[TAT.VIRTUALMINE]

[btceic]

It would be nice if this were on BTCT.

+1

An application has been submitted.

If the application goes through will you sell shares at IPO price at BTCT?

Yes, assuming it gets approved somewhat quickly.

If it does get approved what are your recomendations for transfer?

[ThickAsThieves]

If it does get approved what are your recommendations for transfer?

Transfer what? Shares from BF? I see no need to do that really. The BTCTC version will act separately on its own.

[FloatesMcgoates]

Nice to know that hopefully this will be on BTCT soon, I will definitely consider buying a few hundred shares.

However this is my main concern that might hold me back:

Buying a share is the equivalent of buying 1 MH/s in hashing ability. This amount of hashing power will remain static while difficulty will increase at around 10-20% every other week, so won't the value of the stock share go down significantly over time?

[ADgordo]

Nice to know that hopefully this will be on BTCT soon, I will definitely consider buying a few hundred shares.

However this is my main concern that might hold me back:

Buying a share is the equivalent of buying 1 MH/s in hashing ability. This amount of hashing power will remain static while difficulty will increase at around 10-20% every other week, so won't the value of the stock share go down significantly over time?

That, and, at current difficulty it seems that it will take ~250 days to break-even.

[ThickAsThieves]

Nice to know that hopefully this will be on BTCT soon, I will definitely consider buying a few hundred shares.

However this is my main concern that might hold me back:

Buying a share is the equivalent of buying 1 MH/s in hashing ability. This amount of hashing power will remain static while difficulty will increase at around 10-20% every other week, so won't the value of the stock share go down significantly over time?

Mining difficulty is likely to generally go up over time, but share price for most mining assets is usually much more delayed in being affected. I can't control the market, but I would not be surprised at all if share value actually goes up in the short term. I am offering something at nearly half the rate of other issuers, so it's possible the prices will meet somewhere in the middle.

It's also possible that something could happen to stagnate difficulty, and even though it's unlikely, there is always a chance that difficulty could rise very slowly for a period, allowing healthy dividends to be prolonged.

There may also be strategies for reinvesting dividends into more bonds in the short term, that might allow you to float over the diff changes, combined with a healthy share price. There is a lot to consider, and many dynamics to factor in this market. Overall, ALL mining assets have their risks, as well as their relationship to difficulty changes.

[FloatesMcgoates]

Nice to know that hopefully this will be on BTCT soon, I will definitely consider buying a few hundred shares.

However this is my main concern that might hold me back:

Buying a share is the equivalent of buying 1 MH/s in hashing ability. This amount of hashing power will remain static while difficulty will increase at around 10-20% every other week, so won't the value of the stock share go down significantly over time?

Mining difficulty is likely to generally go up over time, but share price for most mining assets is usually much more delayed in being affected. I can't control the market, but I would not be surprised at all if share value actually goes up in the short term. I am offering something at nearly half the rate of other issuers, so it's possible the prices will meet somewhere in the middle.

It's also possible that something could happen to stagnate difficulty, and even though it's unlikely, there is always a chance that difficulty could rise very slowly for a period, allowing healthy dividends to be prolonged.

There may also be strategies for reinvesting dividends into more bonds in the short term, that might allow you to float over the diff changes, combined with a healthy share price. There is a lot to consider, and many dynamics to factor in this market. Overall, ALL mining assets have their risks, as well as their relationship to difficulty changes.

I bolded a statement that I find to be fairly accurate and is a major motivator in buying shares, however in the original post you also have claimed the right to issue new shares at "fair market price" :

Additional shares may be issued at fair market price at any time, as long as TAT Investments has sufficient backing (see below).

This right, in addition to the fact that there is no ceiling to the number of shares that may be in circulation at any one time, leads to the following risk:

- The "fair market value" of 1 MH/s decreases significantly over time
- You, as per your right, begin to issue more shares (You can do this infinitely as per current rules) at the new fair market value, which will be below IPO price.
- The overall value of the stock declines much faster than it would have otherwise

Rinse and repeat.

So given what I have stated above, I would like to ask
1.) How often do you plan on issuing new shares?
2.) Will warning be given before issuing new shares?

[elefter]

So.. i did some number crunching...
a Block Erupter Blade ASICMINER   10   costs ฿ 50 and delivers 10,000 Mh/s
now lets say you use those 50 btc and buy bonds you get 50/0.007 = 7142 shares or 7,142 Mh/s (the 7,4142 was a typo )

hmm interesting...

[ThickAsThieves]

So.. i did some number crunching...
a Block Erupter Blade ASICMINER   10   costs ฿ 50 and delivers 10,000 Mh/s
now lets say you use those 50 btc and buy bonds you get 50/0.007 = 7142 shares or 7,4142 Mh/s

hmm interesting...

Check your math, you've got an extra 4 in there

This asset was intentionally priced to be more expensive than a Block Erupter.

[ThickAsThieves]

So given what I have stated above, I would like to ask
1.) How often do you plan on issuing new shares?
2.) Will warning be given before issuing new shares?

It is not my goal to devalue the bonds prematurely, but I did need a way to allow myself to issue more shares in the future because my analysis leads me to believe demand will be high. It is in everyone's best interest (including my own) for the value to be set by the market.

I do not have a set plan for frequency of sales, but I will consider coming up with a way to make the issuance of new bonds more structured and/or formulaic.

At the moment, I plan to play it by ear. I do not want to sell an infinite amount of shares, even if I could. There are real liabilities at stake here.

[nrd525]

Investing in this bond is essentially a bet against ASICMiner growth.

Otherwise if you think ASICminer is going to have strong growth - buy shares.
If you think another company is going to grow faster or release a hot ASIC - then buy that.
The reason to buy this bond is that you think ASICMiner won't grow as fast as expected AND other ASIC projects won't succeed as fast as expected.  Then having a guaranteed hash rate is good.

By betting against ASICMiner growth the bond owners are also betting against the bond issuer.

[iCEBREAKER]

IPO will go live in about an hour, early bidding is open: https://bitfunder.com/asset/TAT.VIRTUALMINE

Below is a chart showing a comparison of the cost per 1MH/s for each mining asset currently on the market. I apologize if some details are a pinch out of date, it's hard to keep up with changing prices, etc! Feel free to check my math and let me know if I missed anything.

hi tat, your handy chart should include picostock's 100th bitfury project.  200mh/share for btc0.289 at present is 0.001445 per mh.

https://picostocks.com/stocks/view/19

[Eric Muyser]

IPO will go live in about an hour, early bidding is open: https://bitfunder.com/asset/TAT.VIRTUALMINE

Below is a chart showing a comparison of the cost per 1MH/s for each mining asset currently on the market. I apologize if some details are a pinch out of date, it's hard to keep up with changing prices, etc! Feel free to check my math and let me know if I missed anything.

hi tat, your handy chart should include picostock's 100th bitfury project.  200mh/share for btc0.289 at present is 0.001445 per mh.

https://picostocks.com/stocks/view/19

Yeah it should. 100TH is about 5x cheaper than TAT.VM, but not mining for a few more months at least, and the issuer screwed some people by distributing more shares at a lower price after IPO. ASIC.COOP's numbers are about the same.

[Eric Muyser]

Nice to know that hopefully this will be on BTCT soon, I will definitely consider buying a few hundred shares.

However this is my main concern that might hold me back:

Buying a share is the equivalent of buying 1 MH/s in hashing ability. This amount of hashing power will remain static while difficulty will increase at around 10-20% every other week, so won't the value of the stock share go down significantly over time?

Not quite. People getting into TAT.VM are either looking for somewhere to put their coins as an intermediate between ups and downs in other stocks, or they're looking for passive consistent dividends yielding 5-30% APY (interest a year), like a normal solid stock. It's the *safe* choice. Currently people use YABMC for this, but YABMC doesn't have many shares on Bitfunder (500), and on BTCT it doesn't have much activity, isn't clear to people on the MH per share, and does weekly dividends (the difficulty for the last 6 days will be whatever is on the 7th day, which isn't fair). YABMC has been fairly consistent in price. Actually, it's been increasing, as more people want to use it as an intermediate. TAT.VM is very clear, and daily, and on Bitfunder. It's a great intermediary if you're interested in it. It's at like 30% APY, which is nothing to sneeze at, so even as it decreases to 5% it's still a good holding, thus the price should not drop below the IPO very much.

[Bonam]

The IPO price seems to be chosen to be just a bit more expensive than the cost/hash of an Asicminer USB stick (142 MH/BTC for TAT.VM vs ~150-170 MH/BTC for Asicminer USB). Given that people are buying those, and those are physical hardware that has a finite lifespan, draws electricity, has to be shipped so it can't start hashing right away, needs to be plugged into a USB port that also costs a certain amount of money, etc, it would seem that TAT.VM is priced pretty well. Remember that the inherent problem of your investment's hash power staying still while network hashrate grows applies just as much to the purchase of any physical mining hardware. If you discount the risk of having to trust a third party rather than owning a physical piece of hardware, I'd say this asset would probably be worth somewhere around 0.01-0.015 BTC / share until ASICs cheaper than Asicminer ones are freely available. I think it will rise considerably above the IPO price in the short term, before falling sometime around when people can freely buy (and have shipped right away) ASIC hardware such as from BFL or Avalon, or if Asicminer sells future blades/USBs at a lower price.

[Lorren]

Something to invest in on Bitfunder other than AMC, although riding their ups and downs helped me grow my initial .1 investment into over .122 in a couple week's time.  This investment seems more trustworthy to me, as my TAT.ASICMINER on BTCT has been decent.

[odolvlobo]

Backing of Bonds
The total amount of bonds issued will always be backed by a quantity of ASICMINER shares that represent an amount of hashing power that is equivalent to TAT.VIRTUALMINE’s total simulated hashing power, as determined by http://www.asicminercharts.com/live/ or the most recent hashrate as verified by ASICMINER staff.

Can you explain what you mean by "backed by ... ASICMINER shares"? Does this mean that TAT.VM holds shares of ASICMINER, and these shares belong to bond holders? Or, does it just mean that TAT.VM promises to hold a certain number of shares of ASICMINER as assurance that TAT.VM dividends will be paid?

Also, does "ASICMINER shares that represent an amount of hashing power" mean average hashing power per ASICMINER share? For example, the current ASICMINER hashing power is about 20 Th/s, or about 50 Mh/s/share, so each TAT.VM share would be backed by 1/50th of an ASICMINER share, right?

Finally, in addition to mining, a portion of ASICMINER dividends is based on the profits from sales of hardware. What happens to this portion of the dividends?

[odolvlobo]

The IPO price seems to be chosen to be just a bit more expensive than the cost/hash of an Asicminer USB stick (142 MH/BTC for TAT.VM vs ~150-170 MH/BTC for Asicminer USB). Given that people are buying those, and those are physical hardware that has a finite lifespan, draws electricity, has to be shipped so it can't start hashing right away, needs to be plugged into a USB port that also costs a certain amount of money, etc, it would seem that TAT.VM is priced pretty well. Remember that the inherent problem of your investment's hash power staying still while network hashrate grows applies just as much to the purchase of any physical mining hardware. If you discount the risk of having to trust a third party rather than owning a physical piece of hardware, I'd say this asset would probably be worth somewhere around 0.01-0.015 BTC / share until ASICs cheaper than Asicminer ones are freely available. I think it will rise considerably above the IPO price in the short term, before falling sometime around when people can freely buy (and have shipped right away) ASIC hardware such as from BFL or Avalon, or if Asicminer sells future blades/USBs at a lower price.

Nice analysis, however you could also conclude that the hardware is over-priced.

[BitcoinBaBa]

I pity the person who sold 1000 TAT.VM shares at 0.0007 instead of 0.007 by mistake on bf .That's what created an interesting V in the chart.

[elefter]

So.. i did some number crunching...
a Block Erupter Blade ASICMINER   10   costs ฿ 50 and delivers 10,000 Mh/s
now lets say you use those 50 btc and buy bonds you get 50/0.007 = 7142 shares or 7,4142 Mh/s

hmm interesting...

Check your math, you've got an extra 4 in there

This asset was intentionally priced to be more expensive than a Block Erupter.

yep indeed its 7142 mh/s

[Lorren]

I pity the person who sold 1000 TAT.VM shares at 0.0007 instead of 0.007 by mistake on bf .That's what created an interesting V in the chart.

Ouch.  Pretty good deal for whoever ended up snatching that up though.