Butterfly Labs Announces Bulk Chip Sales

[k9quaint]

Only credit card companies might save their ass (consumer)...

BFL doesn't take credit cards.

PayPal does...

Sure, but after 45 days Paypal considers the sale final. So if you have an old pre-order (100 days old for instance ), Paypal won't help you. Since the CC companies are paying Paypal and Paypal didn't rip you off, the CC companies won't help you. That is why people were recommending renewing a pre-order every 45 days with BFL through PayPal.

That's what I thought, but it's not the case; apparently depends on the card issuer. I've been looking into this and speaking to banks...

I was talking about Paypal disputes, which are different than CC charge-backs.
I guess if you can get the CC bank to consider a charge-back then they will go to bat for you. Insuring transactions through the CC might be a good avenue to explore as well.

[1715476082]

1715476082

[1715476082]

1715476082

[1715476082]

1715476082

[Bitcoinorama]

Only credit card companies might save their ass (consumer)...

BFL doesn't take credit cards.

PayPal does...

Sure, but after 45 days Paypal considers the sale final. So if you have an old pre-order (100 days old for instance ), Paypal won't help you. Since the CC companies are paying Paypal and Paypal didn't rip you off, the CC companies won't help you. That is why people were recommending renewing a pre-order every 45 days with BFL through PayPal.

That's what I thought, but it's not the case; apparently depends on the card issuer. I've been looking into this and speaking to banks...

I was talking about Paypal disputes, which are different than CC charge-backs.
I guess if you can get the CC bank to consider a charge-back then they will go to bat for you. Insuring transactions through the CC might be a good avenue to explore as well.

Yes, I'm not a BFL customer, just trying to protect my ass elsewhere.

I also spoke to Paypal, they will do nothing for you after 45 days, aside stop the seller from using Paypal if enough complaints are received...

I read elsewhere that visa and mcards 180 day warranty is invalid with third party payment via Paypal, so rang a my card issuer and Paypal.

Paypal wouldn't confirm anything but their 45 day window, surprisingly my card company was willing.

I have them on record saying that as I recorded the conversation.

Respective banks handle disputes in their own way so don't take my situation for granted. This is only for credit cards, not debit, but again your bank maybe different. I'm not in the US.

Any BFL customer should have done this beforehand. It was their responsibility, but greed blinds...and I've seen f**k all due diligence applied to most 'investments' here!

[k9quaint]

Only credit card companies might save their ass (consumer)...

BFL doesn't take credit cards.

PayPal does...

Sure, but after 45 days Paypal considers the sale final. So if you have an old pre-order (100 days old for instance ), Paypal won't help you. Since the CC companies are paying Paypal and Paypal didn't rip you off, the CC companies won't help you. That is why people were recommending renewing a pre-order every 45 days with BFL through PayPal.

That's what I thought, but it's not the case; apparently depends on the card issuer. I've been looking into this and speaking to banks...

I was talking about Paypal disputes, which are different than CC charge-backs.
I guess if you can get the CC bank to consider a charge-back then they will go to bat for you. Insuring transactions through the CC might be a good avenue to explore as well.

Yes, I'm not a BFL customer, just trying to protect my ass elsewhere.

I also spoke to Paypal, they will do nothing for you after 45 days, aside stop the seller from using Paypal if enough complaints are received...

I read elsewhere that visa and mcards 180 day warranty is invalid with third party payment via Paypal, so rang a my card issuer and Paypal.

Paypal wouldn't confirm anything but their 45 day window, surprisingly my card company was willing.

I have them on record saying that as I recorded the conversation.

Respective banks handle disputes in their own way so don't take my situation for granted. This is only for credit cards, not debit, but again your bank maybe different. I'm not in the US.

Any BFL customer should have done this beforehand. It was their responsibility, but greed blinds...and I've seen f**k all due diligence applied to most 'investments' here!

That is good knowledge. 

[pikeadz]

Only credit card companies might save their ass (consumer)...

BFL doesn't take credit cards.

PayPal does...

Sure, but after 45 days Paypal considers the sale final. So if you have an old pre-order (100 days old for instance ), Paypal won't help you. Since the CC companies are paying Paypal and Paypal didn't rip you off, the CC companies won't help you. That is why people were recommending renewing a pre-order every 45 days with BFL through PayPal.

That's what I thought, but it's not the case; apparently depends on the card issuer. I've been looking into this and speaking to banks...

BFL and Paypal get charged a hefty fee whenever you do a chargeback through your credit card and sideswipe their normal processes.  Bonus for those of you who feel helpless and maybe even a little vengeful.  Vengeance aside, it is still leverage.  Most reputable merchants will be more flexible in the face of a chargeback where they are assessed additional fees.

But yes, I've successfully charged back items as late as 6 months after a purchase that went bad.  The scummier the merchant, the more willing they are to go to bat for you.

[firefop]

I guess now Yifu can now check to see if BFL's chips really are 65nm if he gets in on a group buy of 100.

$100 is cheaper than ponying up one of those 6GH/s development boxes.

Maybe Avalon should simply buy a large lot of chips and design Avalon MK2 to run on bfl chips. Sure would solve a lot a problems for them and bfl.

[PuertoLibre]

Only credit card companies might save their ass (consumer)...

BFL doesn't take credit cards.

PayPal does...

Sure, but after 45 days Paypal considers the sale final. So if you have an old pre-order (100 days old for instance ), Paypal won't help you. Since the CC companies are paying Paypal and Paypal didn't rip you off, the CC companies won't help you. That is why people were recommending renewing a pre-order every 45 days with BFL through PayPal.

That's what I thought, but it's not the case; apparently depends on the card issuer. I've been looking into this and speaking to banks...

BFL and Paypal get charged a hefty fee whenever you do a chargeback through your credit card and sideswipe their normal processes.  Bonus for those of you who feel helpless and maybe even a little vengeful.  Vengeance aside, it is still leverage.  Most reputable merchants will be more flexible in the face of a chargeback where they are assessed additional fees.

But yes, I've successfully charged back items as late as 6 months after a purchase that went bad.  The scummier the merchant, the more willing they are to go to bat for you.

I can atest to this being true. (Ref: The chargeback fees)

The biggest issue is not that you get charged a fee for a chargeback. It is that you gain a reputation for poor transactions.

Most Merchant accounts (that accept Credit Cards) will only allow you to fail 2% of the time. Then they drop you and charge you a termination fee.

There are probably several reasons why BFL doesn't have a standard Credit Card account*. The Main Rep (Josh) has even lashed out at Paypal on BFL forums. (which I am sure is against their terms of service)

Link: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/pre-sales-questions/2843-what-happened-pay-google.html#post34971



If they lose PayPal, they lose a good portion of their Credit Card charging ability. I am unsure whether BitPay accepts CC. I believe they do not and only deal with Virtual Currency.

--------------------

Anyway, BFL customers don't complain enough, hence why they get bent over a desk quite alot. (Rather than them bending someone over the desk)

*PayPal Merchant Account is not considered a "real" standard merchant account in my opinion.

[PuertoLibre]

https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/terms-outside#user_responsibilities

Part 4

Prohibited Transactions. You agree that you will not use PayPal to accept payment for illegal products or services, including but not limited to materials that infringe the intellectual property rights of third parties. You will not use the Service, the PayPal website or any of the services offered therein for any unlawful or fraudulent activity. If PayPal (or Wells Fargo, in connection with processing credit card transactions) has reason to believe that you may be engaging in or have engaged in fraudulent, unlawful, or improper activity, including without limitation any violation of any terms and conditions of this Agreement, your access to the Service may be suspended or terminated. Further, if such behavior involved a MasterCard or VISA credit card transaction, it may result in you/your business being prevented from registering for payment acceptance through any payment provider or directly with any bank acquirer operating under license to either the MasterCard or VISA card associations. You will cooperate fully with PayPal Wells Fargo, MasterCard or VISA to investigate any suspected unlawful, fraudulent or improper activity, including but not limited to granting authorized PayPal representatives "guest" or "member" access to any password-protected portions of your website.

You also agree not to use your PayPal account to sell goods with delivery dates delayed more than 20 days from the date of payment, or to sell securities, business opportunities, franchises or multi-level marketing or goods with delivery delayed more than 20 days from the date of payment. You agree not to impersonate a PayPal User or a PayPal representative, or to request that a PayPal customer provide you with their password or other information to access their account.

=================

Highlights for pointing out the obvious...

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Josh is the bestest COO in the whole wide world. He'll handle every aspect of your company with that title, from handling care of customer service, overseeing the production line, taking care of the financial matter, and even single-handedly man the official Twitter account. He's even on record in directing the webmaster as to what corrections need to be taken care of.

He won't have a single leg to stand on if he ever claims that he was limited to information at BFL when Sonny ups and disappear after his probation is over.

[k9quaint]

I guess now Yifu can now check to see if BFL's chips really are 65nm if he gets in on a group buy of 100.

$100 is cheaper than ponying up one of those 6GH/s development boxes.

Maybe Avalon should simply buy a large lot of chips and design Avalon MK2 to run on bfl chips. Sure would solve a lot a problems for them and bfl.

Why would they? BFL chips bang for the buck is about the same as Avalon.

Retail prices:
BFL   2.5GH/s for $85  29MH/s per $1
Avalon  280MH/s for $10 28MH/s per $1

Avalon of course has access to wholesale prices for their own chips, so their chips are far more efficient for them to use than paying BFL.

[tvbcof]

Only credit card companies might save their ass (consumer)...

BFL doesn't take credit cards.

PayPal does...

Sure, but after 45 days Paypal considers the sale final. So if you have an old pre-order (100 days old for instance ), Paypal won't help you. Since the CC companies are paying Paypal and Paypal didn't rip you off, the CC companies won't help you. That is why people were recommending renewing a pre-order every 45 days with BFL through PayPal.

That's what I thought, but it's not the case; apparently depends on the card issuer. I've been looking into this and speaking to banks...

BFL and Paypal get charged a hefty fee whenever you do a chargeback through your credit card and sideswipe their normal processes.  Bonus for those of you who feel helpless and maybe even a little vengeful.  Vengeance aside, it is still leverage.  Most reputable merchants will be more flexible in the face of a chargeback where they are assessed additional fees.

But yes, I've successfully charged back items as late as 6 months after a purchase that went bad.  The scummier the merchant, the more willing they are to go to bat for you.

My experience is that PayPal pays attention mainly (or only) to communications that went through their system.

Most of the people who've tried to screw me have not provided responses to my queries through PayPal's messaging system, and coincidentally or not, it took PayPal investigators a matter of minutes to decide I was in the right.

I have always tried to format my correspondence such that a PayPal investigator could easily follow things.  Short simple questions of the merchant which should be easy to answer.  And which should be answered.

[Tigggger]

Well it's been over 48 hours, several people have tried starting group buys but as far as I can see not a SINGLE person has commited to SINGLE chip.

A few who did show interest would only do so if payment was on delivery and nothing up front.

Sanity prevails on bitcointalk

[PuertoLibre]

Well it's been over 48 hours, several people have tried starting group buys but as far as I can see not a SINGLE person has commited to SINGLE chip.

A few who did show interest would only do so if payment was on delivery and nothing up front.

Sanity prevails on bitcointalk

Puts on MASTER BFL Shill costume.

WTH, BFL customers?!

BUY Damnit, BUY NOW. BUY MORE!

.......alright I didn't want to do this...but....

Moderators, cut the oxygen to BitCoinTalk by 20%. If they won't buy because of "sanity"...they will buy through induced hypoxia. We just need to level out this "thing" called sanity once and for all...

(MASTER BFL Shill)

[erk]

BFL Chips?  I think market is already flooded with Avalon chip orders.  With (almost) open source ref. design.

Why would someone want to buy BFL chips at this point? Do they offer better GH/s/Watt?  

People who wanted to go DYI route have already done so.

Help me understand, what is so compelling about BFL chips that would make me buy few?

BFL chips crap all over Avalon chip, read about them before you post. The market is NOT flooded with Avalon chips, the have not shipped.

[PuertoLibre]

Help me understand, what is so compelling about BFL chips that would make me buy few?

Because.....


(Shit! I have no good answer...fook it...time to deflect!)



There did your mind just blank out right now? Good. What were we talking about again?  

<MASTER BFL Shill>

[smoothie]

I guess now Yifu can now check to see if BFL's chips really are 65nm if he gets in on a group buy of 100.

$100 is cheaper than ponying up one of those 6GH/s development boxes.

Maybe Avalon should simply buy a large lot of chips and design Avalon MK2 to run on bfl chips. Sure would solve a lot a problems for them and bfl.

Why would they? BFL chips bang for the buck is about the same as Avalon.

Retail prices:
BFL   2.5GH/s for $85  29MH/s per $1
Avalon  280MH/s for $10 28MH/s per $1

Avalon of course has access to wholesale prices for their own chips, so their chips are far more efficient for them to use than paying BFL.

[smoothie]

@Erk,

BFL's chips if they ever do arrive will be at least a month or two after AVALON chip orders get filled.

Months in the bitcoin world in terms of difficulty is like comparing Smart cars to Limousines.

[Xian01]

BFL Chips?  I think market is already flooded with Avalon chip orders.  With (almost) open source ref. design.
Why would someone want to buy BFL chips at this point? Do they offer better GH/s/Watt?  
People who wanted to go DYI route have already done so.
Help me understand, what is so compelling about BFL chips that would make me buy few?

*Mumbles something about the four extra quarters worth of clues that you are buying per GHs/Watt*

[KGambler]

Erk, you should probably start updating your resume.  Things not looking good for BFL.

[k9quaint]

Notice how Erk claims the BFL chips win but can't post any numbers to back it up? 

[YipYip]

BFL Chips?  I think market is already flooded with Avalon chip orders.  With (almost) open source ref. design.

Why would someone want to buy BFL chips at this point? Do they offer better GH/s/Watt?  

People who wanted to go DYI route have already done so.

Help me understand, what is so compelling about BFL chips that would make me buy few?

BFL chips crap all over Avalon chip, read about them before you post. The market is NOT flooded with Avalon chips, the have not shipped.

STop impersonating an australian...... sock puppet!