Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet without any value or legal power

[arseaboy]

I think it's the same with cash, if no one wants to use it then the money is the same as paper can be worthless. different again with gold because gold is no price is not the same as cash. while the price of money in clay from his nominal writing.

In fact it is depending on the interest of the people. some time when we take interest in some thing its value start  increasing, but when we ignore it then it also lose it value, and i think we have very good examples from our daily life. For example if we study Doge it was in its peak position when people were taking interest in it, but later one due to lack of the interest of the people Doge price start decreasing and now it is about to die.

the first thing that you said i agree with that, its how the people accept it, whose speculations that OP raises are already been ask before hand, we are now in the stage where peoples interest are already been gathered the value of this great investment  already been supported by silent businesses and yet a lots of establishment are also setting their business integrating with btc.

[HashFace]

The value of any investment that is traded on the open market is whatever someone else is willing to pay for it.  Period.  Same for Stocks.  Same for Bonds.  Same for Fiat Currency.  Same for property.  Same for baseball cards.  Same for Numismatic Coins.  Same for Paintings.  Etc.  Etc.  As long as people are willing to pay for BitCoin, it will have value.

[fxsurfer]

the first thing that you said i agree with that, its how the people accept it, whose speculations that OP raises are already been ask before hand, we are now in the stage where peoples interest are already been gathered the value of this great investment  already been supported by silent businesses and yet a lots of establishment are also setting their business integrating with btc.

Price is NOT the same as value. Value of an entity comes from its capacity to satisfy human wants. Price on the other hand is the amount of money given in payment for something. Value describes the benefits of ownership which include utility - the pleasure or satisfaction gained by consumption of a particular good or service; and rights - the ability to gain goods or services in the future(Dollars). With Bitcoins you don't have such utility as they are neither goods nor services nor rights. Bitcoins are just empty numbers. The mere fact that people are willing to buy them has nothing to do with their value.

[Hassan02]

I think it's the same with cash, if no one wants to use it then the money is the same as paper can be worthless. different again with gold because gold is no price is not the same as cash. while the price of money in clay from his nominal writing.

In fact it is depending on the interest of the people. some time when we take interest in some thing its value start  increasing, but when we ignore it then it also lose it value, and i think we have very good examples from our daily life. For example if we study Doge it was in its peak position when people were taking interest in it, but later one due to lack of the interest of the people Doge price start decreasing and now it is about to die.

the first thing that you said i agree with that, its how the people accept it, whose speculations that OP raises are already been ask before hand, we are now in the stage where peoples interest are already been gathered the value of this great investment  already been supported by silent businesses and yet a lots of establishment are also setting their business integrating with btc.

it is quiet making some move to become know by someone that has no knowledge about bitcoin there is some site that is explaining of it but what all people think is always wrong so what do we need some establishment then influence for some that is powerful for them to believe and accept this.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

what if nobody want or accept Dollars in their store or service or something like that.
what will happen ?
do you even understand how it works ?
if it's just an empty numbers on internet,why many people use Paypal,Neteller or something like that before ?
they're exchanging their Fiat to that crap or so called 'empty numbers' to pay their bills or buy something.

to make it simplier and understandable for you.
bring your FIAT (Dollars,because you mentioned it above),and spend it in ASEAN countries.
use it directly and buy something in there,
can you do it without exchange it ?
it's all about demand from the users or peoples.

there's no what if what if.

If nobody want or accept Dollars than those who received the loans and exchanged them for goods and services would not be able to settle their obligations to the bank. As a result, the bank would seize the collateral to recoup its losses and finally, those who have deposits would get some immovable or movable property.

Now it's your turn, if nobody want or accept Bitcoins what can you do with them?  

I'd pay with fiat, which I prefer anyway.  Bitcoin is an asset, and a mechanism by which you can transfer value across many miles, very quickly.   All your points are "what if's".  The reality is that people are saying bitcoin  does have value.  If businesses didn't accept it, there would still be people trading it, just like in 2009 when no one accepted it.  Could it drop to zero?  Yes, it's possible.  But your argument seems to be that because it could become worthless,  it IS worthless.   That's not true.

[KodeStr]

The majority of the money of the world is already worthless because nothing backs it up, It has intrinsic value so people agree it is acceptable in exchange for goods. Its the same as bitcoin the people have agreed it is worth something in exchange for goods. Bitcoin is more secure than real money anyway its 10X better because it's hard to be robbed and its de-centralized.

[shield132]

If bitcoin is empty number and it has no value, then we can say the same about every currency. Let's take some usd paper money, what's that? Only paper, nothing more. But there is gold behind it. How gold has any value? And why is gold taken for that, why not iron?
It's not like you say, bitcoin has it's value. Imagine you need miner to mine bitcoin, that miner needs power and you have to pay electricity bills. So it has value.. Without that we aren't silly to waste equipment for getting empty numbers.

[HashFace]

the first thing that you said i agree with that, its how the people accept it, whose speculations that OP raises are already been ask before hand, we are now in the stage where peoples interest are already been gathered the value of this great investment  already been supported by silent businesses and yet a lots of establishment are also setting their business integrating with btc.

Price is NOT the same as value. Value of an entity comes from its capacity to satisfy human wants. Price on the other hand is the amount of money given in payment for something. Value describes the benefits of ownership which include utility - the pleasure or satisfaction gained by consumption of a particular good or service; and rights - the ability to gain goods or services in the future(Dollars). With Bitcoins you don't have such utility as they are neither goods nor services nor rights. Bitcoins are just empty numbers. The mere fact that people are willing to buy them has nothing to do with their value.

So what if my "human want", and the "human want" of a few million or so other people, is to hold a digital currency?  Then would you agree Bitcoin has value?  

I mean, you could make these sort arguements about Gold.  It's a soft metal that is partically useless except for in very limited industrial applications.  But it's pretty and shiny so we price it at $20,000 a pound.  But most people who want gold as an investment put it in a safe and never admire how pretty it is ... Like Bitcoin, for some, it's utility is simply a store of value.

[Bruce Wayne]

All currency only has "value" because two individuals agree it does. Goes back to the days of trading chickens for water or other basic trades for survival.

[joinfree]

Maybe you are right, the price has ben set by the supply and demand of it, everybody is getting more involved in bitcoin and cryptocurrencies, that is why its price is increasing, but in fact, it does not have such value like $4300 (atm price). only that people are buying it at this price, that is why it is always going up, because the demand is getting higher everyday.

[fxsurfer]

I'd pay with fiat, which I prefer anyway.  Bitcoin is an asset, and a mechanism by which you can transfer value across many miles, very quickly.   All your points are "what if's".  The reality is that people are saying bitcoin  does have value.  If businesses didn't accept it, there would still be people trading it, just like in 2009 when no one accepted it.  Could it drop to zero?  Yes, it's possible.  But your argument seems to be that because it could become worthless,  it IS worthless.   That's not true.

What is the point of calling Bitcoin an asset when it is so obvious that it is not. An asset is defined as a resource with economic value that can provide future benefit. Bitcoins are just numbers on the internet and you can't eat them, drink them, wear them, drive them, sit on them, enter into them, please the aesthetic senses with them,... nor do they represent legal rights(like fiat does) which ultimetly lead to goods and services with the properties just mentioned. Thus, Bitcoins on their own are completely useles with regards to benefits and that's why they aren't an asset.

The difference between numbers on a bank account and on a Bitcoin address is like the difference between numbers on an utility bill and numbers on an empty paper. If you don't pay the bill, you will get a legal notice for non payment of the bill from the company lawyer and further a case will be established against you. Hence, numbers on an utility bill have legal power. Numbers on an empty paper do not have legal power. The same is true for numbers on a Bitcoin address - if nobody wants to accept them in exchange for goods, services and fiat, no legal case can be made to get some kind of value out of them - meaning, they possess no legal power. In the case of numbers on a bank account, if nobody want or accept them in exchange for goods and services, those who received the loans would not be able to repay their debts and a legal case would be established against them, so that those who recieved "the numbers on a bank account"(those with deposits) can be settled in some imovable or movable property.

As we can see, fiat is an asset in its true sense - an asset with the legal power that can be used and exchanged as a true market value. Bitcoin on the other hand is... NOTHING. So, people are buying 'nothing' with the hope that the price of 'nothing' will increase. Clearly, this is an antithesis of market exchange and the definition of an irrational behaviour.

[orions.belt19]

Bitcoins on the other hand, don't have value on their own, and if nobody wants to accept them in exchange for dollars, goods or services, no legal action can be taken by their 'owners' to get some kind of value out of them. As such, Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet, which means that people are exchanging real values for literally nothing.

That's all well and good, but fiat suffers from the same problem. They're just paper without demand, and you just can't magically say banks will bail you out. If your currency fails, you'd best keep in mind that you're not the only client they have to appease. There have been precedent for that, too -- currencies have failed before, the Zimbabwean Dollar being one of the most recent examples. Bitcoins have no intrinsic value, and neither does fiat.

As for legal support, well, decentralization comes with certain liberties, but at the same time, you have to let go of some privileges. We all know we're completely responsible for ourselves. One thing is for sure though: we're not trading nothing. Value is a man-made concept, and for as long as there is demand for Bitcoins, it will never be just numbers.

I agree. Fiat would also then be just numbers written on a piece of paper just as bitcoin are just numbers in the internet were it not for the demand. The demand on a currency dictates its price and gives "value" to these as well. Its users have been giving these value because they are being used by them.

It's true that most jurisdictions do not have any specifications for bitcoin yet but I don't see how this makes fiat an asset because of its legal power? Fiat is legal yes, but how is different from bitcoin in terms of legal power as OP have said? I don't quite understand what do you mean by "no legal case can be made to get some kind of value out of them". If you are referring to recovery in case of deceit or lost - then fiat is recognized whereas with bitcoin, there are no legal ways to recover them? Surely in the future there will be adjustments made for this since bitcoin is getting more and more recognized.

[Bittoshi]

Thank you for taking the time to come to this forum and explain to all of us your vast lack of knowledge about how bitcoin works, and why it has value.

Now that you've established your knowledge baseline, perhaps you'll spend some time here learning a bit about it so that you don't make the same mistake in the future.

So, if nobody wants to accept Bitcoins in exchange for dollars, goods or services, what can you do with them?

And what can you do with your fiat money (Dollars, Euros, etc.) if noone accepts it anymore because too much of it was printed and now noone wants the paper anymore? How much Bitcoins can you print? Where is the inflation, in fiat or in Bitcoins?

It's all a question of trust. As long as people (not all of course) trust in bitcoin and are willing to pay for it, there is a worth of the coins. Same goes for fiat and all currencies and assets.

[NeuroticFish]

So basically, people are paying huge amounts of money to get some empty numbers which are then recorded in a public ledger on the internet. If nobody wants to accept these numbers in exchange for dollars, goods or services, they are as useless as a random number that I write on a piece of paper.

You would be surprised, there are enough businesses don't accept Dollar bills in my country. I'd have to go to an exchange or a business that accepts them or exchanges them into my local currency.
With your definition this also makes Dollar just some painted paper, just because I'm not in America.
Please give it a real thought before posting such nonsense.

However, I think that this describes best your posts:

troll

[rjbtc2017]

Unlike numbers on a bank account, which represent legal liability of the bank and are backed by the collateral of specified real estate or other debt instrument that a borrower offers as a way for a bank to secure the loan, the numbers on a bitcoin address are completely void of any legal liability since software that creates them is not a legal entity which can have legal rights and obligations.

So basically, people are paying huge amounts of money to get some empty numbers which are then recorded in a public ledger on the internet. If nobody wants to accept these numbers in exchange for dollars, goods or services, they are as useless as a random number that I write on a piece of paper.

On the other hand, since dollars in a bank account are bank's liability, if nobody wants to accept dollars in exchange for goods and services, they will be settled over time through the legal system by transferring real assets from those who have received loans from the bank, since loans are secured by the collateral of specified immovable or movable property and they represent bank's assets. This comes from the fact that obligation to repay the debt would not vanish if nobody wants to accept dollars. Since the borrower received real assets for its dollars, in the absence of dollars the borrower's debt must also be settled by real assets. Alternatively, since dollars that are in circulation were exchanged for goods and services by some borrower and since he is obligated to repay his debt in dollars, if nobody wants to accept dollars the borrower is the one who is forced to accept them in exchange for goods and services otherwise he is unable to settle his obligation to the bank. Besides being backed by borrower's collateral, dollars are also backed by banks' capital and the ability to pay taxes. As we can see, dollars on their own, have real measurable value, just like goods or services.

Bitcoins on the other hand, don't have value on their own, and if nobody wants to accept them in exchange for dollars, goods or services, no legal action can be taken by their 'owners' to get some kind of value out of them. As such, Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet, which means that people are exchanging real values for literally nothing.

"Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet, which means that people are exchanging real values for literally nothing" really?, Look. Bitcoin is not just Bitcoins, it uses a technology for security it can be used ANYWHERE without Centralization. It also digital which you can use anywhere it has a value anywhere you'd go ( yes ! even if that country bans bitcoin, you can still use it their to transact anywhere). This is a surprisingly statement coming from a newbie. This reasoning is basic though thanks for your effort.

[AGD]

When I read the title, I thought OP was going for a scientific or maybe philosophic approach. After reading the posting I regret I wasted time reading it. Sorry, but ... OP, you don't know nothing about Bitcoin. 

[olubams]

Unlike numbers on a bank account, which represent legal liability of the bank and are backed by the collateral of specified real estate or other debt instrument that a borrower offers as a way for a bank to secure the loan, the numbers on a bitcoin address are completely void of any legal liability since software that creates them is not a legal entity which can have legal rights and obligations.

So basically, people are paying huge amounts of money to get some empty numbers which are then recorded in a public ledger on the internet. If nobody wants to accept these numbers in exchange for dollars, goods or services, they are as useless as a random number that I write on a piece of paper.

On the other hand, since dollars in a bank account are bank's liability, if nobody wants to accept dollars in exchange for goods and services, they will be settled over time through the legal system by transferring real assets from those who have received loans from the bank, since loans are secured by the collateral of specified immovable or movable property and they represent bank's assets. This comes from the fact that obligation to repay the debt would not vanish if nobody wants to accept dollars. Since the borrower received real assets for its dollars, in the absence of dollars the borrower's debt must also be settled by real assets. Alternatively, since dollars that are in circulation were exchanged for goods and services by some borrower and since he is obligated to repay his debt in dollars, if nobody wants to accept dollars the borrower is the one who is forced to accept them in exchange for goods and services otherwise he is unable to settle his obligation to the bank. Besides being backed by borrower's collateral, dollars are also backed by banks' capital and the ability to pay taxes. As we can see, dollars on their own, have real measurable value, just like goods or services.

Bitcoins on the other hand, don't have value on their own, and if nobody wants to accept them in exchange for dollars, goods or services, no legal action can be taken by their 'owners' to get some kind of value out of them. As such, Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet, which means that people are exchanging real values for literally nothing.

And here we go again over and over this thing that have been discussed times without number. You know what Op people have said worse, government have done worse, CEOs have said their own but what is happening is just reverse as the upward trend is happening what makes you think you post will make any difference is what does not cease to amaze me.

[ljtronics]

i don't know anything else to say except referring you to bitcoin.org and goldsilver.com for more education. Putting bitcoin debate aside, why do people buy and store gold ? Well bitcoin is gold 2.0 ! does it help ? let me know
PS: i'm sorry for all the negative comments toward you for your innocent, god bless you & your $$$, now go buy some bitcoin

[fishbonez11]

May i know the basis for your argument? Bitcoin is a digital currency - currency meaning it has value. You can earn it by buying or earning through siganture campaigns and other online freelance jobs. It may not be well adapted in many countries, or limited merchants accepts them as of this year, but i have read other people even paying for their meals using bitcoin. I hope you did some reading or research before writing that post, or maybe even asked first. It is not true that bitcoin are empty numbers without value because you earn it, and you can encash or spend it. There are countries who also started to legalize bitcoin. Why amd how did you even landed on this bitcoin forum if you don't believe in its value?

[nizamcc]

OP, you are basically trying hard to criticize the presence and valuation module of bitcoins bt challenging the ways that are being conducted already in the real world. You said What if nobody accepts Bitcoin? Look, it's basically a digital token that was made to transact some secret values underneath two parties' contract based on their consent and nobody knows about it (though it's not completely anonymous). So, when gold has nothing to do with it's ^value^ because it's been used since ages with people's own way to give value to it, don't you think bitcoin also possess the same properties for which it should and can be valued like gold in real world?