Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet without any value or legal power

[fxsurfer]

Unlike numbers on a bank account, which represent legal liability of the bank and are backed by the collateral of specified real estate or other debt instrument that a borrower offers as a way for a bank to secure the loan, the numbers on a bitcoin address are completely void of any legal liability since software that creates them is not a legal entity which can have legal rights and obligations.

So basically, people are paying huge amounts of money to get some empty numbers which are then recorded in a public ledger on the internet. If nobody wants to accept these numbers in exchange for dollars, goods or services, they are as useless as a random number that I write on a piece of paper.

On the other hand, since dollars in a bank account are bank's liability, if nobody wants to accept dollars in exchange for goods and services, they will be settled over time through the legal system by transferring real assets from those who have received loans from the bank, since loans are secured by the collateral of specified immovable or movable property and they represent bank's assets. This comes from the fact that obligation to repay the debt would not vanish if nobody wants to accept dollars. Since the borrower received real assets for its dollars, in the absence of dollars the borrower's debt must also be settled by real assets. Alternatively, since dollars that are in circulation were exchanged for goods and services by some borrower and since he is obligated to repay his debt in dollars, if nobody wants to accept dollars the borrower is the one who is forced to accept them in exchange for goods and services otherwise he is unable to settle his obligation to the bank. Besides being backed by borrower's collateral, dollars are also backed by banks' capital and the ability to pay taxes. As we can see, dollars on their own, have real measurable value, just like goods or services.

Bitcoins on the other hand, don't have value on their own, and if nobody wants to accept them in exchange for dollars, goods or services, no legal action can be taken by their 'owners' to get some kind of value out of them. As such, Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet, which means that people are exchanging real values for literally nothing.

[1715327603]

1715327603

[1715327603]

1715327603

[1715327603]

1715327603

[DannyHamilton]

Thank you for taking the time to come to this forum and explain to all of us your vast lack of knowledge about how bitcoin works, and why it has value.

Now that you've established your knowledge baseline, perhaps you'll spend some time here learning a bit about it so that you don't make the same mistake in the future.

[fxsurfer]

Thank you for taking the time to come to this forum and explain to all of us your vast lack of knowledge about how bitcoin works, and why it has value.

Now that you've established your knowledge baseline, perhaps you'll spend some time here learning a bit about it so that you don't make the same mistake in the future.

So, if nobody wants to accept Bitcoins in exchange for dollars, goods or services, what can you do with them?

[DaMut]

Thank you for taking the time to come to this forum and explain to all of us your vast lack of knowledge about how bitcoin works, and why it has value.

Now that you've established your knowledge baseline, perhaps you'll spend some time here learning a bit about it so that you don't make the same mistake in the future.

So, if nobody wants to accept Bitcoins in exchange for dollars, goods or services, what can you do with them?

what if nobody want or accept Dollars in their store or service or something like that.
what will happen ?
do you even understand how it works ?
if it's just an empty numbers on internet,why many people use Paypal,Neteller or something like that before ?
they're exchanging their Fiat to that crap or so called 'empty numbers' to pay their bills or buy something.

to make it simplier and understandable for you.
bring your FIAT (Dollars,because you mentioned it above),and spend it in ASEAN countries.
use it directly and buy something in there,
can you do it without exchange it ?
it's all about demand from the users or peoples.

there's no what if what if.

[aplistir]

So, if nobody wants to accept Bitcoins in exchange for dollars, goods or services, what can you do with them?

Maybe you could ask that question from people of Venezuela, Zimbabwe, or Germany (in year 1921)
Countries, where value of money was almost completely lost in recent history.

 

[inanilujimi]

Thank you for taking the time to come to this forum and explain to all of us your vast lack of knowledge about how bitcoin works, and why it has value.

Now that you've established your knowledge baseline, perhaps you'll spend some time here learning a bit about it so that you don't make the same mistake in the future.

So, if nobody wants to accept Bitcoins in exchange for dollars, goods or services, what can you do with them?

I do not understand why you ask like that
What is clear is that bitcoin can not be converted by dollars or goods and services definitely bitcoin no use anymore in this world.
But that would not be possible
You should first understand what is bitcoin and then you argue.

[andytranter]

Unlike numbers on a bank account, which represent legal liability of the bank and are backed by the collateral of specified real estate or other debt instrument that a borrower offers as a way for a bank to secure the loan, the numbers on a bitcoin address are completely void of any legal liability since software that creates them is not a legal entity which can have legal rights and obligations.

So basically, people are paying huge amounts of money to get some empty numbers which are then recorded in a public ledger on the internet. If nobody wants to accept these numbers in exchange for dollars, goods or services, they are as useless as a random number that I write on a piece of paper.

On the other hand, since dollars in a bank account are bank's liability, if nobody wants to accept dollars in exchange for goods and services, they will be settled over time through the legal system by transferring real assets from those who have received loans from the bank, since loans are secured by the collateral of specified immovable or movable property and they represent bank's assets. This comes from the fact that obligation to repay the debt would not vanish if nobody wants to accept dollars. Since the borrower received real assets for its dollars, in the absence of dollars the borrower's debt must also be settled by real assets. Alternatively, since dollars that are in circulation were exchanged for goods and services by some borrower and since he is obligated to repay his debt in dollars, if nobody wants to accept dollars the borrower is the one who is forced to accept them in exchange for goods and services otherwise he is unable to settle his obligation to the bank. Besides being backed by borrower's collateral, dollars are also backed by banks' capital and the ability to pay taxes. As we can see, dollars on their own, have real measurable value, just like goods or services.

Bitcoins on the other hand, don't have value on their own, and if nobody wants to accept them in exchange for dollars, goods or services, no legal action can be taken by their 'owners' to get some kind of value out of them. As such, Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet, which means that people are exchanging real values for literally nothing.

I personally agree with most of what you have just said. This was particularly true in the early days of bitcoin - very few people accepted them as payment, and hence the value was very low.

However, that is no longer the case. Bitcoin is accepted in many places and more importantly - exchanges will give you $ for your bitcoin. This is similar for Paypal. Paypal gives you cash for your paypal tokens when you choose to withdraw them. Until you do, they are just paypal tokens that sit in the paypal wallet. At least bitcoin has several wallet and exchanges!

Many people believe bitcoin will gain more credibility in the near future, and "invest" in this future by contributing to mining and using the currency in its infancy.

Just look at the speed of growth for paypal! Once they partnered with ebay they were flying!

Maybe it takes one big company like this to really get bitcoin growing. Someone like uber would be perfect.

[fxsurfer]

what if nobody want or accept Dollars in their store or service or something like that.
what will happen ?
do you even understand how it works ?
if it's just an empty numbers on internet,why many people use Paypal,Neteller or something like that before ?
they're exchanging their Fiat to that crap or so called 'empty numbers' to pay their bills or buy something.

to make it simplier and understandable for you.
bring your FIAT (Dollars,because you mentioned it above),and spend it in ASEAN countries.
use it directly and buy something in there,
can you do it without exchange it ?
it's all about demand from the users or peoples.

there's no what if what if.

If nobody want or accept Dollars than those who received the loans and exchanged them for goods and services would not be able to settle their obligations to the bank. As a result, the bank would seize the collateral to recoup its losses and finally, those who have deposits would get some immovable or movable property.

Now it's your turn, if nobody want or accept Bitcoins what can you do with them?  

[hdclover]

Thank you for taking the time to come to this forum and explain to all of us your vast lack of knowledge about how bitcoin works, and why it has value.

Now that you've established your knowledge baseline, perhaps you'll spend some time here learning a bit about it so that you don't make the same mistake in the future.

So, if nobody wants to accept Bitcoins in exchange for dollars, goods or services, what can you do with them?

Welcome to this forum!
Why do you think nobody accepts BTC as a payment method?
I am proudly saying this: I accept BTC (Some other alts also) for my service, web and graphic designing service to be precise. After adding BTC on my site as a method of payment, Sales also got increased. Many people use BTC may be for your knowledge you haven't come across anyone.

I'm not comparing with PayPal which is a rip off for sellers. Buyers always win no matter if they are legit or scam

[Kprawn]

Thank you for taking the time to come to this forum and explain to all of us your vast lack of knowledge about how bitcoin works, and why it has value.

Now that you've established your knowledge baseline, perhaps you'll spend some time here learning a bit about it so that you don't make the same mistake in the future.

So, if nobody wants to accept Bitcoins in exchange for dollars, goods or services, what can you do with them?

It should be the other way around. Bitcoin users should deal directly with other Bitcoin users, without the need to convert

bitcoins to reserve currencies. {reserve currencies are being manipulated by governments to serve their political agendas}

When you live in a country where Banks close their doors and people cannot have access to their own money or where your

currency are used for toilet paper, then you will learn to appreciate what Bitcoin bring to the table. 

We do not want to convert to Fiat currencies, but in many instances we still have to because not every merchant accepts

Bitcoin YET.

[fxsurfer]

I personally agree with most of what you have just said. This was particularly true in the early days of bitcoin - very few people accepted them as payment, and hence the value was very low.

However, that is no longer the case. Bitcoin is accepted in many places and more importantly - exchanges will give you $ for your bitcoin. This is similar for Paypal. Paypal gives you cash for your paypal tokens when you choose to withdraw them. Until you do, they are just paypal tokens that sit in the paypal wallet. At least bitcoin has several wallet and exchanges!

Many people believe bitcoin will gain more credibility in the near future, and "invest" in this future by contributing to mining and using the currency in its infancy.

Just look at the speed of growth for paypal! Once they partnered with ebay they were flying!

Maybe it takes one big company like this to really get bitcoin growing. Someone like uber would be perfect.

Value comes from utility - the capacity of an entity to satisfy human wants. Number on your Bitcoin address does not have such capacity. If nobody want or accept Bitcoins you are unable to take legal action in order to get some kind of value out of them that can lead to satisfying of human wants. Hence, Bitcoin doesn't have any value of it's own. If people are buying X, and X doesn't have value of it's own, than this is irrational behaviour and not something that gives value to X.

[HitbtcSCAM]

Unlike numbers on a bank account, which represent legal liability of the bank and are backed by the collateral of specified real estate or other debt instrument that a borrower offers as a way for a bank to secure the loan, the numbers on a bitcoin address are completely void of any legal liability since software that creates them is not a legal entity which can have legal rights and obligations.

So basically, people are paying huge amounts of money to get some empty numbers which are then recorded in a public ledger on the internet. If nobody wants to accept these numbers in exchange for dollars, goods or services, they are as useless as a random number that I write on a piece of paper.

On the other hand, since dollars in a bank account are bank's liability, if nobody wants to accept dollars in exchange for goods and services, they will be settled over time through the legal system by transferring real assets from those who have received loans from the bank, since loans are secured by the collateral of specified immovable or movable property and they represent bank's assets. This comes from the fact that obligation to repay the debt would not vanish if nobody wants to accept dollars. Since the borrower received real assets for its dollars, in the absence of dollars the borrower's debt must also be settled by real assets. Alternatively, since dollars that are in circulation were exchanged for goods and services by some borrower and since he is obligated to repay his debt in dollars, if nobody wants to accept dollars the borrower is the one who is forced to accept them in exchange for goods and services otherwise he is unable to settle his obligation to the bank. Besides being backed by borrower's collateral, dollars are also backed by banks' capital and the ability to pay taxes. As we can see, dollars on their own, have real measurable value, just like goods or services.

Bitcoins on the other hand, don't have value on their own, and if nobody wants to accept them in exchange for dollars, goods or services, no legal action can be taken by their 'owners' to get some kind of value out of them. As such, Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet, which means that people are exchanging real values for literally nothing.

So you are saying banks = security.
All organizations controlled by humans are corrupt. I was just robbed by Hitbtc.com for 130,000 usd.You want to think that the humans are good and trustworthy but they are not.Any bank can take your money.The fed who gives the value to the money is printing more and more paper all the time.Based on supply and demand simple rules dollars and paper mafia/govt money has no value.Bitcoin is limited it has value because of that and when billions of people are fighting over 20 million coins then you will see the effect supply and demand has on prices.

[jseverson]

Bitcoins on the other hand, don't have value on their own, and if nobody wants to accept them in exchange for dollars, goods or services, no legal action can be taken by their 'owners' to get some kind of value out of them. As such, Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet, which means that people are exchanging real values for literally nothing.

That's all well and good, but fiat suffers from the same problem. They're just paper without demand, and you just can't magically say banks will bail you out. If your currency fails, you'd best keep in mind that you're not the only client they have to appease. There have been precedent for that, too -- currencies have failed before, the Zimbabwean Dollar being one of the most recent examples. Bitcoins have no intrinsic value, and neither does fiat.

As for legal support, well, decentralization comes with certain liberties, but at the same time, you have to let go of some privileges. We all know we're completely responsible for ourselves. One thing is for sure though: we're not trading nothing. Value is a man-made concept, and for as long as there is demand for Bitcoins, it will never be just numbers.

[valisa]

I think it's the same with cash, if no one wants to use it then the money is the same as paper can be worthless. different again with gold because gold is no price is not the same as cash. while the price of money in clay from his nominal writing.

[bob123]

Not a big difference to the green paper with numbers on it which you love so much.
Value is directed by supply and demand. And BTC is definetly not just random numbers on the Internet

[RelBunny]

what if nobody want or accept Dollars in their store or service or something like that.
what will happen ?
do you even understand how it works ?
if it's just an empty numbers on internet,why many people use Paypal,Neteller or something like that before ?
they're exchanging their Fiat to that crap or so called 'empty numbers' to pay their bills or buy something.

to make it simplier and understandable for you.
bring your FIAT (Dollars,because you mentioned it above),and spend it in ASEAN countries.
use it directly and buy something in there,
can you do it without exchange it ?
it's all about demand from the users or peoples.

there's no what if what if.

If nobody want or accept Dollars than those who received the loans and exchanged them for goods and services would not be able to settle their obligations to the bank. As a result, the bank would seize the collateral to recoup its losses and finally, those who have deposits would get some immovable or movable property.

Now it's your turn, if nobody want or accept Bitcoins what can you do with them?  

If you go to some foreign country with dollars in your pocket, your dollars are not worth anything. You have to go to the exchange office and exchange it for local currency.
Similarly, if you want to send money to someone who doesn't accept bitcoin, you have to exchange it for the currency that is accepted (mind you, bitcoin is starting to get accepted more and more).

Alternatively, you might be able to pay with a card without having to exchange your currency, but that just means someone else did the exchange for you.


There is not much difference between dollar and bitcoin in that regard.
If bitcoin gets obliterated, some would have won, some would have lost.
If dollar gets obliterated, banks would have won, everyone else would have lost.

You see, you loaned your dollars to the bank (if you have it in their account). If it's suddenly worthless, too bad for you. Either the bank can give it back to you although it's worthless (good luck with spending that), or it can't give it back to you because they don't have it (ask for example someone from Greece if they were able to get their money not that long ago). Either way, there's nothing in for you, you're not getting any property (bank only owed you some dollars, there is no collateral here, as opposed to when you take a loan from the bank - i.e. bank giveth, bank taketh away). Theoretically, depending on the law, you might be able to apply for some of the property that bank seized, but with many people applying, you are getting next to nothing.

Value comes from utility - the capacity of an entity to satisfy human wants. Number on your Bitcoin address does not have such capacity. If nobody want or accept Bitcoins you are unable to take legal action in order to get some kind of value out of them that can lead to satisfying of human wants. Hence, Bitcoin doesn't have any value of it's own. If people are buying X, and X doesn't have value of it's own, than this is irrational behaviour and not something that gives value to X.

Value comes from utility - the capacity of an entity to satisfy human wants. Number on your Dollar does not have such capacity. If nobody want or accept Dollars you are unable to take legal action in order to get some kind of value out of them that can lead to satisfying of human wants. Hence, Dollar doesn't have any value of it's own. If people are buying X, and X doesn't have value of it's own, than this is irrational behaviour and not something that gives value to X.
You see, if you have XYZ dollars in your bank account, and dollar gets terribly inflated, bank does not adjust your account value for that inflation. They still only owe you XYZ dollars, which in this hypothetical situation is worth (next to) nothing. Same thing if you keep your dollar in your pocket, you can now buy something with it because someone said so, but if they say you can't do it anymore, then you just can't.




What I think you misunderstood about bitcoin is that you think it's just some random sequence of numbers. Well, it's not, at least not more than the sequence of numbers in your bank account. The only major difference is who's controlling the flow of these numbers and what they take in return.

[Proton2233]

In fact, the dollars also have no real price. You don't know. Perhaps the paper is not drawn where the dollar is worth more than the dollar itself. The banking system is manipulating a turnover of paper money and hence manipulating their value. You yourself acknowledge the fact that the set of random numbers on the Internet is much more expensive than dollars.

[naf]

troll

[SmokeMcPay]

Bitcoins on the other hand, don't have value on their own, and if nobody wants to accept them in exchange for dollars, goods or services, no legal action can be taken by their 'owners' to get some kind of value out of them. As such, Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet, which means that people are exchanging real values for literally nothing.

That's all well and good, but fiat suffers from the same problem. They're just paper without demand, and you just can't magically say banks will bail you out. If your currency fails, you'd best keep in mind that you're not the only client they have to appease. There have been precedent for that, too -- currencies have failed before, the Zimbabwean Dollar being one of the most recent examples. Bitcoins have no intrinsic value, and neither does fiat.

As for legal support, well, decentralization comes with certain liberties, but at the same time, you have to let go of some privileges. We all know we're completely responsible for ourselves. One thing is for sure though: we're not trading nothing. Value is a man-made concept, and for as long as there is demand for Bitcoins, it will never be just numbers.

Completely agree with you.

Cryptocurrency dynamics are very similar than fiat currency, and like more people said 'Value' is not something that exists, is an attribute.

For these saying 'BTC is worthless, otherwise why it isn't accepted as a payment method globally' is because of people inexperience. Would you begin operating with something you are not sure how/why it works? I don't think so, more when it comes to money; currency is 'safer' because a bank 'covers' you whether a national bank or a private bank, 'physical' is better because you can actually have an ownership feeling over it, 'virtual' is harder to acknowledge & understand, what if my 000's sequence just disappear from the net? .

These thoughts are what are preventing BTC to be global widespread.

The implementation of crypto at a global scale at this point depends on gobernments and innovation.

[Zenithar]

I think it's the same with cash, if no one wants to use it then the money is the same as paper can be worthless. different again with gold because gold is no price is not the same as cash. while the price of money in clay from his nominal writing.

In fact it is depending on the interest of the people. some time when we take interest in some thing its value start  increasing, but when we ignore it then it also lose it value, and i think we have very good examples from our daily life. For example if we study Doge it was in its peak position when people were taking interest in it, but later one due to lack of the interest of the people Doge price start decreasing and now it is about to die.

[arseaboy]

I think it's the same with cash, if no one wants to use it then the money is the same as paper can be worthless. different again with gold because gold is no price is not the same as cash. while the price of money in clay from his nominal writing.

In fact it is depending on the interest of the people. some time when we take interest in some thing its value start  increasing, but when we ignore it then it also lose it value, and i think we have very good examples from our daily life. For example if we study Doge it was in its peak position when people were taking interest in it, but later one due to lack of the interest of the people Doge price start decreasing and now it is about to die.

the first thing that you said i agree with that, its how the people accept it, whose speculations that OP raises are already been ask before hand, we are now in the stage where peoples interest are already been gathered the value of this great investment  already been supported by silent businesses and yet a lots of establishment are also setting their business integrating with btc.

[HashFace]

The value of any investment that is traded on the open market is whatever someone else is willing to pay for it.  Period.  Same for Stocks.  Same for Bonds.  Same for Fiat Currency.  Same for property.  Same for baseball cards.  Same for Numismatic Coins.  Same for Paintings.  Etc.  Etc.  As long as people are willing to pay for BitCoin, it will have value.

[fxsurfer]

the first thing that you said i agree with that, its how the people accept it, whose speculations that OP raises are already been ask before hand, we are now in the stage where peoples interest are already been gathered the value of this great investment  already been supported by silent businesses and yet a lots of establishment are also setting their business integrating with btc.

Price is NOT the same as value. Value of an entity comes from its capacity to satisfy human wants. Price on the other hand is the amount of money given in payment for something. Value describes the benefits of ownership which include utility - the pleasure or satisfaction gained by consumption of a particular good or service; and rights - the ability to gain goods or services in the future(Dollars). With Bitcoins you don't have such utility as they are neither goods nor services nor rights. Bitcoins are just empty numbers. The mere fact that people are willing to buy them has nothing to do with their value.

[Hassan02]

I think it's the same with cash, if no one wants to use it then the money is the same as paper can be worthless. different again with gold because gold is no price is not the same as cash. while the price of money in clay from his nominal writing.

In fact it is depending on the interest of the people. some time when we take interest in some thing its value start  increasing, but when we ignore it then it also lose it value, and i think we have very good examples from our daily life. For example if we study Doge it was in its peak position when people were taking interest in it, but later one due to lack of the interest of the people Doge price start decreasing and now it is about to die.

the first thing that you said i agree with that, its how the people accept it, whose speculations that OP raises are already been ask before hand, we are now in the stage where peoples interest are already been gathered the value of this great investment  already been supported by silent businesses and yet a lots of establishment are also setting their business integrating with btc.

it is quiet making some move to become know by someone that has no knowledge about bitcoin there is some site that is explaining of it but what all people think is always wrong so what do we need some establishment then influence for some that is powerful for them to believe and accept this.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

what if nobody want or accept Dollars in their store or service or something like that.
what will happen ?
do you even understand how it works ?
if it's just an empty numbers on internet,why many people use Paypal,Neteller or something like that before ?
they're exchanging their Fiat to that crap or so called 'empty numbers' to pay their bills or buy something.

to make it simplier and understandable for you.
bring your FIAT (Dollars,because you mentioned it above),and spend it in ASEAN countries.
use it directly and buy something in there,
can you do it without exchange it ?
it's all about demand from the users or peoples.

there's no what if what if.

If nobody want or accept Dollars than those who received the loans and exchanged them for goods and services would not be able to settle their obligations to the bank. As a result, the bank would seize the collateral to recoup its losses and finally, those who have deposits would get some immovable or movable property.

Now it's your turn, if nobody want or accept Bitcoins what can you do with them?  

I'd pay with fiat, which I prefer anyway.  Bitcoin is an asset, and a mechanism by which you can transfer value across many miles, very quickly.   All your points are "what if's".  The reality is that people are saying bitcoin  does have value.  If businesses didn't accept it, there would still be people trading it, just like in 2009 when no one accepted it.  Could it drop to zero?  Yes, it's possible.  But your argument seems to be that because it could become worthless,  it IS worthless.   That's not true.

[KodeStr]

The majority of the money of the world is already worthless because nothing backs it up, It has intrinsic value so people agree it is acceptable in exchange for goods. Its the same as bitcoin the people have agreed it is worth something in exchange for goods. Bitcoin is more secure than real money anyway its 10X better because it's hard to be robbed and its de-centralized.

[shield132]

If bitcoin is empty number and it has no value, then we can say the same about every currency. Let's take some usd paper money, what's that? Only paper, nothing more. But there is gold behind it. How gold has any value? And why is gold taken for that, why not iron?
It's not like you say, bitcoin has it's value. Imagine you need miner to mine bitcoin, that miner needs power and you have to pay electricity bills. So it has value.. Without that we aren't silly to waste equipment for getting empty numbers.

[HashFace]

the first thing that you said i agree with that, its how the people accept it, whose speculations that OP raises are already been ask before hand, we are now in the stage where peoples interest are already been gathered the value of this great investment  already been supported by silent businesses and yet a lots of establishment are also setting their business integrating with btc.

Price is NOT the same as value. Value of an entity comes from its capacity to satisfy human wants. Price on the other hand is the amount of money given in payment for something. Value describes the benefits of ownership which include utility - the pleasure or satisfaction gained by consumption of a particular good or service; and rights - the ability to gain goods or services in the future(Dollars). With Bitcoins you don't have such utility as they are neither goods nor services nor rights. Bitcoins are just empty numbers. The mere fact that people are willing to buy them has nothing to do with their value.

So what if my "human want", and the "human want" of a few million or so other people, is to hold a digital currency?  Then would you agree Bitcoin has value?  

I mean, you could make these sort arguements about Gold.  It's a soft metal that is partically useless except for in very limited industrial applications.  But it's pretty and shiny so we price it at $20,000 a pound.  But most people who want gold as an investment put it in a safe and never admire how pretty it is ... Like Bitcoin, for some, it's utility is simply a store of value.

[Bruce Wayne]

All currency only has "value" because two individuals agree it does. Goes back to the days of trading chickens for water or other basic trades for survival.

[joinfree]

Maybe you are right, the price has ben set by the supply and demand of it, everybody is getting more involved in bitcoin and cryptocurrencies, that is why its price is increasing, but in fact, it does not have such value like $4300 (atm price). only that people are buying it at this price, that is why it is always going up, because the demand is getting higher everyday.

[fxsurfer]

I'd pay with fiat, which I prefer anyway.  Bitcoin is an asset, and a mechanism by which you can transfer value across many miles, very quickly.   All your points are "what if's".  The reality is that people are saying bitcoin  does have value.  If businesses didn't accept it, there would still be people trading it, just like in 2009 when no one accepted it.  Could it drop to zero?  Yes, it's possible.  But your argument seems to be that because it could become worthless,  it IS worthless.   That's not true.

What is the point of calling Bitcoin an asset when it is so obvious that it is not. An asset is defined as a resource with economic value that can provide future benefit. Bitcoins are just numbers on the internet and you can't eat them, drink them, wear them, drive them, sit on them, enter into them, please the aesthetic senses with them,... nor do they represent legal rights(like fiat does) which ultimetly lead to goods and services with the properties just mentioned. Thus, Bitcoins on their own are completely useles with regards to benefits and that's why they aren't an asset.

The difference between numbers on a bank account and on a Bitcoin address is like the difference between numbers on an utility bill and numbers on an empty paper. If you don't pay the bill, you will get a legal notice for non payment of the bill from the company lawyer and further a case will be established against you. Hence, numbers on an utility bill have legal power. Numbers on an empty paper do not have legal power. The same is true for numbers on a Bitcoin address - if nobody wants to accept them in exchange for goods, services and fiat, no legal case can be made to get some kind of value out of them - meaning, they possess no legal power. In the case of numbers on a bank account, if nobody want or accept them in exchange for goods and services, those who received the loans would not be able to repay their debts and a legal case would be established against them, so that those who recieved "the numbers on a bank account"(those with deposits) can be settled in some imovable or movable property.

As we can see, fiat is an asset in its true sense - an asset with the legal power that can be used and exchanged as a true market value. Bitcoin on the other hand is... NOTHING. So, people are buying 'nothing' with the hope that the price of 'nothing' will increase. Clearly, this is an antithesis of market exchange and the definition of an irrational behaviour.

[orions.belt19]

Bitcoins on the other hand, don't have value on their own, and if nobody wants to accept them in exchange for dollars, goods or services, no legal action can be taken by their 'owners' to get some kind of value out of them. As such, Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet, which means that people are exchanging real values for literally nothing.

That's all well and good, but fiat suffers from the same problem. They're just paper without demand, and you just can't magically say banks will bail you out. If your currency fails, you'd best keep in mind that you're not the only client they have to appease. There have been precedent for that, too -- currencies have failed before, the Zimbabwean Dollar being one of the most recent examples. Bitcoins have no intrinsic value, and neither does fiat.

As for legal support, well, decentralization comes with certain liberties, but at the same time, you have to let go of some privileges. We all know we're completely responsible for ourselves. One thing is for sure though: we're not trading nothing. Value is a man-made concept, and for as long as there is demand for Bitcoins, it will never be just numbers.

I agree. Fiat would also then be just numbers written on a piece of paper just as bitcoin are just numbers in the internet were it not for the demand. The demand on a currency dictates its price and gives "value" to these as well. Its users have been giving these value because they are being used by them.

It's true that most jurisdictions do not have any specifications for bitcoin yet but I don't see how this makes fiat an asset because of its legal power? Fiat is legal yes, but how is different from bitcoin in terms of legal power as OP have said? I don't quite understand what do you mean by "no legal case can be made to get some kind of value out of them". If you are referring to recovery in case of deceit or lost - then fiat is recognized whereas with bitcoin, there are no legal ways to recover them? Surely in the future there will be adjustments made for this since bitcoin is getting more and more recognized.

[Bittoshi]

Thank you for taking the time to come to this forum and explain to all of us your vast lack of knowledge about how bitcoin works, and why it has value.

Now that you've established your knowledge baseline, perhaps you'll spend some time here learning a bit about it so that you don't make the same mistake in the future.

So, if nobody wants to accept Bitcoins in exchange for dollars, goods or services, what can you do with them?

And what can you do with your fiat money (Dollars, Euros, etc.) if noone accepts it anymore because too much of it was printed and now noone wants the paper anymore? How much Bitcoins can you print? Where is the inflation, in fiat or in Bitcoins?

It's all a question of trust. As long as people (not all of course) trust in bitcoin and are willing to pay for it, there is a worth of the coins. Same goes for fiat and all currencies and assets.

[NeuroticFish]

So basically, people are paying huge amounts of money to get some empty numbers which are then recorded in a public ledger on the internet. If nobody wants to accept these numbers in exchange for dollars, goods or services, they are as useless as a random number that I write on a piece of paper.

You would be surprised, there are enough businesses don't accept Dollar bills in my country. I'd have to go to an exchange or a business that accepts them or exchanges them into my local currency.
With your definition this also makes Dollar just some painted paper, just because I'm not in America.
Please give it a real thought before posting such nonsense.

However, I think that this describes best your posts:

troll

[rjbtc2017]

Unlike numbers on a bank account, which represent legal liability of the bank and are backed by the collateral of specified real estate or other debt instrument that a borrower offers as a way for a bank to secure the loan, the numbers on a bitcoin address are completely void of any legal liability since software that creates them is not a legal entity which can have legal rights and obligations.

So basically, people are paying huge amounts of money to get some empty numbers which are then recorded in a public ledger on the internet. If nobody wants to accept these numbers in exchange for dollars, goods or services, they are as useless as a random number that I write on a piece of paper.

On the other hand, since dollars in a bank account are bank's liability, if nobody wants to accept dollars in exchange for goods and services, they will be settled over time through the legal system by transferring real assets from those who have received loans from the bank, since loans are secured by the collateral of specified immovable or movable property and they represent bank's assets. This comes from the fact that obligation to repay the debt would not vanish if nobody wants to accept dollars. Since the borrower received real assets for its dollars, in the absence of dollars the borrower's debt must also be settled by real assets. Alternatively, since dollars that are in circulation were exchanged for goods and services by some borrower and since he is obligated to repay his debt in dollars, if nobody wants to accept dollars the borrower is the one who is forced to accept them in exchange for goods and services otherwise he is unable to settle his obligation to the bank. Besides being backed by borrower's collateral, dollars are also backed by banks' capital and the ability to pay taxes. As we can see, dollars on their own, have real measurable value, just like goods or services.

Bitcoins on the other hand, don't have value on their own, and if nobody wants to accept them in exchange for dollars, goods or services, no legal action can be taken by their 'owners' to get some kind of value out of them. As such, Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet, which means that people are exchanging real values for literally nothing.

"Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet, which means that people are exchanging real values for literally nothing" really?, Look. Bitcoin is not just Bitcoins, it uses a technology for security it can be used ANYWHERE without Centralization. It also digital which you can use anywhere it has a value anywhere you'd go ( yes ! even if that country bans bitcoin, you can still use it their to transact anywhere). This is a surprisingly statement coming from a newbie. This reasoning is basic though thanks for your effort.

[AGD]

When I read the title, I thought OP was going for a scientific or maybe philosophic approach. After reading the posting I regret I wasted time reading it. Sorry, but ... OP, you don't know nothing about Bitcoin. 

[olubams]

Unlike numbers on a bank account, which represent legal liability of the bank and are backed by the collateral of specified real estate or other debt instrument that a borrower offers as a way for a bank to secure the loan, the numbers on a bitcoin address are completely void of any legal liability since software that creates them is not a legal entity which can have legal rights and obligations.

So basically, people are paying huge amounts of money to get some empty numbers which are then recorded in a public ledger on the internet. If nobody wants to accept these numbers in exchange for dollars, goods or services, they are as useless as a random number that I write on a piece of paper.

On the other hand, since dollars in a bank account are bank's liability, if nobody wants to accept dollars in exchange for goods and services, they will be settled over time through the legal system by transferring real assets from those who have received loans from the bank, since loans are secured by the collateral of specified immovable or movable property and they represent bank's assets. This comes from the fact that obligation to repay the debt would not vanish if nobody wants to accept dollars. Since the borrower received real assets for its dollars, in the absence of dollars the borrower's debt must also be settled by real assets. Alternatively, since dollars that are in circulation were exchanged for goods and services by some borrower and since he is obligated to repay his debt in dollars, if nobody wants to accept dollars the borrower is the one who is forced to accept them in exchange for goods and services otherwise he is unable to settle his obligation to the bank. Besides being backed by borrower's collateral, dollars are also backed by banks' capital and the ability to pay taxes. As we can see, dollars on their own, have real measurable value, just like goods or services.

Bitcoins on the other hand, don't have value on their own, and if nobody wants to accept them in exchange for dollars, goods or services, no legal action can be taken by their 'owners' to get some kind of value out of them. As such, Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet, which means that people are exchanging real values for literally nothing.

And here we go again over and over this thing that have been discussed times without number. You know what Op people have said worse, government have done worse, CEOs have said their own but what is happening is just reverse as the upward trend is happening what makes you think you post will make any difference is what does not cease to amaze me.

[ljtronics]

i don't know anything else to say except referring you to bitcoin.org and goldsilver.com for more education. Putting bitcoin debate aside, why do people buy and store gold ? Well bitcoin is gold 2.0 ! does it help ? let me know
PS: i'm sorry for all the negative comments toward you for your innocent, god bless you & your $$$, now go buy some bitcoin

[fishbonez11]

May i know the basis for your argument? Bitcoin is a digital currency - currency meaning it has value. You can earn it by buying or earning through siganture campaigns and other online freelance jobs. It may not be well adapted in many countries, or limited merchants accepts them as of this year, but i have read other people even paying for their meals using bitcoin. I hope you did some reading or research before writing that post, or maybe even asked first. It is not true that bitcoin are empty numbers without value because you earn it, and you can encash or spend it. There are countries who also started to legalize bitcoin. Why amd how did you even landed on this bitcoin forum if you don't believe in its value?

[nizamcc]

OP, you are basically trying hard to criticize the presence and valuation module of bitcoins bt challenging the ways that are being conducted already in the real world. You said What if nobody accepts Bitcoin? Look, it's basically a digital token that was made to transact some secret values underneath two parties' contract based on their consent and nobody knows about it (though it's not completely anonymous). So, when gold has nothing to do with it's ^value^ because it's been used since ages with people's own way to give value to it, don't you think bitcoin also possess the same properties for which it should and can be valued like gold in real world?

[fxsurfer]

And what can you do with your fiat money (Dollars, Euros, etc.) if noone accepts it anymore because too much of it was printed and now noone wants the paper anymore? How much Bitcoins can you print? Where is the inflation, in fiat or in Bitcoins?

It's all a question of trust. As long as people (not all of course) trust in bitcoin and are willing to pay for it, there is a worth of the coins. Same goes for fiat and all currencies and assets.

I already answered this. Since Dollars are backed by debt, and debt is backed by collateral of specified immovable or movable property, if nobody wants to accept dollars those who recieved the loans are forced to accept them since otherwise they would not be able to repay their debts, a legal case would be established against them, and the bank would take their property. No such legal obligations are behind Bitcoins as the software that creates them is not a legal entity which can have legal rights and obligations. That's why, on their own, Bitcoins are completely useless.

[jekjekman]

Unlike numbers on a bank account, which represent legal liability of the bank and are backed by the collateral of specified real estate or other debt instrument that a borrower offers as a way for a bank to secure the loan, the numbers on a bitcoin address are completely void of any legal liability since software that creates them is not a legal entity which can have legal rights and obligations.

So basically, people are paying huge amounts of money to get some empty numbers which are then recorded in a public ledger on the internet. If nobody wants to accept these numbers in exchange for dollars, goods or services, they are as useless as a random number that I write on a piece of paper.

On the other hand, since dollars in a bank account are bank's liability, if nobody wants to accept dollars in exchange for goods and services, they will be settled over time through the legal system by transferring real assets from those who have received loans from the bank, since loans are secured by the collateral of specified immovable or movable property and they represent bank's assets. This comes from the fact that obligation to repay the debt would not vanish if nobody wants to accept dollars. Since the borrower received real assets for its dollars, in the absence of dollars the borrower's debt must also be settled by real assets. Alternatively, since dollars that are in circulation were exchanged for goods and services by some borrower and since he is obligated to repay his debt in dollars, if nobody wants to accept dollars the borrower is the one who is forced to accept them in exchange for goods and services otherwise he is unable to settle his obligation to the bank. Besides being backed by borrower's collateral, dollars are also backed by banks' capital and the ability to pay taxes. As we can see, dollars on their own, have real measurable value, just like goods or services.

Bitcoins on the other hand, don't have value on their own, and if nobody wants to accept them in exchange for dollars, goods or services, no legal action can be taken by their 'owners' to get some kind of value out of them. As such, Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet, which means that people are exchanging real values for literally nothing.

Good luck to your opinion though but I just withdrawn with my Bitcoin into my Fiat local money amounting $1000 yesterday and I guarantee you that it is not an empty numbers because I am now spending it with my things and food. This is a modern technology digital currency and we are here in the digital world so I think it is necessary to have it, they are still haters that really can't accept that fact.

Bitcoins as of now when I am typing this is backed up by $72,987,343,018 and with that I am confident that it has a value and not an empty numbers because it is full of numbers that resulted of billions. It is true that Bitcoin is not tangible but it has a value right now even you deny it all day.

[iram1011]

Right, Bitcoin doesn't have any "intrinsic value", but so does the $1 bill. In truth, almost nothing in the world of trading and money has “intrinsic value.” Money has only the value that is ascribed to it over time. Fiat currency, issued by nations, has always faced distrust from skeptics who say it is backed only a government’s good faith. Then comes gold, gold itself has no intrinsic value. Its supply is limited (as is bitcoin, a strength of the digital currency), creating a relationship between supply and demand that cannot easily be manipulated. But gold itself has no value per se other than that ascribed to it by humans over time.

Bitcoin is disruptive technology opening new avenues of exchange and enrichment, empowering individuals, and weakening the hold of the state and large corporations, it do have potential even if the price is running on faith and supply and demand. It can sustain its value.

[Pursuer]

it always amuses me to see how some people go through all the trouble of creating a new account, typing some long text on a "bitcoin oriented forum" which majority of its users understand bitcoin even if it is little understanding, and then they speak of bitcoin without any understanding of it.

saying it on a regular forum that regular people visit may fool one or two gullible ones, but here....

[fxsurfer]

Good luck to your opinion though but I just withdrawn with my Bitcoin into my Fiat local money amounting $1000 yesterday and I guarantee you that it is not an empty numbers because I am now spending it with my things and food. This is a modern technology digital currency and we are here in the digital world so I think it is necessary to have it, they are still haters that really can't accept that fact.

Bitcoins as of now when I am typing this is backed up by $72,987,343,018 and with that I am confident that it has a value and not an empty numbers because it is full of numbers that resulted of billions. It is true that Bitcoin is not tangible but it has a value right now even you deny it all day.

Of course that you can exchange Bitcoins for fiat, goods and services - this is their basic purpose, that's why they even exist in the first place and this is how those who inveneted them are coming into possession of real property in exchange for nothing.

What I am arguing is that Bitcoins are just emptly numbers without any real value to its owner - he can't eat them, drink them, wear them, drive them, sit on them, enter into them, please the aesthetic senses with them or made a legal case to come into possession of goods and services with such capacities, like in the case of fiat. Simply put, those who invented Bitcoin received real market values in the form of goods, services and fiat, in exchange for some empty numbers recorded in a public ledger called a blockchain. Can this blockchain be used to satisfy human needs? No. Can this blockchain be used to establish a legal case and get some kind of value out of it? No. Thus, Bitcoin is neither good nor service nor money not asset, but instead it is some empty number on the internet.

[BingoDog]

Everyone has the right to the opinion, I can't deny that but I would like to see some real agruments and informations for whatever the attitude is. Bitcoin has the value that can't be measured on traditional way like classic fiat currencies and not the same rules can't be applied. But for understanding that some knowledge about bitcoin, cryptocurrencies and blockchain is needed but that is obviously mising here.

[fxsurfer]

Right, Bitcoin doesn't have any "intrinsic value", but so does the $1 bill. In truth, almost nothing in the world of trading and money has “intrinsic value.” Money has only the value that is ascribed to it over time. Fiat currency, issued by nations, has always faced distrust from skeptics who say it is backed only a government’s good faith. Then comes gold, gold itself has no intrinsic value. Its supply is limited (as is bitcoin, a strength of the digital currency), creating a relationship between supply and demand that cannot easily be manipulated. But gold itself has no value per se other than that ascribed to it by humans over time.

Bitcoin is disruptive technology opening new avenues of exchange and enrichment, empowering individuals, and weakening the hold of the state and large corporations, it do have potential even if the price is running on faith and supply and demand. It can sustain its value.

That is not true. Money has intrinsic value because it is backed by debt, while debt is backed by imovable or movable property. In the past, monetary system was based on a gold standard. Today, monetary system is based on a property standard.

[paul00]

It is millenial and bitcoin is part of it where another alternative way of investment has been created. We should not compare it in banks where we use to have the actual cash on our side which will be deposited to our bank accounts. I think it's better to align it with stocks. Maybe it is also an empty numbers for some but it has its own values where we can convert it. Bitcoin has its own terms and policy and so far i have not heard of anyone yet who has been denied for it bitcoin value once converted or encashed to authorized partners.

[hendra147]

i doubt bank have the money enough to all people, if all people withdraw his money from bank to cash, im sure bank didnt have money to pay all customer, for me the number balance in bank is just number no more.

[RelBunny]

Right, Bitcoin doesn't have any "intrinsic value", but so does the $1 bill. In truth, almost nothing in the world of trading and money has “intrinsic value.” Money has only the value that is ascribed to it over time. Fiat currency, issued by nations, has always faced distrust from skeptics who say it is backed only a government’s good faith. Then comes gold, gold itself has no intrinsic value. Its supply is limited (as is bitcoin, a strength of the digital currency), creating a relationship between supply and demand that cannot easily be manipulated. But gold itself has no value per se other than that ascribed to it by humans over time.

Bitcoin is disruptive technology opening new avenues of exchange and enrichment, empowering individuals, and weakening the hold of the state and large corporations, it do have potential even if the price is running on faith and supply and demand. It can sustain its value.

That is not true. Money has intrinsic value because it is backed by debt, while debt is backed by imovable or movable property. In the past, monetary system was based on a gold standard. Today, monetary system is based on a property standard.

You used one word right, and i made it bold for you. Today.
What you lack of is vision of the (very near) future. And lack of understanding what bitcoin actually is and how it works.
And you have delusions about currently used money.

And you're just repeating yourself constantly without really discussing anything, referring only to the points where you can basically copy-paste what you already said.

So yes, congratulations, you are officialy a troll on some forum.

[krishnapramod]

You have been quite repetitive about numbers. In simple words, Bitcoin is mathematical/cryptographical representation of money, programmable money. As far its value is concerned, it is again quite simple, utility, Bitcoin has all the attributes of money, be it store of value, unit of account, and medium of exchange. Yeah right now Bitcoin isn't a reliable medium of exchange, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be. To make it more simple, as with any currency, Bitcoins value comes from its perceived value, people who use it and think it's valuable.

Yeah, Fiat money is debt and debt is Fiat. Backed by debt and value generated by enforcement. Money is created when loans are issued and debts incurred; money is extinguished when loans are repaid.

If all the bank loans were paid up, no one would have a bank depo­sit, and there would not be a dol­lar of cur­rency or coin in cir­cu­la­tion. This is a stag­ger­ing thought. We are com­pletely depen­dent on the com­mer­cial banks for our money. Someone has to bor­row every dol­lar we have in cir­cu­la­tion, cash or cre­dit. If the banks create ample syn­the­tic money, we are pro­s­per­ous; if not, we starve. We are abso­lutely with­out a per­manent mone­tary sys­tem.  When one gets a com­plete grasp upon the pic­ture, the tra­gic absur­dity of our hope­less posi­tion is almost in­cred­ible. - Robert H. Hem­phill

[eternalgloom]

And what can you do with your fiat money (Dollars, Euros, etc.) if noone accepts it anymore because too much of it was printed and now noone wants the paper anymore? How much Bitcoins can you print? Where is the inflation, in fiat or in Bitcoins?

It's all a question of trust. As long as people (not all of course) trust in bitcoin and are willing to pay for it, there is a worth of the coins. Same goes for fiat and all currencies and assets.

I already answered this. Since Dollars are backed by debt, and debt is backed by collateral of specified immovable or movable property, if nobody wants to accept dollars those who recieved the loans are forced to accept them since otherwise they would not be able to repay their debts, a legal case would be established against them, and the bank would take their property. No such legal obligations are behind Bitcoins as the software that creates them is not a legal entity which can have legal rights and obligations. That's why, on their own, Bitcoins are completely useless.

But fiat currency can also lose almost all value though, maybe it's unlikely that the Dollar or Euro would, but there are other examples of currencies losing all value.

Just take a look at Venezuela or Zimbabwe, their currency lost pretty much all value. I don't know what that meant for debts in those currencies.

[Carmen01]

Unlike numbers on a bank account, which represent legal liability of the bank and are backed by the collateral of specified real estate or other debt instrument that a borrower offers as a way for a bank to secure the loan, the numbers on a bitcoin address are completely void of any legal liability since software that creates them is not a legal entity which can have legal rights and obligations.

So basically, people are paying huge amounts of money to get some empty numbers which are then recorded in a public ledger on the internet. If nobody wants to accept these numbers in exchange for dollars, goods or services, they are as useless as a random number that I write on a piece of paper.

On the other hand, since dollars in a bank account are bank's liability, if nobody wants to accept dollars in exchange for goods and services, they will be settled over time through the legal system by transferring real assets from those who have received loans from the bank, since loans are secured by the collateral of specified immovable or movable property and they represent bank's assets. This comes from the fact that obligation to repay the debt would not vanish if nobody wants to accept dollars. Since the borrower received real assets for its dollars, in the absence of dollars the borrower's debt must also be settled by real assets. Alternatively, since dollars that are in circulation were exchanged for goods and services by some borrower and since he is obligated to repay his debt in dollars, if nobody wants to accept dollars the borrower is the one who is forced to accept them in exchange for goods and services otherwise he is unable to settle his obligation to the bank. Besides being backed by borrower's collateral, dollars are also backed by banks' capital and the ability to pay taxes. As we can see, dollars on their own, have real measurable value, just like goods or services.

Bitcoins on the other hand, don't have value on their own, and if nobody wants to accept them in exchange for dollars, goods or services, no legal action can be taken by their 'owners' to get some kind of value out of them. As such, Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet, which means that people are exchanging real values for literally nothing.

legal power yes but not no value read here in forum for your knowledge more about bitcoin because this is so much good like you say power i think bitcoin is everything here you can ask to help you and learn by other ideas to read only with no pay in terms of earnings and etc

[jc89]

Bitcoins on the other hand, don't have value on their own, and if nobody wants to accept them in exchange for dollars, goods or services, no legal action can be taken by their 'owners' to get some kind of value out of them. As such, Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet, which means that people are exchanging real values for literally nothing.

If my analysis is correct, I think that the same can be said to money. If nobody wants to accept them they are just pieces of paper with numbers, places and faces of known person in them. Everything in this world can lose its value if no one acknowledge it and that includes money not just bitcoin. We know that btc is valueless when it started but then people started realizing its value thus making it valuable to people like me. I just hope you're not one of those people who speak rudely of btc then later on purchased and invested in it.

[Hagmonar]

I think there is no deferent for fiat and butcoins they are they same that there is a value for people but if you realy understand bitcoin then you can say that bitcoin is superior specialy in securety and and fastest transaction

[el kaka22]

I think it's the same with cash, if no one wants to use it then the money is the same as paper can be worthless. different again with gold because gold is no price is not the same as cash. while the price of money in clay from his nominal writing.

In fact it is depending on the interest of the people. some time when we take interest in some thing its value start  increasing, but when we ignore it then it also lose it value, and i think we have very good examples from our daily life. For example if we study Doge it was in its peak position when people were taking interest in it, but later one due to lack of the interest of the people Doge price start decreasing and now it is about to die.

the first thing that you said i agree with that, its how the people accept it, whose speculations that OP raises are already been ask before hand, we are now in the stage where peoples interest are already been gathered the value of this great investment  already been supported by silent businesses and yet a lots of establishment are also setting their business integrating with btc.

Any object or idea that is supported by the common public will gain power with time and once this phenomenon takes place, no matter how hard a haters try to kill that, it won't disappear.
Bitcoin is in power now and many people are completely depending upon bitcoin. It also has no owner due to its decentralized nature so it will live a life equal to the planet's remaining life.

[Jake052478]

Unlike numbers on a bank account, which represent legal liability of the bank and are backed by the collateral of specified real estate or other debt instrument that a borrower offers as a way for a bank to secure the loan, the numbers on a bitcoin address are completely void of any legal liability since software that creates them is not a legal entity which can have legal rights and obligations.

So basically, people are paying huge amounts of money to get some empty numbers which are then recorded in a public ledger on the internet. If nobody wants to accept these numbers in exchange for dollars, goods or services, they are as useless as a random number that I write on a piece of paper.

On the other hand, since dollars in a bank account are bank's liability, if nobody wants to accept dollars in exchange for goods and services, they will be settled over time through the legal system by transferring real assets from those who have received loans from the bank, since loans are secured by the collateral of specified immovable or movable property and they represent bank's assets. This comes from the fact that obligation to repay the debt would not vanish if nobody wants to accept dollars. Since the borrower received real assets for its dollars, in the absence of dollars the borrower's debt must also be settled by real assets. Alternatively, since dollars that are in circulation were exchanged for goods and services by some borrower and since he is obligated to repay his debt in dollars, if nobody wants to accept dollars the borrower is the one who is forced to accept them in exchange for goods and services otherwise he is unable to settle his obligation to the bank. Besides being backed by borrower's collateral, dollars are also backed by banks' capital and the ability to pay taxes. As we can see, dollars on their own, have real measurable value, just like goods or services.

Bitcoins on the other hand, don't have value on their own, and if nobody wants to accept them in exchange for dollars, goods or services, no legal action can be taken by their 'owners' to get some kind of value out of them. As such, Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet, which means that people are exchanging real values for literally nothing.

Actually, this is the reason why China had to stop the exchange of ICO in their country.  The lack of legal basis is the main reason.  Korea is following through.  Maybe because, it is hard to imposed tax on the transaction being made with this digital currency.  Measuring it is also impossible because there are no regulations as to the usage of it.  I don't know, but for as long as it has not been resolved, this problem  will eventually caught itself in limbo.  Unless, lawmakers will try to regulated specially the problem of how to taxed cryptocurrency.

[atc1-REAL]

While what you say was true at a point, say during 2009-11, now its market value will continue to keep it running as perceived value is a big thing in the market. And some countries have started to accept its value as a defacto asset, so that will further legitimize this system.

[miyaka26]

Bitcoin is literally the internet of money, don't presume that it has no value or just an empty coin over the internet network because it has no physical manifestation or you cannot touch it in your own bare hands, dollars, gold and any other forms of money has no value at all if there is no demand of it, precious metal is expensive because it lacks supply.

[dothebeats]

Geez, even those numbers on your bank account don't really mean anything, but because the government shoves this shit into our asses, we can't do anything but agree that these papers do have value.

Let's get back to your logic: if someone doesn't agree that this piece of paper and numbers on my bank account has value, can I do something about it? No. Honestly we all just believe that these numbers, papers and nickel/brass/whatever carry value and legal liability because the government told us so. I mean, I can make my own money out of paper, draw it with crayons and let people believe that it's worth something, right? As long as someone agrees with me, my piece of paper will carry value.

Everything in this world really is worthless at start, but because groups of people keep on agreeing that something is worth X, it becomes valuable and carries value, same as bitcoins, dollar, gold, oil and whatnot.

[Juggy777]

Unlike numbers on a bank account, which represent legal liability of the bank and are backed by the collateral of specified real estate or other debt instrument that a borrower offers as a way for a bank to secure the loan, the numbers on a bitcoin address are completely void of any legal liability since software that creates them is not a legal entity which can have legal rights and obligations.

So basically, people are paying huge amounts of money to get some empty numbers which are then recorded in a public ledger on the internet. If nobody wants to accept these numbers in exchange for dollars, goods or services, they are as useless as a random number that I write on a piece of paper.

On the other hand, since dollars in a bank account are bank's liability, if nobody wants to accept dollars in exchange for goods and services, they will be settled over time through the legal system by transferring real assets from those who have received loans from the bank, since loans are secured by the collateral of specified immovable or movable property and they represent bank's assets. This comes from the fact that obligation to repay the debt would not vanish if nobody wants to accept dollars. Since the borrower received real assets for its dollars, in the absence of dollars the borrower's debt must also be settled by real assets. Alternatively, since dollars that are in circulation were exchanged for goods and services by some borrower and since he is obligated to repay his debt in dollars, if nobody wants to accept dollars the borrower is the one who is forced to accept them in exchange for goods and services otherwise he is unable to settle his obligation to the bank. Besides being backed by borrower's collateral, dollars are also backed by banks' capital and the ability to pay taxes. As we can see, dollars on their own, have real measurable value, just like goods or services.

Bitcoins on the other hand, don't have value on their own, and if nobody wants to accept them in exchange for dollars, goods or services, no legal action can be taken by their 'owners' to get some kind of value out of them. As such, Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet, which means that people are exchanging real values for literally nothing.

How I wish this forum could have a option Bitcoin lover or hater, and hater immediately banned from this forum, this newbie comes here and cribs about Bitcoins, says number dont mean anything, we'll go to preev.com maybe your eyes will poop out and I literally mean poop. As far your banks, they are running scared, and if you can't see it, then you're dumb. I would advise you to grow up, and buy some Bitcoin, maybe you'll improve your knowledge.

[ivrynx]

first of all, the internet if you really take a look at it, even your computer, your phones, all are made up of 1s and 0s, basically they're numbers, only man gives them value. the paper notes your central banks print out, they're made out of numbers, in the case of gold,however, man gave it value for some reason, that it is a precious metal. i think we need to go back to history and check how money works and how it started, first there was the barter exchange, no physical money money was used, you only trade in goods and services, then there came, gold coins, since it is a precious metal,why not use it for exchange of goods and services, so the more gold you have back them, the more buying power you have, then came silver coins, it is also the same with gold, then we started to print out i.o.u.s since gold is heavy to carry around, we use i.o.u.s in replacement of gold, and that gold is being deposited in banks, in turn it became paper notes, similar to the money use today, but it is being back up by gold, if you have money then, it means you have gold under your name, then they took the paper notes, out of the gold standard and it became petrodollar, which is fiat today, in a sense, it doesn't have any value since it is not being backed up by any precious metal, the value is just rising, depending on the oil trade, and we all know that the price of oil can be manipulated, however for bitcoin, since it follows the law of supply and demand, it has value, since it is being considered not just as currency but as an asset, we might see a lot of characters during transactions, but it is just like the receipt we see on groceries. bitcoin also has value because it has its own buying power and as of now it is being valued around 4000 usd. bitcoin being treated as an asset, also separates it from fiat, since fiat, is not an asset it is just a currency, something that is being used only for transaction.

[valentin68]

Maybe bitcoin are empty numbers on the internet but at least they have some value. This is what makes the bitcoin good, their value, they are acccepted for good money by almost every country in the world. Also there are some western countries that accept them legally. It is good that they are empty numbers, you do not have to print paper or wahtsoever, they can be sent easely through the internet to everyone to pay for what you want.

[redhondaxrm125]

Umm, op has little valid points, but on most of what he said, I disagree. Yes, bitcoin is something that satoshi made, and people saw then was sold with a certain price, so came its value, then it got a bit more harder to get day after day, weeks, months, then years so it got a bit more expensive. Just like gold, people saw it, liked it, and sold it to someone who liked it also, then boom. Came its value. So bitcoin is not something that has no value. Hope you get this.

[cpfreeplz]

Lol I feel like you maybe should have written this back in 2012 or something. You're way too uneducated and way too late to be so uneducated. Get caught up before you make yourself look even more stupid.

"Screw email. If the post office doesn't accept it then I'm not going to trust it." Ignoramus.

[imteaz]

This is what i thought back in 2015, that Bitcoin is just an intangible coin, circulating online without any protection or guidance. But once i study and know more about it, i figured it out it is way to go for future. One thing i want to say, even though you can't see it and can;'t feel it doesn't mean it worth nothing

[kotajikikox]

what do you mean legal power bitcoin in many country have a legal power as currency government give bitcoin value to excahnge in fiat money and also empty number or series number do you looking for bitcoin like the series from the fiat money bitcoin are came from the volatile crypto currency so no need to use a number for the control of bitcoin as currency the important of this bitcoin give help to the economy to each nation accepted as currency.

[Astrilian]

The Internet itself as everything with computers is just empty numbers of ones and zeros so of course this is the case for bitcoins and everything else

[gribble]

The OP explain about the fiat money that there's no relationship with bitcoins, he is believe in the banks power and the government that control the fiat money, even after they take the value of money due to inflation in fiat, he still said bitcoins were just empty numbers on the internet without any value or legal power, the big reason many people who invested into bitcoins due to system of fiat money was failed.

[Snaic]

If someone thinks that bitcoin is just empty numbers recorded in a public book on the Internet, he has the right to think so. No one forces him to buy bitcoins or other crypto currency. He also has the right to pass by the freedoms and amenities that the crypto currency provides. This is a private matter for everyone.

[Koadharber]

The OP explain about the fiat money that there's no relationship with bitcoins, he is believe in the banks power and the government that control the fiat money, even after they take the value of money due to inflation in fiat, he still said bitcoins were just empty numbers on the internet without any value or legal power, the big reason many people who invested into bitcoins due to system of fiat money was failed.

Not at all. People didnt really invest to bitcoin because they saw fiat money system was a fail.Im sure it would really be on other purpose which is on making money not totally on its innovation.I might be wrong but these are just my opinion and perception. Fiat system would still remain no matter what since its been backed by government always and we cant do anything about it.Just let bitcoin stand on his own field.

[erickkyut]

That is why it is called a digital currency! If Bitcoin is just a number with no value, how come you can use it to buy items online? Why can you exchange it into fiat? Value is not about legality! It is about acceptance. Bitcoin is valuable because people are willing to accept it and use it for online transactions. Even the latest mobile phone can lose their value after a few years because people lose interest on it due to the new models of mobile phones.

[Franky00]

Bitcoin can not be touched, but with the help of it you can earn very well and buy everything you need. It's just a digital currency of the future to which many are not yet accustomed.

[yishak]

The same thing can be said for dollars and other paper moneys , they don't have actual values peoples are the one who make these paper moneys have value when they agree that a paper with a $1 sign on it can buy you a cup of coffee. So don't just go around saying bitcoins are worthless numbers like that!

[Tyrantt]

Gold is just a shiny mineral that someone gave value to for some reason out there. That's your argument..

[cripperz]

The value of Bitcoin is inherent in the mining cost, the electricity and time is takes to mine a Bitcoin.

[Bezobraznike]

The value of Bitcoin is inherent in the mining cost, the electricity and time is takes to mine a Bitcoin.

   And in demand, if many people wish to have bitcoin they need to buy it from miners, and if many
people wish to have it than demand is going up and moving the price up, cause supply stays the same
and over time supply will go down, with every next halving.
   Bitcoins are not just empty numbers on the internet, if that is true then it would be easy to copy
them, multiply them like you wish, and that could do everyone with little knowledge. Value comes from
all that Cripperz said already and demand from other people, legal power is in bitcoin technology.
   This kind of topics can not change what we think and feel about bitcoin, they can just unite us more,
that is what I see in this comments, most of us think in the same way.

[bncbnc]

If someone thinks that bitcoin is just empty numbers recorded in a public book on the Internet, he has the right to think so. No one forces him to buy bitcoins or other crypto currency. He also has the right to pass by the freedoms and amenities that the crypto currency provides. This is a private matter for everyone.

in fact those people who do not have any idea about bitcoin, those who do not use it yet, they can think so, but i am sure that those who have little experience about bitcoin they will never think that bitcoin is just an empty numbers of internet, they know the importance and value of bitcoin and i am sure that very soon the other people will also realize the importance of bitcoin which is in fact the need of the time and in modern time we can expect that people will depend on bitcoin for everything.

[krigger]

Bitcoin is not just empty numbers on the internet. Tell that to people who's bank accounts are not empty thanks to BTC.

[Agamemnus]

Coding is a language and people use language to express things, like value. Not even can governments stop your right to free speech. Well they could before, but not anymore with cryptocurrencies;)

[gribble]

The OP explain about the fiat money that there's no relationship with bitcoins, he is believe in the banks power and the government that control the fiat money, even after they take the value of money due to inflation in fiat, he still said bitcoins were just empty numbers on the internet without any value or legal power, the big reason many people who invested into bitcoins due to system of fiat money was failed.

Not at all. People didnt really invest to bitcoin because they saw fiat money system was a fail.Im sure it would really be on other purpose which is on making money not totally on its innovation.I might be wrong but these are just my opinion and perception. Fiat system would still remain no matter what since its been backed by government always and we cant do anything about it.Just let bitcoin stand on his own field.

You are right, the purpose people invested in bitcoins due to they want make money in bitcoins, it is the beautiful of digital currency can be used as currency and instrument of investment, that is mean there's something wrong with fiat money, why the people choose bitcoins as instrument of investment due to the main weaknesses of fiat money, the system of fiat money was failed.

[AjithBtc]

The thread states it to be a mere number, which is acceptable. When it comes to the interlinked technology nothing can indicate this to be a powerless asset. In terms of legal power, bitcoin is gaining strength little by little. This might make a large scale changes when more countries adopt similar to Japan.

[happyme1818]

It looks like you didn't do your homework before posting here in the forum. Maybe you should ask The owners of big companies like Microsoft why they invest their money with $0 value. You may also ask Jack Ma why he also invest on a so called virtual currency.

[silent17]

I think the creator of this thread is really stupid or something.
If bitcoin really doesn't have any value, then what do you call the load on the mobile phone. it's also an electric token that is provided by the mobile company.
or paypal perhaps, why do people even use this kind of "E" money if they don't have any value?
Bitcoin is just like a money that we use online to buy stuff. It's like the international money nowadays because almost all countries accept it.
would you think your what you called dollar can be accepted in other countries local store? of course not, but now some of the local here in our country accepts it now.

[darklus123]

Putting US dollars as the bases of the legal lliability in this society  is a pretty poor thing. Well actually  in the first place Us dollars has no value at all it is just the government tries to assume that it still has. Bitcoin is a whole different  story and it can still be valuable even if there is no point of exchange  in the local currencies

[Yakamoto]

Unlike numbers on a bank account, which represent legal liability of the bank and are backed by the collateral of specified real estate or other debt instrument that a borrower offers as a way for a bank to secure the loan, the numbers on a bitcoin address are completely void of any legal liability since software that creates them is not a legal entity which can have legal rights and obligations.

So basically, people are paying huge amounts of money to get some empty numbers which are then recorded in a public ledger on the internet. If nobody wants to accept these numbers in exchange for dollars, goods or services, they are as useless as a random number that I write on a piece of paper.

On the other hand, since dollars in a bank account are bank's liability, if nobody wants to accept dollars in exchange for goods and services, they will be settled over time through the legal system by transferring real assets from those who have received loans from the bank, since loans are secured by the collateral of specified immovable or movable property and they represent bank's assets. This comes from the fact that obligation to repay the debt would not vanish if nobody wants to accept dollars. Since the borrower received real assets for its dollars, in the absence of dollars the borrower's debt must also be settled by real assets. Alternatively, since dollars that are in circulation were exchanged for goods and services by some borrower and since he is obligated to repay his debt in dollars, if nobody wants to accept dollars the borrower is the one who is forced to accept them in exchange for goods and services otherwise he is unable to settle his obligation to the bank. Besides being backed by borrower's collateral, dollars are also backed by banks' capital and the ability to pay taxes. As we can see, dollars on their own, have real measurable value, just like goods or services.

Bitcoins on the other hand, don't have value on their own, and if nobody wants to accept them in exchange for dollars, goods or services, no legal action can be taken by their 'owners' to get some kind of value out of them. As such, Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet, which means that people are exchanging real values for literally nothing.

Well, so far the crypto economy is saying that there is a lot of value in Bitcoin, a lot of people are saying there's value in Bitcoin, sure there's a chance in the future that Bitcoin will have no value because people simply don't want to accept it as a means of transferring value, but the same thing goes for any precious metal. It goes for foreign currencies in countries. It's not like this is something that is exclusive to Bitcoin, it is a very, very small piece of the pie in the entire financial scheme that is global economics.

[Shamie1002]

You prefer legality, liable and valuable as something that is tangible and seeable by many. I can't tell if you are a real citizen of any country not knowing how a currency is valued. If you can't understand the essence of bitcoins ( which has more advantages than fiat ) . I suggest that you try to see its value by comparing to other currencies, learning its differences and mostly how it acts and valued as a currency itself with its characteristics as an asset. Functions matter. You need to read and experience more.

[ruskytailz02]

The people also makes it have value
The technology of coin is decentralize making faster transaction in the whole world.. popularity and users makes these coins have value over time..
It depends on how people have interest on it and lots of investors whk makes it more and more popular stronger and valuable....
The supply and demand also affects this
If the people stops using it the coins value will loose but it will be stay there

[Kiweikoo]

Bitcoins on the other hand, don't have value on their own, and if nobody wants to accept them in exchange for dollars, goods or services, no legal action can be taken by their 'owners' to get some kind of value out of them. As such, Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet, which means that people are exchanging real values for literally nothing.

If my analysis is correct, I think that the same can be said to money. If nobody wants to accept them they are just pieces of paper with numbers, places and faces of known person in them. Everything in this world can lose its value if no one acknowledge it and that includes money not just bitcoin. We know that btc is valueless when it started but then people started realizing its value thus making it valuable to people like me. I just hope you're not one of those people who speak rudely of btc then later on purchased and invested in it.

The simple and straight answer to this is bitcoin is not defined by an individual and those who are its hatter thinks that it is just a no ask to those who are in it and living a gorgeous life, they will tell you how valuable it is and how it works and give the most amazing profits of life and those who don’t know about it when they will know about it they will completely attracted to it.

[HasHe]

US dollars are just a piece of paper printed and being sent in to circulation.USD is not backed by gold.But miners spend electricity and use ASIC miners to generate new bitcoins.So,bitcoin has some intrinsic
 value.

USD could be even devalued by the US government just as it was done in india by demonitization.But Bitcoin could not be devalued by any one any time.It is for this feature,thousands of people keep trust on bitcoin and buy them.

Hope,you would understand that bitcoin is not just empty number.It is the true form of currency and it deserves to be considered as the true currency as it is free from inflation.

[qwertyup23]

I beg to disagree. Like fiat money, it holds no value since it's only a piece of printed paper. What realized its value is that, the government sees and accepts it as the main currency circulating the country, thus giving it value. Paper momey can be no different from a piece of wood if everyone accepts and sees it as the main medium of exchange. For bitcoins, what makes it very valuable is it's decentralized and volatile nature, making it the perfect instrument for investing. It holds a significant amount of mometary value when converted to fiat and even the government of other countries see it as a threat.

[Voice-Of-Reason]

Unlike numbers on a bank account, which represent legal liability of the bank and are backed by the collateral of specified real estate or other debt instrument that a borrower offers as a way for a bank to secure the loan, the numbers on a bitcoin address are completely void of any legal liability since software that creates them is not a legal entity which can have legal rights and obligations.

So basically, people are paying huge amounts of money to get some empty numbers which are then recorded in a public ledger on the internet. If nobody wants to accept these numbers in exchange for dollars, goods or services, they are as useless as a random number that I write on a piece of paper.

On the other hand, since dollars in a bank account are bank's liability, if nobody wants to accept dollars in exchange for goods and services, they will be settled over time through the legal system by transferring real assets from those who have received loans from the bank, since loans are secured by the collateral of specified immovable or movable property and they represent bank's assets. This comes from the fact that obligation to repay the debt would not vanish if nobody wants to accept dollars. Since the borrower received real assets for its dollars, in the absence of dollars the borrower's debt must also be settled by real assets. Alternatively, since dollars that are in circulation were exchanged for goods and services by some borrower and since he is obligated to repay his debt in dollars, if nobody wants to accept dollars the borrower is the one who is forced to accept them in exchange for goods and services otherwise he is unable to settle his obligation to the bank. Besides being backed by borrower's collateral, dollars are also backed by banks' capital and the ability to pay taxes. As we can see, dollars on their own, have real measurable value, just like goods or services.

Bitcoins on the other hand, don't have value on their own, and if nobody wants to accept them in exchange for dollars, goods or services, no legal action can be taken by their 'owners' to get some kind of value out of them. As such, Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet, which means that people are exchanging real values for literally nothing.

You should check something that happened recently, around 2008, some bubble exploded and banks collapsed and the world went into a financial crisis...

[willnotwas]

Thank you for taking the time to come to this forum and explain to all of us your vast lack of knowledge about how bitcoin works, and why it has value.

Now that you've established your knowledge baseline, perhaps you'll spend some time here learning a bit about it so that you don't make the same mistake in the future.

So, if nobody wants to accept Bitcoins in exchange for dollars, goods or services, what can you do with them?

what if nobody want or accept Dollars in their store or service or something like that.
what will happen ?
do you even understand how it works ?
if it's just an empty numbers on internet,why many people use Paypal,Neteller or something like that before ?
they're exchanging their Fiat to that crap or so called 'empty numbers' to pay their bills or buy something.

to make it simplier and understandable for you.
bring your FIAT (Dollars,because you mentioned it above),and spend it in ASEAN countries.
use it directly and buy something in there,
can you do it without exchange it ?
it's all about demand from the users or peoples.

there's no what if what if.

As for PayPal, it has a clear legal status.

And on the US territory you can not refuse to accept dollars. Otherwise, force will be applied to you (they will put you in prison).

Therefore, in fact fsurfer is right.

[RodeoX]

Unlike numbers on a bank account, which represent legal ...

Hi welcome to bitcoin. You must be the new guy.

[DoublerHunter]

Bitcoin have its own value and those who gave bitcoin a value are the people who uses it and believe that bitcoin is worth something special so i think that thinking about bitcoin for being a worthless thing in the internet and it doesn't have any value or legal power is a complete bluff because bitcoin worth a lot and it has a legal power in some countries and bitcoin is still in the phase of getting started to get noticed and legalize.

[RodeoX]

And on the US territory you can not refuse to accept dollars. Otherwise, force will be applied to you (they will put you in prison).

Therefore, in fact fsurfer is right.

That is complete nonsense. 

[shinkosmos]

dude ,if you don't use it , someone will use it ... even me from cameroon 

[djselery]

I don't see that your idea makes any sense. Bitcoin isn't just numbers, it is instead a real currency having real and high value, even if you can't see this. Bitcoin is a digital currency, but it is used and available worldwide and accepted in so many marketplaces around the world as a payment method. Also its price actually is above 4800$ which is higher than Gold, for example.

[rb26]

So basically, people are paying huge amounts of money to get some empty numbers which are then recorded in a public ledger on the internet. If nobody wants to accept these numbers in exchange for dollars, goods or services, they are as useless as a random number that I write on a piece of paper.

This is also applicable for Fiat. IF no one wants to accept dollar, for instance, then dollar is worthless. Fiat gained value then because it is backed with gold, and now no currency is being backed by a precious stone or whatsoever anymore. Fiat just have a value because the majority agreed that it has a value. This goes for Bitcoin too. Bitcoin has a value because the people agreed it has a value. So if Bitcoin, as you say, is just some empty numbers, then fiat is also a bunch of empty worthless numbers.

[Andre_Goldman]

The value of any investment that is traded on the open market is whatever someone else is willing to pay for it.  Period.  Same for Stocks.  Same for Bonds.  Same for Fiat Currency.  Same for property.  Same for baseball cards.  Same for Numismatic Coins.  Same for Paintings.  Etc.  Etc.  As long as people are willing to pay for BitCoin, it will have value.

Indeed.
If I buy something from you and you sell it to me, is because something have more value to me than it have to you otherwise no trade would be made. 

Regards to bitcoin and blockchain (distributed database) network

It reminds me a book called

Electronic Exchanges: The Global Transformation from Pits to Bits
https://www.amazon.com/Electronic-Exchanges-Transformation-Elsevier-Financial/dp/0123742528

[RealityClash]

I hope he learnt something from all of this information 

[RodeoX]

Something that a lot of people seem to think is that their dollars are "backed" by something. Since leaving the gold standard that is not the case. It's just a belief in the value that supports it. And even when the gold standard actually backed our money it meant little. Gold nuggets are just shinny rock that people think are valuable.

As far as having no legal power. I don't know what that means? When I make purchases online I only use bitcoin. If the counter-party fails to ship or whatever I have the exact same legal recourse as if I had used dollars.

so is bitcoin just numbers? Maybe that is all that money is? But one valueless bitcoin is worth $4800 valueless dollars, that's a fact.  

[Zenithar]

I don't see that your idea makes any sense. Bitcoin isn't just numbers, it is instead a real currency having real and high value, even if you can't see this. Bitcoin is a digital currency, but it is used and available worldwide and accepted in so many marketplaces around the world as a payment method. Also its price actually is above 4800$ which is higher than Gold, for example.

No I do not agree with this statement that bitcoin are just numbers and nothing more. How can you say that? Don’t you see that unlimited number of people around the globe is investing in bitcoin? Are they mad? And the other proof that bitcoin is a real currency and you can use it anywhere in the world is this forum. How many people are making money in this forum? Why should they pay for just numbers?

[MMA]

dude ,if you don't use it , someone will use it ... even me from cameroon 

Lol, what are you saying dude? Do you think that you are too smart and all the members or investors in the world are fool that they have invested in bitcoin and bought only digits and not currency? Just keep one thing in mind that bitcoin will the only digital currency of the world in the near future and all other currencies fiat or paper currencies will disappear from the screen. I challenge.

[mevmike]

Unlike numbers on a bank account, which represent legal liability of the bank and are backed by the collateral of specified real estate or other debt instrument that a borrower offers as a way for a bank to secure the loan, the numbers on a bitcoin address are completely void of any legal liability since software that creates them is not a legal entity which can have legal rights and obligations.

first of all i want to thank you for sharing your thoughts.
but please if you could further clarify your points by answering my queries.
let me begin with asking you if you have ever researched with what is really happening with fiat currency right now.
if not then i think you should do it first.
.
next question.
what do you think will happen if all of the fiat holders right now will approach banks and ask for the collateral of the paper cash that they are holding?
do you think the banks will be able to give all of the equivalent collateral to every cash holders?
.
don't you think federal reserve is just simply printing money without gold reserves as back up?
meaning the paper cash you are holding right now is just a paper without any real value.
.
hopefully you can provide answers.
have a nice day...

[andthereyou]

I am enjoying this thread. Please continue the discussion and so we can learn more.
BUt I have the feeling that the one who make this post has already higher ranked alt account.
And He just made this account to test the understading of the member of this forum. Anyway this is just a feeling.

[audaciousbeing]

On reading some of the arguments put forward by Op he fail to understand that the fiat that he is supporting is just as a result of force in which bitcoin is against. Today if I want to buy and someone refused my money, it's an offence against the state because that is the legal tender so they are forced to accept even if they dont want and that is the only reason why fiat is ahead of bitcoin if we are all allowed that freedom, I am sure a lot of multinational who are skeptical about bitcoin, would have accepted it even before a lot of us.

[omonuyak]

In the natural world, bitcoin is more valuable than any financial instruments and bitcoin without any legal backing has out perform every other forms of money including the most powerful united states of American dollars. Every other forms of money tremble before it and many bank including IFM has acknowledged the potency of bitcoin and blockchain technology. for your information bitcoin did not need governments legalization to remain potency but the computer's power to remain relevant, this system is transparent and banking system is full of manipulation and fraud.

[Cranidos]

Thank you for taking the time to come to this forum and explain to all of us your vast lack of knowledge about how bitcoin works, and why it has value.

Now that you've established your knowledge baseline, perhaps you'll spend some time here learning a bit about it so that you don't make the same mistake in the future.

So, if nobody wants to accept Bitcoins in exchange for dollars, goods or services, what can you do with them?

Maybe you should try to study or research some basic economics for you to learn how currency works and also the law of supply and demand. You shoul be able to learn first how people use their money,  and why they want it for their lives. If you have a gold bar in your hand today,  how will you use it to buy a thing with a 1 dollar tag price?

[pikebu]

Unlike numbers on a bank account, which represent legal liability of the bank and are backed by the collateral of specified real estate or other debt instrument that a borrower offers as a way for a bank to secure the loan, the numbers on a bitcoin address are completely void of any legal liability since software that creates them is not a legal entity which can have legal rights and obligations.

So basically, people are paying huge amounts of money to get some empty numbers which are then recorded in a public ledger on the internet. If nobody wants to accept these numbers in exchange for dollars, goods or services, they are as useless as a random number that I write on a piece of paper.

On the other hand, since dollars in a bank account are bank's liability, if nobody wants to accept dollars in exchange for goods and services, they will be settled over time through the legal system by transferring real assets from those who have received loans from the bank, since loans are secured by the collateral of specified immovable or movable property and they represent bank's assets. This comes from the fact that obligation to repay the debt would not vanish if nobody wants to accept dollars. Since the borrower received real assets for its dollars, in the absence of dollars the borrower's debt must also be settled by real assets. Alternatively, since dollars that are in circulation were exchanged for goods and services by some borrower and since he is obligated to repay his debt in dollars, if nobody wants to accept dollars the borrower is the one who is forced to accept them in exchange for goods and services otherwise he is unable to settle his obligation to the bank. Besides being backed by borrower's collateral, dollars are also backed by banks' capital and the ability to pay taxes. As we can see, dollars on their own, have real measurable value, just like goods or services.

Bitcoins on the other hand, don't have value on their own, and if nobody wants to accept them in exchange for dollars, goods or services, no legal action can be taken by their 'owners' to get some kind of value out of them. As such, Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet, which means that people are exchanging real values for literally nothing.

I can understand if you are thinking in traditional of investment everything must has rules of the government, everything must has be guaranteed by government, look at this system of centralized of fiat money, what's got from it? We are losing the values of currency in fiat money because of inflation in it, should we are believe in this system? Personal no I didn't believe in it, no government guarantees bitcoins but the community of bitcoins gives it.

[cyberChevan]

Unlike numbers on a bank account, which represent legal liability of the bank and are backed by the collateral of specified real estate or other debt instrument that a borrower offers as a way for a bank to secure the loan, the numbers on a bitcoin address are completely void of any legal liability since software that creates them is not a legal entity which can have legal rights and obligations.

So basically, people are paying huge amounts of money to get some empty numbers which are then recorded in a public ledger on the internet. If nobody wants to accept these numbers in exchange for dollars, goods or services, they are as useless as a random number that I write on a piece of paper.

On the other hand, since dollars in a bank account are bank's liability, if nobody wants to accept dollars in exchange for goods and services, they will be settled over time through the legal system by transferring real assets from those who have received loans from the bank, since loans are secured by the collateral of specified immovable or movable property and they represent bank's assets. This comes from the fact that obligation to repay the debt would not vanish if nobody wants to accept dollars. Since the borrower received real assets for its dollars, in the absence of dollars the borrower's debt must also be settled by real assets. Alternatively, since dollars that are in circulation were exchanged for goods and services by some borrower and since he is obligated to repay his debt in dollars, if nobody wants to accept dollars the borrower is the one who is forced to accept them in exchange for goods and services otherwise he is unable to settle his obligation to the bank. Besides being backed by borrower's collateral, dollars are also backed by banks' capital and the ability to pay taxes. As we can see, dollars on their own, have real measurable value, just like goods or services.

Bitcoins on the other hand, don't have value on their own, and if nobody wants to accept them in exchange for dollars, goods or services, no legal action can be taken by their 'owners' to get some kind of value out of them. As such, Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet, which means that people are exchanging real values for literally nothing.

How I wish this forum could have a option Bitcoin lover or hater, and hater immediately banned from this forum, this newbie comes here and cribs about Bitcoins, says number dont mean anything, we'll go to preev.com maybe your eyes will poop out and I literally mean poop. As far your banks, they are running scared, and if you can't see it, then you're dumb. I would advise you to grow up, and buy some Bitcoin, maybe you'll improve your knowledge.

That is a good idea! I found myself laughing while reading his post. So much problem that keeps whining in his mind I guess so. Maybe a victim of scam or loser in gambling. A bitcoin hater but still he find hisway posting in bitcoin discussion. I think no one in this forum will be interested in ideology. He should try reading posts about bitcoin here first so that he will be able to learn more about bitcoin.

[Shotz]

Legal power maybe.. but you can't really say that they don't have any value.  I just checked coinmarketcap and it seems to me that the value of bitcoin is above $5700.  $5700 is a lot of value per one btc.

[Redanim]

Long time ago maybe it was true, but now you cant say that, many countries have started legalizing bitcoins, through some time bitcoin will be on the same level as other popular and demand internet currencies.

[cryptoivan85]

Bitcoins are empty numbers on the internet, like gold is just a metal

Empty numbers, a shiny piece of metal, what's the difference? I have no use for any of them

So what's your point?

[BitcoinPC]

Unlike numbers on a bank account, which represent legal liability of the bank and are backed by the collateral of specified real estate or other debt instrument that a borrower offers as a way for a bank to secure the loan, the numbers on a bitcoin address are completely void of any legal liability since software that creates them is not a legal entity which can have legal rights and obligations.

So basically, people are paying huge amounts of money to get some empty numbers which are then recorded in a public ledger on the internet. If nobody wants to accept these numbers in exchange for dollars, goods or services, they are as useless as a random number that I write on a piece of paper.

On the other hand, since dollars in a bank account are bank's liability, if nobody wants to accept dollars in exchange for goods and services, they will be settled over time through the legal system by transferring real assets from those who have received loans from the bank, since loans are secured by the collateral of specified immovable or movable property and they represent bank's assets. This comes from the fact that obligation to repay the debt would not vanish if nobody wants to accept dollars. Since the borrower received real assets for its dollars, in the absence of dollars the borrower's debt must also be settled by real assets. Alternatively, since dollars that are in circulation were exchanged for goods and services by some borrower and since he is obligated to repay his debt in dollars, if nobody wants to accept dollars the borrower is the one who is forced to accept them in exchange for goods and services otherwise he is unable to settle his obligation to the bank. Besides being backed by borrower's collateral, dollars are also backed by banks' capital and the ability to pay taxes. As we can see, dollars on their own, have real measurable value, just like goods or services.

Bitcoins on the other hand, don't have value on their own, and if nobody wants to accept them in exchange for dollars, goods or services, no legal action can be taken by their 'owners' to get some kind of value out of them. As such, Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet, which means that people are exchanging real values for literally nothing.

Seems you're the laziest guy in the world with lack of knowledge. A guy who can't use their hands to learn about bitcoins and start posting against bitcoins. You even don't know how bitcoins works how you can say its just a number ?

[BitcoinPC]

What you think all the members that belongs to this community are dump ? People are running their business on bitcoins . So you will say that Paper cash is just a Paper with printed value on it. Its not that simple as it is backup by gold and lot of regulations.

[imjustp]

Unlike numbers on a bank account, which represent legal liability of the bank and are backed by the collateral of specified real estate or other debt instrument that a borrower offers as a way for a bank to secure the loan, the numbers on a bitcoin address are completely void of any legal liability since software that creates them is not a legal entity which can have legal rights and obligations.

So basically, people are paying huge amounts of money to get some empty numbers which are then recorded in a public ledger on the internet. If nobody wants to accept these numbers in exchange for dollars, goods or services, they are as useless as a random number that I write on a piece of paper.

On the other hand, since dollars in a bank account are bank's liability, if nobody wants to accept dollars in exchange for goods and services, they will be settled over time through the legal system by transferring real assets from those who have received loans from the bank, since loans are secured by the collateral of specified immovable or movable property and they represent bank's assets. This comes from the fact that obligation to repay the debt would not vanish if nobody wants to accept dollars. Since the borrower received real assets for its dollars, in the absence of dollars the borrower's debt must also be settled by real assets. Alternatively, since dollars that are in circulation were exchanged for goods and services by some borrower and since he is obligated to repay his debt in dollars, if nobody wants to accept dollars the borrower is the one who is forced to accept them in exchange for goods and services otherwise he is unable to settle his obligation to the bank. Besides being backed by borrower's collateral, dollars are also backed by banks' capital and the ability to pay taxes. As we can see, dollars on their own, have real measurable value, just like goods or services.

Bitcoins on the other hand, don't have value on their own, and if nobody wants to accept them in exchange for dollars, goods or services, no legal action can be taken by their 'owners' to get some kind of value out of them. As such, Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet, which means that people are exchanging real values for literally nothing.

I think you'll find that FIAT currency is exactly what you explain with your post. Since all countries decided to move away from the gold standard pretty much every currency is realistically worthless. As the bank prints more of your currency (dollars) the value of it goes down. In the UK this is a massive problem as, in the past ten or so years, pretty much everything we NEED to LIVE has doubled in price while wages have been kept stagnent leaving people in a position where they earn just enough to keep a roof on their head and feed their fridge.

Yes, bitcoin is just numbers on a screen, but so is FIAT currency. Do you think that there are enough physical dollars in circulation to pay back all the debts which are owed? If you do you really need to do more research. It's the sole reason America is in a terrible state behind the scenes, owing TRILLIONS to China, a bill it cannot pay. If many companies like Apple and Google decided they want all their value to be made into cash there would be a HUGE problem for the US.

Currently there is roughly $3.8 trillion dollars in circulation while the US debt is over $20 trillion. You do the maths.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/index.html

[fxsurfer]

I think you'll find that FIAT currency is exactly what you explain with your post. Since all countries decided to move away from the gold standard pretty much every currency is realistically worthless.

You must educate yourself about the basics of banking system because this statement of yours shows that you have utterly no clue about how the accounting mechanics of bank credit creation works.

When financial corporation, such as a bank, grants a loan to a customer, and thus creates new money, the loan contract is shown as an increase in assets: the bank now has an additional claim on debtors — this is the borrower's legal obligation to repay the loan (which is secured by the collateral of specified movable or immovable property). But, together with the increase in assets, the newly created money appears as a positive entry on the liability side of the bank's balance sheet. IOWs, whenever some firm or person receives the newly created money from the borrower's bank account, the value of this money comes from the fact that it represents the bank's legal liability which is backed by borrower's legal obligation to repay the loan. So, when banks create money, this money is backed by either - legally enforceable obligation of borrowers to repay their loans or the collateral of specified movable or immovable property that a borrower offers as a way for a bank to secure the loan.

That is why, if a situation occurs where nobody wants to accept fiat money in exchange for goods and services, those who received the loans are legally forced to accept it, otherwise they would be unable to settle their obligations to the bank and a legal action would be taken against them or the bank would seize the collateral to recoup its losses. Additionally, the value of fiat money comes from the fact that it is legal tender for all debts, public and private, which is especially important today when countries have high tax-to-GDP ratio.

So saying that fiat money is worthless, simply shows the lack of understanding of how legal, monetary and banking system work.

The only thing which is entirely worthless is Bitcoin. Since Bitcoin is neither legal tender nor backed by any legally enforceable obligation, if a situation occurs where nobody wants to accept Bitcoins in exchange for fiat, goods or services, they can neither, be used to pay taxes nor any legal action can be taken by their owners to get some kind of value out of them. That is why Bitcoin is nothing but a modern ponzi scheme, a collection of empty numbers on the internet that will collapse just as all other ponzi schemes have collapsed.