bustadice – Next Generation Dice

[RHavar]

There is no way for a game to be guaranteed or provable fair to investors.

I don't understand why you would put yourself in such a sticky spot on purpose?

Important: There is no guarantee to investors on provably fair sites because the owner can still play within the rules and "beat you fairly".  These sites are only proveably fair to players... NOT investors, it isn't possible to prove.  Unless I'm outside on something new.

Actually there is, and bustadice has it implemented!

I made a high-level overview of how it works here: https://gist.github.com/RHavar/285c295f7906e03369cd66580a1b5f45 and you can check bustadice for the actual nitty details.  But the tldr; version is that there's two server seeds. I know one, Daniel knows one. He can't "play against the house" because he doesn't know the seed I'm using.


I do think you're right about putting myself in a sticky spot though. But more due to me being one of the 2-of-3 key holders for BaD's cold storage. I originally did this because as I can audit the game results, I could check and see if there was any funny business, I can refuse to process transactions from cold storage.

But after thinking a bit more about attack vectors, I realize there's something I didn't think of earlier: Daniel could fake a bank-run. Maybe intentionally get some bad publicity, then act like almost all investors have divested (e.g. 90%) and then he tells me to sign the transaction, because he needs to pay investors back. Since I can only audit game results, and there's no cheating on the game results there's nothing I can say. And then instead of paying investors, he just puts it in his pocket and exit scams.

So I believe I can state with a high amount of certainty that the stats on bustadice.com are legitimate and importantly all big investor wins are totally legitimate.

And while there's a lot of benefit in Daniel not being able to undetectably rip off investors, the cool thing is actually the guarantees I provide Daniel. Let's say I got hacked, there's nothing I can really do (by design). And if Daniel got hacked ...  just knowing Daniel's server-seed is not enough to predict games, so the attacker would not be able to undetectably cheat. Which I think is a huge deal. I remember always my biggest fear running a casino is that my system got compromised and someone was able to feign being lucky whale(s) and just draining the site dry.


Anyway, it's a super cool system. I've even considered offering it as a service (auditor-as-a-service) but I've been a bit busy to build such a thing.

[JollyGood]

There is no way for a game to be guaranteed or provable fair to investors.

I don't understand why you would put yourself in such a sticky spot on purpose?

Important: There is no guarantee to investors on provably fair sites because the owner can still play within the rules and "beat you fairly".  These sites are only proveably fair to players... NOT investors, it isn't possible to prove.  Unless I'm outside on something new.

Actually there is, and bustadice has it implemented!

I made a high-level overview of how it works here: https://gist.github.com/RHavar/285c295f7906e03369cd66580a1b5f45 and you can check bustadice for the actual nitty details.  But the tldr; version is that there's two server seeds. I know one, Daniel knows one. He can't "play against the house" because he doesn't know the seed I'm using.


I do think you're right about putting myself in a sticky spot though. But more due to me being one of the 2-of-3 key holders for BaD's cold storage. I originally did this because as I can audit the game results, I could check and see if there was any funny business, I can refuse to process transactions from cold storage.

But after thinking a bit more about attack vectors, I realize there's something I didn't think of earlier: Daniel could fake a bank-run. Maybe intentionally get some bad publicity, then act like almost all investors have divested (e.g. 90%) and then he tells me to sign the transaction, because he needs to pay investors back. Since I can only audit game results, and there's no cheating on the game results there's nothing I can say. And then instead of paying investors, he just puts it in his pocket and exit scams.

So I believe I can state with a high amount of certainty that the stats on bustadice.com are legitimate and importantly all big investor wins are totally legitimate.

And while there's a lot of benefit in Daniel not being able to undetectably rip off investors, the cool thing is actually the guarantees I provide Daniel. Let's say I got hacked, there's nothing I can really do (by design). And if Daniel got hacked ...  just knowing Daniel's server-seed is not enough to predict games, so the attacker would not be able to undetectably cheat. Which I think is a huge deal. I remember always my biggest fear running a casino is that my system got compromised and someone was able to feign being lucky whale(s) and just draining the site dry.


Anyway, it's a super cool system. I've even considered offering it as a service (auditor-as-a-service) but I've been a bit busy to build such a thing.

Now this seems a highly attractive feature. Has any website used anything like this before?

[RHavar]

Now this seems a highly attractive feature. Has any website used anything like this before?

Not that I'm aware of. Although I'll add it's only suitable for some games. For instance it'd never work in bustabit, because the server needs to know the game outcome (bust) before players are finished making decisions (e.g. they can cashout in real time).

But if I ever got back into gambling (which I have no intention of...) there's no way I'd do it without such a system. The piece of mind knowing wins are legitimate is huge.

[JollyGood]

Now this seems a highly attractive feature. Has any website used anything like this before?

Not that I'm aware of. Although I'll add it's only suitable for some games. For instance it'd never work in bustabit, because the server needs to know the game outcome (bust) before players are finished making decisions (e.g. they can cashout in real time).

But if I ever got back into gambling (which I have no intention of...) there's no way I'd do it without such a system. The piece of mind knowing wins are legitimate is huge.

Though it is definitely a trust increasing facility it would be almost lost on most gaming scenarios as in any outcome the result cannot be known in advance (dice, roulette, etc)

Nice work though and a great concept to come up with.

I wonder in which scenarios something like that could be best utilised or implemented

[arpon11]

Glad to see this site doing well.

I am happy this sites is doing well too.  I just opened account with my friend who is a gambler and he is winning some Wager.  I could have buy this script to establish a gambling business in my country iF I have deep knowledge on how gambling sites and betting sites works.  Hope the team keep the good jobs!

[BayAreaCoins]

Actually there is, and bustadice has it implemented!

Read through everything... I still don't believe it is provably fair for investors, but it seems more like layering.

Layers help, but they don't make it mathematically fair for investors still.  I suppose it does make it fair for you though?

BUT couldn't an owner just physically plug into the box (server) and gg you still?

[JollyGood]

Actually there is, and bustadice has it implemented!

Read through everything... I still don't believe it is provably fair for investors, but it seems more like layering.

Layers help, but they don't make it mathematically fair for investors still.  I suppose it does make it fair for you though?

BUT couldn't an owner just physically plug into the box (server) and gg you still?

Did you read about the attack that stole over 122 BTC from the Crash game at Bustabit?

You might want to make sure you are not vulnerable since you are operating a copy that was modified.

[BayAreaCoins]

Actually there is, and bustadice has it implemented!

Read through everything... I still don't believe it is provably fair for investors, but it seems more like layering.

Layers help, but they don't make it mathematically fair for investors still.  I suppose it does make it fair for you though?

BUT couldn't an owner just physically plug into the box (server) and gg you still?

Did you read about the attack that stole over 122 BTC from the Crash game at Bustabit?

You might want to make sure you are not vulnerable since you are operating a copy that was modified.

Nah, we aren't.  All good on this end of the stick.  If we would have bought a copy or used the Open Source recommended by Devan... I believe we would have been vulnerable, but we didn't.

[rammy2k2]

Hey, glad to hear that you took action as professionals and reviewed your script for bugs and security flaws.
That shows seriosity and that you take players safety and yours very serious.
Keep up the good work bustadice team !

[JollyGood]

Actually there is, and bustadice has it implemented!

Read through everything... I still don't believe it is provably fair for investors, but it seems more like layering.

Layers help, but they don't make it mathematically fair for investors still.  I suppose it does make it fair for you though?

BUT couldn't an owner just physically plug into the box (server) and gg you still?

Did you read about the attack that stole over 122 BTC from the Crash game at Bustabit?

You might want to make sure you are not vulnerable since you are operating a copy that was modified.

Nah, we aren't.  All good on this end of the stick.  If we would have bought a copy or used the Open Source recommended by Devan... I believe we would have been vulnerable, but we didn't.

Good to know you are a step ahead

[RHavar]

Read through everything... I still don't believe it is provably fair for investors, but it seems more like layering.

Layers help, but they don't make it mathematically fair for investors still.  I suppose it does make it fair for you though?

Yeah, you're right. I believe from my perspective it's completely provably fair, and I'm an investor. And running the audit server doesn't allow me to cheat, so no one needs to trust me. But if someone trusts me, they can trust that I verified the games. And if they don't trust me (which i think should be the default position) it's the same as a normal investment scheme anyway.


But the real cool thing is the security guarantees it offers. The security disaster that happened today on bustabit, couldn't have have happened on bustadice cause of the system. As even a total compromise of the server-seed isn't enough to predict rolls (Unless I was the attacker... )

[upsidedown75]

I can totally understand why "not trusting" is the default position but give me a break, you are RHavar, if I need to trust anyone, like gun to my head pick someone there is only 2 people in the whole casino world that I can trust with my eyes closed, stunna and you.

So, if you tell me everything is okay I would not get scared, if I am in a building that caught on fire and everywhere around me is in flames and you come up and tell me "don't worry everything is under control" I would sit back on my PC and continue gambling and not care about the flames knowing that you will take care of it. It is of course sad to see what happened in bustabit but this is casino world and sometimes those things happen, short term setback but long term profit for anyone who invest when others are out.

[DeadCoin]

I can totally understand why "not trusting" is the default position but give me a break, you are RHavar, if I need to trust anyone, like gun to my head pick someone there is only 2 people in the whole casino world that I can trust with my eyes closed, stunna and you.

So, if you tell me everything is okay I would not get scared, if I am in a building that caught on fire and everywhere around me is in flames and you come up and tell me "don't worry everything is under control" I would sit back on my PC and continue gambling and not care about the flames knowing that you will take care of it. It is of course sad to see what happened in bustabit but this is casino world and sometimes those things happen, short term setback but long term profit for anyone who invest when others are out.

Have tried my luck and yes, have gained profits as well. The best casino site i played with. Seriously guts needed to take risk and play with lots of money not worrying of loosing it.  

[StackGambler]

It appears that the bustadice game server is currently down (I was in-game and I got a "lost connection to server" message, and on refreshing, nothing is loading). Similar reports from other players on my Discord server. Just posting here in case any other player checks -- it's not your Internet, it's the server!

[devans]

It appears that the bustadice game server is currently down (I was in-game and I got a "lost connection to server" message, and on refreshing, nothing is loading). Similar reports from other players on my Discord server. Just posting here in case any other player checks -- it's not your Internet, it's the server!

I'm looking into what the problem is right now and will restart the server ASAP.

[devans]

The problem turned out to be just a minor hardware issue. I've fixed the issue and bustadice is back online.

[leen93]

https://bustadice.com/player/Hunter

his 2nd 'bigger' bet is so lucky. and then risking everything you earned on the next risky bet doesnt look a thing most people would do. is there a way server seed could have been compromised. is this really 100% for sure just luck?

[RHavar]

his 2nd 'bigger' bet is so lucky. and then risking everything you earned on the next risky bet doesnt look a thing most people would do. is there a way server seed could have been compromised. is this really 100% for sure just luck?

I've verified the bets, and I can confirm he did indeed win that. Which means either:

a) Daniel and I have both been compromised [1]
b) He was lucky



[1] By "compromised" I mean either "acting dishonestly" or "have been hacked". If I hacked Daniel for instance, that would count as both compromised. (me for being dishonest, Daniel for losing his server seed).  But if only 1 of us were compromised, the other one should be seeing the games aren't verifying.


I hate to be over-confident (I always feel like I'm jinxing reality), but I'd say there's probably a >99.999% chance that the win is legitimate.

[BenCodie]

his 2nd 'bigger' bet is so lucky. and then risking everything you earned on the next risky bet doesnt look a thing most people would do. is there a way server seed could have been compromised. is this really 100% for sure just luck?

I've verified the bets, and I can confirm he did indeed win that. Which means either:

a) Daniel and I have both been compromised [1]
b) He was lucky



[1] By "compromised" I mean either "acting dishonestly" or "have been hacked". If I hacked Daniel for instance, that would count as both compromised. (me for being dishonest, Daniel for losing his server seed).  But if only 1 of us were compromised, the other one should be seeing the games aren't verifying.


I hate to be over-confident (I always feel like I'm jinxing reality), but I'd say there's probably a >99.999% chance that the win is legitimate.

690 bets of sizes below 100k satoshi...then, suddenly he 2500x's his tiny amount catapulting to over 9BTC, then plays THE ENTIRE 9.784BTC in winnings in THE VERY NEXT BET for a total of 47~ BTC profit
He then loses 12BTC following spin and stops after this.

Do you understand how unlikely this is, in reality?

And of course...as BAC said, there is no way to prove if this was an inside job or not, everyone just has to trust your words that it wasn't you.

[DarkStar_]

And of course...as BAC said, there is no way to prove if this was an inside job or not, everyone just has to trust your words that it wasn't you.

The good news with bustadice's system is that you don't have to trust RHavar. He needs to collude with devans to cheat, which is much better than having a single point of failure without any real accountability.