At least they are paying the interests, which shows that they still have (some) commitment to these loans, and enforces the theory that they aren't responding because they are really busy. If they did not really care at all, they wouldn't be even doing that.

[Bananery]

Yes, we're fucked with this one as well. Graem is an idiot, who didn't think much when he took this loan or he's just can't see the simple fact of rising bitcoin exchange rate.

He took this loan to pay another loan. He says he could get a loan from a bank, but decided to try bitcoin loan on bitfunder. I made simple calculations. Graem took 2000BTC loan and converted it into fiat, he got around 225,000USD.

If he redeems all the shares by the end of 2013, which he won't, he'll pay back roughly 450,000USD. This makes it 100% in interest for 7 month. What bank gives loans with those interests? Maybe mafia.

Graem would have been better if he just took that loan and bought bitcoins, paid back fiat and now he would be much richer. Now he's broke and will probably go bankrupt soon.

Graem also lied about this "This loan is not tied to the success or failure of any business."

It is tied to his CrownCloud and OzCoin. OzCoin is currently 38THash/s. With 2% fee, he can make 332BTC in one year if his percentage stays the same. It won't, mining will soon be the thing of big companies who don't need any pools. It means that his share will drop.

His CrownCloud business is 100% fiat and doesn't pay much. Therefore, Graem's estimations to redeem by 2016 are bullshit. I don't even know how he calculated those estimates, he probably thought exchange rate will stay at 100USD for years now.

Tell me Graem, if the exchange rate is 500USD in 2016, will you come up with 1 million by then? And if it is 1000USD?

The way exchange rate grows, you're paying mafia like interest rates now, Graem. So, stop paying dividends, sell as much as you can what you own, I don't care what you, just redeem as much as possible as fast as possible. I'm prepared for no dividends and less than face value rather than dragging this into 2016, when we'll lose almost 100% of our investments.

[Progressive]

Well, at least Ukyo replied (maybe thanks to the Bananery's rant).

I thought that Graet needed bitcoins (not fiat) due to the issue with his OzCoin pool. Did he said anywhere that he is converting the BTC to fiat?

[TsuyokuNaritai]

TradeFortress has announced that the Great debt owned by BTCInvest is not being honored, and that as well as the lost bitcoins it's making necessary extra complications & verification requirements in the liquidation process for BTCInvest's 147 investors.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=135157.msg3412811#msg3412811

Please could you respond. Thanks.

[Bananery]

Graem must be shocked and in disbelief how bad this loan turned out. I want numbers on his BTC and fiat income. Numbers on investments and any other assets that can be liquidated. Numbers on redeemed shares and request length.

Graem, if you can't afford to redeem this loan fast, stop paying dividends as Ukyo does and put every penny you get into redeeming.

As I already said, I'm prepared for no dividends and less than face value rather than dragging this into the future even by a second longer than necessary.

[julz]

While a lack of communication is worrying in itself - surely it's unreasonable to expect borrowers like this to be in a position to pay back a large percentage of the money at short notice.
Aside from the obvious exodus of US holders - there are probably many who just want to exit because of the increased exchange rate.

If you asked someone to suddenly cough up 25% of their home loan - they'd also not be in a position to do it, but that doesn't mean they can't afford the loan payments.

The circumstances are clearly unexpected by all.. and if Graet were to liquidate assets to pay people back sooner - it would pretty much defeat the purpose of having taken out this loan.

If he just communicated more, people (like me) might be willing to buy more of these shares - which would help those who need to exit.. but without the communication - we're left wondering/speculating if the underlying businesses are not going well (overexposure to mining, now with massively reduced income due to difficulty?)

In short - a failure to be able to quickly pay out in what amounts to a 'rush on the bank' is not such a concern - but the lack of information regarding his financial affairs is.

[Bananery]

Home loans are paid in fiat. These are bitcoins we are talking about, which went up in value about 100% since Graem Tee took this loan. His pool income will decrease, not because difficulty increases, but because mining is increasingly becoming the business of companies and large mining farms that don't need any pools.

His CrownCloud is purely fiat, and while pays a little, it is still fiat. If bitcoin goes up even more, Graem will soon have troubles to pay even the interest, and the loan itself will be very very hard to repay by face value of bonds.

Doesn't really matter if he converted BTC into fiat or not, part of which he did, the truth still is that raising BTC exchange will make harder and harder to pay anything.

[TurdHurdur]

With BitFunder closing down will you be paying the dividend like Ukyo intends to?

[ADgordo]

With BitFunder closing down will you be paying the dividend like Ukyo intends to?

Will he be taking 5 minutes to communicate?

[ohyeahok]

what can we do for the bitfunder close.
please Greaet.
give we a message.

[szmarco]

where is Graet?
It's time to say something...

[Progressive]

My plan originaly was to buy the bonds and wait for Graet's planned redemptions (from summer 2014 to 2015).
But the fact that Graet is not communicating is worrying me.

As far as I know Graet is from Austraulia - what steps should I take in order to prepare evidence before contacting Australian authorities? Anyone familiar with Australian law?

Did anyone of you received any info from Graet/Graem at IRC or other channels?

[Graet]

Hi folks,
Apologies for not responding earlier, been very busy plus trying to work out the best way to manage graet.loan with the changes at BitFunder. My initial hope had was to find a larger investor that could buy graet.loan from US based lenders and continue on BitFunder, BitFunder announcing it will close made that harder.

Timing in BitcoinWorld seems to be an important thing, the forums were down for days, came back, I went on a family vacation and a few hours after I left changes at BitFunder were announced, by the time I got home my portfolio had lost > 60% BTC value and I had a large number of redeem requests. In the past I have been able to fulfill redeem requests quickly but I do not have the liquidity to pay out many requests at once. The loan was mainly used to consolidate multiple smaller loans and to be able to use a central management system to pay interest, also in the past when possible I have bought back graet.loan on the market, not all 200,000 issued are still in circulation.

I still consider graet.loan to be a loan and intend to continue to pay interest and to buy back as I am able.

Best wishes
Graet

[thecoinjournal]

Hi folks,
Apologies for not responding earlier, been very busy plus trying to work out the best way to manage graet.loan with the changes at BitFunder. My initial hope had was to find a larger investor that could buy graet.loan from US based lenders and continue on BitFunder, BitFunder announcing it will close made that harder.

Timing in BitcoinWorld seems to be an important thing, the forums were down for days, came back, I went on a family vacation and a few hours after I left changes at BitFunder were announced, by the time I got home my portfolio had lost > 60% BTC value and I had a large number of redeem requests. In the past I have been able to fulfill redeem requests quickly but I do not have the liquidity to pay out many requests at once. The loan was mainly used to consolidate multiple smaller loans and to be able to use a central management system to pay interest, also in the past when possible I have bought back graet.loan on the market, not all 200,000 issued are still in circulation.

I still consider graet.loan to be a loan and intend to continue to pay interest and to buy back as I am able.

Best wishes
Graet

Thank you so much Graet, I'm holding a small amount of Graet.Loan and would trust you.

[ru0chen]

I world continue hold the bonds when you make a  good treatment of graet.loan : Continue daily dividend, can be redeemed at the right time

[ohyeahok]

i have 1099..
if bitfunder close.
how can we receive the interest.
thanks.

[digit]

What will happen with GPT.YABMC & GPT.ESecBTC?

[Bananery]

I have bought back graet.loan on the market, not all 200,000 issued are still in circulation.

How much is still in circulation?

I still consider graet.loan to be a loan and intend to continue to pay interest and to buy back as I am able.

Whatever, doesn't mean shit what you consider. Give us the numbers, how much is there to redeem and how much assests you have that you can liquidate. What are your income streams? What is the risk of default in case bitcoin raises to 1k USD, 5k, 10k?

While you were busy on your vacation you lost 60% of portfolio? That is very irresponsible considering how much liabilities you have.

Give us numbers, because your considerations are just empty words. And if there is a risk of default in case of increasing bitcoin exchange rates, which is happening as we speak, then just tell it. We don't want to be in dark. If you don't give us numbers, I will start considering sponsoring someone to pay you a visit and get the numbers and real situation.

[wolfbiter]

I still consider graet.loan to be a loan and intend to continue to pay interest and to buy back as I am able.

First, thanks for the update! Sorry you're getting so much flame.
Second, are you going to convert graet.loan shares into direct shares when Bitfunder closes on December 1st? Or do you have another plan?

Thanks!

[crumbs]

Can someone explain the reasoning behind investing in "shares" (traded as stocks?) of  a "personal loan" (bonds?), with redemption terms defined as

"You can request refund of the loan at face value anytime.
Redeeming bonds may take some time to liquidate positions or procure more BTC if no liquid BTC is available."?  

What recourse is there when the issuer finds himself short of "liquid BTC," thus making the time frame "some time"?
Can the terms of the OP be reduced to "Lend me money & i'll pay you back when it's convenient for me"?
Thanks.

[Bananery]

Can the terms of the OP be reduced to "Lend me money & i'll pay you back when it's convenient for me"?
Thanks.

I think it's pointless, because by now everyone realizes that Graem lied about several points in his terms, including the one you mention.

[julz]

Can someone explain the reasoning behind investing in "shares" (traded as stocks?) of  a "personal loan" (bonds?), with redemption terms defined as

"You can request refund of the loan at face value anytime.
Redeeming bonds may take some time to liquidate positions or procure more BTC if no liquid BTC is available."?  

What recourse is there when the issuer finds himself short of "liquid BTC," thus making the time frame "some time"?
Can the terms of the OP be reduced to "Lend me money & i'll pay you back when it's convenient for me"?
Thanks.

The reasoning would presumably be that by having them 'tradable as stocks' - holders can exit their position (at what under normal conditions would be close to face value) even if the rate of people wishing to exit is slightly higher than available from the borrower.
It wouldn't make sense to take out a loan if at any time the borrower was able to refund the face value of the entire amount... so it should have been obvious to all that at certain lender demand levels it would be unfeasable to pay out immediately.

As it happens of course - the combination of bitfunder closure and people just wishing to redeem due to the rise in BTC value has clearly passed that limit.
This in itself shouldn't be a worry (aside from the now significant haircuts taken by those needing to exit).. but combined with the lack of transparency regarding the borrower's financials, and the fact we don't know to what extent a BTC price-rise puts the borrower at risk of default, it's surely now a worry - providing yet more redemption pressure.

Say what you want about the risk/foolishness of lending money under conditions of such low transparency of the underlying businesses... but the mechanism of lending as a 'share-like' asset seems a reasonable model otherwise. (with of course the usual caveats about legality and recourse when taking a risk on any assets on these unregulated 'exchanges')

[crumbs]

Can someone explain the reasoning behind investing in "shares" (traded as stocks?) of  a "personal loan" (bonds?), with redemption terms defined as

"You can request refund of the loan at face value anytime.
Redeeming bonds may take some time to liquidate positions or procure more BTC if no liquid BTC is available."?  

What recourse is there when the issuer finds himself short of "liquid BTC," thus making the time frame "some time"?
Can the terms of the OP be reduced to "Lend me money & i'll pay you back when it's convenient for me"?
Thanks.

The reasoning would presumably be that by having them 'tradable as stocks' - holders can exit their position (at what under normal conditions would be close to face value) even if the rate of people wishing to exit is slightly higher than available from the borrower.
It wouldn't make sense to take out a loan if at any time the borrower was able to refund the face value of the entire amount... so it should have been obvious to all that at certain lender demand levels it would be unfeasable to pay out immediately.

As it happens of course - the combination of bitfunder closure and people just wishing to redeem due to the rise in BTC value has clearly passed that limit.
This in itself shouldn't be a worry (aside from the now significant haircuts taken by those needing to exit).. but combined with the lack of transparency regarding the borrower's financials, and the fact we don't know to what extent a BTC price-rise puts the borrower at risk of default, it's surely now a worry - providing yet more redemption pressure.

Say what you want about the risk/foolishness of lending money under conditions of such low transparency of the underlying businesses... but the mechanism of lending as a 'share-like' asset seems a reasonable model otherwise. (with of course the usual caveats about legality and recourse when taking a risk on any assets on these unregulated 'exchanges')

Of course it should have been obvious that the borrower would not have the liquidity to pay back the loan at any point in time at face value.  The rub is absolutely nothing in the terms *motivates* the borrower to gain such liquidity.

To be in keeping with the terms, the debt issuer simply invests the borrowed funds in a bet on JustDice.  If he wins, he pocket the profits & bets the original amount again, until he finally loses.  He may also convert all the BTC into USD, and short BTC while staying illiquid.
All the risks are *explicitly* with the lender.

Regarding "lack of transparency" -- that's what defines a "personal loan."  No transparency is offered or should be expected.

You also point out that unforeseen circumstances are responsible for the failure here, but you overlook the fact that, according to OP's terms, *failure is undefined*.  In case i'm not making myself clear, OP has not defaulted on his loan, nor is defaulting possible according to OP's terms.

Every possible venture will succeed under ideal circumstances.  A contract should exhaustively define how each party must act under all possible circumstances, including unfavorable scenarios.  OP explores exotic possibilities (1BTC=1$), but neglects to delineate the essentials.  That's the difference between useful business instruments and random assemblages of words.

[ohyeahok]

please graet.
stop sent interest over bitfunder. it`s can`t withdrawal .
can you pay the interest direct to our Address?

[lunarboy]

please graet.
stop sent interest over bitfunder. it`s can`t withdrawal .
can you pay the interest direct to our Address?

+ 1

would be great to see interest coming directly into our bitfunder public address until the loan is formally moved to a new exchange site. Havelock seems by far the most competent these days.

[Bananery]

please graet.
stop sent interest over bitfunder. it`s can`t withdrawal .
can you pay the interest direct to our Address?

+ 1

would be great to see interest coming directly into our bitfunder public address until the loan is formally moved to a new exchange site. Havelock seems by far the most competent these days.

If Graeme continues to play dividends, then it would probably be best not to send them every day due to transaction fees. All BitFunder bitcoins will be moved to WeExchange, so Graeme, tell us what you're going to do before that. Tell us also if the bonds will be transferable. I hope they will be transferable, because some people might want to sell or buy them.

[julz]

Why were there 3 dividend payments for 2013-11-16 and 2 for 2013-11-17?
It looks like we now have 3 dividends paid in advance.  Anyone know why?

[Bananery]

Why were there 3 dividend payments for 2013-11-16 and 2 for 2013-11-17?
It looks like we now have 3 dividends paid in advance.  Anyone know why?

Edit:
Not sure why.

[bittymitty]

As we are unable to easily withdraw from Weexchange can the dividend be paid directly to the BTC wallet address?

[Progressive]

It would be great if Graet transfered the bonds to the new legal CipherTrade exchange (runned by woodrake, Deprived and others) it could also handle dividends payments nicely.

More about the exchange: https://forum.litecoin.net/index.php/topic,7176.0.html

[lunarboy]

It would be great if Graet transfered the bonds to the new legal CipherTrade exchange (runned by woodrake, Deprived and others) it could also handle dividends payments nicely.

More about the exchange: https://forum.litecoin.net/index.php/topic,7176.0.html

It would be great if it were transferred anywhere instead of the black hole that is bitfunder weexchange.

[Graet]

Why were there 3 dividend payments for 2013-11-16 and 2 for 2013-11-17?
It looks like we now have 3 dividends paid in advance.  Anyone know why?

There was a glitch on the site - didnt reload properly and when I came back to it I clicked the "pay" button again.




Until bitfunder closes and I get all of the information I cannot pay direct to peoples private addresses.

Looking at options to manage graet.loan after bitfunder closes

I have stated earlier in this thread that the goal was to have most of graet.loan repaid by mid 2014 this is still my goal - the changes at bitfunder hurt me too and i'm waiting to be repaid btc from several sources too - not a nice time.

I plan to stick around and honor my commitments
thanks for patience and understanding in these trying times
Graet

[thecoinjournal]

Why were there 3 dividend payments for 2013-11-16 and 2 for 2013-11-17?
It looks like we now have 3 dividends paid in advance.  Anyone know why?

There was a glitch on the site - didnt reload properly and when I came back to it I clicked the "pay" button again.




Until bitfunder closes and I get all of the information I cannot pay direct to peoples private addresses.

Looking at options to manage graet.loan after bitfunder closes

I have stated earlier in this thread that the goal was to have most of graet.loan repaid by mid 2014 this is still my goal - the changes at bitfunder hurt me too and i'm waiting to be repaid btc from several sources too - not a nice time.

I plan to stick around and honor my commitments
thanks for patience and understanding in these trying times
Graet

Honestly, by mid 2014 the Bitcoin price might be much higher. I hope you can be repaid as soon as possible so you can repay graet.loan.

From a holder of not significant shares

[User705]

Can someone explain to me why I keep seeing these old timers borrow in BTC.  That's about as bright as lending at the 0.25% fed funds rate??

[digit]

Graet, please let investors know your plan for the GPT.ESecBTC and GPT.YABMC assets. As you know, Ukyo has given US investors and nonverified investors until October 31 to sell their shares. Investors need, and deserve, to know what you will be doing with this asset so that, if necessary, they can sell their shares while they still can. Your silence on this basic question is causing you to lose credibility among investors. Who is going to want to invest in an asset that you manage in the future if you don't even answer a basic question like this?

Graet will we be having any answers about this?  We have been waiting for your answers since October :\

[Djingis]

Hi there,

i was away some weeks, now i noticed that Bitfunder is shutting down!!

what will happen with my Graet.Loan shares

Greets
Djingis

[bittymitty]

Hi there,

i was away some weeks, now i noticed that Bitfunder is shutting down!!

what will happen with my Graet.Loan shares

Greets
Djingis

The dividends will get paid to bitfunder then disappear into weexchange for an unknown period of time

[bittymitty]

Why were there 3 dividend payments for 2013-11-16 and 2 for 2013-11-17?
It looks like we now have 3 dividends paid in advance.  Anyone know why?

There was a glitch on the site - didnt reload properly and when I came back to it I clicked the "pay" button again.




Until bitfunder closes and I get all of the information I cannot pay direct to peoples private addresses.

Looking at options to manage graet.loan after bitfunder closes

I have stated earlier in this thread that the goal was to have most of graet.loan repaid by mid 2014 this is still my goal - the changes at bitfunder hurt me too and i'm waiting to be repaid btc from several sources too - not a nice time.

I plan to stick around and honor my commitments
thanks for patience and understanding in these trying times
Graet

Dude all of the information is on the public asset list. There is no excuse to not pay directly unless you are working with Ukyo to withhold payments to bond holders.

[Djingis]

Hi there,

i was away some weeks, now i noticed that Bitfunder is shutting down!!

what will happen with my Graet.Loan shares

Greets
Djingis

The dividends will get paid to bitfunder then disappear into weexchange for an unknown period of time

Awesome.. then they stuck like my other BTCs

What about the shares and dividends, will they continue the payment to the public btc address ?

[Graet]

Still looking at options for management after BitFunder closes, self managed still looks best, paying to the addresses listed on BitFunder - though the ability to trade among investors would be restricted.
I have had a couple of other options suggested that I am looking into.

This is the list of redeem requests, I do not yet have investor information, most likely people with requests can see their amount for an idea of place in queue:
Position   BTC Requested   Cumulative total
1            12.87
2            133.57           146.44
3            40                 186.44
4            40                 226.44
5            58.70            285.14
6            20                 305.14
7            70                375.14
8            70                445.14
9            25                470.14
10        163.09         633.23
11        14.56           647.79
12        10.92           658.71
13         189.47          ?*
14           ?                ?
15           ?                ?
16        10.97          669.68
17          ?                ?
18              ?                ?
19         24             693.68
20         31.68        725.36
21         8.58          733.94
22         4.4            738.34
23         11.11        749.45
24         40             789.45
25         2.6            792.05
26         24             816.05
27         17.03        833.08
28         4              837.08



? represents a request made but no amount included
* will update running total when I have time

So almost 50% of graet.loan still in circulation has been requested to redeem, so unless an angel appears and takes over the redeem requests it will take some time to work through that list (though I will be doing my best) remembering the goal was to have most of the loan repaid by mid 2014.

Hope that answers some of the questions
Best wishes
Graeme

 Edited to update list


P.S. I am a customer of BitFunder not a staff member and am unable to help with BitFunder support requests.

[julz]

...so unless an angel appears and takes over the redeem requests...

Are you able to provide any further information about your BTC assets/earning capacity which might encourage such angels?
In particular - to what extent is your ability to repay the loan affected by further rises in the BTC exchange rate?

[Graet]

...so unless an angel appears and takes over the redeem requests...

Are you able to provide any further information about your BTC assets/earning capacity which might encourage such angels?
In particular - to what extent is your ability to repay the loan affected by further rises in the BTC exchange rate?

yes, but it would be confidential.
my btc businesses earn in Bitcoin, exchange rate does not influence this

[SteveB]

This is the list of redeem requests, I do not yet have investor information, most likely people with requests can see their amount for an idea of place in queue:
Position   BTC Requested   Cumulative total
1            12.87
2            133.57           146.44
3            40                 186.44
4            40                 226.44
5            58.70            285.14
6            ?                  ?
7            70                355.14
8            70                425.14
9            25                450.14
10        163.09         613.23
11        14.56           627.79
12        10.92           638.71
13           ?                 ?
14           ?                ?
15           ?                ?
16        10.97          649.68
17          ?                ?
18              ?                ?
19         24             673.68
20         31.68        705.36
21         8.58          713.94
22         4.4            718.34
23         11.11        729.45
24         40             769.45
25         2.6            772.05
26         24             796.05
27         17.03        813.08
28         4              817.08

I don't see my redeem request on your list for 20 btc.
I sent it to your email address (graet@ozco.in) on October 23 and again by PM on October 26.

I sold 1500 shares before bitfunder closed, but I have 500 shares left that I would still like to redeem.

[Evolyn]

Even if these news are bad news for someone this news are good news.

I like if ppl just tell whats going on. Less fud from trolls and no more reason to freak out. Lack of communication has become a big problem in alot of other projects.

Thanks for the nice update, Graet.

[Djingis]

Thanks for the nice update, Graet.

agreed!


Hi,

redeem?! means to sell my shares at the stock value ?
Thats what i would like to .. iam total confused cause Btifunder shut down

Greets
Djingis

[ru0chen]

Thanks for the nice update too, Graet. In this time, your frequency of communication is very important.
I have 18,947 shares and my publickey is 123bTje31Ljb4egbWnLjcBFxkme6A3db7R . I wish you can still pay the interest in future, and push my redeem in queue. I wish you can redeem it as soon as possible.

[Graet]

edited list for  SteveB and ru0chen

[thirdlight]

Redeem list with updated cumulative:

Code:

1	12.87	12.87
2	133.57	146.44
3	40	186.44
4	40	226.44
5	58.7	285.14
6	20	305.14
7	70	375.14
8	70	445.14
9	25	470.14
10	163.09	633.23
11	14.56	647.79
12	10.92	658.71
13	189.47	848.18
14	?	848.18
15	?	848.18
16	10.97	859.15
17	?	859.15
18	?	859.15
19	24	883.15
20	31	914.15
21	8.58	922.73
22	4.4	927.13
23	11.11	938.24
24	40	978.24
25	2.6	980.84
26	24	1004.84
27	17.03	1021.87
28	4	1025.87

Comparing with the public list, only 4 balances match redeem requests. If ru0chen (position 6) is typical,  this list shows balances at time of redeem request, but shares have subsequently been sold. ru0chen is listed as requesting 2000 shares redeemed, but only holds 500.

I sold 1500 shares before bitfunder closed, but I have 500 shares left that I would still like to redeem.

Also, some may no longer feel the need to redeem immediately, if they feel there is a credible forward plan.
Graet, your position may not be so extreme. Might be worth contacting your "investors" for an up to date sit rep.

Thanks,

[digit]

Graet what about GPT.ESecBTC and GPT.YABMC assets?   

In case you were not aware ESECURITYSABTC on BTC-TC has already been migrated to Crypto-trade nearly a month ago and dividends have already been paid for October. If you not planning to continue the pass through, could you transfer the shares to the individual holders who have accounts there?

[A Meteorite]

I, too, am not in this public list. I PM'd a request on October 9 to redeem 33 shares.

[Djingis]

Will Graet continue the dividends to public address or will he close the whole Great.Loan asset ? 

[lunarboy]

Fantastic to seem some information here at last.    Thanks Graet.

I for one will consider holding on if an acceptable forward plan is set in motion.

Dividends direct to our public addresses would be a start, and a great show of confidence, perhaps with a plan to list on an exchange in the future or at least some way we can trade if needs be.

Information is the key to confidence at the moment. I would imagine at least some of your list above would also not be in such a rush t cash out if a serious plan was put in place.

Again thanks for the update Graet.

[MikkisJ]

Comparing with the public list, only 4 balances match redeem requests. If ru0chen (position 6) is typical,  this list shows balances at time of redeem request, but shares have subsequently been sold. ru0chen is listed as requesting 2000 shares redeemed, but only holds 500.

I am on the list, and the requested amount is different from what I have now. I also sold some shares after the request, but not much. I still want to redeem all of the shares I own. The shares I sold were below face value, so the buyer hopes to gain a little bit extra in addition to the dividends.

I believe that there will be more redeem requests, especially if btc continues to go up in price.

I'm fine with direct shares, and I don't need dividends every day. Once per month would be totally OK for me. That way Graet won't have to send dividends to 100 or so addresses daily.

Trading can also be implemented with direct shares. Maybe with PMs between buyer and seller, then directly through Graet, in that case he can charge a fee (for example 0.5% or 1%). And yes, that would be totally OK, since BitFunder charged 1% too. So if you decide to make shares tradable, Graet, it is completely justified to charge a fee.

[thy]

Still looking at options for management after BitFunder closes, self managed still looks best, paying to the addresses listed on BitFunder - though the ability to trade among investors would be restricted.
I have had a couple of other options suggested that I am looking into.

This is the list of redeem requests, I do not yet have investor information, most likely people with requests can see their amount for an idea of place in queue:
Position   BTC Requested   Cumulative total
1            12.87
2            133.57           146.44
3            40                 186.44
4            40                 226.44
5            58.70            285.14
6            20                 305.14
7            70                375.14
8            70                445.14
9            25                470.14
10        163.09         633.23
11        14.56           647.79
12        10.92           658.71
13         189.47          ?*
14           ?                ?
15           ?                ?
16        10.97          669.68
17          ?                ?
18              ?                ?
19         24             693.68
20         31.68        725.36
21         8.58          733.94
22         4.4            738.34
23         11.11        749.45
24         40             789.45
25         2.6            792.05
26         24             816.05
27         17.03        833.08
28         4              837.08



? represents a request made but no amount included
* will update running total when I have time

So almost 50% of graet.loan still in circulation has been requested to redeem, so unless an angel appears and takes over the redeem requests it will take some time to work through that list (though I will be doing my best) remembering the goal was to have most of the loan repaid by mid 2014.

Hope that answers some of the questions
Best wishes
Graeme

 Edited to update list


P.S. I am a customer of BitFunder not a staff member and am unable to help with BitFunder support requests.

My redeem request is missing in the list to:
5450 shares 54.50 btc, forum timestamp for the PM i sent to you Graet here at bitcointalk October 12, 2013, 05:46:52 AM

[ohyeahok]

hello graet,
i have 1099 shares on bitfunder.
Bitfunder Public Bitcoin Address:1NBc1PuaXG3p1hTk4vADT31SXGydHHievi

[kslavik]

Please Add me to Redeem queue as well:

[Bananery]

Graet, can you stop paying to BitFunder? Just take the asset list from BitFunder and declare that all the shares are direct and any transfers inside of BitFunder will be invalid from that moment on.

Transfers then could be made through you if people decide to trade your bonds. Dividends then will be paid once a month or so. There are a bit over 100 holders, if there are going to be trades, you can manage that on your own. There is no need for listing the asset on any exchange. In that case traders will pay fees for tradidng, and I believe there is listing fee to?

[SOSLOVE868]

Great , do you know UKYO and are You the director of Weex?  can you tell us what happen there for stop spreading FUD... Thanks

[ohyeahok]

Graet, can you stop paying to BitFunder? Just take the asset list from BitFunder and declare that all the shares are direct and any transfers inside of BitFunder will be invalid from that moment on.

Transfers then could be made through you if people decide to trade your bonds. Dividends then will be paid once a month or so. There are a bit over 100 holders, if there are going to be trades, you can manage that on your own. There is no need for listing the asset on any exchange. In that case traders will pay fees for tradidng, and I believe there is listing fee to?

+1

[digit]

Graet what about GPT.ESecBTC and GPT.YABMC assets?   

In case you were not aware ESECURITYSABTC on BTC-TC has already been migrated to Crypto-trade nearly a month ago and dividends have already been paid for October. If you not planning to continue the pass through, could you transfer the shares to the individual holders who have accounts there?

Can you give an answer about this please?   These are also assets you created on Bitfunder besides the loan, there have been no updates about them from you yet.   

[thy]

Great , do you know UKYO and are You the director of Weex?  can you tell us what happen there for stop spreading FUD... Thanks

It sais right on the first page of this thread that he's the Australian Director of WeExchange so of cource he knows Ukyo.

....

References:
http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=Graet
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=108716.0
Owns and runs Ozcoin Pooled Mining Pty Ltd and CrownCloud.net
Australian Director WeExchange Australia Pty Ltd

....

[SOSLOVE868]

Great , do you know UKYO and are You the director of Weex?  can you tell us what happen there for stop spreading FUD... Thanks

It sais right on the first page of this thread that he's the Australian Director of WeExchange so of cource he knows Ukyo.

....

References:
http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=Graet
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=108716.0
Owns and runs Ozcoin Pooled Mining Pty Ltd and CrownCloud.net
Australian Director WeExchange Australia Pty Ltd

....

Its great, so Great should be give us some explanations about what happening with his great company ....

[Bananery]

Graet, stop paying fucking dividends into fucking BitFunder. The funds at BitFunder are most likely either frozen on seized, shit hit the fan, Ukyo himself said it.

If we won't get the dividends that you paid while it was a known fact that WeExchange had withdrawal problems, you will pay all those dividends for the second time, that time for real.

[bittymitty]

Graet, stop paying fucking dividends into fucking BitFunder. The funds at BitFunder are most likely either frozen on seized, shit hit the fan, Ukyo himself said it.

If we won't get the dividends that you paid while it was a known fact that WeExchange had withdrawal problems, you will pay all those dividends for the second time, that time for real.

There is no BTC its a fraud....

[Djingis]

Anyone got news about the loan ?

Is it possible to pay out ? or get the future dividends to the public adress ?

[Bananery]

Anyone got news about the loan ?

Is it possible to pay out ? or get the future dividends to the public adress ?

Do you ever read older messages from the thread or just ask whatever you want right away?

[Djingis]

Anyone got news about the loan ?

Is it possible to pay out ? or get the future dividends to the public adress ?

Do you ever read older messages from the thread or just ask whatever you want right away?

he's still paying dividends on bitfunder account , wrote him a message 1 week ago .. no answer

but yea i read older messages but there arent any news right now about the dividends ?!

[tolan77]

In case this still gets resolved, I am not on the redeem list. I sent my request for 2085 bonds October 10th via email with a reply on October 15th and have heard nothing since. Public bitfunder address 1nFe55ncihZfYXMH1dPBpSzkuqy9gJSmL

Edited
Also sent PM with PGP proof on October 9th.

[thirdlight]

Here is the current public asset list:

Code:

13NbNBhTtUeuCTFXE6XfqkZ57kbrsMEMmp	27575
1D9z1WJhoZ9TrpALLgWnXH6qkNkyDSMM7b	25860
123bTje31Ljb4egbWnLjcBFxkme6A3db7R	18947
1btci44qRvsLtahoyqEfJXXKzhQAFT7Gp	16302
1AZDW4Sp8FMbUM7fZV1RDZf2ZBgc2LSg4U	13357
12sSovogPEPn6SwmTU5omVzpvKNPw9TUdY	9879
161fR8rAY7sjSNTCSEZBaHci7SWAPEGEKb	8747
1FQLUf2cnS5gbEyxhbxEVkURVJ76DJHFej	7855
1JgrxkAbiCUnhY7jYJ5Vkiisx4DynNxCD9	7481
15x6dVyAJSXeH897dJ3cgF7Wf7CekeZmgj	6998
1GYZyoeZFBbvY9dak4PVBa5MNNuVNRVLw	5866
1N2P7f3B1qNm3h6mtFU2CeE6FXGG4fNCnS	5450
1AbyfrvNyoEkyT993aPz3x4zajeXp188Wj	4350
1Ge1N1XmL6jF89S9UULToyecYy46kf7fhV	4100
1G4gDC56KPeEXi7CmRZ2yaAD5utnM35No4	4000
1AzThCepg5Pf9pJQHMBkH6JpR75xRCb4pT	3168
16WXJw9ab2zG4okSqicDKeQ1vFJVPJ1Jkd	2500
1LCN6NyhTcNXpsmY1Lk7meQpQzU4yrGKY1	2400
1nFe55ncihZfYXMH1dPBpSzkuqy9gJSmL	2085
1DviF5vwPD2Hvn589uXgB8H4Jh5sGZZbs6	1703
196twf3AbUNqGVd2dj9AUP5Fb6KY9kLkit	1500
1KBQi3tgvn5XoSvL8pTi2mGwyodyMqCKss	1456
1BNohMcNtuDtekiN3kpE52Ei5YXN5tViLH	1373
1Xdc9KwMw6FFWScwZmBK4hUT8fHQGQG6F	1278
18AejeE1Bj8ZfxFXib67FbDnyQMeg4YCaV	1111
1NBc1PuaXG3p1hTk4vADT31SXGydHHievi	1099
1LphUPVWMhKaVH7eWUtKQxwxrrBmd8wdAV	1092
1HpVUGyw4kdktDMrrPzMLaX1nLm7ZRdff8	1014
15Ac2gmor6VAQg7y5LhE9cyKZxndcyeiJY	1000
1DZgn5tqasTm99hMe5oKpDmTKjbKmUqAnJ	1000
1Mi3A5ADgoX8zRxRihY9m8xDpAU8WBxqcG	999
1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq	979
1NRi3MXPoPJujKSdknoZPFNewsWp7qnHs	780
13LA5mL45ANAcvBZvCVBHEtgpNVBc8RaZF	766
1GwVpRYhX1Vb7vbAjPyVDmLXaPu7PVfJgo	758
1LDMoq6G8SA1EGTfaDPGJusDBvzyc7y4Dj	600
1Q1qUfAZTBo6KvWBGXnmqkcsHJXmqjuh12	500
1CgnF6z4hvSnDUm1ATpZb1YFWJKZBBMF7e	500
14GMyJV3g8yqm51oRzYfirE1Jg5qMqkLjz	440
1K681W8p3f93jk4Lkm4txijfctfUttgRG6	400
1NnFPNpjF9a4MoCvdUtmTmfyu4AFyhbyAs	290
1L4nxiYvuS4tbP9n1gi28J9iUSt22asQYf	260
1PbdJuKZXcV8oTGSbGGME1mXtacbGC67mk	259
188ZGGV3texLSZ8ZJ9ZLL6bmvoNEVWJBkq	204
17LczfYPbxGW7Cw7osAmqwWFVDELe19o6m	200
1PAA9WHBJ221eMgRrNHiRrbBiwNw8TwQTe	200
1Dx8J2JCkYvtzxZ1XQhfif5pSE4buSPQ7V	150
1EHWWPsqdsGeuB5XBx2daAhFUf3KVMfws2	123
1DsUJ6A8URhYaFcxXvx3rjfB56bpQYDEvr	122
1Lj4MXfZNuLPE3dtiat6Sb32uFf8oxEjN2	100
1FV1dzKhyCzpZZpiaD9rsLkH8qkrmckRU9	86
168cHcVM8BNbSaFDRdUemeZmgaNmb2dUBu	85
17UGzsFnZUjwsSkHn5VvWjgjeHHZE4NBzW	85
1Gt8kUVLW9g3m9kg8FoMm7uZ4wjT86kMG	75
1LszQwcpyVsHAGaEu3KaTaTo6hp1VgqBCF	70
19dPnrZXtLqaiihmYXQqFYn7Y1fndZiLF6	53
17u2Vdq3oUbfKpZmebj6gMHZpKQ9PdbLbf	50
1N9SW1UqrC4GUDLbLenaznE3LkU3javL1r	40
1HaKNzqBXA44tV7k7TZRaAuHTfPb6LaXf8	38
1MdPwq8tdu4a3kYjtoBvTGdCUpP1qjpXGo	35
14xGDtokDwywo1NUaoi7xBr2X4qQm7t7LQ	33
13wswHPAcKBivtV28jEW7jm7AZjNFsVPAr	30
1CKceVD5diJJe4aJPmk6dCc9HwNjB23Mza	23
1HGAE4YdwASijNkSFQpvTt4UoyS6GngJQC	20
1B9FuVRbJQBm1RDkrVzQnHbGi6MFmDCh9u	15
1KXuL99qRhsQDsLL8QweXkxAWkuSpxczut	15
1E2KSF1vf5dqVwiaefo5eWPEz12tmg8NPt	12
1FbyPbKCkzdU1rPQu5hy2U9ARFxxfCn1cn	11
none					10
19Ei3TRu6xQRyKfvXC9b4ibGy3fUTPwj5Y	10
19Ei3TRu6xQRyKfvXC9b4ibGy3fUTPwj5Y	6
1SYxZQrhGwFCAY6hFNWMJtiZiHthF32rw	5
1FJTUC8iG36izauKLhVvAHFvGqKbF7EijQ	4
1Lyp4Ay8xJWEdEtbNntVKjj8BbH6ALs9a9	3
1Kn78fvoyQeifShQkukVqm11jFV7UYurZE	3
1PBN7yhi6JLEa6VV31npGLV2ehrepoYdyR	2
1EmrbLDymA6WKHBZfXeA2sXFvp2FrHDmwe	2
1GVgT76JC4Gy48dPFESntQ49u9Z1G39T6v	1
1KrxecCGj1PD458Lfd8xx54KmQm77tXzVA	1
19MSCX2fcRQUBsGAL1eitBejMXpf7ZpMbU	1

Worth noting that one account has 10 shares, but no public address.
Also, there are still changes being made to public addresses - not many, but some.

Thanks,

[thirdlight]

Quoting for reference:

Loan to Graet (Graeme Tee)
https://bitfunder.com/asset/Graet.Loan

References:
http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=Graet
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=108716.0
Owns and runs Ozcoin Pooled Mining Pty Ltd and CrownCloud.net
Australian Director WeExchange Australia Pty Ltd

Interest:
- Shares shall pay an interest of 0.05% daily.

Shares value:
- A maximum of 200,000 shares will be issued
- Shares have a face value of 0.01 BTC
- Shares retain a minimum of $0.1 USD value each.

Should any event make Bitcoins become valued at less than $1 USD per Bitcoin or impossible to be transacted, you may request to redeem your shares for $0.1 USD instead.

Redeeming Shares:
- Shares can be redeemed at face value anytime upon request.
- Redeeming shares may take some time to liquidate positions or procure more BTC.

Description:
This loan is to hold and/or use BTC for on-demand needs for my projects, such as OzCoin, CrownCloud, etc.
This loan is not tied to the success or failure of any business.
This loan should not be defaulted on unless personal bankruptcy is officially declared.
Consider it a personal loan.

You can request refund of the loan at face value anytime.
Redeeming bonds may take some time to liquidate positions or procure more BTC if no liquid BTC is available.

[TurdHurdur]

A 0.000035 dividend is nice and all, but how about you send it to the assets list addresses instead of the black hole that is weex?

[Djingis]

A 0.000035 dividend is nice and all, but how about you send it to the assets list addresses instead of the black hole that is weex?

nobody knows ..

anyone got his redeem request proceeded ?

seems like graet is really busy ?!

[ohyeahok]

There is no news?

[lunarboy]

So seems like the dividends are no longer being sent to Bitfunder... and they don't seem to be being forwarded to Weexchange.

Graet: We could all use an update here. Doesn't have to be much but a provisional plan would be nice.

Thanks

edit: just noticed the last dividend sent to bitfunder (30th nov) was for 7 days at once..   no idea what that 'means' though.

[Bananery]

So seems like the dividends are no longer being sent to Bitfunder... and they don't seem to be being forwarded to Weexchange.

Graet: We could all use an update here. Doesn't have to be much but a provisional plan would be nice.

Thanks

He paid 7 BTC on the last day of November, so it means we're covered until December 8th. I hope Graeme can give an update tomorrow, but looking at how slow his communication has been so far, I'm not expecting anything for several weeks.

Next time he pays dividends, it will probably cover at least a week or maybe even a month. Paying every day isn't for best, because the transation fees will take a lot from the dividends. I'm quite alright with weekly or monthly dividends.

[lunarboy]

Next time he pays dividends, it will probably cover at least a week or maybe even a month. Paying every day isn't for best, because the translation fees will take a lot from the dividends. I'm quite alright with weekly or monthly dividends.

Weekly makes a lot of sense now the tx fee is so high, i'd be reluctant to switch to monthly unless there was an official method to trade shares and a new published business plan.

[digit]

Graet what about GPT.ESecBTC and GPT.YABMC assets?  

In case you were not aware ESECURITYSABTC on BTC-TC has already been migrated to Crypto-trade nearly a month ago and dividends have already been paid for October. If you not planning to continue the pass through, could you transfer the shares to the individual holders who have accounts there?

November dividends about to paid out soon.  Can you give some answers please?

[julz]

I don't understand why dividends are (were?) being paid via a system which Graet would know (as a director of weexchange) has lost coins.

If those of us with funds trapped at weexchange don't end up receiving the full amount - it seems unreasonable for him to have paid into a system which will not return 100%.

I applaud the efforts to resolve the situation via a deal with Neo & Bee, but if there is any doubt that the full dividends paid into bitfunder/weexchange will reach the shareholders, then such dividends should have been with-held until direct payment was practical.

There is no circumstance under which it is reasonable to put yet more user funds into a system which is not going to pay out 100%.  
Adding such funds after the event, means that the average haircut would be less - but it is not legitimate to add more *users* funds to some loss-sharing pool.

I can only hope that this means Graet has complete confidence in the upcoming arrangements and has good reason to believe everyone will ultimately be paid.

[Bananery]

I don't understand why dividends are (were?) being paid via a system which Graet would know (as a director of weexchange) has lost coins.

Because he himself had funds in the broken system that he can't withdraw. By paying them inside of the broken system he makes them available to him, because he can say he paid them, it's not his fault the system broke.

So if WeExchange doesn't pay out, he effectively converted his frozen funds into real one.

[gangplank]

I think it's just to cover his ass so that when this ship sinks and people chase him, he'll be able to say he continued to pay divs via bitfunder as per the agreement and that if you have any problems, you need to take it up with them, not him.

[julz]

I think it's just to cover his ass so that when this ship sinks and people chase him, he'll be able to say he continued to pay divs via bitfunder as per the agreement and that if you have any problems, you need to take it up with them, not him.

*If* it comes to lawyering up - there are people in the same legal jurisdiction as Graet (Australia) with enough at stake and deep enough pockets to take this on.
Graeme Tee described it as a 'personal loan' - and said in effect that failure to pay would only happen as a result of bankruptcy.
Considering Graet is a director of Weexchange - there is a good case to be made that 'payment' via a system he should reasonably know is compromised/insolvent does not represent a valid resolution of those portions of the debt.
It would be sad to see lawyers involved, and I wouldn't wish bankruptcy on him - but when there are individuals owed hundreds of thousands of AUD equivalent value - I expect a failure to ultimately pay out will result in just that.

Of course - the question is whether bankruptcy has already been reached and whether there are any personal assets to even chase. Given that Bitcoin provides a pretty good way to hide assets, and the legal situation around Bitcoin and 'personal loans' via an unregulated exchange system is unclear at best - it would be a risky case.. but I know of at least one Bitcoiner who is tempted to risk 'throwing good money after bad'  - simply to help establish some legal precedence here in Australia regarding this - and send a message that BTC debts will be chased up whether due to negligence, mismanagement or fraud.

If it turns out that that negligence/mismanagement/fraud don't directly apply to Graeme Tee's actions - I still think it's a plausible outcome to have the judgement made against Graeme Tee's assets - leaving his recourse to chase his losses against the other parties involved.

[tolan77]

Is there an IRC channel Graet frequents? He historically hasn't replied or checked on threads/pms here much. Was considering hopping in an irc channel and priv chatting him. Haven't received a reply since his last email in October.

[Djingis]

Is there an IRC channel Graet frequents? He historically hasn't replied or checked on threads/pms here much. Was considering hopping in an irc channel and priv chatting him. Haven't received a reply since his last email in October.

Seen him and Ukyo in the IRC channel #bitfunder , but u must be very very lucky if they answer any question ! -.-
So , they arent any official news about the Graet.Loan? He's running around / away like ukyo with our BTC ?
I'am really angry like all others in the same situation 

[SOSLOVE868]

Is there an IRC channel Graet frequents? He historically hasn't replied or checked on threads/pms here much. Was considering hopping in an irc channel and priv chatting him. Haven't received a reply since his last email in October.

Seen him and Ukyo in the IRC channel #bitfunder , but u must be very very lucky if they answer any question ! -.-
So , they arent any official news about the Graet.Loan? He's running around / away like ukyo with our BTC ?
I'am really angry like all others in the same situation 

Go for a lawyer ,I think for UKYO and Great at their ages,running isn't a proper things to do....because both of them have families, and I guess they should have other personal assets apart from BTC itself, house or car?

[TurdHurdur]

...
Until bitfunder closes and I get all of the information I cannot pay direct to peoples private addresses.

Looking at options to manage graet.loan after bitfunder closes

I have stated earlier in this thread that the goal was to have most of graet.loan repaid by mid 2014 this is still my goal - the changes at bitfunder hurt me too and i'm waiting to be repaid btc from several sources too - not a nice time.

I plan to stick around and honor my commitments
thanks for patience and understanding in these trying times
Graet

Now that bitfunder is closed, can you start sending the dividends to the private addresses?

[ru0chen]

where is my dividends now?

[thy]

So what's the latest updates on this loan from Graet now ?

[Bananery]

So what's the latest updates on this loan from Graet now ?

No updates. Looking at past and how rarely he gives updates, it will probably take another month for him to start paying dividends directly and give us an update.

[thecoinjournal]

Any updates?

[gangplank]

He has not logged in for almost a month. It's obvious your money is of little concern to him (now that he has it).

[Evolyn]

Honestly, i'm getting very bored about this kind of communication. Even fucking BFL is doing a better job, at least they tell every two weaks they'll ship in two weeks. Just disappearing is the most annoying thing someone can do. Usually i'm very patient but even my patience has a deadline.

[Keven]

Honestly, i'm getting very bored about this kind of communication. Even fucking BFL is doing a better job, at least they tell every two weaks they'll ship in two weeks. Just disappearing is the most annoying thing someone can do. Usually i'm very patient but even my patience has a deadline.

+1

[ru0chen]

any updates?

[BitHub]

i'm talking to him in #bitcoin-aus room. Asking/pleading with him to give an update. Hope he does. I'm worried for him.

[BitHub]

about 20mins ago.

03:59 < VanCleef> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=218324.0
03:59 < VanCleef> people are waiting
04:00 <@Graet> yep, and i'm waiting on peopke


only update so far.

[MilkyLep]

Sounds like a tactic to get you off his back for the time being. No offense.

Abandoning this thread isn't the responsible thing to do. His little one line jab on IRC could just as easily be written here himself.

[Bananery]

He's is waiting for other people who owe him. That means he lied in his contract.

[pheaonix]

He's is waiting for other people who owe him. That means he lied in his contract.

yerp, i got pretty screwed because of the lies. thanks again graet.

[BitHub]

i'm surprised he didn't come here and give an update, he would rather argue with me for 30minutes in #bitcoin-aus than just give an update on here.

I told him about 5 times yesterday to come here and give an update.

[Bananery]

i'm surprised he didn't come here and give an update, he would rather argue with me for 30minutes in #bitcoin-aus than just give an update on here.

I told him about 5 times yesterday to come here and give an update.

He lied in his contract and is ashamed of that. So he prefers silence. I think he will give an update only when he has the money to pay both dividends and redeems. Which will be summer 2014, if we're lucky.

[Bananery]

Graet is an honorable man.

No, an honorable man wouldn't lie in his contract.

Graet lost his sources of BTC revenue

If he didn't lie in his contract where he said this loan is not tied to the success or failure of any business, then he would be an honorable man.

Back in October when the BTC exchange rate was a bit over 200USD, I wrote this.

So, stop paying dividends, sell as much as you can what you own, I don't care what you, just redeem as much as possible as fast as possible. I'm prepared for no dividends and less than face value rather than dragging this into 2016, when we'll lose almost 100% of our investments.

I was totally right, every second counted. But he was spending his time on holidays, no worries. At the same time he says, his portfolio lost most of its value. No honorable man with so much of other people's money, 2000BTC, would let that happen.

An honorable man wouldn't hold any extremely speculative, risky, overvalued bitcoin assets if he had other people's coins.

An honorable man wouldn't issue this kind of loan without 100% BTC collateral in the first place.

[Bananery]

The events that followed which ere not under his control have surely put him in that financial state.

This is not true. His portfolio of BTC securities was valued at around 1k in bitcoin in July. His physical assets were valued at more than a hundred thousands of dollars. His BTC income was over 30BTC a month.

The only reasonable thing for an honorable man to do at that moment would be to sell as much as was needed to redeem all 2000BTC. He could have redeemed all his bonds at that time. Instead he gambled with our bitcoins by keeping his extemely speculative bitcoin securities believing those securities would go up even higher.

I know it was stupid to lend in BTC, so I learned my lesson. Others who have these bonds probably learned it too. You don't have to tell us that.

The fact that Graeme lied in his contract is true. His behaviour and actions show how irresponsible he is towards his debtors. I always paid my debts the first chance I got, that's the only honorable thing to do. He had a chance to redeem 100% of BTC in the summer, he didn't do that.

Graet is not honorable or responsible.

[Graet]

Dear graet.loan holders,
Firstly I would like to apologise for my lack of communication - I have found this to be a very trying time.

Despite the ongoing FUD campaign I have not "run off", do not have health issues and have not "cashed out all the BTC", I am still working toward the goal of having most of graet.loan paid off by mid 2014 including any owed interest.

graet.loan was started to consolidate loans from community members after Ozcoin was hacked, give an easy management platform and provide some liquidity for my Bitcoin businesses. This was working well until changes at BitFunder were announced 2 hours after I left for a family holiday (my wifes first holiday in 5 years) by the time I got home 5 days later my portfolio had lost over 500BTC value and I had a list of redeem requests.

Current situation:
Ozcoin Bitcoin Pool has gone from over 10% of the network to under 0.05% over the last few months due to various and ongoing attacks that have disrupted operation and scared off miners - we need to build it back to at least 5% of the network.
Invested in a startup before Bitfunder issues, currently finishing legals moving to beta after New Year.
CrownCloud continues to bring a growing profit every month, planning to expand operations after New Year.
violence will not get coins,
litigation forcing me into bankruptcy will result in a minimal return for unsecured investors,
being patient and allowing me to continue and grow my Bitcoin businesses while still aiming to return the bulk of great.loan by mid 2014 will give investors the best return.

Best Wishes
Graet

[szmarco]

Mid 2014, OK for me.

[lunarboy]

Thanks for checking in Graet, this will hopefully stem the constant flow of FUD. 

any news on the moving the interest payments direct to loan registered addresses? It would be fantastic to see something coming in even if you decide to switch to weekly payouts.

[joris]

Thanks for the update, much appreciated, and keep an eye on yourself.

Let the new year fireworks chase the bad luck spirits of 2013 away.

[DoloresMaze]

Dear graet.loan holders,
...
Best Wishes
Graet

Where do I send my money to invest in this loan?  I'm 12 and this looks really good.

[TurdHurdur]

Yeah, mid 2014 with interest is fine. Some people just like seeing you're alive here. Have a good new year.

[ru0chen]

Thanks for you reply, and I want to know how would you deal with the interest of graet.loan?

[Bananery]

Graeme is irresponsible, very bad decision making person. He basicly gambled away our bitcoins by buying super risky BTC securities. The fact is that he could have redeemed all 2000BTC in July and none of this would have happened. He is not denying it because it's true.

Even in October he had a chance to repay most of the debt by doing exactly what I requested. Sell everything he had and buy bitcoins. At that moment it still was 200 dollars for one bitcoin. He would have got over 1000BTC easily by selling all his physical assets and his FIAT businesses and probably around 500BTC by selling his BTC securities in October.

Even as late as the end of October he could have saved his face, paid most of the debt and probably still managed to keep his BTC business Ozcoin. On 23rd of October I wrote what he had to do. If it was up to me, that's what I would have done. Too bad he didn't listen.

I think Graeme is still extremely incompetent, irresponsible person, he never learns. Because he still makes the worst decisions. He keeps investing our BTC into FIAT businesses. The worst and most stupid thing to do is to take bitcoins you owe, convert them into FIAT and invest into a FIAT business. No FIAT business can ever provide returns that simply keeping bitcoin gives. For 2013 the return is around 7,000%. For 2014 it's very possible it'll be again over 1,000%.

How exactly are you coming up with summer 2014 Graeme? What is the exchange rate you use in your calculations Graeme? Are you making assumptions that it will stay at 1000USD per bitcoin until the mid of 2014? Like every time you give us estimations, you assume the best outcome for you? I asked this before and I ask this again, what if it will be significantly higher?

It looks like Graeme already fucked so big it's too late to expect full redemptions and dividends. Do you understand that if I would have forced you into bankruptcy in October it would have turned out better for everyone, including you Grame? Do you understand Graeme that unless a miracle happens you will be forced into bankruptcy? Do you understand that the sooner you'll go bankrupt the more you pay out to your debtors because of the ever increasing price of BTC?

Another thing Graeme always lied about is his BTC businesses. He never had businesses, there was just one, ozcoin. Every single other business of his is FIAT.

So think good what you're going to do Graeme. The sooner you start redeeming the bonds the better for you and everyone else. Forget about dividends. If a miracle happens you'll pay dividends later after redeeming.

Just buy back as much as you can as fast you can. I mean that literally, every second counts. That's what I said to you in October. That's what I say to you now.

[thecoinjournal]

Thanks for you reply, and I want to know how would you deal with the interest of graet.loan?

Will there be a portal?

[ru0chen]

Who can tell me where is our interest of Great.loan? It seems no bonuses for two months!

[Djingis]

Who can tell me where is our interest of Great.loan? It seems no bonuses for two months!

Everyone is asking for it 

Dear graet.loan holders,
Firstly I would like to apologise for my lack of communication - I have found this to be a very trying time.

Despite the ongoing FUD campaign I have not "run off", do not have health issues and have not "cashed out all the BTC", I am still working toward the goal of having most of graet.loan paid off by mid 2014 including any owed interest.

graet.loan was started to consolidate loans from community members after Ozcoin was hacked, give an easy management platform and provide some liquidity for my Bitcoin businesses. This was working well until changes at BitFunder were announced 2 hours after I left for a family holiday (my wifes first holiday in 5 years) by the time I got home 5 days later my portfolio had lost over 500BTC value and I had a list of redeem requests.

Current situation:
Ozcoin Bitcoin Pool has gone from over 10% of the network to under 0.05% over the last few months due to various and ongoing attacks that have disrupted operation and scared off miners - we need to build it back to at least 5% of the network.
Invested in a startup before Bitfunder issues, currently finishing legals moving to beta after New Year.
CrownCloud continues to bring a growing profit every month, planning to expand operations after New Year.
violence will not get coins,
litigation forcing me into bankruptcy will result in a minimal return for unsecured investors,
being patient and allowing me to continue and grow my Bitcoin businesses while still aiming to return the bulk of great.loan by mid 2014 will give investors the best return.

Best Wishes
Graet

still the latest news .. 

[Danglebee]

I believed mr Graet run pool and many site among community? Reality he owe all user bitcoin ?

[ru0chen]

Where is my interest? It disappear  for more than two months.

[BitHub]

i cant see graet paying back 2 million dollars plus interest. Can you? Time to take action he's part of the whole ukyo/weex/bitfunder scam too.

[Evolyn]

i'm very patient, but even my patience is not infinite. his last post is more than 40 days ago... it's not the first time he didn't talk to us for more than 30 days. if he cares so less about us not even giving a update once a month, why should we care about him not ruining his life with a lawsuit? this may sound mad, but honestly, he acts as just one of the whole scammers around here why not treat him like that?

i dont know how to start a lawsuit against him nor i own that much shares that it makes sense to throw alot of money to a lawyer. if someone else who knows how to handle this starts a lawsuit or legal investigations i would like to join and support with a few bucks if needed just to watch his scammerass burn.

[thy]

Lets hope Graet &/or Ukyo were the one with the buy order down at 102 usd per BTC on BTC-E yesterday so they got a shitload of very cheep coins so they both can start to resolve this Ukyo loan/Graet loan/Weexchange thing soon.

[BitHub]

"i dont know how to start a lawsuit against him nor i own that much shares that it makes sense to throw alot of money to a lawyer. if someone else who knows how to handle this starts a lawsuit or legal investigations i would like to join and support with a few bucks if needed just to watch his scammerass burn."

I would start here.

http://www.business-standard.com/article/news-ani/australian-legal-firm-accepts-bitcoin-as-valid-currency-114020300227_1.html


or go to his house in perth Australia with a camera and start protesting.

[Bananery]

Graet hasn't still replied why he calls his FIAT business a BTC business. The fact that the business accepts bitcoins doesn't make it bitcoin business.

If you have a hotel that accepts bitcoins, it's still a hotel business. VPN and server business Graet has is an IT business, not a BTC business. So stop repeating that bullshit Graet. Your Crowncloud business is worth X BTC now, it will be worth 20% of X when bitcoin is goes to 3,000 dollars, which will probably happen quite soon. Then you'll go bunkrupt for sure Graet.

Right now Graet should buy bitcoins because the exchange rate is down. Somehow I think Graet still doesn't get it, or he intends to screw his creditors.

[ru0chen]

"i dont know how to start a lawsuit against him nor i own that much shares that it makes sense to throw alot of money to a lawyer. if someone else who knows how to handle this starts a lawsuit or legal investigations i would like to join and support with a few bucks if needed just to watch his scammerass burn."

I would start here.

http://www.business-standard.com/article/news-ani/australian-legal-firm-accepts-bitcoin-as-valid-currency-114020300227_1.html

or go to his house in perth Australia with a camera and start protesting.



I am willing to join your team, to find Graet and take back our money!

[lenny_]

I will be happy to join lawsuit too and throw in a few bucks. Let me know if one of you is preparing it.

[julz]

So it's on public record that Graeme Tee was in Tokyo in early February.

Does anyone know if this was just a holiday or if it had purposes related to the Bitcoin loan?


Graeme  - it's time to communicate.

[ru0chen]

MTGOX was sued， what's going on great.loan?

[lunarboy]

So it's on public record that Graeme Tee was in Tokyo in early February.

Does anyone know if this was just a holiday or if it had purposes related to the Bitcoin loan?


Graeme  - it's time to communicate.

Graeme, time to update us please. What is your plan?

[Danglebee]

his word mean nothing.
write off loss. less stress.. sorry

[ortsi]

Graeme, can you give us an update?

[ru0chen]

I need update!

[nonlinearboy]

where is the update?

[glendall]

I'm sincerely surprised that any of you , let alone many of you, expect you will somehow get any of your money back out of this.  With over 6000 BTC lost between this loan and his stealing of WeExchange deposits, and he hasn't even told us what happened, and its been months, you guys are really deluding yourself. You might as well get on with things, this guy is a crook, as I've been saying since months ago, you've been scammed.

[sporket]

i'm very patient, but even my patience is not infinite...

No?

[minimin3r]

To Infinity!!!! ... and beyond! Light the torches and get out your pitchforks! We've got ourselves a witch to burn.


But seriously, come on Graet, some info would be appreciated. You can maybe
even use ukyo's template for his loan claim site, if you ask him nicely.

[CoinExpert]

I don't know what is happening here, I have no investments with Graet but I went into his pool channel and he is happy to talk away in there.

"<+Kittan> Nice big shop would be pretty great.
<@Graet> yeah, having space helps
<@Graet> much available in your area?
<+Kittan> Yeah, but I'm a cheapskate. I don't like the idea of paying $2000 a month for a good shop. Right now the business side pays $425 for full run of the basement. Adding $1600 to that is a heck of a lot of overhead.
<+Kittan> $1200 total would be maybe reasonable if we can find something.
<@Graet> ahh, yeah, makes sense
<+Kittan> I mean if I was spending $2000 a month toward having a shop I'd rather be spending that on paying back the construction loan we got to build our own.
<+Kittan> Every dollar we spend on rent puts us farther away from actually being able to buy/build.
<@Graet> yep
<+Kittan> Speaking of, I should probably go get to work. Gotta do some more testing on a control loop for an active dummy load.
<+Kittan> The next PSU board is rated for over 2KW so we're building an adjustable 3KW dummy load to test it with. It'll also come in handy for testing some other power systems we want to build later this year - wind turbine stuff and whatnot.
<@Graet> sounds fun, laters
<+Kittan> Oh yeah, and the neverending stream of manufacturing. Especially if the new customer turns into a big contract... Looking forward to that.
<@Graet> "

I thought I would look into this matter, maybe he was too busy, but he has plenty of time to talk on IRC.

So this stuff is only afew hours ago, he has plenty of time to address you guys. Why is he not posting information here?

Go into #ozcoin on freenode

[thy]

I'm sincerely surprised that any of you , let alone many of you, expect you will somehow get any of your money back out of this.  With over 6000 BTC lost between this loan and his stealing of WeExchange deposits, and he hasn't even told us what happened, and its been months, you guys are really deluding yourself. You might as well get on with things, this guy is a crook, as I've been saying since months ago, you've been scammed.

I don't think Graet had much to do about what happened on Weexchange, Ukyo seems to have been the one that was running the ship on both Bitfunder and Weexchange.

[tocoolforschool]

he has been sitting chatting on IRC for years. He is not busy trying to get your funds.
he also isn't reading this. do not kid yourselves.

you need to take up legal options and sue him. don't waste your time begging.

[ru0chen]

I want to sue him , does anyone be with me?

[Bananery]

So he's chatting away with people while he should be working to get funds to repay the loan. I'm not surprized. The only way to repay anything would be selling everything and buying bitcoins before the exchange rate goes up again. But no matter what, he still thinks his FIAT business will repay the debt.

The only BTC business he has is ozcoin, but it is dying as we speak. It has 0.05% of network again and users are leaving the pool. Only 145 users are left now.

Graet says in his post he needs to rebuilt the pool to 5%, but I have no idea how he's going to do that. It's quite impossible at this point. And I'm not seeing anything being done to the pool to attract new miners.

I just hope he understands that no FIAT business can outperform BTC. It's probably too late to expect full redeems at this point because his all assets are simply not enough to buy enough bitcoins. It was already to late when the exchange rate jumped up last autumn.

According to my estimates he could repay at most 40-50% at this time if he sells everything and manages to buy at $450. Probably not going to happen, as he refuses to accept the reality.

[tolan77]

I want to sue him , does anyone be with me?

he has been sitting chatting on IRC for years. He is not busy trying to get your funds.
he also isn't reading this. do not kid yourselves.

you need to take up legal options and sue him. don't waste your time begging.

     I doubt many of us could individually sue him without paying our entire winnings in lawyer fees but we might be able to do something like the group that handled the Bakewell scenario did when he ran off. If people are interested I have made a google doc where we can pool the information and proof on what graet owes parties that would be interested in pursuing a legal option. If we get enough claimed shares we could send it to an Australian lawyer and get consulting on what our options are.

     If you'd like to be included in the google doc and look into legal action, send me a pm with a signed message containing  1.Your bitcointalk username 2. Your email 3. Amount of graet shares owned. Do this using the public bitfunder key connected to your bitfunder account (only 1 user doesn't have this and they only owns 10 shares) and I will add you to my google doc and share it with you. If you don't have the private key for your public bitfunder address I recommend trying your hardest to find it, cause in my opinion it's the only true way to prove ownership and for now the only proof I'll accept for my google doc.

     The last backup of the asset list of bitfunder I could find was here https://btct.co/history-bitfunder/2013-12-03-05%3A30-bitfunder-assetlist.html .
According to that there is ~80 of us that own graet bonds with ~30 of those owners owning >= 1000 bonds each (or 10 bitcoin's worth). I'm sure one of those large owners is Graet himself but still the threat of a class action lawsuit from the rest of those large holders could be a little frightening and might encourage Graet to at least become a little bit more responsive on how he plans to make this right. I and several others have been more than patient and I'm almost done being patient.

According to my estimates he could repay at most 40-50% at this time if he sells everything and manages to buy at $450. Probably not going to happen, as he refuses to accept the reality.

Only way to get him to do that would be through the courts. I'd prefer him not have to do that if he has the bitcoins to pay what he owes but would prefer some of my bitcoins back as opposed to none if that's what it comes down to.

[Bananery]

According to my estimates he could repay at most 40-50% at this time if he sells everything and manages to buy at $450. Probably not going to happen, as he refuses to accept the reality.

Only way to get him to do that would be through the courts. I'd prefer him not have to do that if he has the bitcoins to pay what he owes but would prefer some of my bitcoins back as opposed to none if that's what it comes down to.

Did you read my messages? When I say the only way for him to pay back anything is to sell all of his assets and buy bitcoins, I mean he doesn't have much bitcoins. If you prefer him not selling his assets, you don't want to be paid.

The longer he takes to convert his assets, that are not bitcoin if you still don't get it, to bitcoins, the less creditors get back DUE TO INCREASING BITCOIN EXCHANGE RATE.

He doesn't have bitcoins, but he has some assets. If he wants to pay, he must sell assets and buy bitcoins, so that he can pay back a part of his debt. My estimate is if he sells everything, he might repay at most 50%.

[tolan77]

According to my estimates he could repay at most 40-50% at this time if he sells everything and manages to buy at $450. Probably not going to happen, as he refuses to accept the reality.

Only way to get him to do that would be through the courts. I'd prefer him not have to do that if he has the bitcoins to pay what he owes but would prefer some of my bitcoins back as opposed to none if that's what it comes down to.

Did you read my messages? When I say the only way for him to pay back anything is to sell all of his assets and buy bitcoins, I mean he doesn't have much bitcoins. If you prefer him not selling his assets, you don't want to be paid.

The longer he takes to convert his assets, that are not bitcoin if you still don't get it, to bitcoins, the less creditors get back DUE TO INCREASING BITCOIN EXCHANGE RATE.

He doesn't have bitcoins, but he has some assets. If he wants to pay, he must sell assets and buy bitcoins, so that he can pay back a part of his debt. My estimate is if he sells everything, he might repay at most 50%.

I said 'prefer' and 'if but I admit I worded it terribly. What I meant was, I would prefer him to just pay what he owes in bitcoins however he can without us having to MAKE him sell everything. If that's what we have to do though I am more than willing to do so through legal action to recoup even just partially what he owes me.

[wang_yan]

I thought Great said he's gonna repay the loan in the middle of 2014?

[Bananery]

I thought Great said he's gonna repay the loan in the middle of 2014?

He said bulk of the loan, not the whole loan. I don't know what he really means by the bulk, it's probably more than half.

Another thing he said is that litigation will force him into bankruptcy. By saying that he admits he can't repay much. His promises could be just wishful thinking and hopes he can somehow rebuild his ozcoin pool. That is not happening.

He might have some other secret investments that he's not mentioning, but I don't think it's enough to repay all the debt even if he has something. Let's hope I'm wrong.

[ru0chen]

I want to sue him , does anyone be with me?

he has been sitting chatting on IRC for years. He is not busy trying to get your funds.
he also isn't reading this. do not kid yourselves.

you need to take up legal options and sue him. don't waste your time begging.

     I doubt many of us could individually sue him without paying our entire winnings in lawyer fees but we might be able to do something like the group that handled the Bakewell scenario did when he ran off. If people are interested I have made a google doc where we can pool the information and proof on what graet owes parties that would be interested in pursuing a legal option. If we get enough claimed shares we could send it to an Australian lawyer and get consulting on what our options are.

According to my estimates he could repay at most 40-50% at this time if he sells everything and manages to buy at $450. Probably not going to happen, as he refuses to accept the reality.

Only way to get him to do that would be through the courts. I'd prefer him not have to do that if he has the bitcoins to pay what he owes but would prefer some of my bitcoins back as opposed to none if that's what it comes down to.

Thank you! I have PM you my message and I want to join the group that pursuing a legal option

[thy]

Dear graet.loan holders,
Firstly I would like to apologise for my lack of communication - I have found this to be a very trying time.

Despite the ongoing FUD campaign I have not "run off", do not have health issues and have not "cashed out all the BTC", I am still working toward the goal of having most of graet.loan paid off by mid 2014 including any owed interest.

graet.loan was started to consolidate loans from community members after Ozcoin was hacked, give an easy management platform and provide some liquidity for my Bitcoin businesses. This was working well until changes at BitFunder were announced 2 hours after I left for a family holiday (my wifes first holiday in 5 years) by the time I got home 5 days later my portfolio had lost over 500BTC value and I had a list of redeem requests.

Current situation:
Ozcoin Bitcoin Pool has gone from over 10% of the network to under 0.05% over the last few months due to various and ongoing attacks that have disrupted operation and scared off miners - we need to build it back to at least 5% of the network.
Invested in a startup before Bitfunder issues, currently finishing legals moving to beta after New Year.
CrownCloud continues to bring a growing profit every month, planning to expand operations after New Year.
violence will not get coins,
litigation forcing me into bankruptcy will result in a minimal return for unsecured investors,
being patient and allowing me to continue and grow my Bitcoin businesses while still aiming to return the bulk of great.loan by mid 2014 will give investors the best return.

Best Wishes
Graet

Graet can we have some updates to what happens here on this graet.loan, its around 5 months since you said anything in this thread now. When will you honor the redeemed requests, what progress have you been doing during the last 5 months and explain why you havent, if so only for a few single days to show your good intentions payed dividend after Bitfuner was closed down ?

[BitHub]

LOL @ thinking he's going to reply, reads this thread, ever going to pay it back.

[ru0chen]

graet: give back my money!

[Justin00]

mate he s on IRC
irc.freenode.org

/join #bitcoin-aus

graet: give back my money!

[fluffypony]

mate he s on IRC
irc.freenode.org

/join #bitcoin-aus

graet: give back my money!

And on #bitcoin-otc and on #bitcoin-assets

[13:15:10] Graet signed on at 05 June 2014 at 10:01:43 AM SAST and has been idle for 30 minutes, 53 seconds

[ortsi]

Hi,

I would like to join a lawsuit for Graet.Loan, if there is one, assuming a reasonable cost. I lost more than 10 BTC. Please contact me here or via PM.

Thanks!

[thy]

LOL @ thinking he's going to reply, reads this thread, ever going to pay it back.

Theres no reason why he shouldent show the lenders some respect and comunicate with them regularly about what he has done, now does and how the curret situation is, as he keeps logging in every week on bitcointalk.

[Hippie Tech]

10 BTC is chump's change when compared to the pool's DGM surplus.

Or how about the 800-900 BTC theft/ "hack" ?

[ru0chen]

Hi,

I would like to join a lawsuit for Graet.Loan, if there is one, assuming a reasonable cost. I lost more than 183 BTC. Please contact me here or via PM.

Thanks!

[Justin00]

Real shame.
me and many many others did heaps of trades with Graet.

He's the only 'scammer' I feel abit sorry for.. Fellow got mixed up with the wrong crowd shall we say. Never the less, he does owe all that $$.

[julz]

Without prejudice,

I believe I am the largest creditor in relation to the Graet.Loan.
I am located in Australia, and have been in preliminary discussions with a Sydney law firm regarding this. (One that is familiar with Bitcoin and has done work related to the Australian Bitcoin industry)

As Graeme Tee indicated his intentions to pay the bulk of the loan off some time in mid 2014 - I haven't yet sent him any direct communications regarding a demand for payment of either interest or principal.

Given that it is now July, and he hasn't made any recent public statements - I will likely send a letter of demand soon.

That said - I'm not hopeful that Graeme's businesses are in a position for him to put a meaningful dent in his liabilities at the moment.

If Graeme will communicate, I may even delay legal action a little further. I am also amenable to renegotiating the interest rate to a *lower* amount. (Though I speak only for myself in this)
I believe the change in the Bitcoin mining landscape was one critical factor in reducing his ability to pay back this loan, and this caught many of us off-guard - so I think it's reasonable to reassess the interest rate.

Graeme, Please communicate and negotiate with us.

[rudrigorc2]

Without prejudice,

I believe I am the largest creditor in relation to the Graet.Loan.
I am located in Australia, and have been in preliminary discussions with a Sydney law firm regarding this. (One that is familiar with Bitcoin and has done work related to the Australian Bitcoin industry)

As Graeme Tee indicated his intentions to pay the bulk of the loan off some time in mid 2014 - I haven't yet sent him any direct communications regarding a demand for payment of either interest or principal.

Given that it is now July, and he hasn't made any recent public statements - I will likely send a letter of demand soon.

That said - I'm not hopeful that Graeme's businesses are in a position for him to put a meaningful dent in his liabilities at the moment.

If Graeme will communicate, I may even delay legal action a little further. I am also amenable to renegotiating the interest rate to a *lower* amount. (Though I speak only for myself in this)
I believe the change in the Bitcoin mining landscape was one critical factor in reducing his ability to pay back this loan, and this caught many of us off-guard - so I think it's reasonable to reassess the interest rate.

Graeme, Please communicate and negotiate with us.

Yes please communicate Graet.

[thy]

Without prejudice,

I believe I am the largest creditor in relation to the Graet.Loan.
I am located in Australia, and have been in preliminary discussions with a Sydney law firm regarding this. (One that is familiar with Bitcoin and has done work related to the Australian Bitcoin industry)

As Graeme Tee indicated his intentions to pay the bulk of the loan off some time in mid 2014 - I haven't yet sent him any direct communications regarding a demand for payment of either interest or principal.

Given that it is now July, and he hasn't made any recent public statements - I will likely send a letter of demand soon.

That said - I'm not hopeful that Graeme's businesses are in a position for him to put a meaningful dent in his liabilities at the moment.

If Graeme will communicate, I may even delay legal action a little further. I am also amenable to renegotiating the interest rate to a *lower* amount. (Though I speak only for myself in this)
I believe the change in the Bitcoin mining landscape was one critical factor in reducing his ability to pay back this loan, and this caught many of us off-guard - so I think it's reasonable to reassess the interest rate.

Graeme, Please communicate and negotiate with us.

If your the 13NbNBhTtUeuCTFXE6XfqkZ57kbrsMEMmp bitcoinadress with 27 575 shares in Graet loan then you should be the biggest creditor. There is 27 creditors with over 1000 shares(10 btc) and 80 creditors in total in Graet loan.

[Sydboy]

If your from Aus why dont you visit him ?
i'll pay him a visit if people are willing to pay. people pay up when you confront them. people have posted up how he sits on IRC so he must be running scared, in hiding, on irc.

[ru0chen]

julz:  I would like to join a lawsuit for Graet.Loan, if there is one, assuming a reasonable cost. I lost more than 183 BTC. Please contact me here or via PM.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

Without prejudice,

I believe I am the largest creditor in relation to the Graet.Loan.
I am located in Australia, and have been in preliminary discussions with a Sydney law firm regarding this. (One that is familiar with Bitcoin and has done work related to the Australian Bitcoin industry)

As Graeme Tee indicated his intentions to pay the bulk of the loan off some time in mid 2014 - I haven't yet sent him any direct communications regarding a demand for payment of either interest or principal.

Given that it is now July, and he hasn't made any recent public statements - I will likely send a letter of demand soon.

That said - I'm not hopeful that Graeme's businesses are in a position for him to put a meaningful dent in his liabilities at the moment.

If Graeme will communicate, I may even delay legal action a little further. I am also amenable to renegotiating the interest rate to a *lower* amount. (Though I speak only for myself in this)
I believe the change in the Bitcoin mining landscape was one critical factor in reducing his ability to pay back this loan, and this caught many of us off-guard - so I think it's reasonable to reassess the interest rate.

Graeme, Please communicate and negotiate with us.

Good luck, please keep us reasonably updated.

16,302 Graet.Loan shares (btcinvest) here.

[leahsandes]

Good luck, please keep us reasonably updated.

16,302 Graet.Loan shares (btcinvest) here.

These need to be reposessed. how can he be allowed have so many nice things?

[Phildo]

Since when do shares of a defaulted loan count as good things?

[ru0chen]

Graet if you want me to stop asking your friends what you have done and how i can contact you, you should explain the situation here public or send my coins back. I know you read this.

If your plan is to stay it out and forget it, it will not work Smiley, many of us wont give up.

[szmarco]

Old Graet, When will you tell us what's going on?

[DRK]

Having read this thread it seems the time for asking him is up, time to ask yourselves the plan of action. The legal fees would be a lot less than the BTC he has allegedly ran away with (source: I'm a lawyer, although not in this field).

[thecoinjournal]

Having read this thread it seems the time for asking him is up, time to ask yourselves the plan of action. The legal fees would be a lot less than the BTC he has allegedly ran away with (source: I'm a lawyer, although not in this field).

I'm willing to join a lawsuit if there's one.

[ru0chen]

I'm readlly willing to join a lawsuit too

[joris]

Check the mailbox associated with your BitFunder account for a message from loan@graet.net

At least I've received a message.

[ortsi]

I'm willing to join a lawsuit (for 15 BTC). The most important issue: Is there a volunteer willing to organize it, with enough credibility?

[ohyeahok]

Check the mailbox associated with your BitFunder account for a message from loan@graet.net

At least I've received a message.

me too.

[szmarco]

Check the mailbox associated with your BitFunder account for a message from loan@graet.net

At least I've received a message.

me too.

I didn't receive it. What's the content?

[tolan77]

Check the mailbox associated with your BitFunder account for a message from loan@graet.net

At least I've received a message.

me too.

I didn't receive it. What's the content?

Here's the email I received. I don't know if the content is different for anyone else.

Hello graet.loan holders,
I have set up this email to be able to communicate with actual loan holders, rather than anyone with an opinion (bitcointalk).

Over the last few month business has improved:
Crowncloud.net continues to grow and has expanded the range of products and services available to customers,
After opening up a Chinese mining node Avalon joined Ozcoin with 1/2 of their farm, this is the first step in building Ozcoin back to a viable size.
The start up I invested in is planning to launch in September.
I am also looking into other projects.

I am planning to do a 1% payout after 7 days, this will total just under 20btc as I hold some graet.loan I was able to buy back before BF closed.
I know it isn't much, but it is a start.
Further payments will be made as funds become available.

I am delaying the payout 7 days to give people time to send me an updated Bitcoin address for payouts to be sent to, otherwise payouts will be sent to the registered public Bitfunder Bitcoin address.
to update address please reply to this email from your Bitfunder email address with "update" in Subject and include your public Bitfunder Bitcoin address.

Please note:
Continued lies,legal action,  attacks on my businesses and character will delay or stop my ability to repay the loan.
support of my businesses will speed my ability to repay the loan

Best wishes
Graeme

[twentyseventy]

Please note:
Continued lies,legal action,  attacks on my businesses and character will delay or stop my ability to repay the loan.
support of my businesses will speed my ability to repay the loan

Best wishes
Graeme

Hmmm... where else have I heard this before...

[thy]

Check the mailbox associated with your BitFunder account for a message from loan@graet.net

At least I've received a message.

me too.

I didn't receive it. What's the content?

Here's the email I received. I don't know if the content is different for anyone else.

Hello graet.loan holders,
I have set up this email to be able to communicate with actual loan holders, rather than anyone with an opinion (bitcointalk).

Over the last few month business has improved:
Crowncloud.net continues to grow and has expanded the range of products and services available to customers,
After opening up a Chinese mining node Avalon joined Ozcoin with 1/2 of their farm, this is the first step in building Ozcoin back to a viable size.
The start up I invested in is planning to launch in September.
I am also looking into other projects.

I am planning to do a 1% payout after 7 days, this will total just under 20btc as I hold some graet.loan I was able to buy back before BF closed.
I know it isn't much, but it is a start.
Further payments will be made as funds become available.

I am delaying the payout 7 days to give people time to send me an updated Bitcoin address for payouts to be sent to, otherwise payouts will be sent to the registered public Bitfunder Bitcoin address.
to update address please reply to this email from your Bitfunder email address with "update" in Subject and include your public Bitfunder Bitcoin address.

Please note:
Continued lies,legal action,  attacks on my businesses and character will delay or stop my ability to repay the loan.
support of my businesses will speed my ability to repay the loan

Best wishes
Graeme

Thanks for the update Graeme on the situation and the progress your making and thanks joris and tolan77 for making us aware about the mail, i also recieved the email.

[Bananery]

What about if someone has set wrong address on bitfunder and is now on vacation? Graet doesn't care about that? I thought a honorable man would do it the other way. He would wait for confirmation of the address from all creditors.

But Graet doesn't care, he will then blame his creditors if it happens.

[TurdHurdur]

What about if someone has set wrong address on bitfunder and is now on vacation? Graet doesn't care about that? I thought a honorable man would do it the other way. He would wait for confirmation of the address from all creditors.

But Graet doesn't care, he will then blame his creditors if it happens.

If they have the wrong address on Bitfunder, how would he identify the owner of the loan units? If you no longer have the private key to the address, you're pretty much screwed.

[Bananery]

What about if someone has set wrong address on bitfunder and is now on vacation? Graet doesn't care about that? I thought a honorable man would do it the other way. He would wait for confirmation of the address from all creditors.

But Graet doesn't care, he will then blame his creditors if it happens.

If they have the wrong address on Bitfunder, how would he identify the owner of the loan units? If you no longer have the private key to the address, you're pretty much screwed.

One is e-mail. If not, then prove that you still has access to your BitFunder and Weex accounts. All the account data, account names, passwords and 2-factor from both is in hands of Ukyo and Graet, who is the director on Australian Weex.

So don't give me this bullshit. Graet has access to all the data. Graet either doesn't give a shit or is just too lazy to verify account data.

[glendall]

Ukyo? The guy who stole or 'lost' over 6000 btc and 'can't talk about' why he can't pay back his massive loan he took out ? Don't you think its a bit off along shot to get the guy who stole money to help you by supplying records regarding this other guy who stole your money?

You'll never get your money back through legal means. You'd only have a slim chance if you many tens of thousands  dollars to get the ball rolling. But its better than nothing. If he didnt feel any pressure at all then youll surely never get repaid.

[TurdHurdur]

If they have the wrong address on Bitfunder, how would he identify the owner of the loan units? If you no longer have the private key to the address, you're pretty much screwed.

One is e-mail. If not, then prove that you still has access to your BitFunder and Weex accounts. All the account data, account names, passwords and 2-factor from both is in hands of Ukyo and Graet, who is the director on Australian Weex.

So don't give me this bullshit. Graet has access to all the data. Graet either doesn't give a shit or is just too lazy to verify account data.

He's only indicated he has access to the list of Bitcoin addresses. Bullshit or not, you can't determine if he has more data than that.

[joris]

... If you no longer have the private key to the address, you're pretty much screwed.

Here you're touching the bare nature of Bitcoin: private key = bitcoin at hand. And just like cash, if it's gone for real, it's gone, nothing to do about it.

Unfortunately with contracts, like giving your cash or bitcoin to someone else, you replace available bitcoin with hope. And hope is hard to kill. Mostly expensive also ;-)

[Bananery]

One is e-mail. If not, then prove that you still has access to your BitFunder and Weex accounts. All the account data, account names, passwords and 2-factor from both is in hands of Ukyo and Graet, who is the director on Australian Weex.

So don't give me this bullshit. Graet has access to all the data. Graet either doesn't give a shit or is just too lazy to verify account data.

He's only indicated he has access to the list of Bitcoin addresses. Bullshit or not, you can't determine if he has more data than that.

I say this once again. Graet is the director of Weex Australia. Ukyo and Graet made together the Weex. I'm sure Ukyo can give the data of specific users to Graet if he requests it. All the customer data from both Bitfunder and Weex is backed up to Ukyo's back-up servers, I know that for sure.

[lenny_]

7 days already past, did he send payment yet?

[Kuma]

Nothing here yet.

[thy]

7 days already past, did he send payment yet?

it is 9 days since the mail was sent from Graeme and no payment have arrived yet.

[wang_yan]

I haven't received anything yet. However, seems OzCoin is doing great.

[Hippie Tech]

I haven't received anything yet. However, seems OzCoin is doing great.

Ask him for a cut of the DGM surplus.

[Justin00]

How long you guys going to wait for Graet to do absolutely jack shit aboutthis ?
almost been a year... longer you wait the less chance you have of getting anything.

Graet played you for fools... and he is winning.
take action peoples.... farking draw up legal papers..hit hm were it hurts... he has a family.. I assume his family needs money to survive...
or would you prefer your family suffers because Graet is to selfish to pay his debts ?

Oh well.... least Graet is having a good life at the expense of you sucker... .errr investors... farking makes me sick how nothng ever gets done.
Hate to piss off the person who owes you money incase *gasp* they choose to not pay you back.

the tme of being nice has come and gone... go collect what is yours. stop being pussies.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

As this is a personal debt, I'm very sure that you will receive adequate compensation if you take legal action.

What's his address to serve a statement of claims?

[TurdHurdur]

How long you guys going to wait for Graet to do absolutely jack shit aboutthis ?
almost been a year... longer you wait the less chance you have of getting anything.

Graet played you for fools... and he is winning.
take action peoples.... farking draw up legal papers..hit hm were it hurts... he has a family.. I assume his family needs money to survive...
or would you prefer your family suffers because Graet is to selfish to pay his debts ?

Oh well.... least Graet is having a good life at the expense of you sucker... .errr investors... farking makes me sick how nothng ever gets done.
Hate to piss off the person who owes you money incase *gasp* they choose to not pay you back.

the tme of being nice has come and gone... go collect what is yours. stop being pussies.

How very bold of you, how much does he owe you and how much do you want to chip in on the lawyers?

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

How very bold of you, how much does he owe you and how much do you want to chip in on the lawyers?

You don't need a lawyer to start legal action. Start by drafting a letter of demand and send it via registered post to Graeme Tee. Depending on the monetary value you are claiming and the state, you can sue him in the small claims division and represent yourself.

Anyone have the address of Graeme Tee?

[Justin00]

He owes me nothing...... I don't invest in BTC "companies".

I got involved in the BTC world by doing debt collecting... At one stage I was getting all my BTC from doing debt collecting.
Nothing violent!! But you would be surprised how inclined someone is to pay up when you turn up at their house.

and under no circumstances do I mean go after family!!! I really mean that! Its not the families fault that whoever owes money is a degenerate.

Quite funny actually... One a few occasions when I needed some extra BTC I actually used to buy from Graet... :p That was when the debt collecting game slowed down. I'm from Australia so not as many degenerates as the rest of the world, but still enough (atleast a few years ago when I used to do it).... and before anyone asks... Perth where Graet lives (or lived??) is other side of Aus from me.. so I aint going there... and my GF won't let me these days :p

How long you guys going to wait for Graet to do absolutely jack shit aboutthis ?
almost been a year... longer you wait the less chance you have of getting anything.

Graet played you for fools... and he is winning.
take action peoples.... farking draw up legal papers..hit hm were it hurts... he has a family.. I assume his family needs money to survive...
or would you prefer your family suffers because Graet is to selfish to pay his debts ?

Oh well.... least Graet is having a good life at the expense of you sucker... .errr investors... farking makes me sick how nothng ever gets done.
Hate to piss off the person who owes you money incase *gasp* they choose to not pay you back.

the tme of being nice has come and gone... go collect what is yours. stop being pussies.

How very bold of you, how much does he owe you and how much do you want to chip in on the lawyers?

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

[h3]Request for information[/h3]

I am requesting the 'Current company information' company extract document from ASIC ( https://connectonline.asic.gov.au/RegistrySearch/faces/landing/panelSearch.jspx?searchText=152308239&searchType=OrgAndBusNm&_adf.ctrl-state=tas6tde7z_4 ) regarding WeExchange Australia, Pty. Ltd. I believe that someone here has already paid for the document.

If you do, please email me.

[Bananery]

As this is a personal debt, I'm very sure that you will receive adequate compensation if you take legal action.

What's his address to serve a statement of claims?

According to my sources no one will ever receive any adequate compensation.

Graet is almost broke. His promises are just words.

9 month ago he said he would repay bulk of the loan by mid 2014. Now he promised 20BTC to all of us, which is pathetic. By the way, he still didn't pay those 20BTC. 20BTC is 1% of 2000BTC. According to my sources Graet bought back about 7000 of his shares, which is 70BTC. So he still owes 1930BTC.

I know how much his "btc businesses" make. It's very little. If you sue him, you get almost nothing after all legal fees.

Write this off, he is really a degenerate just like Justin00 says.

According to my sources in summer 2013 Graet had BTC securities worth at least 1000BTC. Almost all of them were scams and he waited until October or Novermber when it was too late sell them.

Graet himself admits his garbage portfolio lost 500BTC value in October. In summer his garbage portfolio was worth much more.

I'm not going to list what he had and how much. I can say I verified some of the data my sources gave me. It all was correct.

We can hope for very little compensations. Suing will give even less, because according to my sources he's almost broke.

[Bananery]

[h3]Request for information[/h3]

I am requesting the 'Current company information' company extract document from ASIC ( https://connectonline.asic.gov.au/RegistrySearch/faces/landing/panelSearch.jspx?searchText=152308239&searchType=OrgAndBusNm&_adf.ctrl-state=tas6tde7z_4 ) regarding WeExchange Australia, Pty. Ltd. I believe that someone here has already paid for the document.

If you do, please email me.

You are a scammer too. Graet will ignore all of your requests and demands. When people gave you bitcoins they didn't have any kind of written agreement with you. Legally they can't demand anything from you. You know this very well.

You didn't have any written agreement with Graet either. His forums posts mean nothing, so you can't do anything. Graet might pay other creditors a little bit, probably very little only because he doesn't want to lose his face completely. But you're a scammer, so you're last on his list.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

When people gave you bitcoins they didn't have any kind of written agreement with you. Legally they can't demand anything from you. You know this very well.

You didn't have any written agreement with Graet either. His forums posts mean nothing, so you can't do anything. Graet might pay other creditors a little bit, probably very little only because he doesn't want to lose his face completely. But you're a scammer, so you're last on his list.

I believe the contract on BitFunder qualifies as a legally enforceable contract. For your information, written agreements are not needed. Oral contracts are legally enforceable.

As this is a personal debt, I'm very sure that you will receive adequate compensation if you take legal action.

What's his address to serve a statement of claims?

According to my sources no one will ever receive any adequate compensation.

Graet is almost broke. His promises are just words.

9 month ago he said he would repay bulk of the loan by mid 2014. Now he promised 20BTC to all of us [1], which is pathetic. By the way, he still didn't pay those 20BTC. 20BTC is 1% of 2000BTC. According to my sources Graet bought back about 7000 of his shares, which is 70BTC. So he still owes 1930BTC.

I know how much his "btc businesses" make. It's very little. If you sue him, you get almost nothing after all legal fees. [2]

Write this off, he is really a degenerate just like Justin00 says.

[1]: Without prejudice, 20 BTC is about $10,000 AUD which is the monetary ceiling of minor claims in WA magistrates courts.

[2]: The filing fee in the magistrates court for claim not exceeding $10,000 AUD is $79 AUD. While there are further fees, including traveling costs for me, they will still make it worthy to pursue the claim. I'd like to visit Perth too

[3]: It seems that you're unhappy with others pursuing legal action because you are worried that Graeme Tee will stop paying to investors who are unwilling to pursue legal action, and only settle with those who take the legal avenue. Sorry that you're unwilling to excise your possible avenues of debt recovery.

You're not going to convince me on anything - you are not a party to my dispute. I have not made any formal "requests and demands" yet.

Anyways, if anyone is in Australia and has outstanding Graet debt and is interested in pursuing small/minor claims legal action, send me an email.

[julz]

[h3]Request for information[/h3]

I am requesting the 'Current company information' company extract document from ASIC ( https://connectonline.asic.gov.au/RegistrySearch/faces/landing/panelSearch.jspx?searchText=152308239&searchType=OrgAndBusNm&_adf.ctrl-state=tas6tde7z_4 ) regarding WeExchange Australia, Pty. Ltd. I believe that someone here has already paid for the document.

If you do, please email me.

You are a scammer too. Graet will ignore all of your requests and demands. When people gave you bitcoins they didn't have any kind of written agreement with you. Legally they can't demand anything from you. You know this very well.

You didn't have any written agreement with Graet either. His forums posts mean nothing, so you can't do anything. Graet might pay other creditors a little bit, probably very little only because he doesn't want to lose his face completely. But you're a scammer, so you're last on his list.

You didn't have any written agreement with Graet either. His forums posts mean nothing, so you can't do anything.

Without prejudice: I have received an Australian legal opinion which said otherwise.

That said - if Graeme can come up with the occasional 1% payment over the next year or so - and actually stick to his own schedules - and communicate better - I may be willing to give him a chance to have another entrepeneurial shot within this new bitcoin space.
This is a growing industry with lots of opportunity. While Graeme has come unstuck for one reason or another - he has demonstrated some strong entrepreneurial spirit and the expertise to get some projects off the ground.

The lack of communication, and further failure to stick to his word is angering me though.

Graeme - as the single largest graet.loan holder, I'm willing to give you the peace of mind that no legal action is pending from me (over some to be agreed period). You need to *negotiate* the timeframes with us.
 

[lunarboy]

Tradefortress: or whoever you are these days. Please go away, you're helping nobody but yourself .... as usual.

Julz: Agreed if graeme were to come up with a viable business plan and some sort of timeframe for payback, along with occasional 'windfall' payouts i'd be happy.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

ASIC company extract: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bza0Sx1iSRWqRVlNSm94YUtwSjQ/preview?pli=1

[thy]

According to my sources no one will ever receive any adequate compensation.

Graet is almost broke. His promises are just words.

9 month ago he said he would repay bulk of the loan by mid 2014. Now he promised 20BTC to all of us, which is pathetic. By the way, he still didn't pay those 20BTC. 20BTC is 1% of 2000BTC. According to my sources Graet bought back about 7000 of his shares, which is 70BTC. So he still owes 1930BTC.

Accourding to the asset holders list when bitfunder closed there was only 194 006 outstanding shares in Graet loan so he must have bought back 5 994 shares back then already, or did you mean that Graet also is one of these adresses to:

7855   1FQLUf2cnS5gbEyxhbxEVkURVJ76DJHFej
7481   1JgrxkAbiCUnhY7jYJ5Vkiisx4DynNxCD9
6998   15x6dVyAJSXeH897dJ3cgF7Wf7CekeZmgj

that holds around 7000 shares in Graet loan.

I know how much his "btc businesses" make. It's very little. If you sue him, you get almost nothing after all legal fees.

Write this off, he is really a degenerate just like Justin00 says.

According to my sources in summer 2013 Graet had BTC securities worth at least 1000BTC. Almost all of them were scams and he waited until October or Novermber when it was too late sell them.

Graet himself admits his garbage portfolio lost 500BTC value in October. In summer his garbage portfolio was worth much more.

I'm not going to list what he had and how much. I can say I verified some of the data my sources gave me. It all was correct.

We can hope for very little compensations. Suing will give even less, because according to my sources he's almost broke.

What happened to the 500 BTC that was left in October, dident Graet sell off any of those stocks and get his funds out of BTCTC & Bitfunder or whatever stock exchange he had investments in ?
500 btc is at least 25% of what the loan was for & if he has taken advantage of the BTC price movement since then and sold/bought at the right time to the right price it could be much more by now.

[glendall]

More general docs on the criminal Ukyo, and his partner in crime Graet:

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0Bza0Sx1iSRWqYVRiMkRaLVlrcFE&usp=sharing

If anyone has any updated info, whereabouts, facebook page, or anything, please post. It's disgusting that these two have stole more than 6000 btc from their users, and they've had nothing happen, not even so much as an inconvenience.

Can't stand thieves myself, I'm surprised how calm most of you have been just watching your money get stolen from your pockets.

[Justin00]

I've been here since 2012 and seen it happen so many times.
I don't understand how people are so laid back about it... some one screwed me over $7 on ebay once... all hell broke loose... Twas the principle of the matter.

99% of people aren't going to confront some one though and that is usually the only way to make progress.
I dare say less than 1% actually follow through with legal proceedings... Heaps of "yeah yeah I will sue xxx to" but making the statement seems to be the only action taken.

Each to their own. You guys must be way to rich

Can't stand thieves myself, I'm surprised how calm most of you have been just watching your money get stolen from your pockets.

[rudrigorc2]

Graet owes me 150BTC since april/13. Not part of this specific loan.

So, add this to the disaster.

[Blazed]

So he can not even be bothered to post here owning over $1,000,000 in BTC? Amazing....

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

So he can not even be bothered to post here owning over $1,000,000 in BTC? Amazing....

Do you see the value of the legal system now? Unfortunately it is impractical if you're across country borders, but some of us are in Australia.

PS: No, my messages are not intended for Graeme Tee. Bitcointalk is not the way I will be communicating with him.

[Keven]

According to my sources no one will ever receive any adequate compensation.

Graet is almost broke. His promises are just words.

9 month ago he said he would repay bulk of the loan by mid 2014. Now he promised 20BTC to all of us, which is pathetic. By the way, he still didn't pay those 20BTC. 20BTC is 1% of 2000BTC. According to my sources Graet bought back about 7000 of his shares, which is 70BTC. So he still owes 1930BTC.

Accourding to the asset holders list when bitfunder closed there was only 194 006 outstanding shares in Graet loan so he must have bought back 5 994 shares back then already, or did you mean that Graet also is one of these adresses to:

7855   1FQLUf2cnS5gbEyxhbxEVkURVJ76DJHFej
7481   1JgrxkAbiCUnhY7jYJ5Vkiisx4DynNxCD9
6998   15x6dVyAJSXeH897dJ3cgF7Wf7CekeZmgj

that holds around 7000 shares in Graet loan.

I know how much his "btc businesses" make. It's very little. If you sue him, you get almost nothing after all legal fees.

Write this off, he is really a degenerate just like Justin00 says.

According to my sources in summer 2013 Graet had BTC securities worth at least 1000BTC. Almost all of them were scams and he waited until October or Novermber when it was too late sell them.

Graet himself admits his garbage portfolio lost 500BTC value in October. In summer his garbage portfolio was worth much more.

I'm not going to list what he had and how much. I can say I verified some of the data my sources gave me. It all was correct.

We can hope for very little compensations. Suing will give even less, because according to my sources he's almost broke.

What happened to the 500 BTC that was left in October, dident Graet sell off any of those stocks and get his funds out of BTCTC & Bitfunder or whatever stock exchange he had investments in ?
500 btc is at least 25% of what the loan was for & if he has taken advantage of the BTC price movement since then and sold/bought at the right time to the right price it could be much more by now.

7855   1FQLUf2cnS5gbEyxhbxEVkURVJ76DJHFej
That's mine

[picolo]

So he can not even be bothered to post here owning over $1,000,000 in BTC? Amazing....

Do you see the value of the legal system now? Unfortunately it is impractical if you're across country borders, but some of us are in Australia.

PS: No, my messages are not intended for Graeme Tee. Bitcointalk is not the way I will be communicating with him.

You can have a legal system without a big powerful state that does unlawful acts all the time and want to control everything

[NotLambchop]

...
You can have a legal system without a big powerful state that does unlawful acts all the time and want to control everything

To have a legal system, you need to have a big_powerful_something, whatever you want to call it.  Because enforcement.

[Justin00]

Someone should have t-shirts made
"I invested with Graet and all I got was this t-shirt"

They will be a huge hit!! Seriously!! They could be custom made for 95% of the "companies" in securities section.
Bitcoin logo on 1 side, some one getting bent over on the other side...
big big money making op for someone with a t-shirt printing press thingo.

I'm some what serious.

[Justin00]

Oh sweet jesus I have it !!!
So some one wears the t-shirts I mentioned in post above... then your buddy could wear the classic "I'm with stupid" t-shirt with an arrow pointing to the side.

Again bitcoin logo on it... Obviously they have been done before, but could sell em as a pair.

[Hippie Tech]

Oh sweet jesus I have it !!!
So some one wears the t-shirts I mentioned in post above... then your buddy could wear the classic "I'm with stupid" t-shirt with an arrow pointing to the side.

Again bitcoin logo on it... Obviously they have been done before, but could sell em as a pair.

Crowd fund that shit and add billboards !

https://www.startjoin.com/hannityidiot

[ru0chen]

does anyone get the 1% reply? I get nothing~~~

[szmarco]

does anyone get the 1% reply? I get nothing~~~

deleted.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

Have been a bit busy, but don't worry my intentions have not changed

[thy]

does anyone get the 1% reply? I get nothing~~~

yes,i got it.
check this tx
https://blockchain.info/zh-cn/tx/8f1de07ddd69207a34f84e87371f63656f065005ca6383039fc782e997275126

Is that a bad joke or something ?

A) That transaction is from the 10 sept and none else than you have mentioned recieving any coins.
B) That transaction is in total under 5 btc not just below 20 BTC
C) I checked 5 random adresses that was sent coins in that transaction, none of them was on the list of adresses Graet owes Bitcoins.
D) He still havent sent me anything of what he owes me.

[lunarboy]

does anyone get the 1% reply? I get nothing~~~

yes,i got it.
check this tx
https://blockchain.info/zh-cn/tx/8f1de07ddd69207a34f84e87371f63656f065005ca6383039fc782e997275126

Is that a bad joke or something ?

A) That transaction is from the 10 sept and none else than you have mentioned recieving any coins.
B) That transaction is in total under 5 btc not just below 20 BTC
C) I checked 5 random adresses that was sent coins in that transaction, none of them was on the list of adresses Graet owes Bitcoins.
D) He still havent sent me anything of what he owes me.

conclusion ?  ru0chen=$username=tradefortress=trolls 

[szmarco]

does anyone get the 1% reply? I get nothing~~~

yes,i got it.
check this tx
https://blockchain.info/zh-cn/tx/8f1de07ddd69207a34f84e87371f63656f065005ca6383039fc782e997275126

Is that a bad joke or something ?

A) That transaction is from the 10 sept and none else than you have mentioned recieving any coins.
B) That transaction is in total under 5 btc not just below 20 BTC
C) I checked 5 random adresses that was sent coins in that transaction, none of them was on the list of adresses Graet owes Bitcoins.
D) He still havent sent me anything of what he owes me.

Sorry, my mistake. It's just the same amount of 1% of my lending.
i checked again. It was other payout.

[thy]

does anyone get the 1% reply? I get nothing~~~

yes,i got it.
check this tx
https://blockchain.info/zh-cn/tx/8f1de07ddd69207a34f84e87371f63656f065005ca6383039fc782e997275126

Is that a bad joke or something ?

A) That transaction is from the 10 sept and none else than you have mentioned recieving any coins.
B) That transaction is in total under 5 btc not just below 20 BTC
C) I checked 5 random adresses that was sent coins in that transaction, none of them was on the list of adresses Graet owes Bitcoins.
D) He still havent sent me anything of what he owes me.

Sorry, my mistake. It's just the same amount of 1% of my lending.
i checked again. It was other payout.

No worries we all make misstakes sometime.
In any case Great seems to be doing great the last 2 months so im sure Bitcoins will show up from him eventually.

[lunarboy]

I am planning to do a 1% payout after 7 days, this will total just under 20btc as I hold some graet.loan I was able to buy back before BF closed.
I know it isn't much, but it is a start.
Further payments will be made as funds become available.

I am delaying the payout 7 days to give people time to send me an updated Bitcoin address for payouts to be sent to, otherwise payouts will be sent to the registered public Bitfunder Bitcoin address.
to update address please reply to this email from your Bitfunder email address with "update" in Subject and include your public Bitfunder Bitcoin address.

Please note:
Continued lies,legal action,  attacks on my businesses and character will delay or stop my ability to repay the loan.
support of my businesses will speed my ability to repay the loan

One month on.... Still nothing.

This is increasingly looking like further stalling tactics. Graeme if you are out there? Some prompt action is needed to address concerns, reclaim credibility and investor trust.

[bigasic]

With the price plummeting like it is can only benefit lenders... I think that caused a lot of the issues, the price of btc skyrocketed, could be wrong. I, too have been screwed over by something similar...

[thy]

With the price plummeting like it is can only benefit lenders... I think that caused a lot of the issues, the price of btc skyrocketed, could be wrong. I, too have been screwed over by something similar...

I think the original problems for Graet goes back to when his mining pool had some bug in its payoutscript 2013 and they payed out 900? btc to much.

Then his loan on BF for 2 000 btc was as far as i understand partly used to pay back people that first loaned him the 900 btc that he was short and i think a large part of the remaining around 1100 btc was probably invested in btcstocks, when the two bitcoin stock exchanges btct.co and bitfunder had to close business many of his stocks lost a lot of value as i understand it, a 500-600 btc(50/60%) loss i think it was that graet himself mentioned, what happened to the remaining around 500 btc stock values after the initial big drop i have no ide.

His miningpool havent come back to the levels it was at back in the earlier mining days but it was doing pretty good for the months aug and sept this year when avalon pointed 1/2 there miners at his pools but it looks like avalon has left his pool some weeks ago, no ide why that is the case.

The lower price of bitcoin that we have seen recently should of course be a great time for graet to move some IRL assets into BTC if he wants to clear a large part of his btcloan debt, the mentioned 200 000 dollars would have bought around 667 BTC @ 300 usd/btc and if he had a buyorder at btc-e back earlier this year when it dropped down to even lower level he could possibly have BTC assets of well over 1000 btc, maby even over 1500 btc(if he managed to save the remaining 500 btc stockassets from btct.co/Bitfunder) by now, but i guess its a matter on how he have prioriticed things and what actions he has taken to fix his BTC debt problem.

[glendall]

A 1% payment on your loan might possibly come back to you... That's quite a relief. 

[smoothie]

This was Graet's last post in this thread...

Dear graet.loan holders,
Firstly I would like to apologise for my lack of communication - I have found this to be a very trying time.

Despite the ongoing FUD campaign I have not "run off", do not have health issues and have not "cashed out all the BTC", I am still working toward the goal of having most of graet.loan paid off by mid 2014 including any owed interest.

graet.loan was started to consolidate loans from community members after Ozcoin was hacked, give an easy management platform and provide some liquidity for my Bitcoin businesses. This was working well until changes at BitFunder were announced 2 hours after I left for a family holiday (my wifes first holiday in 5 years) by the time I got home 5 days later my portfolio had lost over 500BTC value and I had a list of redeem requests.

Current situation:
Ozcoin Bitcoin Pool has gone from over 10% of the network to under 0.05% over the last few months due to various and ongoing attacks that have disrupted operation and scared off miners - we need to build it back to at least 5% of the network.
Invested in a startup before Bitfunder issues, currently finishing legals moving to beta after New Year.
CrownCloud continues to bring a growing profit every month, planning to expand operations after New Year.
violence will not get coins,
litigation forcing me into bankruptcy will result in a minimal return for unsecured investors,
being patient and allowing me to continue and grow my Bitcoin businesses while still aiming to return the bulk of great.loan by mid 2014 will give investors the best return.

Best Wishes
Graet

The bold part is ironic as he has not posted in over 10 months to his own loan thread. LOL!

Sad and pathetic at the same time.

[smoothie]

Loan to Graet (Graeme Tee)
https://bitfunder.com/asset/Graet.Loan

References:
http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=Graet
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=108716.0
Owns and runs Ozcoin Pooled Mining Pty Ltd and CrownCloud.net
Australian Director WeExchange Australia Pty Ltd

Interest:
- Shares shall pay an interest of 0.05% daily.

Shares value:
- A maximum of 200,000 shares will be issued
- Shares have a face value of 0.01 BTC
- Shares retain a minimum of $0.1 USD value each.

Should any event make Bitcoins become valued at less than $1 USD per Bitcoin or impossible to be transacted, you may request to redeem your shares for $0.1 USD instead.

Redeeming Shares:
- Shares can be redeemed at face value anytime upon request.
- Redeeming shares may take some time to liquidate positions or procure more BTC.

Description:
This loan is to hold and/or use BTC for on-demand needs for my projects, such as OzCoin, CrownCloud, etc.
This loan is not tied to the success or failure of any business.
This loan should not be defaulted on unless personal bankruptcy is officially declared.
Consider it a personal loan.

You can request refund of the loan at face value anytime.
Redeeming bonds may take some time to liquidate positions or procure more BTC if no liquid BTC is available.

[ru0chen]

With the price plummeting like it is can only benefit lenders... I think that caused a lot of the issues, the price of btc skyrocketed, could be wrong. I, too have been screwed over by something similar...

I think the original problems for Graet goes back to when his mining pool had some bug in its payoutscript 2013 and they payed out 900? btc to much.

Then his loan on BF for 2 000 btc was as far as i understand partly used to pay back people that first loaned him the 900 btc that he was short and i think a large part of the remaining around 1100 btc was probably invested in btcstocks, when the two bitcoin stock exchanges btct.co and bitfunder had to close business many of his stocks lost a lot of value as i understand it, a 500-600 btc(50/60%) loss i think it was that graet himself mentioned, what happened to the remaining around 500 btc stock values after the initial big drop i have no ide.

His miningpool havent come back to the levels it was at back in the earlier mining days but it was doing pretty good for the months aug and sept this year when avalon pointed 1/2 there miners at his pools but it looks like avalon has left his pool some weeks ago, no ide why that is the case.

The lower price of bitcoin that we have seen recently should of course be a great time for graet to move some IRL assets into BTC if he wants to clear a large part of his btcloan debt, the mentioned 200 000 dollars would have bought around 667 BTC @ 300 usd/btc and if he had a buyorder at btc-e back earlier this year when it dropped down to even lower level he could possibly have BTC assets of well over 1000 btc, maby even over 1500 btc(if he managed to save the remaining 500 btc stockassets from btct.co/Bitfunder) by now, but i guess its a matter on how he have prioriticed things and what actions he has taken to fix his BTC debt problem.

does your meaning is graet is still have ability to repay the debt?

[thy]

With the price plummeting like it is can only benefit lenders... I think that caused a lot of the issues, the price of btc skyrocketed, could be wrong. I, too have been screwed over by something similar...

I think the original problems for Graet goes back to when his mining pool had some bug in its payoutscript 2013 and they payed out 900? btc to much.

Then his loan on BF for 2 000 btc was as far as i understand partly used to pay back people that first loaned him the 900 btc that he was short and i think a large part of the remaining around 1100 btc was probably invested in btcstocks, when the two bitcoin stock exchanges btct.co and bitfunder had to close business many of his stocks lost a lot of value as i understand it, a 500-600 btc(50/60%) loss i think it was that graet himself mentioned, what happened to the remaining around 500 btc stock values after the initial big drop i have no ide.

His miningpool havent come back to the levels it was at back in the earlier mining days but it was doing pretty good for the months aug and sept this year when avalon pointed 1/2 there miners at his pools but it looks like avalon has left his pool some weeks ago, no ide why that is the case.

The lower price of bitcoin that we have seen recently should of course be a great time for graet to move some IRL assets into BTC if he wants to clear a large part of his btcloan debt, the mentioned 200 000 dollars would have bought around 667 BTC @ 300 usd/btc and if he had a buyorder at btc-e back earlier this year when it dropped down to even lower level he could possibly have BTC assets of well over 1000 btc, maby even over 1500 btc(if he managed to save the remaining 500 btc stockassets from btct.co/Bitfunder) by now, but i guess its a matter on how he have prioriticed things and what actions he has taken to fix his BTC debt problem.

does your meaning is graet is still have ability to repay the debt?

Depending on what actions Graet has taken the last year when it has been very little heard from him, he should at least be in a position to repay a large part of his debts if/when he wants to.

The 200 000$ fiat assets that was mentioned that he had a year ago has on a number of occations when the price has dropped on specific exchanges or in general to the 350/300/250 or even 200 usd/btc level in the last years time, it has been possible to buy between 570 and 1000 btc with.

If he managed to save some of the 500 btc stocks values he had after the stockexchange crashed 2013 or even increase it since then he may have 500-1000 btc more from that.

Recently, in August/September his miningpool had incomes of over 80 btc, as he dident pay out the 1% / <20 btc that he promised to do back then one wounders what else he did with those 80 btc, if he saw the coming drop and moved it to fiat at that 650 usd/BTC level and rebought later at 300/350 usd/btc those 80 btc alone could be doubled to 160 btc by now.

If he actively have been trading on the market or invested his fiat/BTC assets wisely he could of course have profited several hundreds BTC or even in the region of thousend(s) BTC since a year ago to.


So all in all it wouldent be unresonable to think that Graet very well can have btc assets in the regions of 1000-3000 btc by now if he have actively been trying to gain more btc the last year. If that is the case it would then be the equivalent of 51.5% - 154.6% of the 1940,06 btc his debt was almost a year ago when he stopped paying dividends on the Bitfunder platform the stock then was listed at.

[smoothie]

Still no progress on this?

[glendall]

Nope, money still stolen, like it has been for awhile and will continue to be. Well besides the possibility of that 1% chance of getting the 1% payment.

[smoothie]

Nope, money still stolen, like it has been for awhile and will continue to be. Well besides the possibility of that 1% chance of getting the 1% payment.

Isn't his real life information public? Or no?

Seems like a lot of money for people to just forget about without trying some recourse.

[rudrigorc2]

ozcoin is no longer hashing.
graet apparently gave up his account here, that tells enough.

[lunarboy]

Is anyone taking legal action here? 

[Bananery]

Hi folks,
Apologies for not responding earlier, been very busy plus trying to work out the best way to manage graet.loan with the changes at BitFunder. My initial hope had was to find a larger investor that could buy graet.loan from US based lenders and continue on BitFunder, BitFunder announcing it will close made that harder.

Timing in BitcoinWorld seems to be an important thing, the forums were down for days, came back, I went on a family vacation and a few hours after I left changes at BitFunder were announced, by the time I got home my portfolio had lost > 60% BTC value and I had a large number of redeem requests. In the past I have been able to fulfill redeem requests quickly but I do not have the liquidity to pay out many requests at once. The loan was mainly used to consolidate multiple smaller loans and to be able to use a central management system to pay interest, also in the past when possible I have bought back graet.loan on the market, not all 200,000 issued are still in circulation.

I still consider graet.loan to be a loan and intend to continue to pay interest and to buy back as I am able.

Best wishes
Graet

Here is an old message. Graeme admits he gambled with creditors coins by buying some unregulated securities.

[ortsi]

Is anyone taking legal action here? 

I'm not taking legal action, but will be willing to pay 5% of the loan to legal expenses (which is 0.75 BTC in my case). I believe this should be more than enough to cover the initial legal expenses, assuming the BTC price doesn't fall dramatically, and half of the lenders take part (the calculation: total loan * percent for legal action * percent of participants = 2000 * 0.05 * 0.5 = 100 BTC ~ 27,000 USD ).

I suggest 15% of that to go to the (reputable) member in charge of administrating the lawsuit. Unfortunately, I don't have the reputation to do that.

If you're willing to be responsible of such a lawsuit, please reply to this comment and mention if you have relevant experience / qualifications.

Also reply to this comment if you're willing to take part in such a lawsuit, and pay 5% of your loan for the expenses.

Thanks!

[shitfanleaks]

Let's join forces and everyone affected by Graet/Ukyo loans/Weexchange/Bitfunder fiascos come together and sue these criminals.
More than enough people affected to put a few bucks to get a lawsuit going against Weexchange/Bitfunder criminal actions and fraudulent assets.
There is a very, very high probability of getting both Graet and Jon Montroll aka Ukyo in jail and getting back the largest possible amounts from these fraudsters.
As owners/operators of Weexchange and Bitfunder plus sellers of fraudulent assets/loans Jon Montroll and Graet are full of shit and will be easily convicted and damned up to their shity asses.

[shitfanleaks]

https://i.imgur.com/ltkSk0X.jpg

We do not forget. We do not forgive.

[ru0chen]

Quote from: lunarboy on January 08, 2015, 12:35:25 PM
Is anyone taking legal action here?  Huh

I'm not taking legal action, but will be willing to pay 5% of the loan to legal expenses (which is 0.75 BTC in my case). I believe this should be more than enough to cover the initial legal expenses, assuming the BTC price doesn't fall dramatically, and half of the lenders take part (the calculation: total loan * percent for legal action * percent of participants = 2000 * 0.05 * 0.5 = 100 BTC ~ 27,000 USD ).

I suggest 15% of that to go to the (reputable) member in charge of administrating the lawsuit. Unfortunately, I don't have the reputation to do that.

If you're willing to be responsible of such a lawsuit, please reply to this comment and mention if you have relevant experience / qualifications.

Also reply to this comment if you're willing to take part in such a lawsuit, and pay 5% of your loan for the expenses.

Thanks!

-------------------
yes , I want to take part in this lawsuit! I willing to pay 5% of the loan which is 9.15BTC

[ru0chen]

It seems that I am the only one continue watching this post

[ADgordo]

It seems that I am the only one continue watching this post

you are not alone.

[rudrigorc2]

graet is everyday at #ozcoin@irc.freenode.net

[picolo]

Loan to Graet (Graeme Tee)
https://bitfunder.com/asset/Graet.Loan

References:
http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=Graet
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=108716.0
Owns and runs Ozcoin Pooled Mining Pty Ltd and CrownCloud.net
Australian Director WeExchange Australia Pty Ltd

Interest:
- Shares shall pay an interest of 0.05% daily.

Shares value:
- A maximum of 200,000 shares will be issued
- Shares have a face value of 0.01 BTC
- Shares retain a minimum of $0.1 USD value each.

Should any event make Bitcoins become valued at less than $1 USD per Bitcoin or impossible to be transacted, you may request to redeem your shares for $0.1 USD instead.

Redeeming Shares:
- Shares can be redeemed at face value anytime upon request.
- Redeeming shares may take some time to liquidate positions or procure more BTC.

Description:
This loan is to hold and/or use BTC for on-demand needs for my projects, such as OzCoin, CrownCloud, etc.
This loan is not tied to the success or failure of any business.
This loan should not be defaulted on unless personal bankruptcy is officially declared.
Consider it a personal loan.

You can request refund of the loan at face value anytime.
Redeeming bonds may take some time to liquidate positions or procure more BTC if no liquid BTC is available.

18.5%/year, in bitcoins!

[btcminer021]

Is this thing on?

[thy]

graet is everyday at #ozcoin@irc.freenode.net

Thats interesting but why on earth dosent he communicate with his lenders here and/or throu emails and why hasent he payed a single satoushi in interest on his loan for over a year now, the 20 btc(1% interest) he said he was going to pay back in august isent a huge amount, about 4-5 000 usd in current btcprice but it would have been a step in the right direction and would have shown that his intentions were good at least.
Putting your head in the sand and hide isent the solution Great, come back to the forum as soon as possible and explain whats going on and make the promised payments.

[picolo]

graet is everyday at #ozcoin@irc.freenode.net

Thats interesting but why on earth dosent he communicate with his lenders here and/or throu emails and why hasent he payed a single satoushi in interest on his loan for over a year now, the 20 btc(1% interest) he said he was going to pay back in august isent a huge amount, about 4-5 000 usd in current btcprice but it would have been a step in the right direction and would have shown that his intentions were good at least.
Putting your head in the sand and hide isent the solution Great, come back to the forum as soon as possible and explain whats going on and make the promised payments.

A loan in BTC when the price of BTC went down is not hard to pay back with a relatively small 18% interest/year

[shitfanleaks]

https://i.imgur.com/ltkSk0X.jpg

We do not forget. We do not forgive.
Eat shit Jon Montroll! Criminal and fraudster!

Watch out Graet, we are legion.

[Blazed]

We do not forget. We do not forgive.
Eat shit Jon Montrol! Criminal and fraudster!

Watch out Graet, we are legion.

Has your legion done a single thing about it? Have you guys started a lawsuit yet?

[Spincycle]

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/catch-scammer-thief-earn-bitcoins-process/

CATCH A SCAMMER OR THIEF AND EARN BITCOINS IN THE PROCESS
 
As you may remember, Roger Ver and other large Bitcoin holders were targeted last year by attackers and extortionists. Rather than capitulate and pay the ransom for the return of his hacked e-mail account, Ver created a website, BitcoinBountyHunter.com, to issue a bounty on his attacker as well as allow others to create bounties.

[btct22]

Is this the same guy ?  https://whoisology.com/email/archive_8/jon.montroll@coldrack.com   ??  it can't be that hard to find him if he works for this company?

[Hippie Tech]

How much of your BTC can be accounted for by simply looking at his trust rating ?

Ozcoin's main thread --> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=14085.msg10595056#msg10595056

edit

As you can see, organofcorti didn't like where I was going with this.

[j.jaymes]

Seems hes 'legendary VIP' after all. Good luck to everone involved with this.

[shitfanleaks]

We do not forget. We do not forgive.
Eat shit Jon Montrol! Criminal and fraudster!

Watch out Graet, we are legion.

Has your legion done a single thing about it? Have you guys started a lawsuit yet?

Yes, we are "doing things". Rest assured, he will pay.
Expect us!

[shitfanleaks]

Is this the same guy ?  https://whoisology.com/email/archive_8/jon.montroll@coldrack.com   ??  it can't be that hard to find him if he works for this company?

Yes, it's the same guy.
He is under watch. He is being followed. He is a target.
He does not know but he is already paying.
We do not forget. We do not forgive. Expect us!

[shitfanleaks]

https://i.imgur.com/ltkSk0X.jpg

We do not forget. We do not forgive.
Eat shit Jon Montroll! Criminal and fraudster!

Watch out Graet, we are legion. Expect us!

[ru0chen]

Putting your head in the sand and hide isent the solution Great, come back to the forum as soon as possible and explain whats going on and make the promised payments.

[Hippie Tech]

This thread gives new meaning to the term, "controlled opposition".

I show evidence that Graet was selling the loaned Bitcoins and everyone decides to stfu. hmmm

Seeing as organofcorti is unwilling to provide us with the TXid, I guess I'll have to go looking for any juicy looking transactions from that time period myself... a bit later.. when I have time..

@HippieTech seriously? again? 

He's the dank of the mining board.

Talk about the wolf guarding the henhouse.



How much is notsoGraet paying you to kiss his fat scammer ass ?

Do you have any proof of this asserted labro-gluteal contact?

Deny.. deny.. deny. That is what scammers and their supporters do so well.

Do you feel the least bit of compassion or remorse for everyone that has been ripped off by this ingrate ?

You call me a scammer, and yet you totally made up a story about me and Graet sharing intimate contact! Pots and kettles.

With you being one of his staunchest supporters, I'm surprised to hear you say that.

Did I miss your blog's expose on any of his misgivings ? lol

Did he sell you some the DGM surplus or some of his Bitfunder loans ? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=218324.0

Clearly you have no proof of a financial or intimate relationship between me and graet, you are simply, for some reason, posting ad-hominem attacks. So let me return the favour:

When will you return all the money you scammed?

Your statement, "traded fiat for BTC", kinda gave it away.

Now lets see the TXid code.

notsoGraet's trust rating
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=17548

Hours before you posted about your 50 BTC transaction with notsoGreat, lenny_55 had this to say. "Stolen money in Great.Loan asset on BitFunder. Please be careful before trading with him!"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy#Honor_by_association

The logical inverse of "guilt by association" is honor by association, where one claims that someone or something must be reputable because of the people or organizations that are related to it or otherwise support it.

This web of fake trust will not be fooling people for much longer.

[ru0chen]

Graet, can you dare to come back and read again what you ever wrote in here?

[vapourminer]

Graet, can you dare to come back and read again what you ever wrote in here?

I had put btc to his loan but pulled it when THINGS started to happen. i put a decent amount of hash  at his pool too. had his wiget  on my desktop and such

graet what happened??? i supported you..

[julz]

Graeme ignored my offer to meet with him last year in Perth to discuss the matter.

I believe there is no money to be had at this time - but if the mtgox administrators actually return some percentage of the BTC - there may be enough to warrant chasing him through legal channels.

If/when the mtgox insolvency is wound up - I'd be interested in pursing this by pushing Graeme Tee to either reach an agreement - or declare bankruptcy.

[Temo58]

I think it's just to cover his ass so that when this ship sinks and people chase him, he'll be able to say he continued to pay divs via bitfunder as per the agreement and that if you have any problems, you need to take it up with them, not him.

[ru0chen]

Don't know wether scammer are still causing harm to the world, and don't know wether  good people will receive good rewards.
Ten years have passed, am I the only one still concerned about this matter?  ru0chen@qq.com

[aliveNFT]

Don't know wether scammer are still causing harm to the world, and don't know wether  good people will receive good rewards.
Ten years have passed, am I the only one still concerned about this matter?  ru0chen@qq.com

I've reread everything and I understand why you're still here. I'm sorry that you lost a lot of money, I hope that he will be rewarded for it.

[OgNasty]

Don't know wether scammer are still causing harm to the world, and don't know wether  good people will receive good rewards.
Ten years have passed, am I the only one still concerned about this matter?  ru0chen@qq.com

I've reread everything and I understand why you're still here. I'm sorry that you lost a lot of money, I hope that he will be rewarded for it.

This post makes me think perhaps there is a chance that some of the lenders could receive SOMETHING.

I believe there is no money to be had at this time - but if the mtgox administrators actually return some percentage of the BTC - there may be enough to warrant chasing him through legal channels.

If/when the mtgox insolvency is wound up - I'd be interested in pursing this by pushing Graeme Tee to either reach an agreement - or declare bankruptcy.

Is there more information on how much money Jon had in mtgox?  Now that distribution is soon to be on the way, this is something that should be looked at again.  So much money was scammed through these fundraising sites early on.  It would be absolutely amazing to get something back.  It's been so long though, does anyone even have the owner's list of who is still owed money?  I think it might even be public somewhere, but it's been years...  As an investor in this project at one point in time, I'm curious to know if anyone is still investigating this.  With all the heat my project gets for continuing on after the collapse of these sites, it amazes me how those who just scammed and ran got away clean.