Start Using mBTC as Standard Denomination?

[jgm]

Please rather consider XBT for reasons elaborated here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=220761.msg2326526#msg2326526

Although the most sensible solution long-term, it does cause issues with the current exchange rate.  Even the cheapest items will be quoted in hundreds of thousands of XBT, and the exchange rate itself doesn't look quite so appealing when it's 0.000129$/XBT.

I don't see why people can't just use the units that are most appropriate to the denomination.  Use 150mBTC rather than 0.15BTC; use 20MBTC rather than 20000000BTC; use 24XBT (or 24uBTC) rather than 0.000024BTC.  Is it so hard?

[Razick]

I don't see why people can't just use the units that are most appropriate to the denomination.  Use 150mBTC rather than 0.15BTC; use 20MBTC rather than 20000000BTC; use 24XBT (or 24uBTC) rather than 0.000024BTC.  Is it so hard?

For people who want to use Bitcoin as a currency instead of a hobby, yes, it's too complicated.

Milk = mBTC15
Expensive wine = BTC0.99
Basic Membership = uBTC 999
Silver Membership = mBTC 9.99
Enterprise Membership = BTC 9.99

[grau]

Please rather consider XBT for reasons elaborated here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=220761.msg2326526#msg2326526

Although the most sensible solution long-term, it does cause issues with the current exchange rate.  Even the cheapest items will be quoted in hundreds of thousands of XBT, and the exchange rate itself doesn't look quite so appealing when it's 0.000129$/XBT.

I don't see why people can't just use the units that are most appropriate to the denomination.  Use 150mBTC rather than 0.15BTC; use 20MBTC rather than 20000000BTC; use 24XBT (or 24uBTC) rather than 0.000024BTC.  Is it so hard?

A dollar is 7,700 XBT at the moment. The dust limit is 54 XBT. Therefore XBT covers quite well the micropayment range and the commas make it easier to read then 0.0077 - 0.000054 BTC. Reading mBTC out of XBT is also easy 7,700 XBT = 7.7 mBTC.

For higher sums 123,456,789 XBT is 123.456789 BTC also easy.

I think people generally more used to deal with big numbers than with small fractions.

[Razick]

Please rather consider XBT for reasons elaborated here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=220761.msg2326526#msg2326526

Although the most sensible solution long-term, it does cause issues with the current exchange rate.  Even the cheapest items will be quoted in hundreds of thousands of XBT, and the exchange rate itself doesn't look quite so appealing when it's 0.000129$/XBT.

I don't see why people can't just use the units that are most appropriate to the denomination.  Use 150mBTC rather than 0.15BTC; use 20MBTC rather than 20000000BTC; use 24XBT (or 24uBTC) rather than 0.000024BTC.  Is it so hard?

A dollar is 7,700 XBT at the moment. The dust limit is 54 XBT. Therefore XBT covers quite well the micropayment range and the commas make it easier to read then 0.0077 - 0.000054 BTC. Reading mBTC out of XBT is also easy 7,700 XBT = 7.7 mBTC.

For higher sums 123,456,789 XBT is 123.456789 BTC also easy.

I think people generally more used to deal with big numbers than with small fractions.

According to the thread an XBT (shouldn't it be XBC?) is a millibitcoin, not a microbitcoin.

[jgm]

For people who want to use Bitcoin as a currency instead of a hobby, yes, it's too complicated.

Milk = mBTC15
Expensive wine = BTC0.99
Basic Membership = uBTC 999
Silver Membership = mBTC 9.99
Enterprise Membership = BTC 9.99

More likely:

Milk = mBTC15
Expensive wine = BTC0.99
Basic Membership = mBTC 1 (let's be realistic about this one)
Silver Membership = mBTC 10
Enterprise Membership = mBTC 10000 (assuming that a 1000x increase is again reasonable)

In the same way:

Milk = 99c
Expensive wine = $99
Basic membership = $1,000
Silver membership = $10,000
Enterprise membership = $10M

The reality is that people deal with different denominations all the time, just not usually at the same time.  If all your groceries are in the mBTC range then they'll all be priced using that range.  In the meantime all of the houses for sale will probably be in the kBTC range so will all be priced in that range.

A dollar is 7,700 XBT at the moment. The dust limit is 54 XBT. Therefore XBT covers quite well the micropayment range and the commas make it easier to read then 0.0077 - 0.000054 BTC. Reading mBTC out of XBT is also easy 7,700 XBT = 7.7 mBTC.

For higher sums 123,456,789 XBT is 123.456789 BTC also easy.

I think people generally more used to deal with big numbers than with small fractions.

Of course, commas and decimal points mean different things in different locales, but that's more of an i18n issue than a knock at picking any particular range to use as a valid level.

I believe that if Bitcoin is going to be successful it is going to need to be at the level where talking about a few XBT is similar to talking about a few dollars/yen/whatever.  But for talking about real values I don't see it being useful for a long time yet.

I do agree with the idea that big numbers are easier to think about than mall fractions.  But like it or not the worth of Bitcoin is compared directly to that of USD and so we're probably looking at appreciation of three orders of magnitude until XBT are used directly.

According to the thread an XBT (shouldn't it be XBC?) is a millibitcoin, not a microbitcoin.

From Grau's post:

        1 Bitcoin = 1 million XBT

[jackjack]

Please rather consider XBT for reasons elaborated here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=220761.msg2326526#msg2326526

Although the most sensible solution long-term, it does cause issues with the current exchange rate.  Even the cheapest items will be quoted in hundreds of thousands of XBT, and the exchange rate itself doesn't look quite so appealing when it's 0.000129$/XBT.

I don't see why people can't just use the units that are most appropriate to the denomination.  Use 150mBTC rather than 0.15BTC; use 20MBTC rather than 20000000BTC; use 24XBT (or 24uBTC) rather than 0.000024BTC.  Is it so hard?

This, a thousand times

[Razick]

For people who want to use Bitcoin as a currency instead of a hobby, yes, it's too complicated.

Milk = mBTC15
Expensive wine = BTC0.99
Basic Membership = uBTC 999
Silver Membership = mBTC 9.99
Enterprise Membership = BTC 9.99

More likely:

Milk = mBTC15
Expensive wine = BTC0.99
Basic Membership = mBTC 1 (let's be realistic about this one)
Silver Membership = mBTC 10
Enterprise Membership = mBTC 10000 (assuming that a 1000x increase is again reasonable)

In the same way:

Milk = 99c
Expensive wine = $99
Basic membership = $1,000
Silver membership = $10,000
Enterprise membership = $10M

The reality is that people deal with different denominations all the time, just not usually at the same time.  If all your groceries are in the mBTC range then they'll all be priced using that range.  In the meantime all of the houses for sale will probably be in the kBTC range so will all be priced in that range.

That really is different from what we are talking about here. Your example is more like:

Milk = BTC0.99
Expensive wine = BTC9.99
Basic membership = BTC1,000
Silver membership = BTC10,000
Enterprise membership = BTC10M

As for me having the basic membership priced in uBTC, I'm to make a point, not say that's what it would actually cost. Also keep in mind that in the same way stores use $0.99 instead of $1, Bitcoin stores are likely to use uBTC when it will make their products look cheaper.

[grau]

Please rather consider XBT for reasons elaborated here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=220761.msg2326526#msg2326526

Although the most sensible solution long-term, it does cause issues with the current exchange rate.  Even the cheapest items will be quoted in hundreds of thousands of XBT, and the exchange rate itself doesn't look quite so appealing when it's 0.000129$/XBT.

I don't see why people can't just use the units that are most appropriate to the denomination.  Use 150mBTC rather than 0.15BTC; use 20MBTC rather than 20000000BTC; use 24XBT (or 24uBTC) rather than 0.000024BTC.  Is it so hard?

A dollar is 7,700 XBT at the moment. The dust limit is 54 XBT. Therefore XBT covers quite well the micropayment range and the commas make it easier to read then 0.0077 - 0.000054 BTC. Reading mBTC out of XBT is also easy 7,700 XBT = 7.7 mBTC.

For higher sums 123,456,789 XBT is 123.456789 BTC also easy.

I think people generally more used to deal with big numbers than with small fractions.

According to the thread an XBT (shouldn't it be XBC?) is a millibitcoin, not a microbitcoin.

1 XBT = 100 satoshi.

That is all you need to remember, just like 1 Dollar = 100 cents.
Conversions between BTC or mBTC and XBT are simple since the thousand separators indicate them.

Milk = 15,000 XBT = mBTC 15
Expensive wine = 990,000 XBT = BTC 0.99 = 990 mBTC
Basic Membership = 9.9 XBT = uBTC 999
Silver Membership = 9,900 XBT = mBTC 9.99
Enterprise Membership = 9,900,000 XBT = BTC 9.99

[Razick]

Please rather consider XBT for reasons elaborated here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=220761.msg2326526#msg2326526

Although the most sensible solution long-term, it does cause issues with the current exchange rate.  Even the cheapest items will be quoted in hundreds of thousands of XBT, and the exchange rate itself doesn't look quite so appealing when it's 0.000129$/XBT.

I don't see why people can't just use the units that are most appropriate to the denomination.  Use 150mBTC rather than 0.15BTC; use 20MBTC rather than 20000000BTC; use 24XBT (or 24uBTC) rather than 0.000024BTC.  Is it so hard?

A dollar is 7,700 XBT at the moment. The dust limit is 54 XBT. Therefore XBT covers quite well the micropayment range and the commas make it easier to read then 0.0077 - 0.000054 BTC. Reading mBTC out of XBT is also easy 7,700 XBT = 7.7 mBTC.

For higher sums 123,456,789 XBT is 123.456789 BTC also easy.

I think people generally more used to deal with big numbers than with small fractions.

According to the thread an XBT (shouldn't it be XBC?) is a millibitcoin, not a microbitcoin.

1 XBT = 100 satoshi.

That is all you need to remember, just like 1 Dollar = 100 cents.
Conversions between BTC or mBTC and XBT are simple since the thousand separators indicate them.

Milk = 15,000 XBT = mBTC 15
Expensive wine = 990,000 XBT = BTC 0.99
Basic Membership = 9.9 XBT = uBTC 999
Silver Membership = 9,900 XBT = mBTC 9.99
Enterprise Membership = 9,900,000 XBT = BTC 9.99

I like that idea a lot. If it were up to me I think I'd go with it, BUT how would that change the public's perception?

[grau]

I like that idea a lot. If it were up to me I think I'd go with it, BUT how would that change the public's perception?

People new to Bitcoin will like it from the beginning since it is closer to what they are used to.

It is rather the old Bitcoiners who have to finally get it, that this would help adoption and is actually a must if you were to store Bitcoins in a database or system shared with other currencies.

[Razick]

I like that idea a lot. If it were up to me I think I'd go with it, BUT how would that change the public's perception?

People new to Bitcoin will like it from the beginning since it is closer to what they are used to.

It is rather the old Bitcoiners who have to finally get it, that this would help adoption and is actually a must if you were to store Bitcoins in a database or system shared with other currencies.

Can you explain how it's a must?

[The 4ner]

The easiest way to force adoption of such a change would be to simply change the default units in the next bitcoin-qt release from BTC to mBTC.

Most people would not change the default and get used to dealing with mBTC.

This would require the developers okay. You'd need to be able to convince them. I would say that you would also have to convince all users but unfortunately that is not the case anymore seeing as to how easily Gavin was able to make changes to the client and simply tell everyone you either get with the new or stay behind. Of course I'm referring to the exclusion of certain transactions from the blockchain. Now, whether you thought that the change to the new client version was good or not does not matter the point is that a change was easily made by elite members. So there's your answer convince them that your proposed change has positive outcome and the rest of us that use the Bitcoin-qt client will have no choice but to accept it.

Maybe the majority of the users was just fine with this patch, did you think about that?
Of course it was no problem to make this patch then.

More like the majority that aren't worried about ever sending or receiving small amounts of bitcoin, but what about start ups looking to accept any amount of btc for donation to their hopefully future business?

[David Rabahy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name

Naming Bitcoin denominations can have a massive impact.  For example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slang_terms_for_money.

I give 200 mBTC as birthday/graduation gifts; way more exciting than 0.2 BTC.

*If* Bitcoin is wildly successful then we will be facing this denomination naming problem again.

We cannot deny our history; 1 BTC is already a valuable thing and could go up in value.

bit = techie but there is also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit_(money) -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shave_and_a_Haircut
coin = http://etymonline.com/?term=coin but I do not know the intent of the original name giver; my guess is they meant to provoke thoughts of gold coins

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto

The young will accept things more readily; the old will not.  The young are poor; the old are rich.

We are fraught with hidden assumptions, e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal.

[DobZombie]

zinodaur put it better than me:

6th of February?

That's been and gone mate!

[escrow.ms]

6th of February?

That's been and gone mate!

I think it's 2nd of June..Which is coming.

[nii236]

I thought it was 6th of February as well! You guys gotta think globally...

[The 4ner]

zinodaur put it better than me:

6th of February?

That's been and gone mate!

June 2nd man.

[2586]

[grau]

I like that idea a lot. If it were up to me I think I'd go with it, BUT how would that change the public's perception?

People new to Bitcoin will like it from the beginning since it is closer to what they are used to.

It is rather the old Bitcoiners who have to finally get it, that this would help adoption and is actually a must if you were to store Bitcoins in a database or system shared with other currencies.

Can you explain how it's a must?

Virtually none of the existing finance applications or databases storing currency support a precision more than two decimal digits. All finance applications use three capital letter ISO currency codes (mBTC is 4 and mixed case).

You want to store and process Bitcoin where the other currencies are, then it is a must.

Here again a reasoning in more detail: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=220761.msg2326526#msg2326526

[David Rabahy]

Virtually none of the existing finance applications or databases storing currency support a precision more than two decimal digits. All finance applications use three capital letter ISO currency codes (mBTC is 4 and mixed case).

You want to store and process Bitcoin where the other currencies are, then it is a must.

Here again a reasoning in more detail: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=220761.msg2326526#msg2326526

MBC or MBT