bustadice – Next Generation Dice

[RHavar]

I don't know if it depends on the type of VPN but whenever i try to access bustadice when I have forgotten to turn off my VPN especially if the IP address is off a restricted country. This is what i get and it goes on forever. I always thought it was a way of avoiding people who use VPN from accessing bustadice.

It most likely isn't because a VPN per-se, but rather that the IP address has been involved in DoS attacks and thus restricted somehow. Quite frequently people use (poorly managed?) VPNs for the purpose of DoS'ing, so it's hard to do much other than just block those IPs. I remember back when I had a site, I really tried hard to make sure people could use it with tor (after all, I got zero problems with people who want to protect their privacy), but with well over 99.9% of the traffic just being overt abuse/DoS, it's really hard to justify doing anything other than blocking it. And then naturally people then thought I was anti-tor, but the reality is I was just being pragmatic.

[TheQuin]

IP address geolocation is not entirely reliable and the use of VPN services–especially with endpoints in the USA–is very common. For that reason we don't automatically block anyone based on IP address geolocation.

It is reliable enough. Many casinos have such IP blocks in place. During my testing, I saw that they are working just fine.

The IP location databases only claim to have 60% accuracy outside of the USA. The fact that other casinos use it and you didn't come across a wrongly assigned address in some very limited testing doesn't necessarily mean it is reliable.

[RHavar]

I think Pmalek's concern is pretty reasonable. There are several casinos that make it easy to break the ToS so that they can profit off of the seizure of accounts with a veil of legitimacy.  A particularly egregious example of this was bitstarz having betting limits that were only confusingly outlined in the ToS, while the actual casino UI would accept anything -- and then if the person happened to ever win a lot of money (even totally unrelated), they would scan their account for past violations, and if they found any would seize the account for "violations".

But as malevolent pointed out, I don't think any of this applies to bustadice. Bustadice just needs to fulfil the legal obligations of where they operate from, which looks a lot closer to "You can't knowingly allow .... to gamble" rather than "If ... breaks your ToS, jack their money"

[devans]

I don't know if it depends on the type of VPN but whenever i try to access bustadice when I have forgotten to turn off my VPN especially if the IP address is off a restricted country. This is what i get and it goes on forever. I always thought it was a way of avoiding people who use VPN from accessing bustadice.



Until I turn off the VPN, that's when I am able to access the website and be able to pretty much do anything. Luckily my area is not restricted.

The IP address must have been automatically banned by bustadice's firewall for being used for something malicious in the past. If you send me a message with the IP address at https://bustadice.com/support I'll unblock it for you.

[Lakai01]

I don't know if it depends on the type of VPN but whenever i try to access bustadice when I have forgotten to turn off my VPN especially if the IP address is off a restricted country. This is what i get and it goes on forever. I always thought it was a way of avoiding people who use VPN from accessing bustadice.
-snip-

I can confirm this. However, this only happens to me if I use VPNs from free VPN lists. With my paid VPN service this does not happen to me and I can use bustadice without any problems. I assume that

• the IP addresses of the free VPNs have already ended up on a blacklist which is used by casinos to automatically block incoming traffic from addresses on this list
• or that an attack against Bustadice was actually carried out via one of these VPN services - although this is much less likely I think

However, one must also be careful when choosing a paid VPN service. Especially well-known services are often misused for attacks and their IP-ranges also end up on blacklists. Therefore I decided to use a not so well known, local provider. The probability is simply much lower that their IP addresses end up on such blacklists.

Without wanting to start a security discussion about how useful it is to use publicly accessible VPN servers, I understand that bustadice blocks such IP addresses. These VPNs are probably not only used for surfing, but also for attacks on websites. If anyone wants to know why you should avoid public vpns ... this is a very good summary - despite a bad headline: 7 Hidden Dangers to Using Free VPNs in 2020

[Pmalek]

The IP location databases only claim to have 60% accuracy outside of the USA. The fact that other casinos use it and you didn't come across a wrongly assigned address in some very limited testing doesn't necessarily mean it is reliable.

I wouldn't know about those numbers and their accuracy so I can't comment whether or not that 60% you posted is correct or not. If you are saying that the IP location is not reliable enough, can you tell me what is the more superior method that Bustadice uses to prevent players from restricted countries from accessing the site? Requesting KYC before processing a withdrawal isn't it. When that happens, the player could have already gambled at the platform. What is done to stop them from getting in in the first place?   

[malevolent]

The IP location databases only claim to have 60% accuracy outside of the USA. The fact that other casinos use it and you didn't come across a wrongly assigned address in some very limited testing doesn't necessarily mean it is reliable.

Yeah, I've been blocked despite my country not making the prohibited jurisdictions lists on more than one occasion, the most recent one was on wolf.bet. Funny thing, a free VPN was enough to evade the block (my country was later added to the list despite the fact that using cryptocurrencies to gamble is the working loophole to go around otherwise restrictive gambling laws, not sure whether their gambling license authority requires this of them...).

I wouldn't know about those numbers and their accuracy so I can't comment whether or not that 60% you posted is correct or not. If you are saying that the IP location is not reliable enough, can you tell me what is the more superior method that Bustadice uses to prevent players from restricted countries from accessing the site? Requesting KYC before processing a withdrawal isn't it. When that happens, the player could have already gambled at the platform. What is done to stop them from getting in in the first place?  

I assume they'll ask for KYC only if the player admits to using the site from a country prohibited by the Terms of Service.

[TheQuin]

If you are saying that the IP location is not reliable enough, can you tell me what is the more superior method that Bustadice uses to prevent players from restricted countries from accessing the site?

I was was just pointing out that using IP geolocation is very limited in its effectiveness. Many people will get through when they shouldn't and many others will be blocked unnecessarily. The only reason casinos do it is because of the terms of their licence.  

Requesting KYC before processing a withdrawal isn't it. When that happens, the player could have already gambled at the platform. What is done to stop them from getting in in the first place?  

You could ask for KYC before allowing them to deposit. The Curaçao license isn't that strict so it isn't necessary. Some other licenses do require it.

It is up to the player to comply with all applicable laws in their jurisdiction.

That's the important point. It isn't illegal for a Bitcoin casino to take bets from anywhere. The condition here is fulfilling the terms on any licence issued. If the Curaçao license only requires them to "not knowingly allow to gamble" that isn't the same as "must block".

Others have pointed out that Bustdice doesn't use it as an excuse not to payout. If I understand you correctly that was your concern here. Whether they simply ask people not to gamble or use IP blocking which is only partially effective doesn't seem particularly important to me. As long as the casino is happy it is complying with its licence and the players are happy they are getting paid I can't see a problem.

[devans]

bustadice's fairness verification tool is open source and fairly easy to audit if you know a bit of JavaScript, but if you prefer an alternative it looks like someone created a third-party verification tool: https://www.btcgosu.com/tools/provably-fair-verifier/#bustadice

[Findingnemo]

Mempool looks empty right now https://mempool.space/ but still the withdrawal for instant withdrawal is higher compared to the required fee but normally bustadice offer the lowest withdrawal fee for the transaction even if it is an instant withdrawal request.

Is there any bug in identifying the required transaction fee?

[Lakai01]

Mempool looks empty right now https://mempool.space/ but still the withdrawal for instant withdrawal is higher compared to the required fee but normally bustadice offer the lowest withdrawal fee for the transaction even if it is an instant withdrawal request.

I don't think this is a bug, because I don't think bustadice calculates the withdrawal fees itself, but gets them via an API.

But to be honest, I would generally not use instant withdraws. Currently the fees for a delayed withdrawal (which usually arrives within a few hours anyways) are as follows:



Whereas an instant withdraw is 5 times more expensive:



So I would only use it in exceptional cases when I really need the BTC urgently (by "urgently" I mean in the next 30 minutes). However, if I can live with the fact that the coins are delayed for a few hours, non-instant withdraws are definitely the best choice, especially if you make withdrawals on a regular basis.

[devans]

bustadice estimates the fee with two different methods and then uses the more conservative (i.e. higher) estimate. The first estimate is based on the most recent blocks that were mined. This estimate is good at recognizing a volatile fee market. Even if the mempool is empty now, if the transaction fees in its rolling window were high it will tend to err on the high side. However, it's slow to react to fees suddenly spiking because it only takes into account blocks that have actually been mined. That's where the second estimate comes in: The second estimate looks at current mempool and gauges what the fee rate needs to be for a transaction to be in included in the next block (i.e. the top 1 MB of the mempool) with a high probability.

Estimating fees this way is not without downside. Like you noticed, it can be relatively slow to react to a backlog that's being cleared. But the upside is that our fees are very low whenever the size of the mempool is relatively constant and that withdrawals rarely become "stuck".

[Findingnemo]

bustadice estimates the fee with two different methods and then uses the more conservative (i.e. higher) estimate. The first estimate is based on the most recent blocks that were mined. This estimate is good at recognizing a volatile fee market. Even if the mempool is empty now, if the transaction fees in its rolling window were high it will tend to err on the high side. However, it's slow to react to fees suddenly spiking because it only takes into account blocks that have actually been mined. That's where the second estimate comes in: The second estimate looks at current mempool and gauges what the fee rate needs to be for a transaction to be in included in the next block (i.e. the top 1 MB of the mempool) with a high probability.

Estimating fees this way is not without downside. Like you noticed, it can be relatively slow to react to a backlog that's being cleared. But the upside is that our fees are very low whenever the size of the mempool is relatively constant and that withdrawals rarely become "stuck".

Thanks for clearing my doubt. Yes I agree that withdrawal from bustadice never stuck from my experiences it will be confirmed in the next 30 minutes and also the fees are relatively low in the [ast even when the mempool get clogged with higher number of transaction that is the main reason why I had this doubt.

Mempool looks empty right now https://mempool.space/ but still the withdrawal for instant withdrawal is higher compared to the required fee but normally bustadice offer the lowest withdrawal fee for the transaction even if it is an instant withdrawal request.

But to be honest, I would generally not use instant withdraws. Currently the fees for a delayed withdrawal (which usually arrives within a few hours anyways) are as follows:

Most of the time I used instant withdrawal feature from bustadice that is why I asked the question which I had in my mind for few days.Yes as you said normal withdrawal fee is cheaper and it may arrives in the next few hours but you can't say that it will happen all the time because in my experience it may take upto 24 hours at rare cases which I don't want to face to be honest.Waiting is painful.

[Lakai01]

Most of the time I used instant withdrawal feature from bustadice that is why I asked the question which I had in my mind for few days.Yes as you said normal withdrawal fee is cheaper and it may arrives in the next few hours but you can't say that it will happen all the time because in my experience it may take upto 24 hours at rare cases which I don't want to face to be honest.Waiting is painful.

I can understand that very well, I feel the same way, that I can hardly wait for the arrival of the coins The 24 hours delay has never happened to me before. I usually have them paid out around 9 am (UTC) and the coins are then in my wallet by noon at the latest.

Maybe the batch payment runs daily around noon? Would be worth an investigation-round

[Findingnemo]

Most of the time I used instant withdrawal feature from bustadice that is why I asked the question which I had in my mind for few days.Yes as you said normal withdrawal fee is cheaper and it may arrives in the next few hours but you can't say that it will happen all the time because in my experience it may take upto 24 hours at rare cases which I don't want to face to be honest.Waiting is painful.

I can understand that very well, I feel the same way, that I can hardly wait for the arrival of the coins The 24 hours delay has never happened to me before. I usually have them paid out around 9 am (UTC) and the coins are then in my wallet by noon at the latest.

Maybe the batch payment runs daily around noon? Would be worth an investigation-round

Haven't noticed the time strap when my bath transactions gets included into the mempool because mostly I used instant as I mentioned but I guess its worth to investigate. Next time I will have a closer look at what time the batch withdrawal takes place.

[logfiles]

Most of the time I used instant withdrawal feature from bustadice that is why I asked the question which I had in my mind for few days.Yes as you said normal withdrawal fee is cheaper and it may arrives in the next few hours but you can't say that it will happen all the time because in my experience it may take upto 24 hours at rare cases which I don't want to face to be honest.Waiting is painful.

@Lakai01  is right, For my case too, I have never had to wait for so many hours for my withdrawal to be approved. It usually takes around 6 hours or less. What I do is make a withdrawal late in the night, By the time I wake up, I find when the BTC is already in my wallet.

Bustadice's flexible fee option is one of the fairest among casinos and exchanges. Most just have a fixed withdrawal fee which is usually very high regardless of the average transaction fee rate at a given time.

[RHavar]

It's been discussed on the chat a few times, but I don't think in the forums. But the logic for queued withdrawals is quite complex, but basically they are only processed when someone does an instant withdrawal. When someone does an instant withdrawal, it appends queued withdrawals that either: a) make the coin selection more efficient or b) are older than 12 hours but doesn't harm coin selection.


It's actually a brilliant system because it confuses most of the bitcoin analysis services because it's able to create so many "changeless" transactions, and allows people to do pretty cheap withdrawals if they're willing to wait.

[devans]

TL;DR: On December 15, all remaining offsite investments will be removed and the commission rate will become dynamic based on the bankroll's size. This is currently beneficial for investors as it will lower the commission rate, but will disincentivize the bankroll becoming larger in the future. Players are not affected.


When I increased the bankroll commission to 50% of the expected profits in September 2019 I had hoped to reduce the size of the bankroll and therefore the total amount of investors' money bustabit and bustadice are responsible for. However, one year later the combined bankrolls still total more than 11,000 BTC. To more actively manage the size of the bankrolls I will be making two changes effective December 15:

First, offsite investing will be retired completely. This will immediately reduce the size of the bankrolls by more than 4,000 BTC and is also in the interest of fairness towards the majority of investors who did not have the opportunity to invest offsite. All remaining offsite investments will be eliminated and affected investors will receive an equivalent amount of dilution fee credits.

Second, bustabit and bustadice will both move to a dynamic commission model where the commission changes in real-time based on the size of the bankroll:

commission rate = bankroll / 10,000 BTC

On bustabit this means that the commission rate will be roughly the same as now or slightly lower. On bustadice these changes slash the commission by more than half, down to ~20%.

[JollyGood]

With the greatest respect devans, which safety mechanisms are in place to ensure those 11,000+ Bitcoin investors will have access to both their profits and their investment in the unfortunate event something were to happen to you (incapacitated or death)?

I mean 11,000 BTC x $16,000 per Bitcoin = $ a lot of USD

TL;DR: On December 15, all remaining offsite investments will be removed and the commission rate will become dynamic based on the bankroll's size. This is currently beneficial for investors as it will lower the commission rate, but will disincentivize the bankroll becoming larger in the future. Players are not affected.


When I increased the bankroll commission to 50% of the expected profits in September 2019 I had hoped to reduce the size of the bankroll and therefore the total amount of investors' money bustabit and bustadice are responsible for. However, one year later the combined bankrolls still total more than 11,000 BTC. To more actively manage the size of the bankrolls I will be making two changes effective December 15:

First, offsite investing will be retired completely. This will immediately reduce the size of the bankrolls by more than 4,000 BTC and is also in the interest of fairness towards the majority of investors who did not have the opportunity to invest offsite. All remaining offsite investments will be eliminated and affected investors will receive an equivalent amount of dilution fee credits.

Second, bustabit and bustadice will both move to a dynamic commission model where the commission changes in real-time based on the size of the bankroll:

commission rate = bankroll / 10,000 BTC

On bustabit this means that the commission rate will be roughly the same as now or slightly lower. On bustadice these changes slash the commission by more than half, down to ~20%.

[devans]

With the greatest respect devans, which safety mechanisms are in place to ensure those 11,000+ Bitcoin investors will have access to both their profits and their investment in the unfortunate event something were to happen to you (incapacitated or death)?

I mean 11,000 BTC x $16,000 per Bitcoin = $ a lot of USD

Without going into detail, I've taken precautions to ensure that everyone including bankroll investors would be able to safely withdraw in case something were to happen to me. It may take some time, but everybody would eventually receive their money.

Hopefully that will never be necessary, though 🤞