Bitcoin will fail

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

The miners in Bitcoinland are the centralbanks. If they do not issue their bitcoin at cost+20% profit, and do not see the longer term money of processing transactions, There will never be enough money velocity to grow an economy. Be greedy, but sell before the next guy because the current process of buying bitcoin is ineffiecient, and way overpriced compared the cost of mining. You are NOT DeBeers diamonds.

If bitcoin are not dispersed into bitcoin projects, and it is constantly treated like gold 2.0 - we will forever have a dollar economy. Bernanke and the Fed win.

Do not "hold your coins for the longest time" if you are a miner and also wish to subvert the system. Greed will not help you. It really will not take much to bring bitcoin back down to 2-4$.

If i am wrong and bitcoin maintains its price, there will never be a bitcoin economy, it remains a speculative casino. I do not care about divisibilty as that is akin to inflation.

It being an instant payment system means little, as I have no one in china to pay or buy stuff.

I would really like to grow food and sell it for bitcoin, unfortunately  in order to do this I need to convince land owners, banks, farmers that my bitcoin is worth more than speculative value. In which case I can only start and fund that project with Fiat paper. Farming is not inexpensive. It may cost 500k-1mil to start a successful farm over 2-5 years to become productive enough to feed maybe 100 people/year. Assuming I have the horticultural credentials necessary to be trusted to get the investment, Who will actually put their bitcoins where their mouth is.... I assume you want your bitcoins to have real purchasing power more than 5 years after its debut... Btw I do not have enough money or bitcoin to start said farm.

If it become nearly impossible for me to raise the resources necessary to start a big project, wouldnt that defeat the purpose of coins being issued relatively easy?

Again if i am wrong, then I will be rich rich rich one day based on the few coins I think are on my flashdrives.

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[leemar]

Never heard such a cogent argument, must sell all my coins now :-)

[RodeoX]

Good thing you made this important discovery that we all missed. Crap, well... Go ahead and send me all your worthless coins and I will see to it that they are disposed of. 

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

Good thing you made this important discovery that we all missed. Crap, well... Go ahead and send me all your worthless coins and I will see to it that they are disposed of. 

You see, my actual goal is find investors to invest in a farm and produce worthy tangible items. So I would need a miner to invest bitcoin in me at a rate that is not worthless, but about 6-8$/btc

What will it take to get an investment large enough to start this?

I wonder of all the bitcoin miners, how many actually view their bitcoins as tool beyond gold 2.0

[DeathAndTaxes]

Thanks.  Just sold 500 BTC at market.  I will sell the rest once I get access to my cold wallet (damn my excessive security measures).  Thank you for pointing out the facts* nobody but you could see.  The firm (and baseless) prediction of $2-$4 is what convinced me.


*By "facts" I mean mindless rambling.  Hint: miners have no control over the rate of generation, the exchange rate or the velocity of the bitcoin economy (which is comparably high).

[grondilu]

I do not care about divisibilty as that is akin to inflation.

Try to use your brain a little before writing silly things.   If you decide to count your money in cents instead of dollars, does that make you one hundred times richer?

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

Good thing you made this important discovery that we all missed. Crap, well... Go ahead and send me all your worthless coins and I will see to it that they are disposed of. 

I am not a miner. The speculators(me) have a potential role to create an inflated value by buying bitcoins at an exchange as I think they might be worth something one day. But based on what I see already, they will not be once people realize there is no where to spend them.

If all you care about is the gold 2.0, understand the dollar wins! Similar to money, it is a tool, not a store of value.

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

I do not care about divisibilty as that is akin to inflation.

Try to use your brain a little before writing silly things.   If you decide to count your money in cents instead of dollars, does that make you one hundred times richer?

The decimal place can be moved as long as 51% of the mining(central banks) community agree. Inflation.

[prezbo]

I do not care about divisibilty as that is akin to inflation.

Try to use your brain a little before writing silly things.   If you decide to count your money in cents instead of dollars, does that make you one hundred times richer?

The decimal place can be moved as long as 51% of the mining(central banks) community agree. Inflation.

No one is talking about moving the decimal place but you Re-read what grondilu posted, a little bit slower this time.

[leemar]

Good thing you made this important discovery that we all missed. Crap, well... Go ahead and send me all your worthless coins and I will see to it that they are disposed of. 

You see, my actual goal is find investors to invest in a farm and produce worthy tangible items. So I would need a miner to invest bitcoin in me at a rate that is not worthless, but about 6-8$/btc

What will it take to get an investment large enough to start this?

I wonder of all the bitcoin miners, how many actually view their bitcoins as tool beyond gold 2.0

So you want someone to give you BTC currently priced at $128 for somewhere between 6-8$, doesn't sound like a great business opportunity to me but I might be missing something.

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

The firm (and baseless) prediction of $2-$4 is what convinced me.

[/size]

it is not a prediction, it is not baseless. Compute the cost equipment, electricity, human time spent monitoring it. You get a broad number of around 2-4$/btc.

The market may remain overbought for many years, but eventually it will return to the face value.

[DeathAndTaxes]

I do not care about divisibilty as that is akin to inflation.

Try to use your brain a little before writing silly things.   If you decide to count your money in cents instead of dollars, does that make you one hundred times richer?

The decimal place can be moved as long as 51% of the mining(central banks) community agree. Inflation.

Nope.  You couldn't do that with 51% (or any amount) of hashing power.  You can't change Bitcoin in that manner you can only fork it.  Users can continue to use the "current" Bitcoin and the miners that remains will get a larger share of the reward.  Try learning about how Bitcoin works before declaring it dead.  The Bitcoin as it exists today (21M BTC, irreversible, psuedo-anonymous, divisibility to 8 decimal places, 10 minute blocks, 50 block reward halving every 210,000 blocks) will ALWAYS exist as long as at least two nodes are using it and at least one node is mining.

[DeathAndTaxes]

it is not a prediction, it is not baseless. Compute the cost equipment, electricity, human time spent monitoring it. You get a broad number of around 2-4$/btc.

Then you should mine and make 90,000% annual profit.  Except the cost to mine is much much much higher than $2 to $4 per BTC.  Care to show your "math" (and I use the term lightly) on how the production cost (which is irrelevant to the exchange rate of a currency) is $2 to $4.

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

So you want someone to give you BTC currently priced at $128 for somewhere between 6-8$, doesn't sound like a great business opportunity to me but I might be missing something.
[/quote]

The business oppurtunity arrives in the form, because bitcoins were dispersed at near cost, over time the newer mined coins begin to carry a cost that will increase. Eventually it will be 10-15$/btc, eventually the cost to produce a bitcoin it will be 30-40$/btc so on and so forth. As long as bitcoin based projects are the focus.

[RodeoX]

I do agree with you (if I understand you correctly) that speculation is currently driving the bitcoin economy, and she is a bad driver. However if bitcoin requires us to use it in a certain way and requires our pampering, then it is not going to work.
What I have seen in the past two years is an endless stream haters and attackers. Despite their efforts bitcoin is stronger now than ever, and still growing stronger.    

[leemar]

So you want someone to give you BTC currently priced at $128 for somewhere between 6-8$, doesn't sound like a great business opportunity to me but I might be missing something.

The business oppurtunity arrives in the form, because bitcoins were dispersed at near cost, over time the newer mined coins begin to carry a cost that will increase. Eventually it will be 10-15$/btc, eventually the cost to produce a bitcoin it will be 30-40$/btc so on and so forth. As long as bitcoin based projects are the focus.
[/quote]

Thanks for explaining but  I will pass for now.

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

I do agree with you (if I understand you correctly) that speculation is currently driving the bitcoin economy, and she is a bad driver. However if bitcoin requires us to use it in a certain way and requires our pampering, then it is not going to work.
What I have seen in the past two years is an endless stream haters and attackers. Despite their efforts bitcoin is stronger now than ever, and still growing stronger.    

Speculation has its good powers, but only if the central banks take advantage of that. You can really leverage an investment with bitcoins, as long as the wealthy miners(central banks) are issuing bitcoin at a steady rate, and bitcoin based projects begin to pop up, You give me the coins, i sell what I need to the speculators for fiat expenses, as my farm becomes productive, so does the intrinsic value of bitcoin.

I am not a hater. I think bitcoin if beautiful, but there must be some very open, honest, intelligent conversations regarding the deployment and creation of a bitcoin economy.

Again the early adopter(wealthy miners) must bite off more risk than later adopters, yet again the early adopters have exponetially more to gain by taking the risks, that will eventually not be such a leap for the masses.

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

So you want someone to give you BTC currently priced at $128 for somewhere between 6-8$, doesn't sound like a great business opportunity to me but I might be missing something.

The business oppurtunity arrives in the form, because bitcoins were dispersed at near cost, over time the newer mined coins begin to carry a cost that will increase. Eventually it will be 10-15$/btc, eventually the cost to produce a bitcoin it will be 30-40$/btc so on and so forth. As long as bitcoin based projects are the focus.

Thanks for explaining but  I will pass for now.
[/quote]

Maybe you will reconsider after the price drops, if it drops. Unfortunately in this moment of "easy coins" with a premium market value. (heres your one chance of real investing leverage to create, real, tangible projects. Not imaginary wealth driven by artifical scarcity.

Even if bitcoin rises expontentially, do you really want to cash out for dollars? Again the fed and the dollar win if you chose this path, and eventually bitcoin crashes because there is no underlying economy.. It is much like a Fed propped up market. It works until it doesnt. Except this is fueled by irrational exuberence, 3.5 years after its inception and yet these projects are not being discussed. Rather the mentallity to hoard(save) is only going to be perpetrated.

[RodeoX]

I see what your saying. But a few things. The speculation is a relatively recent phenomena in bitcoin. There were always speculators, however since the new year it has exploded. You hear less about people producing items, starting online stores, or engaging in a more tangible economy. They are there and will continue to come into the fold (In my opinion).
To my mind speculation is just another iteration of the bitcoin story. It shows that btc is expanding into new markets and mindsets. Next could be the remittance market. That will bring a new subset of peers and new challenges. This experiment is just getting started.   

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

I see what your saying. But a few things. The speculation is a relatively recent phenomena in bitcoin. There were always speculators, however since the new year it has exploded. You hear less about people producing items, starting online stores, or engaging in a more tangible economy. They are there and will continue to come into the fold (In my opinion).

 This experiment is just getting started.  Lets not fuck it up! Lets get it right. Be greedy but also be generous.

If I want to start a bitcoin based store, it requires me to purchase all tangibles in fiat. This only supports the dollar economy.

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

Next could be the remittance market. That will bring a new subset of peers and new challenges. This experiment is just getting started.    

Remittance is the opposite of greed... Ding ding ding!

How does one earn a Bitcoin through labor to send home to family?


but this also does little if I try and send my buddy in china a bitcoin, he needs to then transfer it to an exchange, sell it, wait 3-5+days to recieve a check so he can go spend it. If he can not spend a bitcoin, remittance is a dud idea until a bitcoin based economy is already up and running.

Again fiat wins,, if bitcoin based projects are not the main focus right now.

[nameface]

But I thought Bitcoin was money for the Internet? Why do you wanna buy farms IRL? Do you mean Farmville? I'm completely lost.

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

But I thought Bitcoin was money for the Internet? Why do you wanna buy farms IRL? Do you mean Farmville? I'm completely lost.

Bitcoin is here to replace fiat. Everything earth related is what bitcoin is for. Who wants to invest in a farm and eat some healthy organic veggies and meats, and have a place to 'get away' from urban hussle and bussle.

[Razick]

I do not care about divisibilty as that is akin to inflation.

Try to use your brain a little before writing silly things.   If you decide to count your money in cents instead of dollars, does that make you one hundred times richer?

The decimal place can be moved as long as 51% of the mining(central banks) community agree. Inflation.

If the decimal place was moved one place, that might technically result in 1000% inflation, but everyone would have 1000% as many units of currency. Economic miscalculation would be prevented since the change would be so obvious.

[Razick]

But I thought Bitcoin was money for the Internet? Why do you wanna buy farms IRL? Do you mean Farmville? I'm completely lost.

Bitcoin is here to replace fiat. Everything earth related is what bitcoin is for. Who wants to invest in a farm and eat some healthy organic veggies and meats, and have a place to 'get away' from urban hussle and bussle.

I see Bitcoin more as "the new PayPal" and then some rather than "the new Dollar."

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

But I thought Bitcoin was money for the Internet? Why do you wanna buy farms IRL? Do you mean Farmville? I'm completely lost.

Bitcoin is here to replace fiat. Everything earth related is what bitcoin is for. Who wants to invest in a farm and eat some healthy organic veggies and meats, and have a place to 'get away' from urban hussle and bussle.

I see Bitcoin more as "the new PayPal" and then some rather than "the new Dollar."

Then why are us dollars not converted into internet dollars. The scarcity of bitcoin, has the ability to act as gold and store of value. So it is more than a payment system.

[RodeoX]

Next could be the remittance market. That will bring a new subset of peers and new challenges. This experiment is just getting started.    

Remittance is the opposite of greed... Ding ding ding!

How does one earn a Bitcoin through labor to send home to family?


but this also does little if I try and send my buddy in china a bitcoin, he needs to then transfer it to an exchange, sell it, wait 3-5+days to recieve a check so he can go spend it. If he can not spend a bitcoin, remittance is a dud idea until a bitcoin based economy is already up and running.

Again fiat wins,, if bitcoin based projects are not the main focus right now.

That may be true now because there are still many needed items you can't buy with bitcoin. In the future I think most people will just spend bitcoins to buy, and not turn them into local currency.
I do that now. I do not "cash out" ever. Instead when I want to take some profits I go shopping. After the hassle of getting bitcoins why would I trade them for less useful money? I find that some people want bitcoins badly enough to sell for a great price, thus maximizing my buying power and profitability.

[Razick]

Next could be the remittance market. That will bring a new subset of peers and new challenges. This experiment is just getting started.    

Remittance is the opposite of greed... Ding ding ding!

How does one earn a Bitcoin through labor to send home to family?


but this also does little if I try and send my buddy in china a bitcoin, he needs to then transfer it to an exchange, sell it, wait 3-5+days to recieve a check so he can go spend it. If he can not spend a bitcoin, remittance is a dud idea until a bitcoin based economy is already up and running.

Again fiat wins,, if bitcoin based projects are not the main focus right now.

Look around, you can buy all kinds of shit with Bitcoins. I bought an miniature crossbow for example.

My paintball store (temporarily closed while I get some legal stuff in order) accepts Bitcoin. Wordpress accepts it. Coingig accepts it. You can buy giftcards with it. The Bitcoin economy is small, but growing quickly, and already larger than you think.

[Razick]

But I thought Bitcoin was money for the Internet? Why do you wanna buy farms IRL? Do you mean Farmville? I'm completely lost.

Bitcoin is here to replace fiat. Everything earth related is what bitcoin is for. Who wants to invest in a farm and eat some healthy organic veggies and meats, and have a place to 'get away' from urban hussle and bussle.

I see Bitcoin more as "the new PayPal" and then some rather than "the new Dollar."

Then why are us dollars not converted into internet dollars. The scarcity of bitcoin, has the ability to act as gold and store of value. So it is more than a payment system.

Exactly. More than a payment system, it's an internet currency. That is a problem why?

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

But I thought Bitcoin was money for the Internet? Why do you wanna buy farms IRL? Do you mean Farmville? I'm completely lost.

Bitcoin is here to replace fiat. Everything earth related is what bitcoin is for. Who wants to invest in a farm and eat some healthy organic veggies and meats, and have a place to 'get away' from urban hussle and bussle.

I see Bitcoin more as "the new PayPal" and then some rather than "the new Dollar."

Then why are us dollars not converted into internet dollars. The scarcity of bitcoin, has the ability to act as gold and store of value. So it is more than a payment system.

Exactly. More than a payment system, it's an internet currency. That is a problem why?

Because it is too expensive to send fiat into and out of bitcoin. Yet holding bitcoin is very risky if someone is required to hand over a very large stack of cash to get a hold and decent quantity of bitcoin. All it takes is the early miners to dump them bitcoins they are holding and bring the price to the floor. There is no economy supporting bitcoin. Its 99% speculative at the moment and there is very little visable effort to build a bitcoin economy.

Too risky for major money to move it. Not to mention the fed could buy up all bitcoins making all of us fiat rich and corrupted. undermining the supposed monetary revolution.

[Birdy]

Not to mention the fed could buy up all bitcoins making all of us fiat rich and corrupted. undermining the supposed monetary revolution.

Lol, I sure hope they do.
Then we are all rich and all we need to do is change to a new Bitcoin fork.
-> they have sent us money and achieved nothing.

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

Not to mention the fed could buy up all bitcoins making all of us fiat rich and corrupted. undermining the supposed monetary revolution.

Lol, I sure hope they do.
Then we are all rich and all we need to do is change to a new Bitcoin fork.
-> they have sent us money and achieved nothing.

Then you take that fiat money and invest in farms, bachelor pads, yatchs.. Fiat wins. Bitcoin fails.


They only situation in which bitcoin might succeed is if the dollar fails. And it only succeeds because it is not debt based. Nor does that mean there will not be major hardships, poverty rampant to the point of society collapsing.

[Birdy]

Then you take that fiat money and invest in farms, bachelor pads, yatchs.. Fiat wins. Bitcoin fails.

Nope, farms, bachelor pads, yachts and the new Bitcoin fork win then. Not fiat.

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

Then you take that fiat money and invest in farms, bachelor pads, yatchs.. Fiat wins. Bitcoin fails.

Nope, farms, bachelor pads, yachts and the new Bitcoin fork win then. Not fiat.

either you are a very smart delusional, or just delusional. How does a new bitcoin fork change anything, sounds like a scam.

[Birdy]

either you are a very smart delusional, or just delusional. How does a new bitcoin fork change anything, sounds like a scam.

Ok here the steps:
1. Some government tries to buy up all the Bitcoins, so they pump millions after millions in it

We have two options:
1) We still have enough coins to trade otherwise -> Bitcoin is a success o,O
It's nearly like an official currency of that state now.

2) They have bought all the coins and trading is impossible now (I don't know how they do that, but let's assume they did)
a) We are rich in fiat now
b) We create a new Bitcoin fork (or use Litecoin or whatever)
c) Invest 1%+ of our money in it to have the same Bitcoin economy like now (or more, if we spent more)

-> They have useless Bitcoins bought for millions and we have the same we had before+more

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

either you are a very smart delusional, or just delusional. How does a new bitcoin fork change anything, sounds like a scam.

Ok here the steps:
1. Some government tries to buy up all the Bitcoins, so they pump millions after millions in it

We have two options:
1) We still have enough coins to trade otherwise -> Bitcoin is a success o,O
It's nearly like an official currency of that state now.

2) They have bought all the coins and trading is impossible now (I don't know how they do that, but let's assume they did)
a) We are rich in fiat now
b) We create a new Bitcoin fork (or use Litecoin or whatever)
c) Invest 1%+ of our money in it to have the same Bitcoin economy like now (or more, if we spent more)

-> They have useless Bitcoins bought for millions and we have the same we had before+more

and the fiat pyramid continues... If this happened the dollar and bitcoin would fail. Have all the paper dollars you want, they are not worth anything. Gold and barter win. eeeew

Gold and barter is not a pretty world.

[lassdas]

the current process of buying bitcoin is ineffiecient, and way overpriced compared the cost of mining.

What's inefficient about the current process of buying bitcoin?
And how is it in any way related to the cost of mining?

You see, my actual goal is find investors to invest in a farm and produce worthy tangible items. So I would need a miner to invest bitcoin in me

And why would those investors need to be miners?
What has an investment in your project todo with mining (or as mentioned by you before, with the cost of mining)?

Oh and for your thought's about a "fair" price (like $6-8, lol), do you actually have any idea what the costs are to produce 1BTC on different hardware? Maybe you should double-check your numbers a little,
but as said, the cost of mining has nothing, i repeat, nothing todo with the market price.
When the market is willing to pay $100, $200, or $500 per Coin, then that's the price, doesn't matter if the cost for mining is just $1, or $10000.

[Birdy]

and the fiat pyramid continues... If this happened the dollar and bitcoin would fail. Have all the paper dollars you want, they are not worth anything. Gold and barter win. eeeew

Gold and barter is not a pretty world.

Ehm...no? Then just instantly buy gold with the other 99% and you have your new fork+tons of gold.

But this discussion is useless anyway as it's impossible to buy all Bitcoins.

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

the current process of buying bitcoin is ineffiecient, and way overpriced compared the cost of mining.

What's inefficient about the current process of buying bitcoin?
And how is it in any way related to the cost of mining?



Oh and for your thought's about a "fair" price (like $6-8, lol), do you actually have any idea what the costs are to produce 1BTC on different hardware? Maybe you should double-check your numbers a little,
but as said, the cost of mining has nothing, i repeat, nothing todo with the market price.
When the market is willing to pay $100, $200, or $500 per Coin, then that's the price, doesn't matter if the cost for mining is just $1, or $10000.

Then bitcoin is a speculative casino with little real world value that is usable for commerce.

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

the current process of buying bitcoin is ineffiecient, and way overpriced compared the cost of mining.

What's inefficient about the current process of buying bitcoin?
And how is it in any way related to the cost of mining?

You see, my actual goal is find investors to invest in a farm and produce worthy tangible items. So I would need a miner to invest bitcoin in me

And why would those investors need to be miners?
What has an investment in your project todo with mining (or as mentioned by you before, with the cost of mining)?

Why bother with bitcoin, why do I not just go get a loan from the bank, or find a private investor who may or may not take my land if I endure a drought.

[Birdy]

Then bitcoin is a speculative casino with little real world value that is usable for commerce.

Last time I've checked casinos had a pretty big real life value (at least if value = moneyvalue).

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

If there is no real underlying value to bitcoin, eventually it will drop much closer to the actual cost of producing a bitcoin, whatever that may be

[nosurrender]

I don´t think, Bitcoin has to have the goal to take over or replace FIAT of any kind or origin. At this time, as no one really can say, where any Cryptocurrency will end a month oder a year or a decade from now, this is not the problem Bitcoin is facing. Any currency is only as much worth as someone (or a lot of someones) is willing to trade in in goods or another currency which is considered stable and precious.

Bitcoin has seen a dramatic rise in just a few month and I think there isn´t anyone out there who has a "feeling" of Bitcoin´s worth if not compared to FIAT. If I think of a Dollar or a EURO, I can imagine a lot of things I could get for it. If I think of a Bitcoin (or a fraction of it), I compare it to the actual price in Dollar or Euro, not to any actual goods of daily living. So I think - at least now - comparing Bitcoin to Dollar is comparing apples and oranges.

This only changes, if Bitcoin becomes a serious currency in (best case) daily trades. If it becomes "normal" - in use, not in concept. Therefore: of course most stores out there will refuse to sell you farming equipment for Bitcoin instead of Dollars. But that does not mean, the "real" value of Bitcoin could not be estimated, because it is at any time exactly worth as much as you´re able to get for it.

Just my two cents. Or: just my two Satoshi. Same same

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

I don´t think, Bitcoin has to have the goal to take over or replace FIAT of any kind or origin. At this time, as no one really can say, where any Cryptocurrency will end a month oder a year or a decade from now, this is not the problem Bitcoin is facing. Any currency is only as much worth as someone (or a lot of someones) is willing to trade in in goods or another currency which is considered stable and precious.

Bitcoin has seen a dramatic rise in just a few month and I think there isn´t anyone out there who has a "feeling" of Bitcoin´s worth if not compared to FIAT. If I think of a Dollar or a EURO, I can imagine a lot of things I could get for it. If I think of a Bitcoin (or a fraction of it), I compare it to the actual price in Dollar or Euro, not to any actual goods of daily living. So I think - at least now - comparing Bitcoin to Dollar is comparing apples and oranges.

This only changes, if Bitcoin becomes a serious currency in (best case) daily trades. If it becomes "normal" - in use, not in concept. Therefore: of course most stores out there will refuse to sell you farming equipment for Bitcoin instead of Dollars. But that does not mean, the "real" value of Bitcoin could not be estimated, because it is at any time exactly worth as much as you´re able to get for it.

Just my two cents. Or: just my two Satoshi. Same same

I agree, I understand this point of view. It is the most likely one we will experience regardless of the amount of mental gynastics we do. But what remains true on top of all this, the value of a bitcoin is purely speculative. It can and likely will go down if there are not places to actually spend bitcoins inexpensively. (exchange rate + processing fees)

Granted in this world of easy money, it will likely experience massive volatility, which is okay for the gold 2.0 bugs. It may experience long term growth, but not because of any reason other than speculative. It remains one of the most risky, least understood concepts on earth, as well as potentially high reward. But why?  Just because?

I can imagine if I had 10,000-100,000 bitcoins(which I surely do not) because if i did I would be on a different beach every day sipping on tequila, not on this dumb computer socializing with the unsocial...

Anyways, if i had that many, I would feel like a god, as I get to give birth to new productive economies based on hard, honest working men and women.... and children, lol.

And  I would feed the sweat equity the coins and captial necessary to build all of that.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Why bother with bitcoin, why do I not just go get a loan from the bank, or find a private investor who may or may not take my land if I endure a drought.

I think you may be a little self centered.  Just because Bitcoin doesn't work for you for your one very specific and niche usage today doesn't mean Bitcoin has failed.

I can't buy a candy bar with a dollar in Spain.
I can't buy just about anything with a gold bar.
It doesn't mean dollars and gold are useless they just aren't useful in all circumstances.

[lassdas]

the current process of buying bitcoin is ineffiecient, and way overpriced compared the cost of mining.

What's inefficient about the current process of buying bitcoin?
And how is it in any way related to the cost of mining?

You see, my actual goal is find investors to invest in a farm and produce worthy tangible items. So I would need a miner to invest bitcoin in me

And why would those investors need to be miners?
What has an investment in your project todo with mining (or as mentioned by you before, with the cost of mining)?

Why bother with bitcoin, why do I not just go get a loan from the bank, or find a private investor who may or may not take my land if I endure a drought.

Cool, I asked you 4 questions and you answered none.

[DeathAndTaxes]

And  I would feed the sweat equity the coins and captial necessary to build all of that.

I am sure you wouldn't do it at a $6 exchange rate though.

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

the current process of buying bitcoin is ineffiecient, and way overpriced compared the cost of mining.

if oil cost $5/barrel to drill, you would see much lower prices for gas at the pump. The market is only willing to pay such a large spread before alternatives are seeked.
What's inefficient about the current process of buying bitcoin?
And how is it in any way related to the cost of mining? When I buy aapl stock, atleast I know it has some value, and potential future value. Bitcoin not so much

You see, my actual goal is find investors to invest in a farm and produce worthy tangible items. So I would need a miner to invest bitcoin in me

And why would those investors need to be miners?  Why bother converting into bitcoin, how else does one obtain a bitcoin other than earning through miners investing it, or purchasing off another bitcoin holder.
What has an investment in your project todo with mining (or as mentioned by you before, with the cost of mining)?It is inefficient and high risk to wire money to an exchange, if the goal is a bitcoin based economy, so we can find a tangible price of a bitcoin(price discovery that is beyond trading beaver tails) the miners are the central banks that inject capital into the society

Why bother with bitcoin, why do I not just go get a loan from the bank, or find a private investor who may or may not take my land if I endure a drought.

Cool, I asked you 4 questions and you answered none.

[glendall]

Pretty much all of OP's arguments have already been disproved by BTC already having gone from being worthless to over a $130 usd in very few years.

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

And  I would feed the sweat equity the coins and captial necessary to build all of that.

I am sure you wouldn't do it at a $6 exchange rate though.

The goal is that, 1 satoshi needs to find its value that more or less represents 1 dollar. IE 1 BTC = 100,000,000$

in the beginning sweat equity is more or less slave labor, aside from fiat expenses agreed to be covered until farm becomes productive. I can then charge 5 satoshis for 1 pound of meat.

or 1 satoshi for a bundle of carrots.

I can hire labor for 1 satoshi an hour, as long as laborer harvests more than 40 satoshi's worth or produce/hour, I can employ him, be profitable, laborer can then send wages home as the wage itself was earned because productivity of the farm because of the bitcoin investment.

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

Pretty much all of OP's arguments have already been disproved by BTC already having gone from being worthless to over a $130 usd in very few years.

Why are global investors and banks not panic buying?

[glendall]

Because BTC is currently what, somewhere along the lines of 0.0000000000000001% of the world economy?  

They will. In the future many gov's, especially the good ole American empire, will go to great lengths to disrupt BTC as much as possible.

Investors on the other hand will see the opportunity and will get involved, to profit.

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

Because BTC is currently what, somewhere along the lines of 0.0000000000000001% of the world economy?  

They will. In the future many gov's, especially the good ole American empire, will go to great lengths to disrupt BTC as much as possible.

They can not disrupt it if we remove the dollar part of it, quite the contrary, an incredibly honest system can takeover incredibily quickly. Otherwise, the irrational exuberence the market will place on bitcoin over the next few years/decades will lead to "our own collective end." - lyrics from this amazing song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUVx13nBIhI

It's not like there's a book for this or something you could read
Cuz I’ve looked around
I tried to fill these holes with other roles I never learned to play
It seems like they always falter
How the hell should I know
Cuz it always seems to disappear so quickly you can’t see
Could somebody tell me where does the time go
I’ve got a bigger pile of questions than I could ever need
There’s no explaining these to me

I’ve never heard a word about the way we’re all received
At least that I believe in
I know traditions tell it's different, they spell it all it out to me
There’s no need to confuse me cuz I know what I know
And if everyone’s all subscribed to fictions that can’t be right
Then spinning we all collide one big typo this puppet show

I’d usually begin this conversation differently
I know it's kinda one sided
It’s obvious the answer is a question I believe
That no body’s asking
Now how the hell should I know
If everyone’s so unsure of
What's really below or above us
Then maybe we all buy in
Take our own collective end?

[glendall]

Oh never said they will be successful.

They may be succesful to some various extents, but no hegemonic entity will be able to terminate Bitcoin.

Bitcoin will triumph. I think it will be around until it will be replaced, eventually, by a superior coin somewhere down the line.

You can't kill good ideas, and it's very tough to beat fantastic software that is distributed in nature.

Absolute worse case I can conceive as possible is that BTC is banned worldwide by every government. And even in this scenario, it will succeed and gain value, as a currency limited to only the blackmarket (drugs and laundering.)

[nosurrender]

The goal is that, 1 satoshi needs to find its value that more or less represents 1 dollar. IE 1 BTC = 100,000,000$

in the beginning sweat equity is more or less slave labor, aside from fiat expenses agreed to be covered until farm becomes productive. I can then charge 5 satoshis for 1 pound of meat.

or 1 satoshi for a bundle of carrots.

I can hire labor for 1 satoshi an hour, as long as laborer harvests more than 40 satoshi's worth or produce/hour, I can employ him, be profitable, laborer can then send wages home as the wage itself was earned because productivity of the farm because of the bitcoin investment.

At current rates you could charge 0.04 BTC for 1 pound of meat. If current exchange rates doubled you could charge 0.08 BTC for 1 pound of meat. Maybe I´m stupid, but I don´t really see the need for your mentioned goal. But if you (and many other) would start selling goods for BTC, BTC itself would get value without the need to compare it FIAT.

[foggyb]

.........Otherwise, the irrational exuberence the market will place on bitcoin over the next few years/decades will lead to "our own collective end."

"Will" place? So you don't think the price is irrational now after all. I agree with you. The 21 million bitcoins can never again cost $6 each simply because of supply and demand (barring a network collapse). If you believe demand is never going higher than now and will, in fact drop, then you might have a case. But you haven't even tried to make that case.

[foggyb]

The goal is that, 1 satoshi needs to find its value that more or less represents 1 dollar. IE 1 BTC = 100,000,000$

in the beginning sweat equity is more or less slave labor, aside from fiat expenses agreed to be covered until farm becomes productive. I can then charge 5 satoshis for 1 pound of meat.

or 1 satoshi for a bundle of carrots.

I can hire labor for 1 satoshi an hour, as long as laborer harvests more than 40 satoshi's worth or produce/hour, I can employ him, be profitable, laborer can then send wages home as the wage itself was earned because productivity of the farm because of the bitcoin investment.

There's no need to reinvent the wheel. Bitcoin are bought and sold at rational market rates, right now.

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

.........Otherwise, the irrational exuberence the market will place on bitcoin over the next few years/decades will lead to "our own collective end."

"Will" place? So you don't think the price is irrational now after all. I agree with you. The 21 million bitcoins can never again cost $6 each simply because of supply and demand (barring a network collapse). If you believe demand is never going higher than now and will, in fact drop, then you might have a case. But you haven't even tried to make that case.

if it were to drop in price because of market forces, it is because the market is seeking rational price discovery. Current price discovery and all future price discovery will be irrational until BTC finds its own purchasing power value completely without the dollar.

It remains a speculative casino, that may see a very large increase in fiat based wealth, but does nothing for a bitcoin at its core.

[QuestionAuthority]

I've been reading your other posts and wondering when you would post something like this. You are using rationalizations based on fallacy to attempt to guide logic your direction. It won't work here. Better posters than you have tried and failed.  

It's ok OP. Daddy's got ya. It's all just a dream now back to sleep. Bitcoin can't hurt you anymore.

So much that's posted here is crap now that I just can't stop myself from making fun of it. I think I need a forum 12 Step Plan or something.

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

The goal is that, 1 satoshi needs to find its value that more or less represents 1 dollar. IE 1 BTC = 100,000,000$

in the beginning sweat equity is more or less slave labor, aside from fiat expenses agreed to be covered until farm becomes productive. I can then charge 5 satoshis for 1 pound of meat.

or 1 satoshi for a bundle of carrots.

I can hire labor for 1 satoshi an hour, as long as laborer harvests more than 40 satoshi's worth or produce/hour, I can employ him, be profitable, laborer can then send wages home as the wage itself was earned because productivity of the farm because of the bitcoin investment.

There's no need to reinvent the wheel. Bitcoin are bought and sold at rational market rates, right now.

I disagree that these prices are rational market rates. I will never argue with the market itself, as I beleive the market is always right, yet historically it is often wrong..(other global markets)

 These virtual currency(s) have a lot of untested waters to sail through.

[foggyb]

Self-contradict much?

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

Self-contradict much?

If you want a currency that cannot be debased, satoshi needs to be treated like 1 dollar. And this really drives the point that miners are central banks whos duty it is to inject capital into the markets. Otherwise its irrational beavertail trading. No big company will want to touch, and nor should it be allowed to obtain a bitcoin unless a miner agrees the corporation deserves it. IE treats its employees/customers fairly, fair value for it products, actually produces benefical services(goodbye weapons manufacturers/war)

If that ever happened I would trust bitcoin as a stable, strong, safe currency, aside from being a speculative casino with an unknown intrinsic value, as it is pegged to nothing.

[glendall]

I will never argue with the market itself, as I beleive the market is always right, yet historically it is often wrong..(other global markets)

Statements like these are sort of a red flag to me. If you make statements like this, there isn't much point in discussing topic with you in a thread (or any other), because you are not making logical points.   If 1+1=3 while 2+1=3 then it would be worthwhile for me to try to convince you of something.

(With the legitimate exception of a mistake made, or a typo....)

[franky1]

Good thing you made this important discovery that we all missed. Crap, well... Go ahead and send me all your worthless coins and I will see to it that they are disposed of. 

I am not a miner. The speculators(me) have a potential role to create an inflated value by buying bitcoins at an exchange as I think they might be worth something one day. But based on what I see already, they will not be once people realize there is no where to spend them.

If all you care about is the gold 2.0, understand the dollar wins! Similar to money, it is a tool, not a store of value.

You intend to buy btc at an exchange, but want others to hand you Thiers to cash out for your farm?

I guess you missed out the half a dozen routes you could have taken to not require bit coin investors.

Tip:
Find a cheap farm shop buy veg, sell veg...
Firstly compared to just speculatively buying coin direct from fiat, at let's say a high of $138. Buying just $90 of veg at wholesale price can be sold for profit to net you a whole bit coin.
Sell that bit coin for fiat. Get a return of over $130, after fee's. Rinse repeat, while you wait till next year to buy land, as its a bit late to buy land churn the soil, sow the seed to get a harvest complete by this summer.

So do some wholesale-retail  until winter so that your ready for buying land, to start growing next year, then next year you will have the service running, but becoming more self reliant on stock as oppose to buying in... which means less cashing out

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

I will never argue with the market itself, as I beleive the market is always right, yet historically it is often wrong..(other global markets)

Statements like these are sort of a red flag to me. If you make statements like this, there isn't much point in discussing topic with you in a thread (or any other), because you are not making logical points.   If 1+1=3 while 2+1=3 then it would be worthwhile for me to try to convince you of something.

(With the legitimate exception of mistake made, or a typo....)

I hear you and I a bit confused. I have been trading for years. If in 2007 the markets new what was going to happen 2 years later, it would not have traded up 14,500.  If you want to make money, follow the trend. If you want to make a point, argue with the market.

Clearly though the market was wrong. Yet its always right.

You for sure cannot put a kenysian economist in a room with a austrian economist and then expect them to agree. I have my philisophical beliefs of what I think bitcoin is ment to be used as, and then there is the reality outside my window.. or on my comp screen. I can not say I trust bitcoin to hold its value.

[Birdy]

I will never argue with the market itself, as I beleive the market is always right, yet historically it is often wrong..(other global markets)

Statements like these are sort of a red flag to me. If you make statements like this, there isn't much point in discussing topic with you in a thread (or any other), because you are not making logical points.   If 1+1=3 while 2+1=3 then it would be worthwhile for me to try to convince you of something.

(With the legitimate exception of mistake made, or a typo....)

I hear you and I a bit confused. I have been trading for years. If in 2007 the markets new what was going to happen 2 years later, it would not have traded up 14,500.  If you want to make money, follow the trend. If you want to make a point, argue with the market.

Clearly though the market was wrong. Yet its always right.

You for sure cannot put a kenysian economist in a room with a austrian economist and then expect them to agree. I have my philisophical beliefs of what I think bitcoin is ment to be used as, and then there is the reality outside my window.. or on my comp screen. I can not say I trust bitcoin to hold its value.

You contradict yourself in the same sentence.
If you aren't able to see that, then obviously you are not able to make any logical conclusions, thus discussing with you is completely useless.

[RodeoX]

I think many of the things you say aren't happening in the bitcoin economy are happening. Bitcoin is becoming huge with the investor set. It does have great utility and intrinsic value. I love that I can buy something with confidence from an untrusted source on the other side of the planet. And with negligible fees.
To say that bitcoin has no real value is going to be an uphill argument when speaking to people at these forums who have made tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars. I save some money every time I buy with bitcoin.
No value? How come I can buy gold bars and real estate with no value?

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

I will never argue with the market itself, as I beleive the market is always right, yet historically it is often wrong..(other global markets)

Statements like these are sort of a red flag to me. If you make statements like this, there isn't much point in discussing topic with you in a thread (or any other), because you are not making logical points.   If 1+1=3 while 2+1=3 then it would be worthwhile for me to try to convince you of something.

(With the legitimate exception of mistake made, or a typo....)

I hear you and I a bit confused. I have been trading for years. If in 2007 the markets new what was going to happen 2 years later, it would not have traded up 14,500.  If you want to make money, follow the trend. If you want to make a point, argue with the market.

Clearly though the market was wrong. Yet its always right.

You for sure cannot put a kenysian economist in a room with a austrian economist and then expect them to agree. I have my philisophical beliefs of what I think bitcoin is ment to be used as, and then there is the reality outside my window.. or on my comp screen. I can not say I trust bitcoin to hold its value.

You contradict yourself in the same sentence.
If you aren't able to see that, then obviously you are not able to make any logical conclusions, thus discussing with you is completely useless.

I am sorry I see what i said that contradictory. I would like to replace, convential market philosophy, is that the market is never wrong.... yet historically it is often wrong. IE if you began to short the market in 2004, techically you would be right based on reasons XYZ that are now very apparent today, yet, if you did not argue with the market, you could have made a killing between 2004-2007, only when the technicals indicated things have rolled over as volatility increased.  My conclusion, I do not trust the price of bitcoin to stay elevated, yet if the market technicals say its going higher, I will be long bitcoin.

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

I think many of the things you say aren't happening in the bitcoin economy are happening. Bitcoin is becoming huge with the investor set. It does have great utility and intrinsic value. I love that I can buy something with confidence from an untrusted source on the other side of the planet. And with negligible fees.
To say that bitcoin has no real value is going to be an uphill argument when speaking to people at these forums who have made tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars. I save some money every time I buy with bitcoin.
No value? How come I can buy gold bars and real estate with no value?

because the fed props up the value of houses. Gold.. well i do not understand golds place in this world yet. We might figure that one out in a few years.

[QuestionAuthority]

Where the fuck is cypherdoc when you need him? lol

[Geez]

You see, my actual goal is find investors to invest in a farm and produce worthy tangible items. So I would need a miner to invest bitcoin in me at a rate that is not worthless, but about 6-8$/btc

That is the laziest scam attempt, I have ever seen.

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

You see, my actual goal is find investors to invest in a farm and produce worthy tangible items. So I would need a miner to invest bitcoin in me at a rate that is not worthless, but about 6-8$/btc

That is the laziest scam attempt, I have ever seen.

Your logic is what prevents bitcoin from becoming what it needs to be. And it wasnt easy to mine the bitcoins, as soon as you learned of it, the logical race was scale up computing power. Electricity from the wall into millions of dollars. in a world in which millions to hundreds of millions = highest echelon. If that is  not lazy, idk what is..

Grant the Fed does this already, but the federal reserve played a major role the creation of the economy around us. If everyone of us had to front end the labor vs wealth, which is what they did, you get what we currently have. debt payed through slavery.

How hard do you want me to work in order to buy a farms worth of produce sustainably, consistently. Do you really just expect me to find a corporation, hand one of you miners hundreds of millions of dollars for your 'precious' coins to invest in a sustainable project. Especially if i am the government and i am force to just kick you off your property in order to cultivate it. And if they dont do that, who will.

Dark days lay ahead with your misguided attitude. Thank you also for attempting to cast me out of context.  Not that you do not make a fair point in the general mockery attitude that prevails far beyond just you, but the honest conversations with good intentions, hard, loyal work, is something that will pervade you. The potential beauty of bitcoin is that if forces these intelligent conversations to occur with the right and capable minds at work. Bitcoin has made wealth physically intangible, but that brings moral duty to make it sound money.

[CurbsideProphet]

OP,

Just yesterday you were printing up flyers and calling yourself a Bitcoin consultant.  Today, you've done a complete 180 and are now saying Bitcoin will fail.  Unless you can point to some fundamental change in Bitcoin over the last 24 hours or so, it sounds like you're just venting your personal failed endeavors, not Bitcoin.

[Geez]

You can already buy things with Bitcoin and more and more stores accept Bitcoin as a payment.
Nobody will give you Bitcoins so you can build your stupid farm. lol

[djalexr]

. I do not care about divisibilty as that is akin to inflation.

i hope the OP is a troll, posts like these make me lose faith in humanity!

[ThatDGuy]

. I do not care about divisibilty as that is akin to inflation.

i hope the OP is a troll, posts like these make me lose faith in humanity!

The weak hands will look back with regret some day.

If it makes you feel any better, BTC's growth and history so far gives me great hope for humanity

[wopwop]

. I do not care about divisibilty as that is akin to inflation.

i hope the OP is a troll, posts like these make me lose faith in humanity!

The weak hands will look back with regret some day.

If it makes you feel any better, BTC's growth and history so far gives me great hope for humanity

99,99% of ppl here are here only for greed, thats you included (you're implying you hold bitcoins to become rich by saying ppl who dont hold bitcoins will regret it, logically implying you're betting that its value in real terms will increase for your own good)

how's your hope for humanity now?

[SgtSpike]

I think OP has 420'd a few too many times.   

[TippingPoint]

<snip>

Learn to be still.

[ThatDGuy]

. I do not care about divisibilty as that is akin to inflation.

i hope the OP is a troll, posts like these make me lose faith in humanity!

The weak hands will look back with regret some day.

If it makes you feel any better, BTC's growth and history so far gives me great hope for humanity

99,99% of ppl here are here only for greed, thats you included (you're implying you hold bitcoins to become rich by saying ppl who dont hold bitcoins will regret it, logically implying you're betting that its value in real terms will increase for your own good)

how's your hope for humanity now?

Wow.

That's some amazing anecdotal evidence on the statistics you have there, thank you very much for enlightening me.  /s

If you honestly think greed is the only reason BTC is what it is today, you need to pay attention and read more.  A lot more.

Also, greed is hardly the only reason why I am here - it's a little something I like to call "not being a fucking idiot".

I believe in the underlying technology and it's potential for the future.  That is true.  If that is true, then it is logically implied that I want to have a part of it now.  This is for a plethora of reasons that, which you were unfortunately unable to divine.  

• I anticipate further adoption
• I have and will continue to use it, and encourage retailers to accept it
• I'm working with others on projects that utilize BTC
• Through using it, trading it, owning it I'm increasing my knowledge base about a very disruptive technology

I don't doubt that there's plenty of people here for greed, but for you to assume

99,99% of ppl here are here only for greed

says more about your own reasons than it does any other individual's - much less an entire community.

[wopwop]

. I do not care about divisibilty as that is akin to inflation.

i hope the OP is a troll, posts like these make me lose faith in humanity!

The weak hands will look back with regret some day.

If it makes you feel any better, BTC's growth and history so far gives me great hope for humanity

99,99% of ppl here are here only for greed, thats you included (you're implying you hold bitcoins to become rich by saying ppl who dont hold bitcoins will regret it, logically implying you're betting that its value in real terms will increase for your own good)

how's your hope for humanity now?

Wow.

That's some amazing anecdotal evidence on the statistics you have there, thank you very much for enlightening me.  /s

If you honestly think greed is the only reason BTC is what it is today, you need to pay attention and read more.  A lot more.

Also, greed is hardly the only reason why I am here - it's a little something I like to call "not being a fucking idiot".

I believe in the underlying technology and it's potential for the future.  That is true.  If that is true, then it is logically implied that I want to have a part of it now.  This is for a plethora of reasons that, which you were unfortunately unable to divine.  

• I anticipate further adoption
• I have and will continue to use it, and encourage retailers to accept it
• I'm working with others on projects that utilize BTC
• Through using it, trading it, owning it I'm increasing my knowledge base about a very disruptive technology

I don't doubt that there's plenty of people here for greed, but for you to assume

99,99% of ppl here are here only for greed

says more about your own reasons than it does any other individual's - much less an entire community.

Lol 3 of your 4 reasons start with 'I' and the fourth one's about yourself too. Now I just have an even more increased feeling you're just here for yourself.




offnote:
'disruptive technology' lol. This is an upcoming hype word thats going mainstream!

[ThatDGuy]

. I do not care about divisibilty as that is akin to inflation.

i hope the OP is a troll, posts like these make me lose faith in humanity!

The weak hands will look back with regret some day.

If it makes you feel any better, BTC's growth and history so far gives me great hope for humanity

99,99% of ppl here are here only for greed, thats you included (you're implying you hold bitcoins to become rich by saying ppl who dont hold bitcoins will regret it, logically implying you're betting that its value in real terms will increase for your own good)

how's your hope for humanity now?

Wow.

That's some amazing anecdotal evidence on the statistics you have there, thank you very much for enlightening me.  /s

If you honestly think greed is the only reason BTC is what it is today, you need to pay attention and read more.  A lot more.

Also, greed is hardly the only reason why I am here - it's a little something I like to call "not being a fucking idiot".

I believe in the underlying technology and it's potential for the future.  That is true.  If that is true, then it is logically implied that I want to have a part of it now.  This is for a plethora of reasons that, which you were unfortunately unable to divine.  

• I anticipate further adoption
• I have and will continue to use it, and encourage retailers to accept it
• I'm working with others on projects that utilize BTC
• Through using it, trading it, owning it I'm increasing my knowledge base about a very disruptive technology

I don't doubt that there's plenty of people here for greed, but for you to assume

99,99% of ppl here are here only for greed

says more about your own reasons than it does any other individual's - much less an entire community.

Lol 3 of your 4 reasons start with 'I' and the fourth one's about yourself too. Now I just have an even more increased feeling you're just here for yourself.




offnote:
'disruptive technology' lol. This is an upcoming hype word thats going mainstream!

I was giving you other reasons as to why -I- am here, in an (apparently vain) attempt to correct your flawed judgement based on minimal-to-little evidence.

The term Disruptive Technology has been around since the 90's.

[BTConomist]

Go ahead and send me all your worthless coins and I will see to it that they are disposed of.  

Let's just hope you'll be faster than the next guy to catch OP's bitcoins on the downslopes.

P.S. Apparently, I'm not the only one working on the vaccine against the GOLD 2.0 bug. 

[weisoq]

99,99% of ppl here are here only for greed, thats you included (you're implying you hold bitcoins to become rich by saying ppl who dont hold bitcoins will regret it, logically implying you're betting that its value in real terms will increase for your own good)

how's your hope for humanity now?

Indeed. Bitcoin will eventually be usurped by another blockchain, and that by another etc until there is a collective effort to formulate a less-pyramid like system. Either that or the crypto of the day will simply serve as a means for facilitating transactions of other currencies and assets that do not suffer the inverse pass-the-parcel method. This was completely inevitable from the start.

[nameface]

But I thought Bitcoin was money for the Internet? Why do you wanna buy farms IRL? Do you mean Farmville? I'm completely lost.

Bitcoin is here to replace fiat.

Meh.

All I can say is: I hope it does, but I don't see it happening.

[ThatDGuy]

99,99% of ppl here are here only for greed, thats you included (you're implying you hold bitcoins to become rich by saying ppl who dont hold bitcoins will regret it, logically implying you're betting that its value in real terms will increase for your own good)

how's your hope for humanity now?

Indeed. Bitcoin will eventually be usurped by another blockchain, and that by another etc until there is a collective effort to formulate a less-pyramid like system. Either that or the crypto of the day will simply serve as a means for facilitating transactions of other currencies and assets that do not suffer the inverse pass-the-parcel method. This was completely inevitable from the start.

I would argue that wopwop is closer to correct about the greed statement when it comes to the alternate cryptocurrencies forum here.

[weisoq]

I would argue that wopwop is closer to correct about the greed statement when it comes to the alternate cryptocurrencies forum here.

Quite possibly, but it mostly amounts to the same thing. A fantastic concept that because it also offers lead-in gains means it will be replicated. No rational observer group would adopt bitcoin, they'd found their own and start at the top of the tree. This is what's happening, and it will keep happening beyond bitcointalk.

[BTConomist]

Hint: miners have no control over the rate of generation, the exchange rate or the velocity of the bitcoin economy (which is comparably high).

Looks like your beehive should be the next one on my list to visit... So, tell me, just how succulent are your honecombs and what flowers are used to enhance your fake honey with such exquisite flavor? BTW, do you still remember the bid walls of 2011 crash? Didn't they look something like this?

[Elwar]

Thank you for adding the 420 in your name. It took me a while to realize that FinShaggy's ramblings were just that of a stoner with wild dreams not grounded in reality.

Bitcoin will fail because you want someone to fund your dream of growing organic tofu and nobody is going to give you BTC for $4/BTC. Damn greedy miners.

You do not need $500,000 for a farm to feed 100 people. Start small with a garden in your back yard and create a CSA subscription at http://www.localharvest.org and only take bitcoins for member payments. Upon success, buy a larger lot and continue to grow.

Or sit in your basement getting stoned.

I fully support people's choice to smoke pot, but I do not have to support the insanity that comes with it.

[Elwar]

If there is no real underlying value to bitcoin, eventually it will drop much closer to the actual cost of producing a bitcoin, whatever that may be

The actual cost of producing a bitcoin is currently around $90/BTC and climbing as more ASICs hit the market.

https://blockchain.info/stats

[BTConomist]

The actual cost of producing a bitcoin is currently around $90/BTC and climbing as more ASICs hit the market.

Sure, but only if you're still using legacy mining rigs... What are the speculators for if not to help you keep your mining equipment current?

[Elwar]

The actual cost of producing a bitcoin is currently around $90/BTC and climbing as more ASICs hit the market.

Sure, but only if you're still using legacy mining rigs... What are the speculators for if not to help you keep your mining equipment current?

Well, when it comes down to it...if you are choosing between buying BTC now or paying for a rig that will cost you $90/BTC you have to remember that by the time you get your mining hardware the difficulty will be a lot higher and the cost could be over $130/BTC.

I personally will not order an ASIC because by the time I get it the return on my investment may be lower than if I just buy BTC now.

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

Thank you for adding the 420 in your name. It took me a while to realize that FinShaggy's ramblings were just that of a stoner with wild dreams not grounded in reality.

Bitcoin will fail because you want someone to fund your dream of growing organic tofu and nobody is going to give you BTC for $4/BTC. Damn greedy miners.

You do not need $500,000 for a farm to feed 100 people. Start small with a garden in your back yard and create a CSA subscription at http://www.localharvest.org and only take bitcoins for member payments. Upon success, buy a larger lot and continue to grow.

Or sit in your basement getting stoned.

I fully support people's choice to smoke pot, but I do not have to support the insanity that comes with it.

 I am not FINSHAGGY!

[alyssa85]

Good thing you made this important discovery that we all missed. Crap, well... Go ahead and send me all your worthless coins and I will see to it that they are disposed of. 

I am not a miner. The speculators(me) have a potential role to create an inflated value by buying bitcoins at an exchange as I think they might be worth something one day. But based on what I see already, they will not be once people realize there is no where to spend them.

If all you care about is the gold 2.0, understand the dollar wins! Similar to money, it is a tool, not a store of value.

You intend to buy btc at an exchange, but want others to hand you Thiers to cash out for your farm?

I guess you missed out the half a dozen routes you could have taken to not require bit coin investors.

Tip:
Find a cheap farm shop buy veg, sell veg...
Firstly compared to just speculatively buying coin direct from fiat, at let's say a high of $138. Buying just $90 of veg at wholesale price can be sold for profit to net you a whole bit coin.
Sell that bit coin for fiat. Get a return of over $130, after fee's. Rinse repeat, while you wait till next year to buy land, as its a bit late to buy land churn the soil, sow the seed to get a harvest complete by this summer.

So do some wholesale-retail  until winter so that your ready for buying land, to start growing next year, then next year you will have the service running, but becoming more self reliant on stock as oppose to buying in... which means less cashing out

He isn't behaving that differently from you, you know. He's looking for bitcoin investors to help start-up his farm. You and others are looking to Silicon-Valley+Wall Street to come up with solutions that enable Bitcoins to be spent.

Why the hostility to finding start-up capital from within the community in coins?

You seem to be imagining that it will make existing bitcoiners poor. But eventually all wealth flows towards those who supply venture/start-up capital. They don't view it as "handing over money", but instead as a stake in a profitable venture. They end up owning the world, leaving the hoarders for dust.

Personally I like the idea of a farm where you can buy food direct for cryptocoins, by-passing the supermarkets. But it's not a "sexy" venture that will attract fiat venture capital - so it either raises funding from within the community or doesn't happen at all. OP's other alternative is raising money from the traditional banks - can you imagine how that conversation will go? Not to mention him having to constantly cash out the BTC he earns to pay fiat interest, fees, etc, instead of keeping the BTC within the BTC economy. Fiat wins...

[BTConomist]

You can't change Bitcoin in that manner you can only fork it.

And what does one need to fork a bitcoin block chain? 

[BTConomist]

What I have seen in the past two years is an endless stream haters and attackers. Despite their efforts bitcoin is stronger now than ever, and still growing stronger.
  

The only thing that's growing stronger are the bid walls... Look at this one... She's a beauty, ain't she?

[BTConomist]

The speculation is a relatively recent phenomena in bitcoin.
   

As far as I can remember, the speculation was rampant in 2011 and 2012 as well... There was a time when I even had to pull out my wizard hat in order to chase off the fake honey bees.

[Elwar]

OP's other alternative is raising money from the traditional banks - can you imagine how that conversation will go?

CtrlAltBernanke420: Hi, I need half a million dollars to start an organic farm so I can sell food to people.
Bank: Ok, what is your business plan? What will you use as collateral? What is your farming experience? How many other successful businesses do you have? Would you be willing to put down 20% ($100,000) toward the loan? Let me check your credit score and credit history. What is your current salary? Can you show proof of past history that would justify the returns you expect to be able to pay back $500,000?

or...

CtrlAltBernanke420: Hi, I need 3850 bitcoins to start an organic farm so I can sell food to people in exchange for bitcoins!
Bitcoin investor: Ok, what is your business plan? What will you use as collateral? What is your farming experience? How many other successful businesses do you have? Would you be willing to put down 20% (770BTC) toward the loan? Let me check your credit score and credit history. What is your current salary? Can you show proof of past history that would justify the returns you expect to be able to pay back 3850 bitcoins?
CtrlAltBernanke420: I will pay you $6/BTC for 3850 bitcoins.

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

Good thing you made this important discovery that we all missed. Crap, well... Go ahead and send me all your worthless coins and I will see to it that they are disposed of. 

I am not a miner. The speculators(me) have a potential role to create an inflated value by buying bitcoins at an exchange as I think they might be worth something one day. But based on what I see already, they will not be once people realize there is no where to spend them.

If all you care about is the gold 2.0, understand the dollar wins! Similar to money, it is a tool, not a store of value.

You intend to buy btc at an exchange, but want others to hand you Thiers to cash out for your farm?

I guess you missed out the half a dozen routes you could have taken to not require bit coin investors.

Tip:
Find a cheap farm shop buy veg, sell veg...
Firstly compared to just speculatively buying coin direct from fiat, at let's say a high of $138. Buying just $90 of veg at wholesale price can be sold for profit to net you a whole bit coin.
Sell that bit coin for fiat. Get a return of over $130, after fee's. Rinse repeat, while you wait till next year to buy land, as its a bit late to buy land churn the soil, sow the seed to get a harvest complete by this summer.

So do some wholesale-retail  until winter so that your ready for buying land, to start growing next year, then next year you will have the service running, but becoming more self reliant on stock as oppose to buying in... which means less cashing out

He isn't behaving that differently from you, you know. He's looking for bitcoin investors to help start-up his farm. You and others are looking to Silicon-Valley+Wall Street to come up with solutions that enable Bitcoins to be spent.

Why the hostility to finding start-up capital from within the community in coins?

You seem to be imagining that it will make existing bitcoiners poor. But eventually all wealth flows towards those who supply venture/start-up capital. They don't view it as "handing over money", but instead as a stake in a profitable venture. They end up owning the world, leaving the hoarders for dust.

Personally I like the idea of a farm where you can buy food direct for cryptocoins, by-passing the supermarkets. But it's not a "sexy" venture that will attract fiat venture capital - so it either raises funding from within the community or doesn't happen at all. OP's other alternative is raising money from the traditional banks - can you imagine how that conversation will go? Not to mention him having to constantly cash out the BTC he earns to pay fiat interest, fees, etc, instead of keeping the BTC within the BTC economy. Fiat wins...

Thank you!

I have a ton of other idea that will actually get a bitcoin economy flowing quickly. No one else is focused on the hard work required building an economy. <-- most of you think I am asking for free handout. You would be more naive than any. She "gets it"

The VC who help carve out the path, win 10-fold, that has been my orginal thesis, otherwise bitcoin never really goes much higher. Even it makes it to $1000/btc, Its still chump change to the economy. Again, with out a single satoshi having a value near that of a dollar, but how is that obtained.

I am beginning to realize I am on point! You 'hoarders' are digging your own wealth grave.

If anyone understand what has happened to farmers over the past 50 years, they were told, or they needed to update their machinery, the only option was to go the "miners" or "banks" to get cash distributed, to grow an economy.. Unfortunately, debt basically means they will eventually be filing for bankruptcy, and lose their farm, only for the mega giants to swoop in a take it for pennies on the dollar. Keep hoarding, speculation is only soo strong of a force until it destroys you.

Bitcoin is debt free!

If you keep focusing on the tippy top point of the future, money, greed, technology, if things do not go as planned, american specifically are screwed.

During the collapse of the soviet union, things were not as bad as they could have been, and or will be in america, because most russians farmed..

And you think I am trying to scam you guys out of a few coins you minted with electricity from your wall. Ya, really hard work. So far most of your logic is lining to be that of a wall street day trader who provides nothing to society, before you know it, all your going to hear a loud sucking sound, known in the industry as a vaccum.

[jubalix]

I *agree* please send me your bitcoins, with give you $1 each.

also money velocity, you have not idea

once out that's just transaction rate between everyone, miners are irelevant, 1 bit coin can be split into 10^8 parts thus enough bitcoins out already to run many times the world economy

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

OP's other alternative is raising money from the traditional banks - can you imagine how that conversation will go?

CtrlAltBernanke420: Hi, I need half a million dollars to start an organic farm so I can sell food to people.
Bank: Ok, what is your business plan? What will you use as collateral? What is your farming experience? How many other successful businesses do you have? Would you be willing to put down 20% ($100,000) toward the loan? Let me check your credit score and credit history. What is your current salary? Can you show proof of past history that would justify the returns you expect to be able to pay back $500,000?

or...

CtrlAltBernanke420: Hi, I need 3850 bitcoins to start an organic farm so I can sell food to people in exchange for bitcoins!
Bitcoin investor: Ok, what is your business plan? What will you use as collateral? What is your farming experience? How many other successful businesses do you have? Would you be willing to put down 20% (770BTC) toward the loan? Let me check your credit score and credit history. What is your current salary? Can you show proof of past history that would justify the returns you expect to be able to pay back 3850 bitcoins?
CtrlAltBernanke420: I will pay you $6/BTC for 3850 bitcoins.

I am not sure VC are always looking for a return for every dollar spent on a specific task. IE, no one makes money from marketing, no consumers pay to see advertisments. But, they are worth the dolling out, to get the return on the underlying product they are selling.

I do not plan to actually pay back 3850 BTC. But I do intend on making whatever bitcoins you have left, to be worth much more, because they are redeemable for food. A staple in human life. The beauty, again of bitcoins, is the wealth they hold, is physically intangible.

[BTConomist]

If I want to start a bitcoin based store, it requires me to purchase all tangibles in fiat. This only supports the dollar economy.

Point well-made!

Now, where are da bees at?
(quietly pulls out his wizard hat and sniffs around)

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

I *agree* please send me your bitcoins, with give you $1 each.

also money velocity, you have not idea

once out that's just transaction rate between everyone, miners are irelevant, 1 bit coin can be split into 10^8 parts thus enough bitcoins out already to run many times the world economy

There are roughly 3 billion people in the world with access to internet. It would require 30 bitcoins to give everyone a single satoshi.

That is a reallllly good investment for 30 bitcoins.

[Elwar]

I am not sure VC are always looking for a return for every dollar spent on a specific task. IE, no one makes money from marketing, no consumers pay to see advertisments. But, they are worth the dolling out, to get the return on the underlying product they are selling.

Ya, that is the whole point of venture capital. They invest in your company early on when your company is in the early stages so that they can get a large share of your business so that if your business is successful they will get big returns. Almost like mining or buying bitcoins in the early stages so that the share is larger if it takes off.

It is a speculative gamble of buying low, hoarding your shares and then selling high.

I do not plan to actually pay back 3850 BTC. But I do intend on making whatever bitcoins you have left, to be worth much more, because they are redeemable for food. A staple in human life. The beauty, again of bitcoins, is the wealth they hold, is physically intangible.

So you want money to spend on something so that we can all benefit from the existence of your business? How kind of you.

I can buy food with bitcoins in several places. Amazon, Burger King, Applebees, Sams Club, etc.

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

I am not sure VC are always looking for a return for every dollar spent on a specific task. IE, no one makes money from marketing, no consumers pay to see advertisments. But, they are worth the dolling out, to get the return on the underlying product they are selling.

Ya, that is the whole point of venture capital. They invest in your company early on when your company is in the early stages so that they can get a large share of your business so that if your business is successful they will get big returns. Almost like mining or buying bitcoins in the early stages so that the share is larger if it takes off.

It is a speculative gamble of buying low, hoarding your shares and then selling high.

I do not plan to actually pay back 3850 BTC. But I do intend on making whatever bitcoins you have left, to be worth much more, because they are redeemable for food. A staple in human life. The beauty, again of bitcoins, is the wealth they hold, is physically intangible.

So you want money to spend on something so that we can all benefit from the existence of your business? How kind of you.

I can buy food with bitcoins in several places. Amazon, Burger King, Applebees, Sams Club, etc.

Let me sell you a life insurance policy please... You will die young, i make some money!!! With my farm, you gain good health. Another intangible. Another point in life that require discipline, sacrafice.


How is paying for marketing profitable? Marketing, commercials, adverts, in and of themselves are not profitable. Marketing is a money pit for businesses, but often necessary if they want their product to get known.

[Elwar]

I actually bought some organic dog food for my dogs with bitcoins last month.

It did not raise the price of bitcoin one bit.

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

I actually bought some organic dog food for my dogs with bitcoins last month.

It did not raise the price of bitcoin one bit.

You should know the peoples names who grow the food you eat. You should have at least met them once.. They are noble people. You, i am not so sure. Your judgement day is coming.

[Elwar]

I actually bought some organic dog food for my dogs with bitcoins last month.

It did not raise the price of bitcoin one bit.

You should know the peoples names who grow the food you eat. You should have at least met them once..

That would limit me to buying something locally. That limits my choices. And your $500,000 to 'help bitcoin' would only help local people in your area to be able to purchase food with bitcoins.

Hell, even FinShaggy asked for $2 million and in exchange for your $10k investment you got a piece of land, a house, computer and a TV.

[BTConomist]

either you are a very smart delusional, or just delusional. How does a new bitcoin fork change anything, sounds like a scam.

Ok here the steps:
1. Some government tries to buy up all the Bitcoins, so they pump millions after millions in it

Why should governments buy when they can just mine? And while they're at it, why not amass 51% of the mining power to fork a block chain to one's liking?

You seem to underestimate the power of the masses, my friend... If you didn't know, governments were designed to represent the masses, including the interests of corporations. When taking into account millions upon millions that are being represented, pennies can add up to a nice chunk of dough, even enough to buy every mining rig out there, ASIC-based or not. Did I say buy?... Sorry, I meant confiscate.

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

either you are a very smart delusional, or just delusional. How does a new bitcoin fork change anything, sounds like a scam.

Ok here the steps:
1. Some government tries to buy up all the Bitcoins, so they pump millions after millions in it

Why should governments buy when they can just mine? And while they're at it, why not amass 51% of the mining power to fork a block chain to one's liking?

You seem to underestimate the power of the masses, my friend... If you didn't know, governments were designed to represent the masses, including the interests of corporations. When taking into account millions upon millions that are being represented, pennies can add up to a nice chunk of dough, even enough to buy every mining rig out there, ASIC-based or not. Did I say buy? Sorry, I meant to say confiscate!

As mentioned as Bitcoin 2013, it was very difficult for ?butterfly labs? to get a chip maker to work with them because they NEED to know someone or else no one will even talk to them... The US govt, I do not think has this problem.

[ralree]

Good thing you made this important discovery that we all missed. Crap, well... Go ahead and send me all your worthless coins and I will see to it that they are disposed of. 

I am not a miner. The speculators(me) have a potential role to create an inflated value by buying bitcoins at an exchange as I think they might be worth something one day. But based on what I see already, they will not be once people realize there is no where to spend them.

If all you care about is the gold 2.0, understand the dollar wins! Similar to money, it is a tool, not a store of value.

Yeah it's like when gold became worthless years ago!  Since nobody denominates their economy in it, no one wants it, so now that it's $2-4 per ounce, it's fair value.

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

Good thing you made this important discovery that we all missed. Crap, well... Go ahead and send me all your worthless coins and I will see to it that they are disposed of. 

I am not a miner. The speculators(me) have a potential role to create an inflated value by buying bitcoins at an exchange as I think they might be worth something one day. But based on what I see already, they will not be once people realize there is no where to spend them.

If all you care about is the gold 2.0, understand the dollar wins! Similar to money, it is a tool, not a store of value.

Yeah it's like when gold became worthless years ago!  Since nobody denominates their economy in it, no one wants it, so now that it's $2-4 per ounce, it's fair value.

Dollar wins dollar wins dollar wins!

[RodeoX]

Just wanted to add that in today's economy it is the Yen that wins, not the dollar.

Also it looks like my farmer is going to start taking bitcoin. I am very involved with community supported agriculture here and working to help farmers produce with BTC. Next I will work on their suppliers. Baby steps.