Liberty Reserve shutdown is a boost for Bitcoin?

[MonadTran]

Best case scenario for Bitcoin is that MtGox is working with US feds to identify SR vendors, and announce a mass bust of them.  This would mean that the feds are working _with_ the exchanges to identify lawbreakers, rather than trying to shut down the whole damn thing like they did with SR.  No one likes the strict MtGox AML rules, but that might be the difference between the exchanges getting shut down LR style, and being allowed to exist by the Feds. 

Why would the US government want to crack down on SR?
I don't think they care too much about who's smoking what. What they do care about is their own power. People leaving the dollar is a threat to their power, so they are going to try and make it hard for people to leave the dollar. Terrorism & drugs are actually good for those in power, since they can profit from fighting them. So, no, the exchanges are gonna be targeted anyway, compliance or no compliance.
The good thing is, they probably can't do too much about the exchanges in Russia / China / Argentina / other areas not quite entirely under their control. Another good thing is, they have other issues apart from fighting Bitcoin, and any new war is going to speed up the incoming collapse.

[samson]

Not sure if it is a plus or a minus.  There is a lot of room for competition, but if they are guilty of something bad enough, maybe it is good that they are stopped?  Bitcoin and all the other alternative currencies put together are still a very very small fraction of the marketplace.

But even if they are being stopped for cause, there are innocent people whose funds are now frozen. Should I be punished just because my neighbor does something bad?

Liberty reserve was always the shadiest of the shady. The VERY shadiest. INCREDIBLY EASY to move money anonymously and frankly, prime pickings for this. At some point, I become less able to sympathize with people who trust their money to those they don't research. If one stopped to look at how money moves through LR, it was clear to see that it was built for laundering money. If one is cool with that -- fine -- if not... probably should have done some sniffing around.

Well get ready because I'm pretty sure that a lot of that shady business is now heading directly towards Bitcoin which will make it a real target.

[CurbsideProphet]

If you have not heard the news yet, Liberty Reserve has been shut down http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22680297

This is bullish news for Bitcoins. Not only is there now one less competitor to bitcoins, but this shows one more time why a decentralized payment network is much more resilient than a centralized one. This also shows how aggressive governments can be, so it is even more important to have your money in a place you control, one which will not get shut down by police.

Is this as big as the Cyprus thing? No, because it affects fewer people, but it is just one more thing in a long line of acts which the government is doing which will ultimately push people into using Bitcoins.

Not fewer people dude, too many. Total 6 billion dollars got seized and yes people will move to bitcoin for sure.

http://www.justice.gov/usao/nys/pressreleases/May13/LibertyReserveetalDocuments.php

$6 billion didn't get seized, that's the estimated amount of transactions they're being accused of laundering since 2006.

[flavius]

LR was almost nonexistent on the shady side of the internet. It's a hassle to get, and a hassle to turn into bitcoin. For them to affect crime in any substantial way they have to shut down virtually every currency that has an exchange that lets you withdrawal to Poland. The anonymous polish cards are what makes crime happen, it enables the bitcoins they earn to be worth something while staying anon. Otherwise, they have to mostly use their own bank accounts, and with the gigantic sums of money traded, won't fly.

Shutting down bitcoin would at least slow silk road down immensely while they converted to litecoin or something, but unlike with LR, legitimate people have hundreds of thousands of dollars invested into bitcoin. I wrote an essay that persuaded my teacher to buy some.

Plus, I think we all realize how near impossible it is to shut down. If they wanted to do any damage they would contact the two banks in Poland offering the cards and remove those. I have $50,000 worth of bitcoins that I have no intentions of paying taxes on, somehow I doubt localbitcoin will work for that much. It could take months to move all of that, with 10% fees potentially.

[MonadTran]

Well get ready because I'm pretty sure that a lot of that shady business is now heading directly towards Bitcoin which will make it a real target.

"Fighting" the "shady" businesses is mostly a cover-up for increased spending, which allows certain people to profit.
Bitcoin is, potentially, a real threat (though some people in government might view it as an investment vehicle - who knows?).
So, no, shady businesses won't change anything in government's attitude.

[keewee]

If you have not heard the news yet, Liberty Reserve has been shut down http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22680297

This is bullish news for Bitcoins. Not only is there now one less competitor to bitcoins, but this shows one more time why a decentralized payment network is much more resilient than a centralized one. This also shows how aggressive governments can be, so it is even more important to have your money in a place you control, one which will not get shut down by police.

Is this as big as the Cyprus thing? No, because it affects fewer people, but it is just one more thing in a long line of acts which the government is doing which will ultimately push people into using Bitcoins.

Not fewer people dude, too many. Total 6 billion dollars got seized and yes people will move to bitcoin for sure.

http://www.justice.gov/usao/nys/pressreleases/May13/LibertyReserveetalDocuments.php

$6 billion didn't get seized, that's the estimated amount of transactions they're being accused of laundering since 2006.

The indictment states that "a sum of money of at least $6 billion" will be forfeited (plus amounts in many other accounts)

[samson]

Hmm, this story just keeps getting bigger

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/it-pro/security-it/westpac-caught-up-in-worlds-biggest-money-laundering-sting-20130529-2naa8.html?google_editors_picks=true

According to the indictment, three Westpac accounts held in the name of Technocash Ltd contained $US36.9 million ($A38.4 million).

[srg007007]

RE:  US companies are banned from accepting bitcoin as payment

I think that would require statutory action - a new law.  I don't know what authority regulators would have otherwise.

BTW, it seems overreaching to shut down a payment system because someone does something illegal with it.  By that logic, the secret service should go after the U.S. treasury for printing paper bills... because, there's a lot of illegal commerce done using U.S. paper dollars.

[CurbsideProphet]

If you have not heard the news yet, Liberty Reserve has been shut down http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22680297

This is bullish news for Bitcoins. Not only is there now one less competitor to bitcoins, but this shows one more time why a decentralized payment network is much more resilient than a centralized one. This also shows how aggressive governments can be, so it is even more important to have your money in a place you control, one which will not get shut down by police.

Is this as big as the Cyprus thing? No, because it affects fewer people, but it is just one more thing in a long line of acts which the government is doing which will ultimately push people into using Bitcoins.

Not fewer people dude, too many. Total 6 billion dollars got seized and yes people will move to bitcoin for sure.

http://www.justice.gov/usao/nys/pressreleases/May13/LibertyReserveetalDocuments.php

$6 billion didn't get seized, that's the estimated amount of transactions they're being accused of laundering since 2006.

The indictment states that "a sum of money of at least $6 billion" will be forfeited (plus amounts in many other accounts)

It's a blanket statement to seize all of their funds commensurate with the amount allegedly to have been laundered.  LR doesn't have $6 billion in funds stashed in some account (or in aggregate).

Liberty Reserve, with around 12 million transactions per year, laundered over $6 billion in criminal proceeds since it began operating in 2006, the indictment said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/28/net-us-cybercrime-libertyreserve-charges-idUSBRE94R0KQ20130528

[Cluster2k]

Bitcoin used to be funded with a lot of funds from LR

I used LR a couple of years ago to transfer money between MtGox and another account.  The site always seemed a little dodgy in that no customer information was required.  Glad I pulled everything out years ago.

It's a shame how the whole business was seized without any warning from the authorities.

What kind of warning should be given?  'Guys, we're going to shut you down next week, but we don't expect any criminals and regular customers to clean out their accounts in the meantime.  Shady Operator, you have a few days to flee before we look for you'

[samson]

This appears to be hitting the mainstream press now :

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/05/28/why-bitcoin-enthusiasts-should-pay-attention-to-liberty-reserves-shuttering/

[bitarrow]

ive been saying this. LR was huge in the underground world. Those transactions are going to go somewhere. PerfectMoney will take a big chunk of them. But with PerfectMoney saying NO to americans opening accounts then Bitcoin is the only alternative. As people figure this out and send their money in we will see a rise for sure IMO.

[flavius]

ive been saying this. LR was huge in the underground world. Those transactions are going to go somewhere. PerfectMoney will take a big chunk of them. But with PerfectMoney saying NO to americans opening accounts then Bitcoin is the only alternative. As people figure this out and send their money in we will see a rise for sure IMO.

No it wasn't, lol. It was used seldom, not even 1% of the bitcoin transactions. People withdrawal to the anon polish cards, not their own bank accounts.

[BitcoinAshley]

Fortunately, the tards who think government regulation of bitcoin exchanges/businesses/etc will "crush" bitcoin to nothingness, are in the minority. Were they even a significant portion of holders, price would have CRASHED to sub-$100 on the LR news.

What, are we so misinformed as to think that making it HARDER TO GET bitcoins will reduce DEMAND? I'll tell you what; it will have a CONCRETE effect on SUPPLY. It might make certain types of people more afraid to use bitcoin but it's virtually impossible to shut down the protocol/network so for that reason it will flourish. The only concrete effect we can determine from regulation is that it will reduce supply, and we all know how that works.

Drugs - government intervened, regulated, prices and popularity went up
Prohibition - prices went up
AK-47 - illegal where I live; price to get one is much,much higher than it is in jurisdictions where it is legal. But some of you would think that the regulation would make the AK-47 less desirable - because you are errantly assuming that reduced supply automatically leads to reduced demand which is not the case in most situations involving government intervention.
BITTORRENT - decentralized protocol; even has a weak front-end like bitcoin (websites/centralized infrastructure that offer .torrent downloads), government completely impotent and unable to do anything; torrents wildly increase in popularity despite illegality and risk of massive fines/imprisonment.

BITCOIN ("nah this time is inexplicably different, government intervention/regulation will cause price and popularity to go DOWN, here is some illogical FUD to support my position") 

[mgio]

RE:  US companies are banned from accepting bitcoin as payment

I think that would require statutory action - a new law.  I don't know what authority regulators would have otherwise.

BTW, it seems overreaching to shut down a payment system because someone does something illegal with it.  By that logic, the secret service should go after the U.S. treasury for printing paper bills... because, there's a lot of illegal commerce done using U.S. paper dollars.

Who said the government had to be logical? They aren't going to make computers illegal either just because they are used to pirate music and movies.


Look what happened to Liberty Dollars. They weren't even really breaking any laws but the founder was made out to be a domestic terrorist.

There are already laws on the books that prohibit creating a currency that competes with the dollar. The gov just has to decide that those laws apply to bitcoin.

I think there was a case about a pizza place near the Mexican border that decided to accept pesos instead of dollar and they quickly put a stop to that.


My big fear with bitcoin is that it is pretty much impossible for it to actually be used legally. When you buy that gyft card with bitcoins, do you declare the appreciation of the coins relative to when you bought them to the IRS? I'm willing to bet most people don't, but you are supposed to. And there is no way to enforce because bitcoins are anonymous. The govt is going to become more upset that they aren't getting their cut as bitcoin grows and will start to cause more and more problems for us. I don't see any easy way around it.

[mgio]

Fortunately, the tards who think government regulation of bitcoin exchanges/businesses/etc will "crush" bitcoin to nothingness, are in the minority. Were they even a significant portion of holders, price would have CRASHED to sub-$100 on the LR news.

What, are we so misinformed as to think that making it HARDER TO GET bitcoins will reduce DEMAND? I'll tell you what; it will have a CONCRETE effect on SUPPLY. It might make certain types of people more afraid to use bitcoin but it's virtually impossible to shut down the protocol/network so for that reason it will flourish. The only concrete effect we can determine from regulation is that it will reduce supply, and we all know how that works.

Drugs - government intervened, regulated, prices and popularity went up
Prohibition - prices went up
AK-47 - illegal where I live; price to get one is much,much higher than it is in jurisdictions where it is legal. But some of you would think that the regulation would make the AK-47 less desirable - because you are errantly assuming that reduced supply automatically leads to reduced demand which is not the case in most situations involving government intervention.
BITTORRENT - decentralized protocol; even has a weak front-end like bitcoin (websites/centralized infrastructure that offer .torrent downloads), government completely impotent and unable to do anything; torrents wildly increase in popularity despite illegality and risk of massive fines/imprisonment.

BITCOIN ("nah this time is inexplicably different, government intervention/regulation will cause price and popularity to go DOWN, here is some illogical FUD to support my position") 

All of those have an inherent value outside of their market price. Bitcoins only value is it's use as a currency. If it is harder to exchange your dollars for bitcoins, it is less useful as a currency and thus it's price will drop.

The point is, demand WILL drop. The LR announcement might not scare that many present investors off but it definitely will scare some potential investors. And serious govt crackdown on bitcoin will scare current investors, pretty much all of which are speculators off. SUPPLY will continue to go up too, considering more bitcoins are mined every day. Limiting access to exchanges willl reduce volume, but people won't be able to either buy or sell bitcoins so it won't make the supply change at all.

[NewLiberty]

...if they are guilty of something bad enough, maybe it is good that they are stopped?

They are guilty of NOT being Obedient Snitches.
A grave sin in the eyes of the Government and some commenters on this thread...

I don't claim to know what they are guilty of, if anything, and quite surprised if you do.  I am merely looking at what is alleged.  The US has a 4th Amendment which offers privacy protections against unreasonable search and seizure.  Not being qualified at all to judge whether this constitutes a reasonable search or not, I merely offer that IF what is alleged is accurate, willful complicity with ongoing criminal activity, then a little sunshine might disinfect.  I don't know the answer to what is happening to them and don't see it as a good thing on any level.  If it is true, I have done enough work for RAINN.org charity to understand the damage that child pornography can cause to victims, and would be very OK to have a good bit less of that happening.

For those of us who do not commit crimes with Bitcoins and use them for the fostering of legitimate business activity, and pay our taxes, and etc.  The accountability features of Bitcoins are more advantageous than the potential anonymity features.  Your mileage may vary.

I may not agree with all the laws, but I still must abide by them.
Fortunately, being very careful to not be engaging in any criminal activity allows for a good defense against probable cause for search, and so also protects my customers from this sort of seizure.  Like it or not, white market operations are bulk of the future of Bitcoin, if it is going to have a future.  If you sleep with dogs, you had better have a pretty damn good flea collar.  

I am also not one that is rooting for any systemic collapse of any economy.  The resulting human suffering is not worth ANY amount of personal gain I may have through my own economic resilience.  Big changes have big social cost and strain the ethical tolerance of the people that suffer under those changes.  Who want's to rule the ashes of a fallen society?  I would much rather see our little experiment continue, thrive and grow.  The more it is used for good, the better chance that has of happening.

AND, Bitcoin is such a good.  Technologies such as this that create common interests among people across government borders is one of the factors that helps prevent war and conflict between the governments that hold power.  People don't start wars, governments do.  So when there are people doing mutually beneficial business with those across borders, they can each put influences on their respective governments to NOT engage in hostilities and have a built in incentive to do just that.

[Coinseeker]

This is VERY bad for Bitcoin but also another fully telegraphed warning shot across the Bitcoin bow.  Comply or die.  It's really that simple.  The USG doesn't have to shut down Bitcoin, so please spare me the Bitcoin bible thumping.  The USG has once again proved that it can seize any bank account, nearly anywhere in the world and turn out the lights of any exchange at any time.  They can block the flow of money from US banks as easy as turning off a light switch.  And as you see, they are going to get the cooperation of most world nations.

Submit immediately to regulations is the message.  Comply or die is the ultimatum.  They are not joking, they do not bluff, this is not FUD.  This is reality.  

[TimJBenham]

If you have not heard the news yet, Liberty Reserve has been shut down http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22680297

This is bullish news for Bitcoins. Not only is there now one less competitor to bitcoins, but this shows one more time why a decentralized payment network is much more resilient than a centralized one. This also shows how aggressive governments can be, so it is even more important to have your money in a place you control, one which will not get shut down by police.

That assumes everyone shares your faith in bitcoin's indestructibility. They don't. I see many posts here and elsewhere nervously asking whether "bitcoin is safe" in the wake of the LR bust.

[NewLiberty]

Look what happened to Liberty Dollars. They weren't even really breaking any laws but the founder was made out to be a domestic terrorist.

There are already laws on the books that prohibit creating a currency that competes with the dollar. The gov just has to decide that those laws apply to bitcoin.

I think there was a case about a pizza place near the Mexican border that decided to accept pesos instead of dollar and they quickly put a stop to that.

My big fear with bitcoin is that it is pretty much impossible for it to actually be used legally. When you buy that gyft card with bitcoins, do you declare the appreciation of the coins relative to when you bought them to the IRS? I'm willing to bet most people don't, but you are supposed to. And there is no way to enforce because bitcoins are anonymous. The govt is going to become more upset that they aren't getting their cut as bitcoin grows and will start to cause more and more problems for us. I don't see any easy way around it.

You are correct that the Liberty Dollar was not illegal, and yet has caused much trouble for those that were involved.  I believe the Liberty Dollar case will prevail in the end (remember that BVNH has yet to be sentenced after more than two years).  Nevertheless, it remains a cautionary tale.  That case is fundamental to how and why I have to operate in the way that I do with offering the NEW LIBERTY DOLLAR.  It took a very deep study of that case, reading all the testimony and evidence, and LOTs of lawyer time.  
The laws on the books prevent STATES from issuing competing currencies.  They do not prevent barter, or the Article 1 right to contract.
Bitcoin is really very easy to use legally.  All the accounting is kept for you in perpetuity in the block chain and this provides legitimate business with the best backup of irrefutable accounting records yet devised.
So yes, you can declare the income from appreciation when sold, just like you might do for a stock sale.  
There can be some very easy ways around the problems.  I predict that as it grows it will become much easier to comply with the basic laws, addons to accounting software to automatically pull your records from the block chain and do your taxes more easily than ever before.  I am almost surprised that it hasn't already been done.  It would be a quick programming job and would benefit the community tremendously, and the programming team tremendously x2.