Will bitcoins become illegal?

[QuestionAuthority]

^What _country are you talking about?

[acoindr]

I'm not sure what they can make illegal.
The word 'bitcoin' is just a made up word, so that won't work.
The rest is just mathematics - I don't know if there is a precedent on illegal mathematics.

Actually there is. The US has export laws on encryption past a certain strength.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export_of_cryptography_in_the_United_States

However, your first thoughts on the subject are more relevant. As has been mentioned before Bitcoin doesn't encrypt any transfer of information. Everything is public and broadcast in the clear. So "bitcoin" as you point out being an arbitrary word is really just information. Indeed, it's possible to use a brain wallet to store your private key and carry an unlimited amount of bitcoins in your head.

So making "bitcoin" illegal is nearly synonymous with making information, or thoughts illegal.

Good luck with that.

[jackjack]

I'm not sure what they can make illegal.
The word 'bitcoin' is just a made up word, so that won't work.
The rest is just mathematics - I don't know if there is a precedent on illegal mathematics.

Actually there is. The US has export laws on encryption past a certain strength.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export_of_cryptography_in_the_United_States

However, your first thoughts on the subject are more relevant. As has been mentioned before Bitcoin doesn't encrypt any transfer of information. Everything is public and broadcast in the clear. So "bitcoin" as you point out being an arbitrary word is really just information. Indeed, it's possible to use a brain wallet to store your private key and carry an unlimited amount of bitcoins in your head.

So making "bitcoin" illegal is nearly synonymous with making information, or thoughts illegal.

Good luck with that.

Don't under-estimate USA

[countryfree]

I'd bet bitcoin is already illegal in North Korea, because people cannot freely access the Internet there. In the free world, some government could say that bitcoin is used for terrorism and money laundering, but as long as there are regular businesses using it, this will guard any government from trying to make bitcoin illegal.

[jackjack]

I'd bet bitcoin is already illegal in North Korea, because people cannot freely access the Internet there. In the free world, some government could say that bitcoin is used for terrorism and money laundering (*), but as long as there are regular businesses using it, this will guard any government from trying to make bitcoin illegal.

(*) You forgot kiddy porn

[strinkle]

A country could require its citizens to report their assets, and mandate that one's bitcoins be included at current market value even though still in bitcoin form and not yet converted to fiat or spent on goods or services. And make it a criminal offence to falsify one's asset report.

Later, if one's visible assets are not commensurate with one's reports, one might have a problem.

[Stampbit]

They could require a stamp to purchase bitcoins as part of AML laws and then not issue said stamp.

[tvbcof]

If governments could make it illegal, they would have many years ago. It's only the above-ground businesses that they can target at the moment, and they are doing so as we type. The only way I can imagine governments outlawing Bitcoin would be to fundamentally seize control of the internet itself. This seizure has been in the works for over a decade now, so I guess it's not too far beyond the realm of possibility...

I'd point out that a cat does not normally make her move as the gazelle approaches the watering hole.  She waits until her prey has become comfortable enough to drop it's head for a drink.  That is, of course, when the prey is most vulnerable and the attack is most likely to result in a kill.

[RavinTavin]

I mean the fact of the matter is there is very slim difference between a Neopoint to a Bitcoin, but I feel like a physical Bitcoin probably could get you in trouble in the future.

[jackjack]

A girl knowing Tor? That's too much for me, you're definitely a guy a his basement

You download and open... Come say hi tonight on MFC

Just kidding, I trust you
I don't have any money for this kind of things anyway

[Chaoskampf]

If governments could make it illegal, they would have many years ago. It's only the above-ground businesses that they can target at the moment, and they are doing so as we type. The only way I can imagine governments outlawing Bitcoin would be to fundamentally seize control of the internet itself. This seizure has been in the works for over a decade now, so I guess it's not too far beyond the realm of possibility...

I'd point out that a cat does not normally make her move as the gazelle approaches the watering hole.  She waits until her prey has become comfortable enough to drop it's head for a drink.  That is, of course, when the prey is most vulnerable and the attack is most likely to result in a kill.

My thinking as well....

[ar9]

Bitcoins specifically likely won't, but I can see all alternative "digital currencies" becoming illegal in the next 2 years.

I believe this was to be expected though. 

[Chaoskampf]

I think a better question is, what are we going to do to combat/counteract government regulation? We're clearly wading into those waters with each passing day.

[tvbcof]

I think a better question is, what are we going to do to combat/counteract government regulation? We're clearly wading into those waters with each passing day.

That is, to me, what the struggle over the block size and 'off-chain transaction solutions' is all about.

I and other 'minimalists' have some theories about how the attacks might go down and how to attempt to thwart them.  Other people have other theories.  It's hard to know who is right or how much time we have to figure it out.

I'm quite confident that in a general sense, 'distributed crypto-currencies' are here to stay and as they evolve they will adapt to whatever environment they find themselves in.  I think that there is every likelihood of a pretty bumpy ride though.

[Tomatocage]

Bitcoin itself won't become illegal. But governments will nickel and dime to death any business openly accepting Bitcoin as payment.

[Chaoskampf]

I think a better question is, what are we going to do to combat/counteract government regulation? We're clearly wading into those waters with each passing day.

That is, to me, what the struggle over the block size and 'off-chain transaction solutions' is all about.

I and other 'minimalists' have some theories about how the attacks might go down and how to attempt to thwart them.  Other people have other theories.  It's hard to know who is right or how much time we have to figure it out.

I'm quite confident that in a general sense, 'distributed crypto-currencies' are here to stay and as they evolve they will adapt to whatever environment they find themselves in.  I think that there is every likelihood of a pretty bumpy ride though.

More people need to understand the issue of block size and off-chain transactions.

I'm still surprised by how many people don't understand why governments would want to prohibit cryptocurrencies in the first place. Within this thread there was someone who basically said there's no reason why they would want to, so they won't. This needs to change as fast as possible, or else people are going to blindly subscribe to whatever government sponsored bastardization that is proposed as a "legitimized" version of Bitcoin. As far as I can tell, we're quickly spiraling towards a full-on, internationally organized, government assault on the network itself. I think this will take the form of Internet regulation. Just as developers are hard at work designing p2p exchange protocols, they should also be working on truly p2p internets. I know of a few projects that are already in the works (Meshnet, among others). I haven't researched the nitty gritty of these Internet protocols, but knowing that there are skilled developers at work on this issue gives me hope. Maybe we can avoid Orwell's foreboding boot from crushing humanity's face for the rest of history...or maybe not

[CasinoBit]

Will it be become illegal? Maybe.
Will they be able to enforce? No.

/thread

[Inedible]

I'm not sure what they can make illegal.
The word 'bitcoin' is just a made up word, so that won't work.
The rest is just mathematics - I don't know if there is a precedent on illegal mathematics.

Haha! That was almost as funny as the last guy 

[tvbcof]

... As far as I can tell, we're quickly spiraling towards a full-on, internationally organized, government assault on the network itself. I think this will take the form of Internet regulation.

I'm afraid I have to concur.  I sense that 'the powers that be' are holding back and getting their ducks in a row at this point, but that all large countries, at least, have more to fear from their own populations than they do from one another.  I imagine that what happened to Mubarak did not go past most of the world's leaders and they have no plans to allow such a thing to happen to themselves.

The media corporations are the main ones chomping at the bit and have jumped the gun slightly to give us a taste of what's in store.  It's not pretty, and I'll bet that 'we ain't seen nothin yet.'

Just as developers are hard at work designing p2p exchange protocols, they should also be working on truly p2p internets. I know of a few projects that are already in the works (Meshnet, among others). I haven't researched the nitty gritty of these Internet protocols, but knowing that there are skilled developers at work on this issue gives me hope. Maybe we can avoid Orwell's foreboding boot from crushing humanity's face for the rest of history...or maybe not

I'm afraid that I don't have as much hope for Meshnet and the like as I wish I did.  It's a huge technical challenge in the best of circumstances, and to get it to work with anything resembling reliability and performance in the face of almost any resistance (like hunting down nodes (which are, after all, beacons)) will be a monumental challenge.

I think it likely that in order to enjoy free communications we'll have to go through a period of slipping through various narrow cracks, but eventually we'll win and things will open back up again.  It well could be the case that Meshnet and such things will be exceedingly valuable in that phase.

[tvbcof]

... As far as I can tell, we're quickly spiraling towards a full-on, internationally organized, government assault on the network itself. I think this will take the form of Internet regulation.

I'm afraid I have to concur.  I sense that 'the powers that be' are holding back and getting their ducks in a row at this point, but that all large countries, at least, have more to fear from their own populations than they do from one another.  I imagine that what happened to Mubarak did not go past most of the world's leaders and they have no plans to allow such a thing to happen to themselves.

The media corporations are the main ones chomping at the bit and have jumped the gun slightly to give us a taste of what's in store.  It's not pretty, and I'll bet that 'we ain't seen nothin yet.'

Just as developers are hard at work designing p2p exchange protocols, they should also be working on truly p2p internets. I know of a few projects that are already in the works (Meshnet, among others). I haven't researched the nitty gritty of these Internet protocols, but knowing that there are skilled developers at work on this issue gives me hope. Maybe we can avoid Orwell's foreboding boot from crushing humanity's face for the rest of history...or maybe not

I'm afraid that I don't have as much hope for Meshnet and the like as I wish I did.  It's a huge technical challenge in the best of circumstances, and to get it to work with anything resembling reliability and performance in the face of almost any resistance (like hunting down nodes (which are, after all, beacons)) will be a monumental challenge.

I think it likely that in order to enjoy free communications we'll have to go through a period of slipping through various narrow cracks, but eventually we'll win and things will open back up again.  It well could be the case that Meshnet and such things will be exceedingly valuable in that phase.

That's quite a dystopian future you envision!

Ya.  I've always been prone to try to anticipate the worst and try to figure out a strategy for it.  Most of the time the worst never materializes, and that's fantastic!  Sometimes my choices to prepare for the worst end up costing me, but on balance they have not.

In this case, my fears for the future are in some sense a memory/study/observation of the past.  I remember back to the struggles around availability of 'military grade' cryptography from back when the Internet fist became available to me in the mid 90's.  It was not at all clear that 'we' were going to win and there was much talk around escrowed backdoors and such.  I think the main reason we won is that there was a recognition that seeing who communicated with who was actually more critical than knowing what they said.  And we also won because of people like Hal Finney...and possibly because of Hal Finney.

I also think that fucking with anyone's monetary system is on par with an act of war (whether the transgressors fully recognize their transgressions or not...)  If distributed crypto-currencies end up having a noticeable impact on mainstream monetary systems, and if they cannot be brought under control, I do expect a pretty significant response.