BFL ASIC STATUS 5/29

[PuertoLibre]

Jesus.  I know 50GH/s is a lot, but I never ran the numbers before.  Does that really mean Avalon owners are pulling in $10k/month at current conditions?

Only if you are smart on how, when and where you mine.

It's safe to say that most Avalon owners are well into 5 figures. They should be into 6 figures by...a while from now.

[KGambler]

It could be a more advanced long con.  Their CEO or whatever is a convicted con man, and spent time in prison for fraud.  It's possible that he has learned from his mistakes, meaning he is now a "better" con artist.  The "best" con men tend not to go to jail because they operate inside the law as much as possible.

Here's an example...  Let's say Sonny is drawing a huge salary and one day BFL announces that their venture has failed and that they are declaring bankruptcy.  It's clear where the money went - right into Sonny's bank account.  What did he do illegal?  Will they be able to put him in jail?  

To expand a little...

This happens all the time with stock promotions.  An example would be REFR (Research Frontiers), a long running stock scam where the executives pay themselves huge salaries despite the fact that this company has not had any revenues worth mentioning for DECADES.  The money comes from issuing new shares and unloading them on unsophisticated investors.

Now, in BFL's case they may be trying to follow this more advanced type of long con but failing because of one important difference...  I am not sure if it's legal to simply use the preorder money and then claim "sorry, we tried our best but failed as a business".  Legally, preorder money might be considered differently than a direct investment - i.e. you cannot just use it on salaries, consultants (read "friends and relatives"), materials (kickbacks) and rent (from a corp owned by a relative), etc. etc.

[k9quaint]

I find this situation fascinating from a psychological perspective.

If someone repeatedly lies to you, why would you suddenly think that lie #19, lie #23, or lie #58 might actually be true? What makes you think that this time they are telling the truth, as opposed to the previous 30 or 40 or 50 lies?

This company has proven that they can not be considered honest and trustworthy. At least to anyone who has done more than 30 minutes of research on the forums here.

Fascinating situation...

Broken analog watches tell the correct time twice a day.

Both of these comments are comparing apples to oranges..

This situation is more like "When your meth addicted friends tells you on a monthly basis that he "is clean now" and "I'm never going to touch that stuff again".  It may be true at the time... and it may be his/her intention.  But after the 4th, 5th, 20th time they do it, you just nod your head and say "Good for you" all the while not really believing that this will be the reality.  

..The people who did not order BFL, or cancelled their orders are the people who don't really have a relationship with that person, and say in a very blunt way "whatever, you'll fall off the wagon soon enough", and even at times would rather see them fail so they won't have to deal with seeing them later on.  The people who do have orders with BFL are like the friends or family of that person.  They don't really believe it will happen, or believe in the timing, but only hope that one day what they say comes true.

I personally think the company doesn't really plan for the setbacks, and when given an expectation by a vendor (say 1-2 weeks), they tell their customer base "1 WEEK!".  By now it is at the 7-8 month mark, but they are still going.  The way I figure it is, if the company was a true scam, they would have taken the money already and moved on to a new scam.  This is beyond the meaning of "long con".  The only thing that will tell is time.  I could see a possibility that they take too long, and only a handful of people getting these devices while they are still profitable.  That would be my personal opinion of a "worst case scenario".  At that point either they can get back several returns until they file bankruptcy, and at that point, everyone looses their money that still have not received their product.  Best case scenario is within the next 2 weeks they get anywhere CLOSE to shipping out to their reported amount of 400 per day.  I have this sneaking suspicion that the reality will probably somewhere in between.

It could be a more advanced long con.  Their CEO or whatever is a convicted con man, and spent time in prison for fraud.  It's possible that he has learned from his mistakes, meaning he is now a "better" con artist.  The "best" con men tend not to go to jail because they operate inside the law as much as possible.

Here's an example...  Let's say Sonny is drawing a huge salary and one day BFL announces that their venture has failed and that they are declaring bankruptcy.  It's clear where the money went - right into Sonny's bank account.  What did he do illegal?  Will they be able to put him in jail?  

The lottery scams that Sonny was convicted of went on for a decade before the police finally made arrests. If BFL is paying Sonny $500K a year in salary, why wouldn't he want to string it out forever?  He wouldn't even be a very well paid CEO at that figure, but BFL could be leasing cars, houses, boats, etc. Who knows?

Money goes in, very little comes out in terms of hash rate. I remember in early April everyone declaring that the "BFL locusts" were coming. Then again in late April. Then again in early May, and again in late May. Now we have 1 more day till June. Maybe Smoothie or Puerto can collect a master list of all BFL shipping date promises.

[KGambler]

I find this situation fascinating from a psychological perspective.

If someone repeatedly lies to you, why would you suddenly think that lie #19, lie #23, or lie #58 might actually be true? What makes you think that this time they are telling the truth, as opposed to the previous 30 or 40 or 50 lies?

This company has proven that they can not be considered honest and trustworthy. At least to anyone who has done more than 30 minutes of research on the forums here.

Fascinating situation...

Broken analog watches tell the correct time twice a day.

Both of these comments are comparing apples to oranges..

This situation is more like "When your meth addicted friends tells you on a monthly basis that he "is clean now" and "I'm never going to touch that stuff again".  It may be true at the time... and it may be his/her intention.  But after the 4th, 5th, 20th time they do it, you just nod your head and say "Good for you" all the while not really believing that this will be the reality.  

..The people who did not order BFL, or cancelled their orders are the people who don't really have a relationship with that person, and say in a very blunt way "whatever, you'll fall off the wagon soon enough", and even at times would rather see them fail so they won't have to deal with seeing them later on.  The people who do have orders with BFL are like the friends or family of that person.  They don't really believe it will happen, or believe in the timing, but only hope that one day what they say comes true.

I personally think the company doesn't really plan for the setbacks, and when given an expectation by a vendor (say 1-2 weeks), they tell their customer base "1 WEEK!".  By now it is at the 7-8 month mark, but they are still going.  The way I figure it is, if the company was a true scam, they would have taken the money already and moved on to a new scam.  This is beyond the meaning of "long con".  The only thing that will tell is time.  I could see a possibility that they take too long, and only a handful of people getting these devices while they are still profitable.  That would be my personal opinion of a "worst case scenario".  At that point either they can get back several returns until they file bankruptcy, and at that point, everyone looses their money that still have not received their product.  Best case scenario is within the next 2 weeks they get anywhere CLOSE to shipping out to their reported amount of 400 per day.  I have this sneaking suspicion that the reality will probably somewhere in between.

It could be a more advanced long con.  Their CEO or whatever is a convicted con man, and spent time in prison for fraud.  It's possible that he has learned from his mistakes, meaning he is now a "better" con artist.  The "best" con men tend not to go to jail because they operate inside the law as much as possible.

Here's an example...  Let's say Sonny is drawing a huge salary and one day BFL announces that their venture has failed and that they are declaring bankruptcy.  It's clear where the money went - right into Sonny's bank account.  What did he do illegal?  Will they be able to put him in jail?  

The lottery scams that Sonny was convicted of went on for a decade before the police finally made arrests. If BFL is paying Sonny $500K a year in salary, why wouldn't he want to string it out forever?  He wouldn't even be a very well paid CEO at that figure, but BFL could be leasing cars, houses, boats, etc. Who knows?

Money goes in, very little comes out in terms of hash rate. I remember in early April everyone declaring that the "BFL locusts" were coming. Then again in late April. Then again in early May, and again in late May. Now we have 1 more day till June. Maybe Smoothie or Puerto can collect a master list of all BFL shipping date promises.

I agree with your post.  The one thing I would say is that a CEO's salary should be in some way representative of the profit and/or revenue produced by the company.  In other words, being a CEO of a company with no history of profit nor success is a lot different than being a CEO of an established, highly profitable enterprise.  When a CEO is drawing a salary which is overly large in relation to his company's revenue, it can be a red flag that something is not right.

I would not be at all surprised if it comes out that Sonny is drawing a large salary.  Afterall, he is a con man and his father was likewise a professional con man.

[Flying Hellfish]

I find this situation fascinating from a psychological perspective.

If someone repeatedly lies to you, why would you suddenly think that lie #19, lie #23, or lie #58 might actually be true? What makes you think that this time they are telling the truth, as opposed to the previous 30 or 40 or 50 lies?

This company has proven that they can not be considered honest and trustworthy. At least to anyone who has done more than 30 minutes of research on the forums here.

Fascinating situation...

Broken analog watches tell the correct time twice a day.

Both of these comments are comparing apples to oranges..

This situation is more like "When your meth addicted friends tells you on a monthly basis that he "is clean now" and "I'm never going to touch that stuff again".  It may be true at the time... and it may be his/her intention.  But after the 4th, 5th, 20th time they do it, you just nod your head and say "Good for you" all the while not really believing that this will be the reality.  

..The people who did not order BFL, or cancelled their orders are the people who don't really have a relationship with that person, and say in a very blunt way "whatever, you'll fall off the wagon soon enough", and even at times would rather see them fail so they won't have to deal with seeing them later on.  The people who do have orders with BFL are like the friends or family of that person.  They don't really believe it will happen, or believe in the timing, but only hope that one day what they say comes true.

I personally think the company doesn't really plan for the setbacks, and when given an expectation by a vendor (say 1-2 weeks), they tell their customer base "1 WEEK!".  By now it is at the 7-8 month mark, but they are still going.  The way I figure it is, if the company was a true scam, they would have taken the money already and moved on to a new scam.  This is beyond the meaning of "long con".  The only thing that will tell is time.  I could see a possibility that they take too long, and only a handful of people getting these devices while they are still profitable.  That would be my personal opinion of a "worst case scenario".  At that point either they can get back several returns until they file bankruptcy, and at that point, everyone looses their money that still have not received their product.  Best case scenario is within the next 2 weeks they get anywhere CLOSE to shipping out to their reported amount of 400 per day.  I have this sneaking suspicion that the reality will probably somewhere in between.

It could be a more advanced long con.  Their CEO or whatever is a convicted con man, and spent time in prison for fraud.  It's possible that he has learned from his mistakes, meaning he is now a "better" con artist.  The "best" con men tend not to go to jail because they operate inside the law as much as possible.

Here's an example...  Let's say Sonny is drawing a huge salary and one day BFL announces that their venture has failed and that they are declaring bankruptcy.  It's clear where the money went - right into Sonny's bank account.  What did he do illegal?  Will they be able to put him in jail? 

[/b]

Any online poker players will recognize this from the Full Tilt poker days...

Basically the BoD of the company funnelled ~10 million a month in dividend payments to the owners (while the company was in the red!!!!!!), leaving the company upside down to the tune of a little over 300 million USD.

[erk]

It could be a more advanced long con.  Their CEO or whatever is a convicted con man, and spent time in prison for fraud.  It's possible that he has learned from his mistakes, meaning he is now a "better" con artist.  The "best" con men tend not to go to jail because they operate inside the law as much as possible.

Here's an example...  Let's say Sonny is drawing a huge salary and one day BFL announces that their venture has failed and that they are declaring bankruptcy.  It's clear where the money went - right into Sonny's bank account.  What did he do illegal?  Will they be able to put him in jail?  

The person you are trying to smear,  posted a long straightforward explanation of the events on this forum last year, why don't you take the time to read it first?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110868.0

[KGambler]

It could be a more advanced long con.  Their CEO or whatever is a convicted con man, and spent time in prison for fraud.  It's possible that he has learned from his mistakes, meaning he is now a "better" con artist.  The "best" con men tend not to go to jail because they operate inside the law as much as possible.

Here's an example...  Let's say Sonny is drawing a huge salary and one day BFL announces that their venture has failed and that they are declaring bankruptcy.  It's clear where the money went - right into Sonny's bank account.  What did he do illegal?  Will they be able to put him in jail?  

The person you are trying to smear,  posted a long straightforward explanation of the events on this forum last year, why don't you take the time to read it first?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110868.0

Who did I smear?  He is not a convicted con artist?  He did not spend time in prison for fraud?  His father was not a professional con man?

[erk]

It could be a more advanced long con.  Their CEO or whatever is a convicted con man, and spent time in prison for fraud.  It's possible that he has learned from his mistakes, meaning he is now a "better" con artist.  The "best" con men tend not to go to jail because they operate inside the law as much as possible.

Here's an example...  Let's say Sonny is drawing a huge salary and one day BFL announces that their venture has failed and that they are declaring bankruptcy.  It's clear where the money went - right into Sonny's bank account.  What did he do illegal?  Will they be able to put him in jail?  

The person you are trying to smear,  posted a long straightforward explanation of the events on this forum last year, why don't you take the time to read it first?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110868.0

Who did I smear?  He is not a convicted con artist?  He did not spend time in prison for fraud?  His father was not a professional con man?

You don't even know the name of the CEO of Butterfly Labs do you?

Another troll.

[KGambler]

What do you mean?  I have to know how to spell his last name?      Or he is some other position?

What the fuck are you talking about?  Was Sonny V's father a professional con artist or not?

Another rube and/or shill.

[KGambler]

This description of the actual scheme bears no resemblance to what I just read in the link you posted:

https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/radDocs/PressRoom/nr110114.htm


In the link you posted, Sonny V was claiming that he was simply allowing people to wager on the outcome of existing lotteries.  For example, betting that the NY pick 3 would be 4-7-2.  That would be illegal but not, in my opinion, immoral. 

If you read the link I just pasted, it appears he lied.  Again.

[KGambler]

So this is his father...


http://www.mynews3.com/content/news/story/James-Ray-The-Silver-King-Houston-dead-at-66/PBuDmtPW60WSB9kDsWc3rg.cspx

http://www.reviewjournal.com/jane-ann-morrison/goodbye-scamming-scheming-silver-king-who-had-mettle-if-not-metal

http://www.lasvegasworldnews.com/notorious-con-man-james-ray-houston-dead-at-66/8172/


Erk, I hope this helps.  You seem really confused.

[k9quaint]

It could be a more advanced long con.  Their CEO or whatever is a convicted con man, and spent time in prison for fraud.  It's possible that he has learned from his mistakes, meaning he is now a "better" con artist.  The "best" con men tend not to go to jail because they operate inside the law as much as possible.

Here's an example...  Let's say Sonny is drawing a huge salary and one day BFL announces that their venture has failed and that they are declaring bankruptcy.  It's clear where the money went - right into Sonny's bank account.  What did he do illegal?  Will they be able to put him in jail?  

The person you are trying to smear,  posted a long straightforward explanation of the events on this forum last year, why don't you take the time to read it first?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110868.0

I would imagine most have read it. It is very old news.

You can read where he pled guilty to conspiracy to commit fraud which you can read here:
http://ia600409.us.archive.org/34/items/gov.uscourts.cacd.383556/gov.uscourts.cacd.383556.136.0.pdf

You can read the indictment here
http://ia600409.us.archive.org/34/items/gov.uscourts.cacd.383556/gov.uscourts.cacd.383556.8.0.pdf

The name of the case was:
California Central District Court, Case No. 2:07-cr-00134:
USA v. Vleisides et al

as you can read here:
http://www.plainsite.org/flashlight/case.html?id=1500526

He wasn't just mixed up in a betting company. He owned the shell corporations that funneled the money back to the gang.
They didn't buy lottery tickets, they used a little of the money to pay "winners" of small amounts. They kept and spent the rest.
None of the people who got scammed out of $20,000,000 got their money back.
They targeted senior citizens who were retired.

Every so often, an "Erk" shows up and tries to deflect and obscure Sonny Vleisides' history.

[KGambler]

http://www.justice.gov/usao/cac/Pressroom/pr2007/065.html


Again, this description of his crimes bears no resemblance to his claims that he was just running "numbers".

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I find this situation fascinating from a psychological perspective.

If someone repeatedly lies to you, why would you suddenly think that lie #19, lie #23, or lie #58 might actually be true? What makes you think that this time they are telling the truth, as opposed to the previous 30 or 40 or 50 lies?

This company has proven that they can not be considered honest and trustworthy. At least to anyone who has done more than 30 minutes of research on the forums here.

Fascinating situation...

Broken analog watches tell the correct time twice a day.

Both of these comments are comparing apples to oranges..

This situation is more like "When your meth addicted friends tells you on a monthly basis that he "is clean now" and "I'm never going to touch that stuff again".  It may be true at the time... and it may be his/her intention.  But after the 4th, 5th, 20th time they do it, you just nod your head and say "Good for you" all the while not really believing that this will be the reality.  

..The people who did not order BFL, or cancelled their orders are the people who don't really have a relationship with that person, and say in a very blunt way "whatever, you'll fall off the wagon soon enough", and even at times would rather see them fail so they won't have to deal with seeing them later on.  The people who do have orders with BFL are like the friends or family of that person.  They don't really believe it will happen, or believe in the timing, but only hope that one day what they say comes true.

I personally think the company doesn't really plan for the setbacks, and when given an expectation by a vendor (say 1-2 weeks), they tell their customer base "1 WEEK!".  By now it is at the 7-8 month mark, but they are still going.  The way I figure it is, if the company was a true scam, they would have taken the money already and moved on to a new scam.  This is beyond the meaning of "long con".  The only thing that will tell is time.  I could see a possibility that they take too long, and only a handful of people getting these devices while they are still profitable.  That would be my personal opinion of a "worst case scenario".  At that point either they can get back several returns until they file bankruptcy, and at that point, everyone looses their money that still have not received their product.  Best case scenario is within the next 2 weeks they get anywhere CLOSE to shipping out to their reported amount of 400 per day.  I have this sneaking suspicion that the reality will probably somewhere in between.

It could be a more advanced long con.  Their CEO or whatever is a convicted con man, and spent time in prison for fraud.  It's possible that he has learned from his mistakes, meaning he is now a "better" con artist.  The "best" con men tend not to go to jail because they operate inside the law as much as possible.

Here's an example...  Let's say Sonny is drawing a huge salary and one day BFL announces that their venture has failed and that they are declaring bankruptcy.  It's clear where the money went - right into Sonny's bank account.  What did he do illegal?  Will they be able to put him in jail?  

Laissez Faire City was a long con led by Sonny's Daddy-O. Did they stop taking money after reaching a certain dollar mark? No! For there were many more marks to be had. Hell, James Ray Houston turned his back when all the chips fell on his lap to start operating LFCity as the founders envisioned it, knowing that more moneys would go into his coffers via the way he was doing things, all the while with Sonny Boy at his side.

The day BFL is no longer able to maintain the ruse, thus becoming less profitable FOR THEM, the doors will be closed. I predict that Jody will retire shortly before the announcement, if there is one, and that Josh, a few pounds lighter due to ?, will be stating in no uncertain terms that he was left in the dark the entire time.

Here's the kicker: Josh will probably be the one in charge of liquidating the assets alongside some lawyer handpicked by Sonny's cousin the lawyer.

And I'm sure it's going to happen just prior to their first require corporate reporting to the state/IRS. Can you even imagine what their books look like?

[minternj]

Is it too much to ask for one BFL thread to stay on topic? Unless this sonny guy is actually running the pick and place machine, i dont give a flying fuck. We are here to talk about the hardware or lack of it.

[k9quaint]

Is it too much to ask for one BFL thread to stay on topic? Unless this sonny guy is actually running the pick and place machine, i dont give a flying fuck. We are here to talk about the hardware or lack of it.

This thread is exactly on topic. Every time BFL posts another "two weeks until delivery" update people ask why it will take another two weeks. Then the speculation beings as to why BFL failed again to deliver on their promises. Then someone points out that this is the nature of a long con, they string you along until finally they run aground. Then some newcomer to the forums defends Sonny Vleisides and says it was either an IRS witch hunt or that we are smearing his name with these fraud allegations. Then someone posts the well documented history of Sonny's fraud conviction for lottery scams.

This cycle can be broken in two ways.
1) BFL could actually start delivering on their promises
2) People could accept the history of Sonny Vleisides and stop posting disinformation about him

It only seems tedious because BFL has "updated" like this dozens of times.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Is it too much to ask for one BFL thread to stay on topic? Unless this sonny guy is actually running the pick and place machine, i dont give a flying fuck. We are here to talk about the hardware or lack of it.

I agree!

Therefore, addressing the "lack of it" aspect, I'll continue.

Sonny's probation is up come September 15: https://sites.google.com/site/bitcointech/home/united-states-of-america-vs-sonny-vleisides/unitedstatesofamericavsonnyvleisides

The defendant shall not engage, as whole or partial owner, employee or otherwise, in any business involving loan programs, gambling or gaming activities, telemarketing activities, investment programs or any other business involving the solicitation of funds or cold-calls to customers without the express approval of the Probation Officer prior to engagement in such employment. Further, the defendant shall provide the Probation Officer with access to any and all business records, client lists and other records pertaining to the operation of any business owned, in whole or in part, by the defendant, as directed by the Probation Officer;

Looks to me like the Probation Officer can have access to the business records simply by asking for them. I think it's to the best interest of the DA to make sure that people are protected from a potential ruse, for no DA wants to be on record in closing their eyes when info was presented to them. It's not like they have a trust thingy to put in place of a scam section because they are too busy to oversee everything.

[minternj]

If people want to hear about sony, they can check the other bfl threads since the history is rehashed in every one. It's rough to wade through this crap. It's like watching another superman or batman or spiderman movie, and they have to go through the origin again for half of the movie. Move on. bring up new info.

[k9quaint]

If people want to hear about sony, they can check the other bfl threads since the history is rehashed in every one. It's rough to wade through this crap. It's like watching another superman or batman or spiderman movie, and they have to go through the origin again for half of the movie. Move on. bring up new info.

There was new info in this thread. Erk said people are smearing Sonny's name and that he forced to plead guilty. Others responded with Sonny's trial history.
The history is only rehashed because someone is trying to re-write it.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

If people want to hear about sony, they can check the other bfl threads since the history is rehashed in every one. It's rough to wade through this crap. It's like watching another superman or batman or spiderman movie, and they have to go through the origin again for half of the movie. Move on. bring up new info.

M'kay! New info. To get a better idea as to what's going on at BFL, check out their forum.

Here's what the founders of LFCity, of which Sonny was one, published--or simply changed the cover.

http://cgiwsc.enhancedsitebuilder.com/extras/public/blog.cls?accountId=AENDU0INVCLJ&instanceId=11608&action-getImage&img_id=56e360c2543f1f564f7ebd65094c7692